A Month Since I Dropped The Bomb

[danreidbarmi]

Sorry about the length of this one, my friends. This is a first draft of the first chapter of the second section of my book in progress, I Know You, You Know Me.


It’s hard to believe that it has only been one month since I dropped the bomb that, in an instant, blew my marriage to bits. The whole landscape changed in the explosion of my confession. I exited the closet, pulled the pin and tossed my grenade with a teary-eyed flourish, assuming that my newfound honesty would set me free to live openly and proudly as a bisexual man. Unfortunately, that one, long-overdue truth could not obliterate all the lies (spoken and un-) that I had been living. So, as it turns out, my coming out was not really about revealing my heretofore-secret sexual inclinations. More accurately, it served to announce to my wife that I had been chronically unfaithful to her, that I had years before rendered meaningless the solemn, heartfelt vows I recited with absolute sincerity in front of God, family, and friends.

This last month has lasted an eternity, each and every day bringing new, more shocking reflections on the charade I perpetrated for more than 15 years. It’s as though the face I saw in the mirror just weeks ago — loving husband, decent family man, dedicated provider — has morphed into a monster of inexplicable ugliness. I am a selfish, narcissistic, egocentric philanderer. Bisexual, yes; but still, a selfish, narcissistic, egocentric philanderer.

Some concerned friends have advised me to take it one day at a time. I only wish it were possible for me to even think in 24-hour chunks. These days, it’s minute, by minute, by minute. And, I ain’t singin’ a Doobie Brothers’ tune. One minute, I want to die. I’m not talkin’ figuratively here. I mean that I want my life to end. ASAP. I long for the pain to stop. I hunger to slip away into an eternal nap, escape from my self-hatred, be relieved once and for all from the guilt, the shame, the remorse that eats away at my guts because I have caused such profound hurt. The next minute, I take a deep breath and try to convince myself, “It’s okay. It’s okay. It’s okay.” I look at the blue of the beautiful, early autumn sky, and know that I should treasure this here, this now. But, I can’t. I don’t deserve to feel good about anything anymore.

That weak, unconvincing self-speak, repeating “It’s okay” to myself, is as good as it gets — until I pour my first of what invariably turns out to be a series of strong drinks. That first sip of vodka and grapefruit juice makes everything alright again. Starting with the cocktail hour, which has been arriving earlier as the weeks drag on (it’s always five o’clock somewhere, after all), I drink myself to sleep, to numb the pain, anesthetize the self-loathing, and push my broken heart out of sight. Then, I invariably wake up on the couch, with the TV blaring. It’s 2:30 a.m., maybe 3:30 or four, and I’m delirious. A half-full glass of tepid, yellow liquid sits on the coffee table. I lift it to my lips and take another gulp, grimace, and climb to my feet. Finally, I stagger to my daughter’s vacant bedroom to sleep it off. I’m a mess, an absolute, pathetic mess.

So, what have I learned? The first whack upside the head (thanks, but I really didn’t need that) was this: that the issue with which I had been struggling was not really my sexuality — no, that was secondary. The real issue was my infidelity, my dishonesty. One would think that a man of some intelligence would have figured that out after a decade and a half of living a lie. Not this guy. Apparently, I’ve got some big ol’ blind spots in my rear view mirror. If you find yourself challenged to believe that I was that big of an idiot, imagine how I must feel. Perfect little Danny Barmi, the boy with all the answers, the superior child, the one to whom the rules didn’t apply completely fucked up. It’s not as though I saw the lines on the road and simply refused to make the turn. I hallucinated my own road and drove off a cliff. I was like Art Linkletter’s poor daughter during the vaunted Summer of Love, who, in the midst of a blissful LSD trip believed she could fly, and leapt to her death from a third story window. Like her, I was completely delusional, living in a fantasy world, according to a conveniently fabricated perception of reality.

My most recent realization, and the one that invariably gets my tear ducts gushing is that there was a moment when I could have, when I should have come clean. It was a very long time ago, around the time I peddled my mountain bike through Griffith Park in L.A., stopped to take a leak, discovered two guys goin’ at it, and found myself getting aroused. Sometime between that day and the next time I went looking for another clandestine, anonymous, gay encounter to spy on was when I should have ’fessed up. I wonder why I didn’t value my wife’s love and our marriage enough to go to her and confide, “Darling, I thought I’d put all this behind me; but I’m having some feelings, and I need to tell you about them.” That’s what I regret. Why didn’t I even attempt to nip it in the bud before it was too late? Why did I allow my curiosity to rule my actions, letting my compulsions escalate year after year, until I became a full-on participant in some very dangerous, extremely foolish activities? Why did I end up living a secret, double life, a man with absolutely no self-control, helpless to steer his car away from those all-too familiar places? Why was I unable to stop myself from getting out of the vehicle, hiking those condom-strewn pathways, buying those peep-show tokens, entering those filthy restrooms? Why have I been incapable of keeping my zipper up?

[DuckiesDarling]

You know, Dan, when you first posted I felt sympathy for you and especially for your wife. But now it seems you aren't looking for support or guidance, you just want another sound bite for your book. That is disturbing.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Ok so you fucked up. You know it, you've admitted it. No why dont you decide to Do something about it instead of sliding down this never ending spirial of self-loathing, and go find yourself a good counsilor before you do nothing except make yourself worse or cause your wife and daughter some serious grief? Havent they been through enough? Talk to your wife, tell her you are seeking help, and show her you are putting forth the effort. This issue here isnt that you are bi, the issue is that you Lied, and cheated and did it for so damn long. If you are tired of being a mess then do something about it. Make up your mind to make some changes Now instead of finding yourself a miserable sop inside a bottle, or waking up dead some morning. Get out from behind this Eeore syndrome you've been going through and Do something about it.
Cat

[danreidbarmi]

Ok so you fucked up. You know it, you've admitted it. No why dont you decide to Do something about it instead of sliding down this never ending spirial of self-loathing, and go find yourself a good counsilor before you do nothing except make yourself worse or cause your wife and daughter some serious grief? Havent they been through enough? Talk to your wife, tell her you are seeking help, and show her you are putting forth the effort. This issue here isnt that you are bi, the issue is that you Lied, and cheated and did it for so damn long. If you are tired of being a mess then do something about it.
Cat

It's been one month, a month of getting used to a new reality, a reality I created myself for sure. Writing about it is what I'm doing about it. If you don't want to read, then don't. Perhaps you aren't familiar with despair, with overwhelming grief, with feeling helpless and hopeless, wanting to die because you destroyed someone's life, someone you love.

It's a journey. I hope I come out of this a better man. Both my wife and I are seeing therapists. Funny how, when I shared this same stuff with my therapist yesterday, I didn't get a lecture. She knows this is how I honestly feel and gives me the room to go through it.

Do you think I'm the only one on earth who feels this way? Is there not a possibility that someone, somewhere might be comforted to know that they are not alone in their despair? How do you think someone else on the edge of suicide might feel to see people saying "if you're tired of being a mess, then do something about it"? If you've ever been in this darkness, how can you not understand that you might be pushing someone off a ledge?

I am not suffering like this to get material for a book. I don't want to write this book. I have to. I have to, because it gives me a reason to take my next breath and because I'm hoping that my story can help other lost souls find their way. That's what I'm doing about it.

[Nadir]

Danni, independently if you are writing this as an outlet or as a new chapter for your book (or maybe both), I am with Cat on this one (as always ;)). You need some closure after this. Now it is certainly not the time to ponder on "what could have been" or "why I did this and not that". There is absolutely no use on crying over something that has been going on for time. Possibly you will emerge from this experience a changed man. I dunno if you should have told your wife about it, because as it is painful for her now, it would have been painful for her ten years ago. But you have to realize that maybe telling her ten years ago when "those feelings" resurfaced would have spared her the feeling of having been let down by the man she loved. Understand that she is bitter, for I think I would have been if I discovered that my spouse would have hidden their sexuality to me. Life is one crazy journey, after all. Some people have just got better directions. But you gotta support your wife. You gotta tell her that you love her every day, you gotta tell her that you are sorry. You gotta tell her that the vows that you recited when you guys were marrying were true to her. You respect her and you love her, thats the only thing that matters. But for that you need for her to forgive you. And believe me, even if I am young and unrelatively unexperienced when it comes to life, I know that forgiveness is never easy when it comes to some people. You will have to work through it. And it may seem hard. It may seem fruitless. But it never is useless. Trust me on that.

[tenni]

Dan
I say keep writing and posting. The two women who are telling you to get counselling and they have no sympathy for you now are ignoring the fact that you have been in counselling and have said so all along. it seems to me that they do not want to know what goes on in the mind of a married man who philanders after he stops and pays the price. All they (and their kind) want to do is say that it is wrong . They are rather simplistic and that is all that they can deal with. The fact that you are sharing with others here what is going on in the mind of a married man who has cheated and realized that he was wrong is of no interest to them.

I understand to a certain degree that this is creative cathartic actions. The book and chapter that you refer to is more about the technical aspects that you are thinking. Whether this book is every published or not is for the future. As a creative person you are doing this. I do not deal with emotional and psychological pain through my art but I understand the process. For me, when I have done so and people ask me if it was cathartic, I have to say no. For you, it may be helpful and so continue.

Yes, I initially didn't want to read your passage as you had warned that it was long. I also was not really up to a lot of more poor is me Dan comments. I did read it. It does have merit as it tells of the tortured position that a cheater may find himself. It tells of a process of discovery. Simplistic, moralistic people do not want to know that. I think that if this is ever published that you will find yourself rewriting the above passage as I suspect that your reflection may continue to change. For now though, it is a good process for you. Keep posting. Those that do not want to read it, will not open any thread by you or block you.

People that continue to post that you need to support your wife are not paying attention that you are not really in an emotional position to support her very much (it seems). It is a train wreck and both people are hurt. You should do what you can to support her but who is supporting you? It is good that you do have some friends who seem to be supporting you too. You erred and are discoverying things about yourself.

[bisexual Bill]

You claim that you're depressed. You also have posted about how you're supposedly seeing a therapist or a shrink. What does he/she say about all of this? Did you tell him or her any of this or show it to them? Are you even being truthful in any of this writing? Or do you just want to gather more stuff to write about and make yourself look like a martyr or pariah?

All of the best therapy in the world is useless unless you yourself want to change and do change.

It's your choice to keep drinking booze and be miserable this way.

This does read like just another sound bite and promotion for a poorly written memoir.

Have you actually talked to your wife? Or talked to your kid? Does your child know that her parents are getting a divorce? Your wife and daughter should come first before anything you're writing.

Stop writing. All of this mental masturbation is not helping you.

You seem to love to think in absolutes and the things you're writing about gay men is not true.

Stop the victim, pariah, and martyr complex since you knew what you were doing when you cheated on your wife. It was your choice to lie and cheat. It's your choice to keep drinking and not get help.


Naive me. I didn't realize that there was such animosity in the hard-core gay community toward bi, closeted, married men. Apparently many a gay man has gotten himself involved with a manipulative married guy who, in order to keep gettin' his cock sucked, made promises he never intended to keep. Damn those bastards! They make all of us look bad!

And, even though, from my experience, the gay community has been the most sexually licentious subculture of all, they draw the line at cheating on a spouse. My handle "marriedandbi" made me an immediate pariah. One lovely person even said that he/she wanted to stab me in the face with a broken screwdriver. (Why it had to be broken, I don't know. Rusty, I can see, but broken?) Anyway, i'll be sharing some of the "compliments" I received from the ladies on the Queer Forum in Chapter 4.

Best,

Dan

[rissababynta]

It's been one month, a month of getting used to a new reality, a reality I created myself for sure. Writing about it is what I'm doing about it. If you don't want to read, then don't. Perhaps you aren't familiar with despair, with overwhelming grief, with feeling helpless and hopeless, wanting to die because you destroyed someone's life, someone you love.

It's a journey. I hope I come out of this a better man. Both my wife and I are seeing therapists. Funny how, when I shared this same stuff with my therapist yesterday, I didn't get a lecture. She knows this is how I honestly feel and gives me the room to go through it.

Do you think I'm the only one on earth who feels this way? Is there not a possibility that someone, somewhere might be comforted to know that they are not alone in their despair? How do you think someone else on the edge of suicide might feel to see people saying "if you're tired of being a mess, then do something about it"? If you've ever been in this darkness, how can you not understand that you might be pushing someone off a ledge?

I am not suffering like this to get material for a book. I don't want to write this book. I have to. I have to, because it gives me a reason to take my next breath and because I'm hoping that my story can help other lost souls find their way. That's what I'm doing about it.

Umm, your therapist didn't give you a lecture because that wouldn't be something a therapist ethically does. You want to spill your feelings to and therapist like feedback, go to one. You want real life opinions, come here. You've done both, you've gotten both. No brainer there...

[Canticle]

Call me cynical.....but....

I wonder how much Dan is hoping, the finished tome, will retail at?

[Long Duck Dong]

dan, self exploration and facing reality is hard, bloody hard..... and I do understand from a different point of view.....

I understand from the point of view of mental illness...... how the reality of something life changing, changes you, your life and everybody around you.....

before I was diagnosised with dysthimia, I knew the way I was doing with people and things, was wrong, the way I was seeing others talk about how they did things, was so different to how I was treating people and how I felt about them..... yet I did not know why I was not able to do things the way others did or feel what they did.......

I knew that my actions and words had the power to hurt and destroy people but it really made no real difference to me..... then I was diagnosised with dysthimia and suddenly the reality of everything blew my head apart.....

now I have understanding and knowledge of who I am and what I have wrought in others lives, I try each day to not put things right, but to let others know that i now know what I was like and why I was like it...... and apologise to so many... and while that doesn't put things right, it can show people that I am now aware of what i did and that it genuinely concerns me and matters to me

sharing about aspects of my life ( how I was a asshole from hell ) and how it affected myself and others, is something I do as a way of coming to terms with my past..... and I see the same in you, in a lot of ways......

maybe I can not change the past, but I can change how I am in the future..... and each day I continue to make sure that I do, because who i once was.......and I am lucky that I have DD, she is a purpose and a reason for me to fight on every day, rather than just sit in the corner and shut the world off...... and your wife and your marriage is the same, its a purpose and a reason not to become who you once was........ something more tangible than just your own decisions to be a better person......

its a long and hard road my friend and like a alcoholic, the allure is strong, so strong, in us..... and only time will tell if we remain strong, or lose the battle and the ones we love so dearly......

[danreidbarmi]

dan, self exploration and facing reality is hard, bloody hard..... and suddenly the reality of everything blew my head apart..... now I have understanding and knowledge of who I am and what I have wrought in others lives, I try each day to not put things right, (how I was a asshole from hell ) and how it affected myself and others, is something I do as a way of coming to terms with my past..... and I see the same in you, in a lot of ways...... maybe I can not change the past,

Amen, you are preaching to the choir. And, as far as dysthemia is concerned, I call it being Finnish (or Norwegian in my book), but that's another story. I've been dealing with one form or another of clinical depression for all of my "adult" life, so I do get it.


but I can change how I am in the future.....

I believe that wholeheartedly.


its a long and hard road my friend and like a alcoholic, the allure is strong, so strong, in us..... and only time will tell if we remain strong, or lose the battle and the ones we love so dearly......

Too late for that for me. But, at least I can strive to be absolutely honest and truthful to myself and others in my life from now on. Right?

[falcondfw]

The one thing i don't get is why you felt it necessary to confess?
Why hurt your wife? Why hurt your daughter?
You should have just divorced your wife and claimed irreconcilable differences. Then, go on living your new bi lifestyle.

You claim to love both your wife and daughter, but you put them through this public humiliation. That does not sound like love to me.

Sounds more like you are trying to deal with the issues yourself so you have swung from one extreme to the other. First you cheated and lied. Now you are proclaiming all to the world. Sounds like you are just craving attention.

I pity your wife and I pity your daughter. Not only have you betrayed their trust, you have proclaimed it to all the world to humiliate them further. And the really sad thing is -- you just don't get it.

[void()]

Void clears his throat and sighs deeply. He reflects a few moments as a cigarette becomes a mantra into divinity via Zen. A low and deep voice of whiskey and cigarettes over razor wire emerges from a soft growl. "Some folks just like being asphyxiated, I guess. Well, I reckon it fair to oblige in due course. Pain for pain in kind, eh?"



"Perhaps you aren't familiar with despair, with overwhelming grief, with feeling helpless and hopeless, wanting to die ..."

Excuse me. Cat is one friend that I know beyond irrevocable doubt that does indeed 'get it'. You shan't belabor or besmirch her in front of me, 'nuff said on her behalf. She also can speak and defend herself well enough. Point being, you don't cut my friends and expect me not to speak up.

And she isn't the only that isn't as dumb as a bag of rocks. I swear your condescending arrogance chucks you off that fucking stool. You hang yourself by touting your mores. Sit the hell down, son, you ain't nothing but the rest.

Oh, sorry asshole. I tried being polite and civil. Now, I will be flat out blunt and barbaric. You might understand this language better, as with your superiority complex, it's probably what you expect of cretins. You can rot in any of the versions of Hells I don't believe in for being so smug.

Now on to your bullet points below, simply because you're bending over in front of me and I'm horny.

"Do you think I'm the only one on earth who feels this way?"

No, I don't think it at all honey. But you keep with the piss and moan of it, telling us all how it hurts and how you're so special for dealing with it, gee you kind of start thinking Dan must be something akin to a messiah. "Here's your cross."

We all bear it, bitch. In common circles it's called life and living. Big fucking surprise, if it lives, it dies. None of us will make it out alive. Sorry that's just a fact, Jack!


"Is there not a possibility that someone, somewhere might be comforted to know that they are not alone in their despair?"

It sure as fuck is no comfort for me. And yes, I too suffer from chronic depression. I don't drink like a fish, nor use drugs. I smoke tobacco and like a drink or two on occasion. Got a fifth of rum, 80 proof, it'll probably last me a year or better. This principle is called living in moderation, even in moderation.

I used to drink and grew up in a family tree of alcoholics. Most of family at one point or another have been abusers, or victims of abusers. We know what knock down drag out brawls are all about. Gee, Southern and Appalachian, sometimes we fight just to cure boredom. Usually having a few drinks in ya helps to roll with the punches.

Some fucking comfort, huh, bub?

"How do you think someone else on the edge of suicide might feel to see people saying "if you're tired of being a mess, then do something about it"?"


Actually I felt like someone had kicked me in the ribs after having turned them to rubber with a twenty pound sledge hammer. The pain was purely blissful in that fresh as a daisy machismo sense. There's an adage, if it hurts you know your still alive, keep on keeping on. And of course we got the ever popular nihilism, "if it doesn't kill me it just makes me stronger."

"Here's your damned three rusty spike nails, you filthy slut, now go tack yourself up."

And it made me realize, yes, I had to do something about it. I got involved in therapy, and the therapists bashed me that much more. I tried the poor ass pity party. Damn shame of it was they spotted me ten miles away. "He loves the pain, pile it on him."

They still eviscerate me with my own actions and words, too. But here's a secret from me to you. (Wink, wink, nod, nod) "If they're doing it for me, it means I don't need to rip myself a new asshole." People love me because I spoil them. I let them get by with murder on so many levels. You keep on pushing the buttons, sweetheart, we'll see about a finding you a comfy lap. I don't like using lube too much, either. Call me a rough boy.



"If you've ever been in this darkness, how can you not understand that you might be pushing someone off a ledge?"

Well, there are two paths to helping folks in the darkness.

You can create light for them, or ...

You can teach them to create their own light.

Some people have difficulty learning the later because it literally is too easy, too simple. "Uh huh, we intellectuals get all high and mighty and forget a tiny grain of sand in our moccasins can fuck us all to hell. Gee, I've not been there ... no way, not my stinky ass."

So, we wind up like Diogenes, in search of light in broad daylight. I personally blame Plato for this and if I could dig him up and skull fuck him for it, I would. If you really do write then you also read, ergo check out Republic Six, Allegory of a Cave by Plato.

He makes a really twisted case of enlightenment. I've been lost twenty eight years, after reading that piece. Not to mention the eight fucking tomes of Aristotle's metaphysics, and yes each one is different, but you really do need to read each to comprehend the subtle differences. Or you could just read Golden Bough.

At any given, if you keep making light for those in the dark you achieve nothing but creating a harem of dependents. Teach them to make their own light and you create a world as radiant as the sun itself. And sometimes it takes shoving them off a cliff.

D.H. Lawrence has a good point about this, too. He mentions that young birds do not pity themselves when their mothers shove them out of the nest. No, they do or die. And a Japanese writer from another era also makes this point, birds learn to fly on the way down to certain death. Pity never enters the field. Two different folks telling the same story, has to have some glimmer of truth, non?

"In summary, quit whining over spilled milk. Clean it up and go on about making me a cup of tea, eh, luv? No milk in my tea, Queen Mum says."


N.B.

Dan,

I know what I said about severing ties. I also know what I've said of communication. I'm a walking contradiction, saves people from calling me a hypocrite. Already screw myself, so no one else can. If I didn't like you, or didn't care enough, have faith in you as a person, then yes I would truly sever the ties. Now, get your wings unfolded.

[Long Duck Dong]

Void clears his throat and sighs deeply. He reflects a few moments as a cigarette becomes a mantra into divinity via Zen. A low and deep voice of whiskey and cigarettes over razor wire emerges from a soft growl. "Some folks just like being asphyxiated, I guess. Well, I reckon it fair to oblige in due course. Pain for pain in kind, eh?"



"Perhaps you aren't familiar with despair, with overwhelming grief, with feeling helpless and hopeless, wanting to die ..."

Excuse me. Cat is one friend that I know beyond irrevocable doubt that does indeed 'get it'. You shan't belabor or besmirch her in front of me, 'nuff said on her behalf. She also can speak and defend herself well enough. Point being, you don't cut my friends and expect me not to speak up.

And she isn't the only that isn't as dumb as a bag of rocks. I swear your condescending arrogance chucks you off that fucking stool. You hang yourself by touting your mores. Sit the hell down, son, you ain't nothing but the rest.

Oh, sorry asshole. I tried being polite and civil. Now, I will be flat out blunt and barbaric. You might understand this language better, as with your superiority complex, it's probably what you expect of cretins. You can rot in any of the versions of Hells I don't believe in for being so smug.

Now on to your bullet points below, simply because you're bending over in front of me and I'm horny.

"Do you think I'm the only one on earth who feels this way?"

No, I don't think it at all honey. But you keep with the piss and moan of it, telling us all how it hurts and how you're so special for dealing with it, gee you kind of start thinking Dan must be something akin to a messiah. "Here's your cross."

We all bear it, bitch. In common circles it's called life and living. Big fucking surprise, if it lives, it dies. None of us will make it out alive. Sorry that's just a fact, Jack!


"Is there not a possibility that someone, somewhere might be comforted to know that they are not alone in their despair?"

It sure as fuck is no comfort for me. And yes, I too suffer from chronic depression. I don't drink like a fish, nor use drugs. I smoke tobacco and like a drink or two on occasion. Got a fifth of rum, 80 proof, it'll probably last me a year or better. This principle is called living in moderation, even in moderation.

I used to drink and grew up in a family tree of alcoholics. Most of family at one point or another have been abusers, or victims of abusers. We know what knock down drag out brawls are all about. Gee, Southern and Appalachian, sometimes we fight just to cure boredom. Usually having a few drinks in ya helps to roll with the punches.

Some fucking comfort, huh, bub?

"How do you think someone else on the edge of suicide might feel to see people saying "if you're tired of being a mess, then do something about it"?"


Actually I felt like someone had kicked me in the ribs after having turned them to rubber with a twenty pound sledge hammer. The pain was purely blissful in that fresh as a daisy machismo sense. There's an adage, if it hurts you know your still alive, keep on keeping on. And of course we got the ever popular nihilism, "if it doesn't kill me it just makes me stronger."

"Here's your damned three rusty spike nails, you filthy slut, now go tack yourself up."

And it made me realize, yes, I had to do something about it. I got involved in therapy, and the therapists bashed me that much more. I tried the poor ass pity party. Damn shame of it was they spotted me ten miles away. "He loves the pain, pile it on him."

They still eviscerate me with my own actions and words, too. But here's a secret from me to you. (Wink, wink, nod, nod) "If they're doing it for me, it means I don't need to rip myself a new asshole." People love me because I spoil them. I let them get by with murder on so many levels. You keep on pushing the buttons, sweetheart, we'll see about a finding you a comfy lap. I don't like using lube too much, either. Call me a rough boy.



"If you've ever been in this darkness, how can you not understand that you might be pushing someone off a ledge?"

Well, there are two paths to helping folks in the darkness.

You can create light for them, or ...

You can teach them to create their own light.

Some people have difficulty learning the later because it literally is too easy, too simple. "Uh huh, we intellectuals get all high and mighty and forget a tiny grain of sand in our moccasins can fuck us all to hell. Gee, I've not been there ... no way, not my stinky ass."

So, we wind up like Diogenes, in search of light in broad daylight. I personally blame Plato for this and if I could dig him up and skull fuck him for it, I would. If you really do write then you also read, ergo check out Republic Six, Allegory of a Cave by Plato.

He makes a really twisted case of enlightenment. I've been lost twenty eight years, after reading that piece. Not to mention the eight fucking tomes of Aristotle's metaphysics, and yes each one is different, but you really do need to read each to comprehend the subtle differences. Or you could just read Golden Bough.

At any given, if you keep making light for those in the dark you achieve nothing but creating a harem of dependents. Teach them to make their own light and you create a world as radiant as the sun itself. And sometimes it takes shoving them off a cliff.

D.H. Lawrence has a good point about this, too. He mentions that young birds do not pity themselves when their mothers shove them out of the nest. No, they do or die. And a Japanese writer from another era also makes this point, birds learn to fly on the way down to certain death. Pity never enters the field. Two different folks telling the same story, has to have some glimmer of truth, non?

"In summary, quit whining over spilled milk. Clean it up and go on about making me a cup of tea, eh, luv? No milk in my tea, Queen Mum says."


N.B.

Dan,

I know what I said about severing ties. I also know what I've said of communication. I'm a walking contradiction, saves people from calling me a hypocrite. Already screw myself, so no one else can. If I didn't like you, or didn't care enough, have faith in you as a person, then yes I would truly sever the ties. Now, get your wings unfolded.

that is the best...... the most.........ahhh...... fuck me void, that is just framable and belongs on my lounge wall.......

its a masterpiece of expression........ and amongst the best posts I have ever read in the forum ......

[void()]

"that is the best...... the most.........ahhh...... fuck me void, that is just framable and belongs on my lounge wall......."

Void chuckles.

"Fuck you huh?"

In all honesty I say what I mean and mean what I say. This wasn't posted as a trophy but rather advice for a mate. He can take any, all of it or leave it for what it's worth.

Just got aggravated. We got people dying of starvation, children even. And there is no excuse for that. But here we are listening to Dan go on about his problem/s. There's wars going on all over the globe. Who cares? We need to carry Dan!

Yesterday I heard a song on the radio at work. It reminded me of someone I served with. He literally saved my life and I his. Last I heard he was in Afghanistan being used as bait since he's Muslim. "Go in and get the information we need, get out alive." But it's been ages since I've gotten word on him. "Me worried? Nah."

And here we carry Dan. Sorry, I'm just having trouble finding the picture for the paintings.

[Long Duck Dong]

its the advice parts that stood out very much, ..... like this one

"How do you think someone else on the edge of suicide might feel to see people saying "if you're tired of being a mess, then do something about it"?"

that says so much in such a simple way...... and to people like us that deal with depression, it really rings so true.......

so thank you again for gems like that, void.....

[falcondfw]

Void, that is one of the best posts I have ever read on here. You have my admiration and respect. Very well done.

[Nadir]

Void clears his throat and sighs deeply. He reflects a few moments as a cigarette becomes a mantra into divinity via Zen. A low and deep voice of whiskey and cigarettes over razor wire emerges from a soft growl. "Some folks just like being asphyxiated, I guess. Well, I reckon it fair to oblige in due course. Pain for pain in kind, eh?"



"Perhaps you aren't familiar with despair, with overwhelming grief, with feeling helpless and hopeless, wanting to die ..."

Excuse me. Cat is one friend that I know beyond irrevocable doubt that does indeed 'get it'. You shan't belabor or besmirch her in front of me, 'nuff said on her behalf. She also can speak and defend herself well enough. Point being, you don't cut my friends and expect me not to speak up.

And she isn't the only that isn't as dumb as a bag of rocks. I swear your condescending arrogance chucks you off that fucking stool. You hang yourself by touting your mores. Sit the hell down, son, you ain't nothing but the rest.

Oh, sorry asshole. I tried being polite and civil. Now, I will be flat out blunt and barbaric. You might understand this language better, as with your superiority complex, it's probably what you expect of cretins. You can rot in any of the versions of Hells I don't believe in for being so smug.

Now on to your bullet points below, simply because you're bending over in front of me and I'm horny.

"Do you think I'm the only one on earth who feels this way?"

No, I don't think it at all honey. But you keep with the piss and moan of it, telling us all how it hurts and how you're so special for dealing with it, gee you kind of start thinking Dan must be something akin to a messiah. "Here's your cross."

We all bear it, bitch. In common circles it's called life and living. Big fucking surprise, if it lives, it dies. None of us will make it out alive. Sorry that's just a fact, Jack!


"Is there not a possibility that someone, somewhere might be comforted to know that they are not alone in their despair?"

It sure as fuck is no comfort for me. And yes, I too suffer from chronic depression. I don't drink like a fish, nor use drugs. I smoke tobacco and like a drink or two on occasion. Got a fifth of rum, 80 proof, it'll probably last me a year or better. This principle is called living in moderation, even in moderation.

I used to drink and grew up in a family tree of alcoholics. Most of family at one point or another have been abusers, or victims of abusers. We know what knock down drag out brawls are all about. Gee, Southern and Appalachian, sometimes we fight just to cure boredom. Usually having a few drinks in ya helps to roll with the punches.

Some fucking comfort, huh, bub?

"How do you think someone else on the edge of suicide might feel to see people saying "if you're tired of being a mess, then do something about it"?"


Actually I felt like someone had kicked me in the ribs after having turned them to rubber with a twenty pound sledge hammer. The pain was purely blissful in that fresh as a daisy machismo sense. There's an adage, if it hurts you know your still alive, keep on keeping on. And of course we got the ever popular nihilism, "if it doesn't kill me it just makes me stronger."

"Here's your damned three rusty spike nails, you filthy slut, now go tack yourself up."

And it made me realize, yes, I had to do something about it. I got involved in therapy, and the therapists bashed me that much more. I tried the poor ass pity party. Damn shame of it was they spotted me ten miles away. "He loves the pain, pile it on him."

They still eviscerate me with my own actions and words, too. But here's a secret from me to you. (Wink, wink, nod, nod) "If they're doing it for me, it means I don't need to rip myself a new asshole." People love me because I spoil them. I let them get by with murder on so many levels. You keep on pushing the buttons, sweetheart, we'll see about a finding you a comfy lap. I don't like using lube too much, either. Call me a rough boy.



"If you've ever been in this darkness, how can you not understand that you might be pushing someone off a ledge?"

Well, there are two paths to helping folks in the darkness.

You can create light for them, or ...

You can teach them to create their own light.

Some people have difficulty learning the later because it literally is too easy, too simple. "Uh huh, we intellectuals get all high and mighty and forget a tiny grain of sand in our moccasins can fuck us all to hell. Gee, I've not been there ... no way, not my stinky ass."

So, we wind up like Diogenes, in search of light in broad daylight. I personally blame Plato for this and if I could dig him up and skull fuck him for it, I would. If you really do write then you also read, ergo check out Republic Six, Allegory of a Cave by Plato.

He makes a really twisted case of enlightenment. I've been lost twenty eight years, after reading that piece. Not to mention the eight fucking tomes of Aristotle's metaphysics, and yes each one is different, but you really do need to read each to comprehend the subtle differences. Or you could just read Golden Bough.

At any given, if you keep making light for those in the dark you achieve nothing but creating a harem of dependents. Teach them to make their own light and you create a world as radiant as the sun itself. And sometimes it takes shoving them off a cliff.

D.H. Lawrence has a good point about this, too. He mentions that young birds do not pity themselves when their mothers shove them out of the nest. No, they do or die. And a Japanese writer from another era also makes this point, birds learn to fly on the way down to certain death. Pity never enters the field. Two different folks telling the same story, has to have some glimmer of truth, non?

"In summary, quit whining over spilled milk. Clean it up and go on about making me a cup of tea, eh, luv? No milk in my tea, Queen Mum says."


N.B.

Dan,

I know what I said about severing ties. I also know what I've said of communication. I'm a walking contradiction, saves people from calling me a hypocrite. Already screw myself, so no one else can. If I didn't like you, or didn't care enough, have faith in you as a person, then yes I would truly sever the ties. Now, get your wings unfolded.


You...are...awesome :) Just enough said

[danreidbarmi]

its the advice parts that stood out very much, ..... like this one

"How do you think someone else on the edge of suicide might feel to see people saying "if you're tired of being a mess, then do something about it"?"

that says so much in such a simple way...... and to people like us that deal with depression, it really rings so true.......

so thank you again for gems like that, void.....

Btw, these were my words, not Void's.

Brilliant post, though, Void. Yes, there are children starving, cancers taking lives, and wars being waged, and politicians and corporate monsters taking advantage of all of it to steal more treasure. My world is a tiny one, not even a speck on a speck on a speck in the big picture. I realize that. But, right now, from inside me, the pain is huge. So, I write about what I'm going through now. This, too, shall pass. It's just a couple of pages out of 300, part of an ongoing journey.

It's interesting that someone would nail me for being a "smug" "asshole" with a "superiority complex" and then go on to recommend Plato and Aristotle. (Just sayin'.)

That my simpering has inspired such a retaliatory diatribe does not assuage my grief, but it actually helps. I'm actually a fun dude most of the time, and I often chuckle over my self-indulgence. One would think, however, that someone might say this much: "Sorry you hurt so bad, Dan. I hope you feel better soon. And, I hope you find what you're looking for." But, I put myself out there, and take what comes back.

Thanks,
Dan

[rissababynta]

Didn't people give you the whole "sorry you're going through this" thing when you first posted about this situation? I'm a bit confused...how many times were you wanted people to throw the sympathy out there for you?

[falcondfw]

Dan,
If people thought you were serious and were truly hurting, we would probably offer sympathy.
Instead, what we see is someone who wants fodder for his book.
This is a very personal issue for many people and by writing a book about it, you are making a mockery of what people are going through.
Do you have any idea how many people have lost everything by coming out? You are not unique or special. You are one of many. But you choose to use the megaphone and say "HERE I AM! I HURT!". Duh. Everyone who has been through this hurts.
Your book will not make it easier for others, because every situation is unique.
Deal with your issues and your family, but don't make a joke out of it by assuming your case is so special it will make others whole.
Sorry for being blunt, but I call em like I see em.

[fredtyg]

Dan,
what we see is someone who wants fodder for his book.
This is a very personal issue for many people and by writing a book about it, you are making a mockery of what people are going through.


I don't see it that way. Seems to me he's just using writing as a way of reaching out to others and, yes, a form of therapy. I do the same thing.

I do think he needs to move on, though. From a reader's standpoint I don't know how I could maintain my interest in how miserable he might feel. It might read better if he tells how he moves up and on from the situation.

For instance, does he still feel the desire to see other men? Will he still act on those desires, or will he stop in order to try and protect his marriage?

I realize he may not even know the complete answer to that yet. I have no idea what I would do if I was in the same situation. Might make interesting reading trying to figure it out, though.

[falcondfw]

I don't see it that way. Seems to me he's just using writing as a way of reaching out to others and, yes, a form of therapy. I do the same thing.

I do think he needs to move on, though. From a reader's standpoint I don't know how I could maintain my interest in how miserable he might feel. It might read better if he tells how he moves up and on from the situation.

For instance, does he still feel the desire to see other men? Will he still act on those desires, or will he stop in order to try and protect his marriage?

I realize he may not even know the complete answer to that yet. I have no idea what I would do if I was in the same situation. Might make interesting reading trying to figure it out, though.

Sorry Fred, I disagree. He cheated on her, abused their marriage vows, and has come here numerous times for "comfort".

If you truly love someone, you don't cheat on them. Even emotionally with a good friend. If there are issues, you work through them, no matter what.

I don't care if he has the desire to see other men or not. He did wrong (BIG TIME) and is looking for attention/forgiveness/justification. It is not up to me to give forgiveness. It is up to his wife and child.

He handled things ABSOLUTELY the WRONG way and he is looking for absolution. There are only 2 people who can give that. It is up to them whether they do or not. To make things worse, he is writing a book that will further humiliate his wife and child.

He is begging for attention. period. Your situation may be similar, but you are not writing a book to further humiliate your loved ones.

[danreidbarmi]

Dan,
If people thought you were serious and were truly hurting, we would probably offer sympathy.
Instead, what we see is someone who wants fodder for his book.
This is a very personal issue for many people and by writing a book about it, you are making a mockery of what people are going through.
Do you have any idea how many people have lost everything by coming out? You are not unique or special. You are one of many. But you choose to use the megaphone and say "HERE I AM! I HURT!". Duh. Everyone who has been through this hurts.
Your book will not make it easier for others, because every situation is unique.
Deal with your issues and your family, but don't make a joke out of it by assuming your case is so special it will make others whole.
Sorry for being blunt, but I call em like I see em.

Okay, what makes you think this is a joke? What right do you have to make that assumption? I have shared a mere two or three pages of what will eventually be a 250-300 pg book. This is a snapshot of a much larger arc, a pivital moment to be sure, hopefully a turning point, but really just a slice of the journey.

Yes, I'm fully aware that thousands have lost everything by coming out. That's exactly what I'm going through right now. Why would I make a mockery of anyone else's similar experience? While the specifics of every situation are different, the emotions are common to all of us. You may not think I'm serious, Mr. "Blunt," but I "call 'em like I see 'em, too." Most of the time these days, I want to die. Is that not serious enough for you?

I suppose you would have told Joan Didion that she was making a joke out of grieving her husband's sudden death by writing "The Year of Magical Thinking." "Lots of people have lost someone, Ms. Didion," I can just hear you saying. "Your book won't help anyone. Every situation is different. Your story is of no interest to anyone else." You are so wrong! Grief is grief. Loss is loss. Coming out is coming out -- always scary, always confusing, always difficult. Honesty always involves sacrifice. The journey of recovery is longer than 30 days. Didion wrote her beautiful, incredible book because she is a writer, because writing is her life's work.

Am I writing this book because I want to make a lot of money or achieve greater recognition? No, I'm writing it because it's my way of surviving through the toughest period of my life. It's the same way I got through a month of sleeping with my bleeding, one-legged, cancer-riddled dog before I had to finally put her down. It's the same way I got through my brother unexpectedly dropping dead a year ago this month. It's the same way I made it through skin cancer and having nearly 1/3 of my nose sliced off.

I don't need this forum to get "fodder" for my book. I've written four books without your help, thank you very much. A man is honest about his pain, writes about it, and gets pounced on for revealing the genuine emotions he is feeling? (Emotions that many experience in isolation and probably haven't a clue how to put them in words.) Wtf is that all about? Wtf are you thinking? How dare you question the sincerity of someone who feels remorse over blowing his whole fucking life to smithereens?

One of two things will happen. I will get through this and move on; or I won't. Believe me, if I'm somehow unable to get past this self-loathing and grief, I certainly won't be bringing my pity party back to this bunch. Yes, people here have been kind and sympathetic to me in the past. Those words were sincerely and deeply appreciated. But, I guess there's a quota on sympathy 'round these parts. "Sorry, Dan, you've cried enough. It's been a month now. Buck up, kiddo. 23 years of marriage? Get over it. It's all in the past. Move along with your little joke of a book and stop bothering us with your common, everyday shit. We've got more important things to discuss, like butt plugs, swallowing cum, and whether or not we prefer to do it in the dark."

[void()]

Let me give you a little preface. I used to lurk and submit a few pieces to a mailing list which ran from MIT at one point. That list was called WRITERS. It really never was nor probably never will be a high volume mailing list.

There were actual professional writers on that list. They were all from varying backgrounds, experiences and experience levels.Often the list delved so far from writing as to be seen as nearly pointless.

But eventually one or more of us could pull out congruency as related to writing. And our list was often visited at random by mental health professionals as well. They may announce themselves or not. Most often we could tell from their posts if any. It was sort of a passing game and inside joke, "spot the doc".

My recommending a varied list of authors does not imply anything aside from the verisimilitude of my own reading. I'm well read. Big deal, there are millions of other folks who are as well or more studied than me. I have also read Socrates and disagree with his final position, as he cowardly admitted might is always right. And this from my experience is not always the case.

It doesn't mean I'm arrogant to have read so much toilet paper. I was offering pieces of it that helped me through tough times. I read it to escape being physically beaten, also read and probably ought to have a degree in modern psychology by age thirteen as well. But that isn't arrogance, it's what saved me. When small stand upon the shoulders of giants, they don't mind. Sorry for the obvious Lao Tzu reference.

At any given you keep making up lists of points.


"Okay, what makes you think this is a joke? What right do you have to make that assumption? I have shared a mere two or three pages of what will eventually be a 250-300 pg book. This is a snapshot of a much larger arc, a pivital moment to be sure, hopefully a turning point, but really just a slice of the journey."


""Okay, what makes you think this is a joke?"

I believe the poster whom presented this to you stopped short of asking you this directly. They were being polite and civil by not directly asking. But there it is for you. What does make you think it's a joke?

"What right do you have to make that assumption?"

Again, I think this was direct to you.


"Yes, I'm fully aware that thousands have lost everything by coming out. That's exactly what I'm going through right now. Why would I make a mockery of anyone else's similar experience? While the specifics of every situation are different, the emotions are common to all of us. You may not think I'm serious, Mr. "Blunt," but I "call 'em like I see 'em, too." Most of the time these days, I want to die. Is that not serious enough for you?"


"Why would I make a mockery of anyone else's similar experience?"

Do you not watch the network news? Seriously, they profit at the misfortune of others. You write to educate, entertain. There's really not many more reasons to write, and they mostly give way to one of these two base ones.

Using mockery is a form of comedy, similar to parody. Although to mock can be seen as flattering or slandering and debasement of character. In the case of the later you'd be affronting everyone that has gone through such the same events of life. Are you truly sadistic enough to not grant others dignity, humanity?

See, you need to consider your writing as a gesture. It will reflect for ages. And no I'm not saying you needn't write at all out of fear of offending Polly Anna. What I am saying though is words are a sword if arranged properly. You are a writer, or claim such, ergo you will know this and be wise and disciplined in the use of words. Such is implied and granted it may seem unfair. But that is life and there is no changing it.

And you certainly must have some premeditation in writing your book. You appeal to universalism, which is to say you write to be understood by Everyman. This form of writing also practices the use of hooks or triggers which in effect lure in readers. But as you were possibly versed, you must play fair. Writing fiction allows us to lie to craft a story for entertaining and educating. It doesn't allow us to lie as regular people in every day life. And yes, I do think you lied and are continuing to do so.

It is in how you respond so adamantly in defense, and how quickly too, which implies this to me. And while you do admit others have experienced the same, you ultimately funnel it back to yourself. This to me reads of narcissism most grand.

Again it isn't arrogant of me to read. It's what I do to escape, and further better others and myself. By the way I've often been told I ought to be an editor simply because I retain congruency and can find different ways to phrase the common. And that isn't arrogance either, it's admitting ignorance. You see? What do I know of editing? Not much. But I do know people because I know myself. That's something you need in order to survive.

See, I too can appeal to universalism. But I do not mock you with it. Instead my goal is to call you aside as a friend and show you a different view. Maybe you can use this to better understand your writing, yourself, others. It might help you, or not. I can't breathe for you though.

The rest of your argument is lost. Because it is you attacking someone who says "who cares?" And ultimately as a writer you know you have less than thirteen seconds to grab an editor's eye. You need to hook them, give them reason to wear their heart upon their sleeves. Let it go while you are here, please? You're in the midst of real people who do go through what you do. We may seem to not care. That is just us realizing our own 'specks' can be vast universes unto themselves.

Such realization can be mind numbing to the point of looking at the world aloof, or in a really screwed up way. We don't mean to seem insensitive or callous, hollow. But we truly don't need or want someone rubbing salt in our wounds for amusement, either. And this is how your forum posts appear.

[falcondfw]

Void, just ... wow! Much props to you.
Dan,
What makes me think this is a joke? I don't. I think this is serious. Serious self-agrandizement.
Were you not completely narcissistic, as void says, you would have kept this to yourself or asked only a handful of friends for help, instead of dragging your wife and daughter into it. THEY are the victims, not you. Get over yourself.
You are making a mockery of everyone who has been through this by going public and assuming YOUR story is so priceless that it will help so many that the story is worth further insulting your wife and daughter.
What you should have done is write a journal of your travails and kept it private (mostly). Then, if somewhere down the road a friend reads it and says "You know, you could help a lot of people by publishing this.", that is when you try to find a publisher.
You do not assume up front that your story is meant for the world. That is true narcissism and arrogance.
As for your depression, GROW A SET! You have no clue who you are dealing with or everything I or others have been through. I have beaten bi-polar disorder, without meds. You can too. Just grow a set. Do i still get depressed? Hell yeah. Do I kick it in the ass within a day or two? You better believe it.
I have no clue who Joan Didion is. Nor do I care. I don't care about her books. What I care about is bs artists that beg for attention at every turn.
If you are truly going through this, find a few good friends to confide in and help you. Do not further insult your wife and daughter by dragging them through the mud on this or any other forum. And, most importantly, do not publish a book. Keep a journal as catharsis for yourself, but publishing a book would only hurt your family further.

[danreidbarmi]

danreidbarmi-What are the titles of the other books that you've supposedly written?

To protect my wife and family, I cannot put that information in this or any public forum. I am writing my new book under the nom de plume, Dan Reid Barmi, which is an acronym for married and bi. Suffice it to say that I am a songwriter with a substantial discography, an award-winning screen-writer, a produced playwright and the author of four published books.

I am not a household name. I am by no means an expert on anything. I am only a journeyman creative soul who has had the privilege of making a living as a writer for over 40 years.

[falcondfw]

To protect my wife and family, I cannot put that information in this or any public forum. I am writing my new book under the nom de plume, Dan Reid Barmi, which is an acronym for married and bi. Suffice it to say that I am a songwriter with a substantial discography, an award-winning screen-writer, a produced playwright and the author of four published books.

I am not a household name. I am by no means an expert on anything. I am only a journeyman creative soul who has had the privilege of making a living as a writer for over 40 years.

Dan,
Don't you see? Whether you are an accomplished writer or not, the only thing you are doing by going through with this book is hurting the ones you claim to love. Your wife and daughter. I urge you to STRONGLY rethink this strategy.

[danreidbarmi]

I think this is serious. Serious self-agrandizement.

Like Joan Didion, right?


Were you not completely narcissistic, as void says, you would have kept this to yourself or asked only a handful of friends for help, instead of dragging your wife and daughter into it. THEY are the victims, not you. Get over yourself.

I have admitted to being narcissistic, unlike you or the rest of the holier-than-thou crowd. What I choose to write about is between me and my family. And, yes, my wife is definitely the victim in this scenario. At last, you've spoken the truth (by accident, but it is the truth -- and, I have confessed as much in this forum -- and directly to her, not that that's any of your business)


You are making a mockery of everyone who has been through this by going public and assuming YOUR story is so priceless that it will help so many that the story is worth further insulting your wife and daughter.

I have never made any assumption that my story is "priceless." In fact, I believe my story is something that a lot of men can relate to and can benefit from. You disagree. Write your own book and see what it's like to reveal your deepest and most sincere feelings and have some self-righteous stranger spout moral judgments about your writing. Do it. I dare you.


What you should have done is write a journal of your travails and kept it private (mostly). Then, if somewhere down the road a friend reads it and says "You know, you could help a lot of people by publishing this.", that is when you try to find a publisher.
You do not assume up front that your story is meant for the world. That is true narcissism and arrogance.

You know what? I don't give a shit about what you think I "should have done." Sure, I can be arrogant. All writers are arrogant, presuming that their work is of interest to others. If every writer just waited for a friend to say, "You've got to publish this," there would be about a dozen books in the public library. Get real.


As for your depression, GROW A SET! You have no clue who you are dealing with or everything I or others have been through. I have beaten bi-polar disorder, without meds. You can too. Just grow a set. Do i still get depressed? Hell yeah. Do I kick it in the ass within a day or two? You better believe it.

Hooray for you! Now, write about your struggle and see if anybody cares.


I have no clue who Joan Didion is. Nor do I care. I don't care about her books. What I care about is bs artists that beg for attention at every turn.

Admitting to being unread and anti-intellectual doesn't support your argument. If I were prone to hand out unwanted advice, as you seem to be, I'd advise you not to be so quick to reveal your obvious ignorance.


If you are truly going through this, find a few good friends to confide in and help you. Do not further insult your wife and daughter by dragging them through the mud on this or any other forum. And, most importantly, do not publish a book. Keep a journal as catharsis for yourself, but publishing a book would only hurt your family further.

Once again, I am not interested in your personal or career advice. You have completely discredited yourself by revealing your presumptuous pompousness and overt disrespect for a fellow traveler as well as your voluntary ignorance of meaningful contemporary literature. Did you put Void down for mentioned Plato and Aristotle? No. Why? Oh, I suppose you've read all of that stuff. Yet, you assume Joan Didion, a woman who wrote one of the most important and poignant books on grief, a very personal book that has helped thousands cope with loss, is not worth your awareness. You say, "grow a pair." I say "buy a brain."

[falcondfw]

Like Joan Didion, right?



I have admitted to being narcissistic, unlike you or the rest of the holier-than-thou crowd. What I choose to write about is between me and my family. And, yes, my wife is definitely the victim in this scenario. At last, you've spoken the truth (by accident, but it is the truth -- and, I have confessed as much in this forum -- and directly to her, not that that's any of your business)



I have never made any assumption that my story is "priceless." In fact, I believe my story is something that a lot of men can relate to and can benefit from. You disagree. Write your own book and see what it's like to reveal your deepest and most sincere feelings and have some self-righteous stranger spout moral judgments about your writing. Do it. I dare you.



You know what? I don't give a shit about what you think I "should have done." Sure, I can be arrogant. All writers are arrogant, presuming that their work is of interest to others. If every writer just waited for a friend to say, "You've got to publish this," there would be about a dozen books in the public library. Get real.



Hooray for you! Now, write about your struggle and see if anybody cares.



Admitting to being unread and anti-intellectual doesn't support your argument. If I were prone to hand out unwanted advice, as you seem to be, I'd advise you not to be so quick to reveal your obvious ignorance.



Once again, I am not interested in your personal or career advice. You have completely discredited yourself by revealing your presumptuous pompousness and overt disrespect for a fellow traveler as well as your voluntary ignorance of meaningful contemporary literature. Did you put Void down for mentioned Plato and Aristotle? No. Why? Oh, I suppose you've read all of that stuff. Yet, you assume Joan Didion, a woman who wrote one of the most important and poignant books on grief, a very personal book that has helped thousands cope with loss, is not worth your awareness. You say, "grow a pair." I say "buy a brain."

You can insult me all you want. It only weakens your argument that you "want to help".

My ONLY concern is for your wife and daughter. And if you were thinking of them at all, none of this would be public.

You are not a "fellow traveler". You are an attention seeker. At the cost of your wife and child. And that makes you either an idiot or an ass.

And you know what, the reason I have not admitted I am narcissistic, IS BECAUSE I AM NOT! I put others before me. Always have, always will.

And no, what you choose to write about is not between you and your family if you publish it, so let's get the bull crap out of the way.

At least we agree on something. Your wife and daughter ARE the victims in this! STOP VICTIMIZING THEM FURTHER!!!!!! As for it not being my business, you made it my business when you chose to insult them further by posting here, instead of finding a few friends you can talk to about this privately.

Do you see anybody else dragging wives and children into this on this forum? No. Because when we married, we truly meant the words "I love you". We did not see them as an opportunity to enhance our career.

All writers are arrogant? excuses. That may be the case, but the ones I know are also gracious. You are not.

My ignorance of contemporary literature? I could give a rats ass what you think. I am too busy reading and learning to keep up in my career. I probably read at least 12 700 page books a year to keep up, so go pound sand. If I had time to read for pleasure, I would. But i don't.

Nobody gives a rats ass about how I beat bi-polar. That is the difference between me and you. I recognize that fact. You don't. I only stated that in order to give you some hope. Because you can beat it. Bi-Polar is an evil, devastating disorder if you let it be. But there is hope. I have beaten it. So have others. So can you. You don't have to be enveloped in depression. There are ways. On this, I am concerned about you and not your family. Educate yourself on the situation and find a cure like i and many others have. You can beat this!

And actually, yes, I have read Plato and Socrates and Aristotle and Homer and William Shakespeare. I actually have a 2nd edition of William Shakespeare's plays. I love Shakespear and Homer. The Illiad is my favorite story of all time. So no, I am not up on modern authors. But then, my job does not offer me the time to be. As for Joan Didion, maybe i should look into her work. I could use some education on grief. I have been through enough of it and I am not handling it well. I appreciate the education.

My ONLY point is DO NOT do this to your wife and daughter. You were married for 23 years. That has to count for something. Do not publish this book and further embarass them.

As for you, if you are for real and truly struggling with things, I honestly do feel for you and wish you the absolute best. I have been there. As have many others. It was hard. Very difficult. But we got through it. So will you. If you are truly struggling with this, I honestly wish you the absolute best.

[rissababynta]

I think he's getting mad you guys :tong:

[falcondfw]

I think he's getting mad you guys :tong:

goody. maybe if he thought about his wife and daughter, he would not have a reason to get mad?

[void()]

I think he's getting mad you guys :tong:

Mad? Good for him. He might then actually learn to fly. I agree with falcondfw about beating depression. You have to grow a set as suggested. Yesterday was a 'bad' day for me. Nasty thoughts of "ya know, it's all so pointless, you're useless, worthless" came along and started bitch smacking me.

When they did I had to summon courage, reach out to my wife. Didn't tell her what was going on, she knew by my tone. She reminded me that I'm not a feeling. No one is a feeling. You are in control. But you have to stare the beast directly in the face and tell it to fuck off. It's not easy.

At any given I like Metamorphosis and Beowulf, Gilgamesh if any are interested. And today I'm doing better. I accomplished a lot this week. I learned ballet dancing by doing it in the thrall of forklifts whizzing by all around me. If not forklifts, big tractor trailers. I didn't get ran over or even bumped. And the drivers all respected me. The supervisors made me into the lot boss.

It's a bittersweet feeling knowing they have that much confidence in me. Because I do intend to work toward doing something else and don't want to hurt them by simply pulling up stakes overnight. At the same time it would be foolish to pass up an opportunity at fifty grand a year. My wife would love that as her new paycheck. :)

Ah well, better scoot out of this thread. Need coffee.

[danreidbarmi]

You can insult me all you want. It only weakens your argument that you "want to help".

I don't have to argue on behalf of my desire to help others. I know in my own heart. You refuse to believe it, because you think I'm exploiting my pain by dwelling in it for my own self-agrandizement. If I was doing that, why would I use an assumed identity? Why wouldn't I attach my own brand to this stuff and post links to my website and Amazon pages?


My ONLY concern is for your wife and daughter. And if you were thinking of them at all, none of this would be public.You are not a "fellow traveler". You are an attention seeker. At the cost of your wife and child. And that makes you either an idiot or an ass.

I am both idiot and ass, thank you very much. But, my family is MY family, and I will take responsibility for them myself.


And you know what, the reason I have not admitted I am narcissistic, IS BECAUSE I AM NOT! I put others before me. Always have, always will.

Bragging about your imminent sainthood?


All writers are arrogant? excuses. That may be the case, but the ones I know are also gracious. You are not.

No excuse necessary. As someone put it so succinctly in this thread, that is a "statement of fact." All artists have to presume that the world is interested, fascinated even with their emotional journey. You call that arrogant. If every writer, composer, painter, sculptor internalized their human frailties as you suggest I should do, there would be no art (other than religious glorification.) And, since you do not know me, your opinion on my lack of graciousness is completely uninformed.


My ignorance of contemporary literature? I could give a rats ass what you think. I am too busy reading and learning to keep up in my career. I probably read at least 12 700 page books a year to keep up, so go pound sand. If I had time to read for pleasure, I would. But i don't.

Declaring that you "don't give a shit" about a writer who has helped millions deal with grief by sharing her own personal story of a year in her life is worse than ignorant. I didn't read Didion's powerful book for pleasure. I read it to make sense of the inexplicable and totally unfamiliar emotions I experienced after my dear, younger brother's heart suddenly stopped beating just 50 weeks ago.


Nobody gives a rats ass about how I beat bi-polar. That is the difference between me and you. I recognize that fact. You don't. I only stated that in order to give you some hope. Because you can beat it. Bi-Polar is an evil, devastating disorder if you let it be. But there is hope. I have beaten it. So have others. So can you. You don't have to be enveloped in depression. There are ways. On this, I am concerned about you and not your family. Educate yourself on the situation and find a cure like i and many others have. You can beat this!

In my opinion (as un-humble as it may be at times), I think millions of people would be very interested in hearing the story of how a man "beat" bi-polar disease without drugs. But, you had some torturous days before you came out the other side. I am enmeshed in the torture at present. It's part of the journey. Anyone (like yourself, for instance) who has suffered clinical depression knows that, when you're there, everything seems hopeless and meaningless. I have always dealt with my depression by putting one foot in front of the other with the knowledge that someday the sun will shine again. For me, putting one foot in front of the other involves writing. To document the lowest points, the darkest part of the journey is essential. Thanks for the encouragement. I know there is light at the end of this tunnel. I hope I survive to see it.


And actually, yes, I have read Plato and Socrates and Aristotle and Homer and William Shakespeare. I actually have a 2nd edition of William Shakespeare's plays. I love Shakespear and Homer. The Illiad is my favorite story of all time. So no, I am not up on modern authors. But then, my job does not offer me the time to be. As for Joan Didion, maybe i should look into her work. I could use some education on grief. I have been through enough of it and I am not handling it well. I appreciate the education.

Please pick up The Year of Magical Thinking. A caring friend, who had recently lost two loved ones, demanded that I put down whatever it was I was reading at the time and read Didion's book. While I couldn't relate to living in hotels on the Riviera and lounging around the pool in Beverly Hills, I found many familiar emotional touchstones that helped me understand my confusion. Grief can be such a strange and lonely place. Someone with a mastery of the language who has been down that road before can offer comfort. That's exactly what I hope to accomplish with I Know You, You Know Me. I'm no Joan Didion, but I'm trying, doing my best, seeking excellence, as always. There is nothing pleasurable about writing about one's pain. I would much rather be writing another satirical novel. For now, I feel obligated (both to myself and to those "fellow travelers") to use my literary talents (for what they're worth) to write about the journey of coming out as a married, bisexual, sex addict.


As for you, if you are for real and truly struggling with things, I honestly do feel for you and wish you the absolute best. I have been there. As have many others. It was hard. Very difficult. But we got through it. So will you. If you are truly struggling with this, I honestly wish you the absolute best.

I don't know why you still doubt my sincerity. But, thank you for your wish, as qualified as it is.

Dan

[falcondfw]

I think you are exploiting thing for your own self-agrandizement, because you continue to force this issue and the only thing it is going to do is hurt your wife and daughter.

You say you will take responsibility for them, but you show no evidence of doing so.

Look. You say you are a writer. Be the next Dean Koontz or Dale Brown. Write a fictional story and you can incorporate things from your struggle into it, but do not hurt your wife and daughter further.

As for "bragging about imminent sainthood", I am far from a saint, but I am also not self-absorbed.

And no, artists do not have to assume the world is interested in their emotional journey. There are hundreds or thousands of examples of people who are in the performing arts, because they absolutely love that medium and if others like what they do, great. Yes, they have to make a living, but they could do that as a UPS Delivery man during the day and do what they love at night. By your statement, you assume facts not in evidence to further your own cause.

I did not say I "don't give a shit" about what Joan Didion wrote. If you can read, I actually said that maybe I should look into what she wrote. What I said was, I don't give a shit about your assessment of my literary skills.

As for depression, putting one foot in front of the other is essential. You are definitely doing the right thing. You want to know what helped me (don't laugh)? Acai berry. Yes, seriously. Get the pure organic stuff from an online vitamin store. The pure stuff has to be used within a month of opening it. It absolutely took away my depression, without destroying my creativity. Now, that being said, I also know people that it has not worked for. But it did for me.

Yes, there were some very dark days. I wish I could say I had support, but I did not, even though I was married. I had to beat things on my own. You just have to keep pushing.

I know, as an artist, you would probably be averse to this, but maybe you should talk to your psychiatrist about getting on some meds, just for the short term to help you through this. Maybe lithium or something like it. If you are that worried about "making it through", I hope you will seriously consider talking to someone about meds.

A "married, bisexual sex addict"? Well, the sex addict part is called being a man. lol. Ok. don't kill me. I'm just joking. The married bisexual can be very difficult, but at least you know. I did not even know I was for most of my marriage.

As for the sex addict part, I am not saying this is your case, but I think that is the "in" thing in hollywood now. If you screw up, claim you are a sex addict and go to rehab for it for 30 days. I think it is just too easy to claim. Everybody loves sex (ok most do. I forgot about my ex. lol). As far as I am concerned, the only way people are sex addicts is if they are totally consumed with it. They are always thinking about it. They cannot control themselves. It costs them relationships and jobs. That is a true addict. I don't know you so I can't tell if you have those issues, but I hope to god you don't.

[danreidbarmi]

As for "bragging about imminent sainthood", I am far from a saint, but I am also not self-absorbed.

A joke, brother. Lighten up.


And no, artists do not have to assume the world is interested in their emotional journey. There are hundreds or thousands of examples of people who are in the performing arts, because they absolutely love that medium and if others like what they do, great. Yes, they have to make a living, but they could do that as a UPS Delivery man during the day and do what they love at night. By your statement, you assume facts not in evidence to further your own cause.

I have published two books on this subject. I have lived for over 40 years as a professional in the creative end of the entertainment biz. I know that an artist has to love his or her process (that is, after all, all we have control over) -- but he or she also has to believe that there is an audience for their talents.


I did not say I "don't give a shit" about what Joan Didion wrote.

I'm sorry, Pal. But that's a quote. Go back and read.


If you can read, I actually said that maybe I should look into what she wrote. What I said was, I don't give a shit about your assessment of my literary skills.

You should read her, and you shouldn't care what I think.


As for depression, putting one foot in front of the other is essential. You are definitely doing the right thing. You want to know what helped me (don't laugh)? Acai berry. Yes, seriously. Get the pure organic stuff from an online vitamin store. The pure stuff has to be used within a month of opening it. It absolutely took away my depression, without destroying my creativity. Now, that being said, I also know people that it has not worked for. But it did for me.

Yes, there were some very dark days. I wish I could say I had support, but I did not, even though I was married. I had to beat things on my own. You just have to keep pushing.

I know, as an artist, you would probably be averse to this, but maybe you should talk to your psychiatrist about getting on some meds, just for the short term to help you through this. Maybe lithium or something like it. If you are that worried about "making it through", I hope you will seriously consider talking to someone about meds.

I'm on an antidepressant. And, thanks for the Acai berry advice. I believe in holistic remedies. I know that I have some kind of chemical imbalance, probably related to blood sugar.


A "married, bisexual sex addict"? Well, the sex addict part is called being a man. lol. Ok. don't kill me. I'm just joking. The married bisexual can be very difficult, but at least you know. I did not even know I was for most of my marriage.

As for the sex addict part, I am not saying this is your case, but I think that is the "in" thing in hollywood now. If you screw up, claim you are a sex addict and go to rehab for it for 30 days. I think it is just too easy to claim. Everybody loves sex (ok most do. I forgot about my ex. lol). As far as I am concerned, the only way people are sex addicts is if they are totally consumed with it. They are always thinking about it. They cannot control themselves. It costs them relationships and jobs. That is a true addict. I don't know you so I can't tell if you have those issues, but I hope to god you don't.

You're preachin' to the choir. The last thing in the world I wanted to admit to or use as an excuse is addiction. However, as I posted in an earlier thread, my therapist gave me the title of the definitive book on the subject (Out of the Shadows, by Patrick Carnes). It nailed me, and explained why I've been so incredibly stupid and blind and out of control for so long. Still, coming to the awful conclusion that I had become a slave to compulsive behavior does not make me feel better about how severely I've wounded my wife. For that, I will always harbor unbearable remorse.

[danreidbarmi]

danreidbarmi when was the last time you had sex?

Not that it's any of your business. But in the interest of honesty and full disclosure. With another man, 3 1/2 months. With my wife, about 6 weeks. When I came out to my wife, she declared that she would never make love to me again. I promised her that as long as we lived under the same roof that I would remain celibate. She doesn't need to be worried about where I am or with whom. So, I made that promise out of respect to give her one less thing to worry about.

Over the last month, I broke that promise by masturbating once. It was a very different, sort-of violent, exceptionally passionate, form of self-abuse, resulting in a geyser of a climax. Oddly, other than that, I haven't felt very sexual since I came out. I've been able to control my urges, because I really haven't had urges.

Because of my lack of desire, I've been tempted to go to my wife and say that I can stay straight and true to her, and beg her not to leave me. But, I tried making that promise on our wedding day, and my quashed desires eventually got the best of me. So, as I'm unwilling to risk being untruthful again, I have to sacrifice my marriage. We're still friends. Sad friends. Sad friends who still love one another and are forever bonded by our beautiful daughter and more than two decades of amazing memories.

[danreidbarmi]

OK it doesn't sound like you are a sex addict at all.

I see. Perhaps you might wanna display your diploma before making such a final diagnosis. I attend bi-weekly sessions with a certified psychologist, and she has yet to make this determination. I kicked alcohol cold turkey for almost 3 years. Now I drink like I hope there's no tomorrow. Read the book.


Does your daughter know that you and your wife are getting a divorce and why you are?

No, she doesn't know. She just started her freshman year at college. We want her to get her feet solidly on the ground at school before we throw the grenade. Then, we will tell her together and reveal exactly as much as we feel is appropriate, no bitterness or blame. I will then have a private talk with her about my sexuality. Is that okay with you? Any advice? We're discussing how to do this the right way, so I'm listening.

[Pasadenacpl2]

If you truly love someone, you don't cheat on them.

I am suspicious of absolutes. Only sith use absolutes.


He handled things ABSOLUTELY the WRONG way and he is looking for absolution. There are only 2 people who can give that. It is up to them whether they do or not. To make things worse, he is writing a book that will further humiliate his wife and child.

He confessed, and asked for forgiveness. Yes, he did wrong. But, we are all granted the ability to change, to confess, and to ask for forgiveness. Once one does that, does not that mean we should be looking at how he handled the confession and aftermath, rather than purely focusing on the wrong originally committed?

Or, is it your viewpoint that once someone has done wrong that they are damned and nothing they do from that point on is meaningful?


He is begging for attention. period. Your situation may be similar, but you are not writing a book to further humiliate your loved ones.

Maybe. Maybe not. I cannot begin to think I know his motivations with enough assurance to say.

Pasa

[danreidbarmi]

I am suspicious of absolutes. Only sith use absolutes.



He confessed, and asked for forgiveness. Yes, he did wrong. But, we are all granted the ability to change, to confess, and to ask for forgiveness. Once one does that, does not that mean we should be looking at how he handled the confession and aftermath, rather than purely focusing on the wrong originally committed?

Or, is it your viewpoint that once someone has done wrong that they are damned and nothing they do from that point on is meaningful?



Maybe. Maybe not. I cannot begin to think I know his motivations with enough assurance to say.

Pasa

Sometimes people are generous enough, wise enough, and compassionate enough to restrain from making assumptions, rash generalizations, or judgments. Thank you for these generous words.

Dan

[falcondfw]

I see. Perhaps you might wanna display your diploma before making such a final diagnosis. I attend bi-weekly sessions with a certified psychologist, and she has yet to make this determination. I kicked alcohol cold turkey for almost 3 years. Now I drink like I hope there's no tomorrow. Read the book.



No, she doesn't know. She just started her freshman year at college. We want her to get her feet solidly on the ground at school before we throw the grenade. Then, we will tell her together and reveal exactly as much as we feel is appropriate, no bitterness or blame. I will then have a private talk with her about my sexuality. Is that okay with you? Any advice? We're discussing how to do this the right way, so I'm listening.

Dan,
Well, I am sorry you fell off the wagon, but I understand. I was an alcoholic at 14 and fell off the wagon in the last years of my marriage. And honestly, it was a big part of the reason for our breakup, But there were a lot of other issues too.

The daughter is going to be a tough one. Very tough. I was hoping she was too young to understand. Personal opinion is there is no right time to tell her this news (I'm talking about the divorce). Even if she "has her feet on the ground" at school, this will rock her world. One thing I would suggest is that as soon as you and your wife talk to her, you get her in therapy. Other than that, wow, only advice is be completely honest with her and make sure she knows how much you both love her and that this is not her fault.

I honestly wish you the best with telling your daughter, and with the drinking.

[falcondfw]

I am suspicious of absolutes. Only sith use absolutes.



He confessed, and asked for forgiveness. Yes, he did wrong. But, we are all granted the ability to change, to confess, and to ask for forgiveness. Once one does that, does not that mean we should be looking at how he handled the confession and aftermath, rather than purely focusing on the wrong originally committed?

Or, is it your viewpoint that once someone has done wrong that they are damned and nothing they do from that point on is meaningful?



Maybe. Maybe not. I cannot begin to think I know his motivations with enough assurance to say.

Pasa

Pasadena,
So are you saying it is ok to cheat on your spouse? I am sorry, if you love your spouse, you don't cheat on them. If you think alcohol will loosen your morals, simple, don't drink and don't put yourself in a position to test those morals.
If both partners have an agreement for an open marriage, that is a different story. It is not cheating.
I am looking at how he handled the confession and aftermath. This is a family we are talking about and a long time marriage. This is something that should be handled in private. Not on the internet to rub salt in the wound.
As for your question about my viewpoint, I won't dignify that one with an answer.

[danreidbarmi]

If you were in any way addicted to sex you wouldn't be abusing alcohol now writing on this site, and trying to write a book. You'd be going out and having sex with whoever you could find that wanted it.

That is simply not the profile of every sex addict. I am seeking to change my behavior, because I now know that it was compulsive and out of control.


Were you an alcoholic before or just someone who abused alcohol and were what people considered a problem drinker?If you were an alcoholic did you quit alcohol the first time on your own or did you actually go to treatment and A.A.?

After drinking a liter of wine every night for years, I stopped cold turkey, without going into any program. I was sober for nearly three years. But, I wasn't having much fun, so I started drinking again. I enjoy alcohol. It's part of my Scandinavian blood line (which is also the source of my depression). I'm not an alcoholic. I'm a habitual drinker.


How much do you drink now? For someone who is supposedly drunk all the time you're not showing it in your writing and posts. I've seen people write on all sorts of drugs and while very drunk on the internet and your writing does not reflect that.

Ever heard of F. Scott Fitzgerald? He didn't write like a drunk either. I've had a lifetime of practice. Most people don't notice my drinking. And, I'm not drunk all the time. These days, I drink from five or six until I pass out. It's a conscious choice to commit a very pleasant kind of suicide.


Which anti-depressant are you on? I've heard they can take up to two weeks to really start working so keep taking it.

I've been on anti-depressants for a year and half. They help a lot.


When your daughter comes home from college for the holidays tell her then.

Tell her in person face to face and not over the phone or via email, facebook, or some other impersonal way.

We've decided that Thanksgiving (ironic) is the best, soonest time. My quandary is that I have committed myself to living truthfully, so I don't feel comfortable being untruthful to her, or in asking close friends who know to participate in deception. It's not that I have any desire to crush my daughter's world and taint Daddy's sterling image in her head. It's gonna be very tough.


Tell her the truth about the divorce and have the talk about your sexuality in front of her as soon as you tell her about the divorce. She'll be full of questions once you and your wife both tell her that you're getting a divorce. Tell her that it is not her fault.

That's the plan. Thanks much for your help.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Pasadena,
So are you saying it is ok to cheat on your spouse? I am sorry, if you love your spouse, you don't cheat on them.

I did not say that it is ok. In fact, I specifically said it was not. But, that is different than what you said.

You said if X, then Y. That's called an absolute. It allows for no other possibilities. And I disagree. I do not think it is difficult to imagine at least one scenario in which someone cheats on their spouse but does not lose their love for their spouse. If we can imagine even one scenario in which this is true, then we see that the absolute is a faulty statement.

A better statement might be "If one loves their spouse they shouldn't cheat." I think far more people would agree. I will also put forth that our morals are personal, and should not be foisted upon others.


I am looking at how he handled the confession and aftermath. This is a family we are talking about and a long time marriage. This is something that should be handled in private. Not on the internet to rub salt in the wound.

This statement keeps being bandied about. How is this rubbing salt in the wound. From what I've seen, she's not on this website. So, she's not being subjected to it. We are all fairly anonymous here, so it's not like she's being humiliated in the community. I doubt that even if this book is published that anyone will recognize either of them. So, unless he puts her name up in church and confesses within their community, the statements from you and others that he is somehow embarrassing them doesn't really seem to hold water.


As for your question about my viewpoint, I won't dignify that one with an answer.

Didn't think you would. I find that most people who come down hard on cheaters have little to no ability to look beyond that.


DISCLAIMER: I do not advocate cheating. I believe it is wrong. I believe it's wrong when people try to justify it and say that it isn't really cheating. Nothing above contradicts this.

[danreidbarmi]

I do not advocate cheating. I believe it is wrong. I believe it's wrong when people try to justify it and say that it isn't really cheating. Nothing above contradicts this.

I have never "advocated" cheating either. However, I have justified my infidelity by saying, since I cheated with men, that I wasn't being untrue to my wife. My therapist put me straight on that. Tough pill to swallow, because I had been living in self-deception for a long time. That was when the entire picture changed from a man coming out as bisexual to a bisexual man confessing to being a philanderer.

The fact that I was, after all, a lying cheat, turned out to be the pink elephant in the room. The gargantuan creature was so close to my face that I didn't recognize it. I knew something smelled bad, but I didn't have enough perspective to see the source of the stink. Now, I've got the thing on a leash and drag him around with me everywhere I go. "This is my pet elephant," I say, "the one that stomped the hell out of my marriage."

[rissababynta]

I have never "advocated" cheating either. However, I have justified my infidelity by saying, since I cheated with men, that I wasn't being untrue to my wife. My therapist put me straight on that. Tough pill to swallow, because I had been living in self-deception for a long time. That was when the entire picture changed from a man coming out as bisexual to a bisexual man confessing to being a philanderer.

The fact that I was, after all, a lying cheat, turned out to be the pink elephant in the room. The gargantuan creature was so close to my face that I didn't recognize it. I knew something smelled bad, but I didn't have enough perspective to see the source of the stink. Now, I've got the thing on a leash and drag him around with me everywhere I go. "This is my pet elephant," I say, "the one that stomped the hell out of my marriage."

I thought that people only saw those pink elephants when they were smashed :tong:

[Pasadenacpl2]

I have never "advocated" cheating either. However, I have justified my infidelity by saying, since I cheated with men, that I wasn't being untrue to my wife. My therapist put me straight on that. Tough pill to swallow, because I had been living in self-deception for a long time. That was when the entire picture changed from a man coming out as bisexual to a bisexual man confessing to being a philanderer.

The fact that I was, after all, a lying cheat, turned out to be the pink elephant in the room. The gargantuan creature was so close to my face that I didn't recognize it. I knew something smelled bad, but I didn't have enough perspective to see the source of the stink. Now, I've got the thing on a leash and drag him around with me everywhere I go. "This is my pet elephant," I say, "the one that stomped the hell out of my marriage."

This is a self deception many bi men face. "I"m not cheating if it's a dude." Or, my personal favorite "I'm bi, so it's not really cheating since I'm just being true to myself."

Cheating is wrong. Justifying it is equally wrong. I've been vilified on this board before, and will be again, for such a strong stance. BUT, cheating and love have nothing to do with each other. It is perfectly reasonable to imagine a scenario where a person compartmentalizes and partitions where one life has no impact or bearing on another. Such leaps of mental gymnastics are not only possible, but likely.

This is where my disagreement with FalconDFW lies. It is in this, and this only, that I will say, Dan, that I believe that you are not necessarily the villain that some paint you to be.

I do, however, think that you had a chance to salvage this, and chose not to. I, and many others, gave you some excellent advice from a 'been there, done that' viewpoint. You chose, from what I glean from your postings, to ignore that. Which sucks for the three people involved. Your pet elephant didn't smash your marriage. It tested it. It was salvageable. If it was worth saving, you could have saved it. Don't believe me? Ask Mrs. Pasa. Anyone on this board who's been around awhile knows what she and I went through.

I do not condemn you or say 'you deserve this for cheating' or any of the truly horrible things that have been said about/to you. I will not attempt to say what your motives are in any of this. I am truly not the judge of you, your morals or actions. Nor would I want the job if it were available. However, from what I have read especially in this thread, if anything should be learned from your memoir it is 'this is how not to come out to your wife.'

Pasa

[danreidbarmi]

from what I have read especially in this thread, if anything should be learned from your memoir it is 'this is how not to come out to your wife.'

Pasa

I appreciate your non-judgmental stance, but I'm not sure what you mean by this. What did I miss advice-wise that I should have done (since I've been posting on this board)?

There is no question that I needed, at long last, to be honest and forthright. As I shared in the post that begins this thread, I know there was a time when I should have been honest about some feelings, some curiosity that overtook me years ago.

I rehearsed it with my therapist. I thought it over for months. I weeded through dozens of condemnations on this board (and another one) to find the few who cared enough to help me do the right thing. I remember some disagreement here about whether or not it was appropriate to have "the talk" on the way home from dropping our daughter at college. Is that what you're talking about?

I apologize for my bad (or selective) memory. But, if I'm going to be held up as the example of what not to do, I'd kinda like to know what it was that I did wrong.

Thanks,
Dan

[Pasadenacpl2]

Well, for one, you didn't fight for her. You dropped the bomb, and then put it all in her hands. Whatever she chose to do is what you would accept. And you did...sorta.

Except that you were told, by more than one person, that that wasn't right. That you needed to fight for your marriage. She shouldn't have had to shoulder the burden and the decision. OF COURSE she was going to leave you once you did that. It was simply too much. You needed to show her how much you still wanted/needed to be her husband. You didn't. You sat back, let her shoulder it, and 'accepted' the outcome.

That's not accepting responsibility. That's accepting guilt and outcome. Responsibility, both for past actions and for future decisions takes far more. It takes manning up. Dan, I don't think you manned up. You started to. You took the very right first steps. But, once faced with the initial reaction, you shrank back from what could have been your defining moment as a man of character.

Pasa

[danreidbarmi]

Well, for one, you didn't fight for her. You dropped the bomb, and then put it all in her hands. Whatever she chose to do is what you would accept. And you did...sorta.

Except that you were told, by more than one person, that that wasn't right. That you needed to fight for your marriage. She shouldn't have had to shoulder the burden and the decision. OF COURSE she was going to leave you once you did that. It was simply too much. You needed to show her how much you still wanted/needed to be her husband. You didn't. You sat back, let her shoulder it, and 'accepted' the outcome.

That's not accepting responsibility. That's accepting guilt and outcome. Responsibility, both for past actions and for future decisions takes far more. It takes manning up. Dan, I don't think you manned up. You started to. You took the very right first steps. But, once faced with the initial reaction, you shrank back from what could have been your defining moment as a man of character.

Pasa

Sorry, but every situation isn't the same. Here's the problem: We need different things from our marriage. She needs absolute monogamy. Because I haven't been able to provide that for her in the past, I am unwilling now to make an absolute promise that I can give her that essential thing in the future.

Once again, there was a time when I could have saved the marriage. But, that was a long time ago. She often refers to how my cheating went on "for so long," and that there is nothing I can do now to make it right. I have told her on many occasions that, even though I understand how she feels, that I still hold onto a thread of hope she will change her mind. So far, she has been steadfast in her resolve.

Pasa, you've been very objective, very helpful, and non-judgmental here. Now you question my character? Why go there? It's beneath you.

Nighty night,
Dan

[Long Duck Dong]

its like I say, if you can not deliever the goods, do not offer them......

DD knows my stance for our relationship..... if I can not give a commitment or be sure of my stance regarding monogamy or open marriage, I will not get married..... , I need to give DD a clear and straight answer and stick by it....

currently, yes I feel that I would struggle in a marriage, not with having the desire to fuck or be with others, but with the impact on myself if I went outside of the marriage to sleep with others....
it would cause me a lot of self doubt over my ability to deliever in other aspects of the relationship if have to negotiate a exemption in one part.....

so dan, do not fuck ya wife around... if you think you can't be monogamous, tell ya wife that, she deserves a up front, no BS, clear answer

pussyfooting around and saying that you are unwilling to give her a statement of fact ( your promise ), is telling me that you can not be up front and honest with your own wife......

she has a right to know can you deliever or not.... as she has the right to decide her future...... instead of you holding things up so you can make a decision for both your futures.......

[heiferhopper]

Wow, what an amazing thread. Dan, for what it's worth, I thoroughly enjoyed your writing. I, too, am in a relationship that I cannot destroy, and I have lately been considering surrendering to my desires. In reading about your plight, I find myself reconsidering. I am not interested in reading about you and your family but about what you are going through and how you plan on making it out alive (I mean that literally). falcondfw, you have very valid points too, but understand this: if his book helps one person avoid the pain of infidelity, I think it would be worth it. I love my wife and my kids and I do not want them to have to face this. My selfishness in wanting to quench my desires must be set aside for them. I cannot allow for the situation that Dan is going through to occur and I need to understand the implications of my actions. I don't want to have to say "20/20 hindsight".

I just wanted to say thanks, also, to all who have posted onto this thread. I was absolutely enthralled by each and everyone's post. Also, I wouldn't mind reading something about what you went through falcondfw and how you conquered it, even if it was just a simple blog. You never know, you may very well help more than you realize. And void, keep up the writing, your musings were very much enjoyed...

[danreidbarmi]

so dan, do not fuck ya wife around... if you think you can't be monogamous, tell ya wife that, she deserves a up front, no BS, clear answer

pussyfooting around and saying that you are unwilling to give her a statement of fact ( your promise ), is telling me that you can not be up front and honest with your own wife......

she has a right to know can you deliever or not.... as she has the right to decide her future...... instead of you holding things up so you can make a decision for both your futures.......

WTF are you talking about? I made it clear from my first confession to my wife that I cannot promise to be monogamous (tried that 23 yrs ago - didn't work). To do so now, after all I've learned about myself, would be blatantly absolutely dishonest. And, I am through with lies - that's the least I can do for her now, out of respect for her as a friend and fellow human being.

That's the primary reason why we're headed for divorce: She will not accept anything less than monogamy, and I can't guarantee I that I'll never suck another cock for the rest of my life. Those on this forum (like Pasa, who is otherwise extremely helpful, empathetic and non-judgmental) who have chastised me for not "fighting for my marriage" don't seem to understand. There is no negotiation, no common ground on this fatal issue. (Still, I live in the hope that she will find a way to make this reality work for her.)

[csrakate]

I felt sympathy for you, Dan when you first announced that you had a difficult decision to make...but you lost me when you chose to drop this bombshell of yours on your wife on the day you dropped your daughter off at college. YOU chose to make this announcement on this very difficult day....a day when your wife would already be questioning her place in this world now that her child would be leaving the nest. YOU chose to compound that hard time by announcing to her that you are not only bisexual, but that you've been cheating and lying to her for many, many years and to add to that situation...you announce that you cannot and will not be monogamous in the future. That's a hell of a lot to drop on someone in one day, Dan...and for the life of me, I cannot fathom how you could be so cruel as to do all of this on this day. I refuse to believe that your therapist agreed with this decision for this announcement on this day. I refuse to believe that it was anything but YOUR decision to further dramatize a scenario for your book....either that or you had a publishing deadline....but either way, it was a most self centered act on your part. I could have forgiven this misstep on your part had you not followed up your post with a thread questioning why your wife didn't see the signs of your bisexuality...and why she could accept feminine attributes of your personality but not your sexuality. WHY do you even question her at this point???? YOU are the one who has questions to answer...YOU are the one who turned her world upside down. As for fighting for your marriage....you decided long before you announced your plight to your wife that your marriage was over....YOU made the declaration that you could not be monogamous when YOU knew that she would need that from you....so no Dan....you are not exempt from taking blame for the demise of your marriage....you had already decided that it was over a very long time ago.

I truly wish you the best, Dan...but it's time you let this subject matter rest and quit demanding the respect and understanding as if you were the victim....My respect and understanding are with your wife and daughter....they are the victims here. And while all of you may have to pick up the pieces of your lives, YOU are the only one who chose to make this change.....cut them some slack and quit playing martyr!

[danreidbarmi]

Wow, what an amazing thread. Dan, for what it's worth, I thoroughly enjoyed your writing. I, too, am in a relationship that I cannot destroy, and I have lately been considering surrendering to my desires. In reading about your plight, I find myself reconsidering. I am not interested in reading about you and your family but about what you are going through and how you plan on making it out alive (I mean that literally). falcondfw, you have very valid points too, but understand this: if his book helps one person avoid the pain of infidelity, I think it would be worth it. I love my wife and my kids and I do not want them to have to face this. My selfishness in wanting to quench my desires must be set aside for them. I cannot allow for the situation that Dan is going through to occur and I need to understand the implications of my actions. I don't want to have to say "20/20 hindsight".

I just wanted to say thanks, also, to all who have posted onto this thread. I was absolutely enthralled by each and everyone's post. Also, I wouldn't mind reading something about what you went through falcondfw and how you conquered it, even if it was just a simple blog. You never know, you may very well help more than you realize. And void, keep up the writing, your musings were very much enjoyed...

HH:
Although you have not asked for my advice, I will hand out this nickel's worth. If you have desires that you find difficult to ignore, now is the time to discuss them with your wife, before you do something you may regret. I know there was a time when I could have done that. It was a long, long time ago. And, I honestly don't know why I didn't have enough respect for my wife and my marriage to do that.

By not going to her then, I allowed a spark to ignite a blaze that, over the years, overtook my life and burned my world down. Now, I am living in the ashes of self-hatred, realizing far too late the damage and pain that I've caused. I will not say that you or anyone should deny your true nature or deprive yourself of the pleasures that can give your life richness and greater meaning. But, having taken a vow to your wife and a pledge to be there for your family, regardless of the status of your marital relationship, you owe it to yourself and to your spouse to be open and honest from the get-go.

My big mistake was that I failed in that regard. And, I will regret that till the day I take my final breath.

[NotLostJustWandering]

What was the name of the book again?

"Nobody Knows the Guilt I Suffer"?


--------------------------
Good night, boys and girls...
:devil:

[danreidbarmi]

What was the name of the book again?

"Nobody Knows the Guilt I Suffer"?


--------------------------
Good night, boys and girls...
:devil:

Quite the contrary, Mr. Pompous. Sweet dreams.
D

[Long Duck Dong]

WTF are you talking about? I made it clear from my first confession to my wife that I cannot promise to be monogamous (tried that 23 yrs ago - didn't work). To do so now, after all I've learned about myself, would be blatantly absolutely dishonest. And, I am through with lies - that's the least I can do for her now, out of respect for her as a friend and fellow human being.

That's the primary reason why we're headed for divorce: She will not accept anything less than monogamy, and I can't guarantee I that I'll never suck another cock for the rest of my life. Those on this forum (like Pasa, who is otherwise extremely helpful, empathetic and non-judgmental) who have chastised me for not "fighting for my marriage" don't seem to understand. There is no negotiation, no common ground on this fatal issue. (Still, I live in the hope that she will find a way to make this reality work for her.)

the point I am making is simple..... clear cut answers......... do not try to promise etc.... simple yes I can or no I can't....... that way there is no doubt where you stand and where she stands

since you can not be monogamous, do not stop your wife leaving...... grant her the freedom to go and take a balanced amount from the marriage in the way of assets......

you know if you will suck another cock or not, you can make that choice......

I am a ex alcoholic, I will state I will struggle with drinking time and time again in the future, I know I will and that I will drink again in the future...... but I will not return to the way I once was, a closeted alcoholic, and I will never hide my drinking again......
but I have the choice to have the drink... and I can say no... as much as I crave that drink... I can say no.......

your stance to me says * I can not guarantee that I will make a effort for my wife and my partner and go without another cock *
your stance to me says * if I have that desire and I want that cock, than I will have to decide if I value my wife over that cock, and well... cock is good.... cock is nice... and cock can be worth more than my wife and my marriage, and I am prepared to rate cock as more important then my wife and marriage *