Should a Democracy Support Non Democracies?

[tenni]

With the departure of Mubarak from being the thirty year "leader" of Egypt, we are seeing several Western leaders making statements about wanting Egypt to be a democracy.

Yet, Western democracies have supported this dictatorship and found him an ally. I also think about Afghanistan with Karzai as a questionably "elected" leader.

Where should those of us living in the West draw the line for our government's supporting such regimes?

Is it good enough if our governments tell us that these dictators are allies supporting keeping "peace" in a certain region?

Should we object to our tax money being used to support non democracies?

[void()]

tenni,

You must be a cantankerous goat with some vendetta against me having mental peace. :)
Possibly, you are the goat that was motherless. I will now be dispatching minions with predilection of keeping tabs on you. Dastardly villain! (void shakes impotent fist)

Where should those of us living in the West draw the line for our government's supporting such regimes?

This is a sixty four million dollar question. One could also inquiry where do we draw the line for political assassinations. Devils may quote rote and verse. I see it as the verse about taking a splinter from your brother's eye when have a mote in your own. Unfortunately, I'm not the king most divine whom rules the world, nor am one of the secret inner council. So, most of the world typically does not pay me any heed.


Is it good enough if our governments tell us that these dictators are allies supporting keeping "peace" in a certain region?

I hazard a negative response. After twenty years I've learned something about being discharged from the service. It was not what I was told, by governmental types acting then. And there are other subjects which the governments are inclined to dodge, or flat lie about. I think everyone is able to agree to noticing such.

Do not mistake what I am saying. I am aware governments, military folks can and do good things for people. Your question is pretty specific though. I can infer a situation such as Bin Laden, whom kept the "peace". We saw how that course ran. Of course, anything or anyone is culpable as a Baphomet. It's a synonym for scape-goat. Look up Jewish and Pagan culture. Rabbis would let villagers confess to a goat. The goat was then removed from town, slaughtered.

This was done as a means of cleansing and purifying the village as the 'sins' were pardoned by the goat's blood. Sinners perverted this a bit via accusing the goat for having made them sin. Baphomet was the title of a somewhat infamous painting exploring the baser occult meanings behind the practice. It got the title from a translation. No, I'm not Jewish or even Pagan, just read lots about lots of various subjects.

In earnest perhaps, laziness is the root of evils. People do not want to expend the effort required to take responsibility. And yes I'm included, sometimes it is easier to blame others than admit to an error.

Should we object to our tax money being used to support non democracies?

You lose me here by using a shot gun. The word support can invariably be defined, or inference given with it to mean so many things. Gather the broader meaning here and it still would be dependent upon several variables outside the scope of generalities. You would swim in silent waters. One example, what could be gained by supporting? Another, is the non democracy becoming a democracy? These are mere tips of icebergs. Other voices here may be more apt to discuss this all, further. Pardon my hesitance, it is from slight ignorance and desire to not be involved with studious and protracted debate about politics.

Our family jokes about keeping a creek near a sloping incline for politicians, lawyers. We rather dispatch them and roll them into the creek, as to hear or see them, most often. And yes, it is only jest. Our distaste of the political and legal is of the normal garden variety. We are not radical fanatical militant terrorists or insurgents, yet. ;)

[biinterested]

We are not a democracy, but a republic(that is the theory). Probably we are an oligarchy at best and we are in decline as the Roman Empire did. "The Barbarians are at the walls, we are bankrupt in many ways, our political leaders inept and the rule of law which rested on honesty is gone." The United States supported and supports any form of government which provides stability in a region and that is favorable to the agenda of the United States.
Should we support non democracies? No, but we no longer have the power or the presence to make any difference to the contrary. We go along to get along on our way down.

[tenni]

Void
I am clearly affected by the day's events. All of a sudden Western leaders are wishing the Egyptian people the "best" and stating that their future is in their own hands. It s a glorious day yada yada. Meanwhile for thirty years no such comments. Ignore the corruption, lack of democratic voting and still keep giving them money. The same near silence is going on in Afghanistan.....give money...give people's lives but support Karzai ( a guy who is President because the other guy withdrew when it became clear that the election was fraudulent...not chance for the opposition to win). It all seems so hypocritical. We just give our tax money and citizen's lives. We are quiet while our governments state that this is all for our own good...etc. pfft. I'm such an idealist at times.

[Long Duck Dong]

we like to believe that a democracy works... the power of the vote, etc etc and that supporting dictatorships are wrong, cos non democracies are wrong.....

we preach about how our ways are right...... so if they are right, why are they so wrong......

thats right, we are all treated differently...... unlike communism... and we are promised one thing and given another, unlike a dictatorship.... so should a democracy support a non democracy ??? personal choice... there is no right or wrong choice, only the choice we make.... and reap the rewards

incidentally, under a dictatorship, I would know my rights... under democracy, many are still fighting for the ones they were told they would get

[Hephaestion]

We are not a democracy, but a republic(that is the theory). Probably we are an oligarchy at best and we are in decline as the Roman Empire did. "The Barbarians are at the walls, we are bankrupt in many ways, our political leaders inept and the rule of law which rested on honesty is gone." The United States supported and supports any form of government which provides stability in a region and that is favorable to the agenda of the United States.
Should we support non democracies? No, but we no longer have the power or the presence to make any difference to the contrary. We go along to get along on our way down.

A republic is not mutually exclusive to a democracy - quite the reverse

republic n. State in which supreme power is held by the people or their elected representatives or by an elected or nominated president, not by a monarch etc.

Most capitalist systems are oligarchies and practically all are plutocracies both situations which tend to be antagonistic to democracy. As such, communism has higher democratic ideals higher than capitalism and yet tends never to achieve anything better. A democracy needs an egalitarian outlook with some modification imbued with recognizing the merit of its populace in an arena of mutual freedom.

I see bunnies on verdant pastures. The birds are singing and all of the people are freckled with smile lines on their faces. Nobody needs to take a dump or gets arthritis.

Should a democracy support non-demcracies? As others have suggested - 'where is the democracy'?

[darkeyes]

It is debatable if there is a single democracy on this earth. There are nations which operate by allowing people to elect represenetatives to national and local government bodies and allow a change of government through the electoral process and are relatively liberal. These mostly we call "representative democracies".. mostly I say because they allow a multitude of parties and political ideologies to be involved in the process.. some have one or a permitted few.. these we do not accept as "democracies". Some of course are despotic tyrannies of one party whose "democratic" assmbly is nothing of the kind.

There are variations of these forms of government throughout the world so the question really should be "In their own interests should the more liberal nations of the world support and prop up tyrannies who oppress and brutalise their people?" The answer is no of course.. and yet it isnt that simple.. sometimes even tyrannies need aid.. for the people of a tyrannical state have disasters like anywhere else... there are times when the more liberal "democracies" have to go to the rescue of a people in trouble.. and by that I dont mean invade to liberate..

The questions tenni pose are important, but based on an illusion of the world as it really is.. and they are not simple questions to answer for anyone..

[void()]

"I'm such an idealist at times."

I hear your protests and sit in the same boat of idealism. Before I had all this therapy and social conditioning, likely psychotic episodes caused by all of this collective excrement would happen. Yes, I've been brainwashed, psyche washed too. Fat lot of good it does when you need to contain a beast, to be disciplined. And then a psychologist tells you as casual as blackberry cordial, "you needn't stand watch, let your guard down. The beast won't hurt anyone, you've mastered it so."

Truthfully, I joked with my wife that disembowelment of passing strangers could be translated as me saying "hello." I'm an odd ball for sure. The docs say "but you're bisexual you love people, you can't possibly be misanthropic." I just smile and nod. Because I realize people screw up ideas and dreams, people can't help it. It is just how people are made. Even I have messed things up at times.

Used to be a Satanist until my wife pointed something out about the nine principles. You are unable to deem anyone stupid and worth destroying because you could be called stupid. This follows with a saying my uncle uses. Don't point a finger lest you can take three pointing back. Though it is obviously game enough to poke the leaders. They invite it with being public figures.

Here's something that has recently helped me. Billy Idol's latest album includes the song _Rat Race_. Part of the lyrics:



Chorus
It’s a rat, it’s a rat, it’s a rat race
It’s a rat, it’s a rat race
It’s a rat, it’s a rat, it’s a rat race
It’s a rat race

Aah life
Living in a rat race
C’mon

Hmm, life
Are you living in a rat race?
C’mon
Here inside yourself

Repeat Chorus twice

I’m locked up in myself
I’m locked up in myself


I live so many alternate lives inside it's a wonder return to a natural one is so easy. Suppose this hell we've all agreed on creating sinks hooks in deeply enough to bind a person. Many a day I fly through bluest skies freer than even doves upon wing. Many a night I envision being a captain on a vessel traversing the laughing stars. And yet here upon terra firma I remain, a humble slave unto ideas forged into prisons this hand did not build.

No, I've no idea of being a dreamer or idealist. Rather, I see the practical as not and grow weary of a wasteland threatening to eat humanity alive. These hands of mine bound up of fear and dread. Hands of love may build or destroy and so mine stay the course.

Void sits a moment reflecting, hears the voices. "People don't write like that, don't talk like that. This void guy must be off the reservation for sure."

Yes, I am. It is how one is able to perceive a reservation to know they are off. And yes, I write and talk like this. If I have something to say and there is conviction, then I say it. If it bothers you, you can take a flying leap or just not read it. I'm beyond apologies.

"The questions tenni pose are important, but based on an illusion of the world as it really is.. and they are not simple questions to answer for anyone.."

Aye, there's the rub. It's an illusion. I recall reading of some speculation of the Iluminati having hand in letting people think themselves free, whilst holding the strings. But it could be anyone of power, not merely Iluminati. Of course I do read fringe stuff, conspiracy theories, washing powder instructions, manuals for antiquated vacuum tubes used in radios, odd bits of Mandarin explaining excerpts of Taoism, how tos on plumbing, welding materials lists, carpentry blue prints, novels, essays, poems ... etc. Heck I even used to read the Christian Bible at times. At any given the pinch is the illusion, bang on.

Which lends to question Buddha a bit. "Imagine it and it will be."

Void wanders off to find a local buffer node. Buffers are what Neo would call constructs. I need a fresh buffer.