Might separatism actually swell our ranks?

[NotLostJustWandering]

I've been attending bi group meetings in NYC for 3 months now, and am very disappointed in the sparse attendance. It's more or less the same cast of characters over and over. I don't know just how many bisexuals there are in this city (well, who does?) but it's painfully obvious that the overwhelming majority of bi people can not be bothered coming to these meetings. As there is no other rallying point for bi community in this, the largest city in the USA, this means the overwhelming majority of bi people in NYC can not be bothered to form community.

Need I mention, these meetings take place at the LGBT Community Center, commonly known as the Gay Center -- a shorthand moniker that says a lot about the place and how the LGBT community is perceived. Sometimes the opinion is floated that we should meet in a place of our own, but the idea gets a pessimistic reception; we are too small and disorganized to attempt such a venture.

The LGBT parade is coming up and I am glumly pondering whether attending it really serves the cause of bi-visibility or if in the public's minds we just disappear under the queer umbrella. Last night I discussed this with a bi friend who has no interest in attending because he feels no affinity with gay and lesbians. I tried to argue that bi attendance of the parade means bi visibility, and found that I wasn't really sure I believed what I was saying.

I'm wondering how many bi people there might be out there who keep to themselves out of similar distaste for the gay and lesbian community (and there is SO much to dislike about it even if you haven't already experienced the rampant biphobia there.) Could it be that if we who want bi community shunned the LGBT umbrella and started our own places to meet, that actually hundreds or thousands of bi people would come out of the woodwork, and we would finally have a real community? Is our fear of failure nothing but a self-fulfilling prophecy?

[djones]

Thanks for posting this - I hope this may help get the ball rolling in NYC.

[mikey3000]

Toronto has a wonderfully organized bi community.

http://www.torontobinet.org/

Thing is, here, the LBGT community is all one. gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered all live and get along in one great village.

[slipnslide]

I wouldn't want to attend any group that is based on a single characteristic of myself. I wouldn't attend a group advertised for white people, why would I attend one for bi people?

[drugstore cowboy]

Why do you feel as though the GLBT "community" as it's called is rampantly biphobic or that gay men can be biphobic to the extreme?

This has not been my experience even when I've lived in various cities besides SF.

The big secret that Gay Inc. and most politically active GLBT types-even gay men, don't want to accept is that most GLBT people are your normal average citizens who don't want to get involved in politics, lame Pride parades, discussion groups, or back whichever candidate Gay Inc. or the Gay Party says is best to vote for even if they've been shown not to be for GLBT rights or same gender marriage. I'm talking about Obama.

[NotLostJustWandering]

I wouldn't want to attend any group that is based on a single characteristic of myself. I wouldn't attend a group advertised for white people, why would I attend one for bi people?

To meet other bi people.
To find support, and support others (hey, maybe you're content with your existence; plenty of us are miserable. Suicide is disproportionately high amongst us vs. the general population.)
To find mates, or friends you can connect with friends seeking mates.
To encourage the closeted to come out and live fuller lives.
To build a political base to bring our society towards true sexual liberation.

If you are so disinterested in bi community, why do you come to this site and post?

[slipnslide]

If you are so disinterested in bi community, why do you come to this site and post?

It's like a car wreck, I can't look away.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Toronto has a wonderfully organized bi community.

http://www.torontobinet.org/

Thing is, here, the LBGT community is all one. gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered all live and get along in one great village.

I've never been to Toronto, so I'll have to take your word for it. But I've met bi people here who have the same perception of the scene here, and all I can do is shake my head and repeat "there sure are a whole lot of different realities out there." Have none of you ever heard any of the following?

"You're just confused."
"You're going to have to make up your mind of these days."
"You're just halfway out of the closet."
"Oh you're so lucky, you can have twice as many dates."
"You don't know what oppression is; you have straight privilege."
"Hey, if you like pussy, get out of this bar/ center/ web site."

Anyway, even if what you say about Toronto is totally true, it still doesn't answer my question: how many MORE bis would come out and seek community if it didn't mean associating with gays and lesbians?

[NotLostJustWandering]

Why do you feel as though the GLBT "community" as it's called is rampantly biphobic or that gay men can be biphobic to the extreme?

Personal experience (echoed by other bis I've commiserated with). See my answer to Mikey.


This has not been my experience even when I've lived in various cities besides SF.

Maybe you've kept a safe difference, and I should stop sleeping with the enemy.


The big secret that Gay Inc. and most politically active GLBT types-even gay men, don't want to accept is that most GLBT people are your normal average citizens who don't want to get involved in politics, lame Pride parades, discussion groups, or back whichever candidate Gay Inc. or the Gay Party says is best to vote for even if they've been shown not to be for GLBT rights or same gender marriage. I'm talking about Obama.

I'm sure you're right, but nonetheless it is political action that has won the degree of acceptance and recognition gays and lesbians now enjoy in our society. Before Stonewall, you could get arrested for seeking same-gender sex. Now, you can get arrested for calling someone a faggot in public. This is serious progress. They've done well. So far we have done nothing but huddle under their umbrella, and for that tactic we have won no respect and only token recognition. I think we must strike out on our own if we are to better our condition and make our society more enlightened.

[NotLostJustWandering]

It's like a car wreck, I can't look away.

LOL.

But dear, allow me to point out that you are IN this car wreck.

[drugstore cowboy]

Personal experience (echoed by other bis I've commiserated with). See my answer to Mikey.

Maybe you've kept a safe difference, and I should stop sleeping with the enemy.

I'm sure you're right, but nonetheless it is political action that has won the degree of acceptance and recognition gays and lesbians now enjoy in our society. Before Stonewall, you could get arrested for seeking same-gender sex. Now, you can get arrested for calling someone a faggot in public. This is serious progress. They've done well. So far we have done nothing but huddle under their umbrella, and for that tactic we have won no respect and only token recognition. I think we must strike out on our own if we are to better our condition and make our society more enlightened.

I haven't kept a safe distance. Most gay men who I've met are not biphobic but I have met some rare ones who are but they're just assholes and douchebags so I ignore them and I don't care what they believe since I know myself better than they do. A lot of times they seem to have a preconceived notion about what bisexuality is and then they're surprised when you don't fall into their definition of it, or they think that if you have sex with men and fall in love with men that you have to be a gay man.

I've also met some gay men and even lesbians who have the decades old viewpoint that if you're a bisexual man or woman that you're somehow going to give HIV to them or to someone else. These people are living in the mid/late 80s and still believe false propaganda from the CDC back when HIV/AIDS was seen as a disease that only effects bisexual and gay men but you still have lots of ignorant people who do believe that HIV and AIDS are only things that bisexual and gay men have to worry about. :rolleyes:

I don't however like how certain people in the Gay "media" like Dan Savage, Michael Musto, and Andrew Sullivan are very biphobic and write essays where they say that bisexuals don't exist. These people are media whores, hypocrites, and not for GLBT equality or sexual freedom at all. A lot of my gay male friends even find these guys annoying and ignore them. Dan Savage is very hypocritical in that he tells GLBT teens/youth that "It gets better" but then he's made a living trashing bisexual and trans adults in his silly "advice" column and podcasts.

Most gay men who I've met are fine with bisexuality and think it's a good thing. The ones who don't are usually whiny victim types who claim that everything is "homophobic" yet are very vocal to criticize heterosexuals, bisexuals, and people who are not gay men. Or they think that by making an "It gets better" youtube video and donating money to the HRC that they're actually doing something.

I wouldn't say that bisexuals have done nothing but hide under the GLBT umbrella but I do think that it would be better if more bisexuals were visible and out.

Yes I do think that for some things separatism actually does work but then you'd have gay men and lesbians claiming that we're being "homophobic" because it's about bisexuals only and not the G&L. :rolleyes:

[Diva667]

I've never been to Toronto, so I'll have to take your word for it. But I've met bi people here who have the same perception of the scene here, and all I can do is shake my head and repeat "there sure are a whole lot of different realities out there." Have none of you ever heard any of the following?

"You're just confused."
"You're going to have to make up your mind of these days."
"You're just halfway out of the closet."
"Oh you're so lucky, you can have twice as many dates."
"You don't know what oppression is; you have straight privilege."
"Hey, if you like pussy, get out of this bar/ center/ web site."

Anyway, even if what you say about Toronto is totally true, it still doesn't answer my question: how many MORE bis would come out and seek community if it didn't mean associating with gays and lesbians?

In the lesbian community there isnt such rejection of bi identities, however most bi identified women don't seek out support for a number of reasons. In my case there wasn't any resources at the bi support group that I couldn't get at a lesbian support group. Plus the distance to any type of queer support center for me is just not do-able at the moment.

[tenni]

I find Mikey's statement about Toronto 519 in the gay ghetto interesting but I can not agree with his premise. I suspect that 519 gets funding from a variety of sources from municipal, provincial and federal grants. It has been quite sometime since I attended a meeting at 519 and I can not even remember what it was about. I couldn't really relate to what was being discussed but found it slightly interesting. Not interesting enough to go back. Like Diva, I am a distance away but I could get in if I really wanted to. I'd be spending twice the amount of time travelling as being in a meeting. Maybe, another type of gathering would work better and seem worthwhile.

I checked the site that Mikey gave. I will have to check it more carefully.

I suspect that bisexuals are just too diverse to gather and get grants etc. to provide programmes for themselves on their own. Better research may need to be done to find out what we want or need. Apathy. I rarely would go into the village these days. It can be curiously amusing to people watch but it just isn't for me. It seems fake and pretentious.

[BiDaveDtown]

In the lesbian community there isnt such rejection of bi identities, however most bi identified women don't seek out support for a number of reasons. In my case there wasn't any resources at the bi support group that I couldn't get at a lesbian support group. Plus the distance to any type of queer support center for me is just not do-able at the moment.

That is not true. I have met lots of lesbians who are VERY biphobic and make no secret about it.

I also have bisexual female friends who have told me how they've met a lot of lesbian women who are very biphobic to them unless they want to sleep with them.

A bisexual friend of mine went to a GLBT center when she was first coming out and accepting herself. She was told by the lesbians and gay men there, "Come back when you've accepted that you're really lesbian. Otherwise this place is not for you."


Thing is, here, the LBGT community is all one. gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered all live and get along in one great village.

That's not true either. It may work in theory but not so much in reality.

I've met gay Canadian men from Toronto who were very vocal about how they were NOT happy with the fact that their ghetto the village now has bisexuals, trans people, and even lesbians in it.

Some of these gay Canadian men were biphobic and wanted the pipe dream of gay male separatism which has never ever existed and never will.

[void()]

I've been attending bi group meetings in NYC for 3 months now, and am very disappointed in the sparse attendance.

Does this disappointment cause you emotional or bodily pain?

It's more or less the same cast of characters over and over.

Yes, life is inclined to complacency to a degree. That is a natural
happening, accept or alter it.

I don't know just how many bisexuals there are in this city (well, who does?) but it's painfully obvious that the overwhelming majority of bi people can not be bothered coming to these meetings.

If you do not know how many there are, then one imagines you do not
know each respectively. How may you judge 'they aren't bothered'? Have
you polled, asked?

As there is no other rallying point for bi community in this, the largest city in the USA, this means the overwhelming majority of bi people in NYC can not be bothered to form community.

See above.

Need I mention, these meetings take place at the LGBT Community Center, commonly known as the Gay Center -- a shorthand moniker that says a lot about the place and how the LGBT community is perceived.

I do not know if you needed mentioning it but apparently you felt
conviction, perhaps even righteous indignation compelling you to do
so. I will also query, what is in a label? Does it matter what places
are called where kindred meet?

Sometimes the opinion is floated that we should meet in a place of our own, but the idea gets a pessimistic reception; we are too small and disorganized to attempt such a venture.

I can understand disorganization. It seems to vie at dominating many
lives, inclusively. A spark creates an inferno. A gentle stream levels
mountains. Each must begin somewhere, sometime. Borrowing from
Socrates and a few others far wiser; "be the change you wish in the
world." You are wasting too much time bitching.

The LGBT parade is coming up and I am glumly pondering whether attending it really serves the cause of bi-visibility or if in the public's minds we just disappear under the queer umbrella.

We all vanish in some way, some where from time to time. Again, it's
part of the natural cycle of living.

Last night I discussed this with a bi friend who has no interest in attending because he feels no affinity with gay and lesbians.

And this bothers you? Frankly, it is your friend's choice and not
yours. It will be their consequences, not yours.

I tried to argue that bi attendance of the parade means bi visibility, and found that I wasn't really sure I believed what I was saying.

Even if you did believe it, likely you'd not win the argument. That
would be due to the 'backfire' theory. You'd be challenging the
opinions of someone else. Everyone knows, you can not argue opinions.

I'm wondering how many bi people there might be out there who keep to themselves out of similar distaste for the gay and lesbian community (and there is SO much to dislike about it even if you haven't already experienced the rampant biphobia there.)

Why wonder? No, seriously, why don't you just regurgitate a biased
media's opinion all over a public forum of bisexuals? Go on, spread
more hate and fear mongering, please do, I love it! Dude, come on out
and play. Forget the adults and their boring Aristotle inspired lives
and ideas. Who needs the politics circus?

Could it be that if we who want bi community shunned the LGBT umbrella and started our own places to meet, that actually hundreds or thousands of bi people would come out of the woodwork, and we would finally have a real community?

Maybe.

Is our fear of failure nothing but a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Maybe. Again, thanks for spreading more fear. I had thought you more intelligent.

Please note, I'm not attacking you but fear. I see I've not missed much in
my absence. Sad.

[AustinPowerX]

Now, you can get arrested for calling someone a faggot in public. This is serious progress. They've done well.
So reducing freedom of speech, even from morons, is a progress ?!!

Ignoring stupid people would be more efficient, and discussing with the least stupid would be a better step forward. Education is the key. And I don't mean propaganda ! Unlike education and discussion, a law never made anyone smarter !

Anyway, I'm closeted, but if I was known as bi, I'd rather know who my "enemies" are by ignoring loud morons rather than having them silent thinking 10x worse.



I think we must strike out on our own if we are to better our condition and make our society more enlightened.
Why do you so need an organisation for everything ?! Aren't there enough lobbies all over the place (USA or Europe) ? Each of them is fighting for its own interests, dividing everyone instead of uniting people.
Why can't people just discuss this with other people on their own and just see the mentalities change instead of having another organisation who will strike/fight/protest or any other agressive action ?

[BiDaveDtown]

Maybe. Again, thanks for spreading more fear. I had thought you more intelligent.

Please note, I'm not attacking you but fear. I see I've not missed much in
my absence. Sad.

What NotLost and other bisexuals on this site such as myself have been writing about gay men and lesbians being biphobic IS TRUE.

It's not based on fear it's based on the hypocrisy of some gay men and lesbians who claim that they're all about equality and GLBT pride but are not at all.

If you need more proof just google "Dan Savage, biphobic" and read what comes up as quotes from him.

Or look up the study by Dr. J. Michael Bailey who claimed that by using porn and a small number of gay men, he could prove that bisexual men don't exist, and people both Lesbians, gay men, and Heterosexuals actually believed this junk science.

There's also an essay from Drama queen Michael Musto where he writes about how he believes that bisexual men don't exist.

If you need visual proof watch the bisexual documentary called "Bi the way" where both Dan Savage and Musto say on camera how they don't believe in bisexuals or how bisexual men don't exist, and Savage is a bigot and doesn't understand bisexuality and thinks that most of us are some variation of heterosexual which in his mind means he can discriminate since a lot of gay men do not like heterosexuals at all.

Here's a blog from a very biphobic gay man, you can contact him at the top of the page.

http://www.teddypig.com/2010/06/bisexuality-pride-prejudice-the-difference-between-identity-sex/

Bigots like the author above want to totally rewrite GLBT history and erase the accomplishments of bisexual men and women from it and claim that we were never there alongside gay men and lesbians fighting for GLBT rights when we were there all along.

If you're too lazy to read the blog and all of the comments there here's a sample.


This is exactly why the people who actually were at the Stonewall Riots started organizing immediately to get people to stop with the “bisexual crap”. They needed support of a bunch of people who were willing to take a life threatening risk and “come out of the closet” and stop swearing they were “bisexual” and admit they were gay.

[mikey3000]

That's not true either. It may work in theory but not so much in reality.

I've met gay Canadian men from Toronto who were very vocal about how they were NOT happy with the fact that their ghetto the village now has bisexuals, trans people, and even lesbians in it.

Some of these gay Canadian men were biphobic and wanted the pipe dream of gay male separatism which has never ever existed and never will.

Dude, are you really trying to tell me about the gay scene in my own city? You're 2000 miles away and have never set foot here.

Yeah, there are always gonna be some bitter queens who are not happy much about anything, but you can't opine a whole community from a select few. I have been frequenting the village here a few times a week for years now and I have never encountered any sort of biphobia at all. I've had a few try to convert me entirely, but they were unsuccessful. Once they meet my wife, they adore her. a few months back, I've even had one gay guy offer me his male partner if he could have a crack at my wif!! LOL!, She didn't bite.

[Diva667]

Dude, are you really trying to tell me about the gay scene in my own city? You're 2000 miles away and have never set foot here.

Yeah, there are always gonna be some bitter queens who are not happy much about anything, but you can't opine a whole community from a select few. I have been frequenting the village here a few times a week for years now and I have never encountered any sort of biphobia at all. I've had a few try to convert me entirely, but they were unsuccessful. Once they meet my wife, they adore her. a few months back, I've even had one gay guy offer me his male partner if he could have a crack at my wif!! LOL!, She didn't bite.
Agree (1)

[djones]

Bigots like the author above want to totally rewrite GLBT history and erase the accomplishments of bisexual men and women from it and claim that we were never there alongside gay men and lesbians fighting for GLBT rights when we were there all along.


An Interesting thing to note, one of the major influences in music and popular culture in the last 40 years, David Bowie, is Bisexual and his popularity and stance on sexuality encouraged many young gay and Bisexual people to stand up for themselves. His influence also helped the mainstream come to accept the gay community. Today, we have Lady GaGa, a bisexual, speaking out in support of the gay community and giving young people the courage to be who they are.

Just two examples from popular culture of Bisexuals giving aid to the gay community. Yet, many of the loudest voices in the gay community still try to shout us down and say we don't exist.

I have posted on many other threads my theories as to why so many in the gay community do not like us. Suffice to say, yes, I feel no affinity for the "pride" parade. And to clarify my position on attending, I feel that it doesn't necessarily give visibility to the Bi contingent. Rather, it keeps us trapped under the "rainbow" of a movement that doesn't really like us or treat us with respect. Fear has nothing to do with it.

[BiDaveDtown]

Dude, are you really trying to tell me about the gay scene in my own city? You're 2000 miles away and have never set foot here.

Yeah, there are always gonna be some bitter queens who are not happy much about anything, but you can't opine a whole community from a select few. I have been frequenting the village here a few times a week for years now and I have never encountered any sort of biphobia at all. I've had a few try to convert me entirely, but they were unsuccessful. Once they meet my wife, they adore her. a few months back, I've even had one gay guy offer me his male partner if he could have a crack at my wif!! LOL!, She didn't bite.

Actually yes I have been to Toronto and other cities in other parts of Canada, and I've been to the village. I found it rather boring and a total tourist trap.

Even gay Canadian men can be highly biphobic as well even if they do live in a gay ghetto like the village.

[DuckiesDarling]

Interesting post, Atiq. The answer in my opinion is yes, but with a qualifier. When the bisexual community quits counting people as bisexual simply because they don't live their life the way others think they should then there will be more bisexuals to count in your fold.

[BiDaveDtown]

Interesting post, Atiq. The answer in my opinion is yes, but with a qualifier. When the bisexual community quits counting people as bisexual simply because they don't live their life the way others think they should then there will be more bisexuals to count in your fold.

You're not even bisexual at all so your opinion on what we bisexuals should do or what the bisexual community should do are all a moot point.

[DuckiesDarling]

You're not even bisexual at all so your opinion on what we bisexuals should do or what the bisexual community should do are all a moot point.

No, your opinion is your opinion, my opinion is my opinion. I have the right to share my opinion, you have the right to share your opinion. My opinion is based on the fact that I actually have had bisexual friends my entire life, I have had gay and lesbian friends as well. I have a bisexual partner, I have an interest in things that affect the LGBT because of my friends and my partner but more because I'm a member of a very large group called HUMANS. You remember them......

[void()]

"What NotLost and other bisexuals on this site such as myself have been writing about gay men and lesbians being biphobic IS TRUE.

It's not based on fear it's based on the hypocrisy of some gay men and lesbians who claim that they're all about equality and GLBT pride but are not at all."

Not denying any truth here, nor was that intended in my retort.

Ultimately I do see it based on fear. I comprehend what is written.

The question was posed does separatism dwell with us?

Of course it does, always has, probably always will. Everyone has freedom of choice though. It is your choice to be afraid of the hate of others. This in turn causes you to hate them right back.

What I am saying is this ...

Fuck the fear!

It needs to stop at some point and we each respectively must choose to not fear. Courage is not the absence of fear but a knowledge that something more important than fear exists. In this case that something is life, love, laughter, happiness. We can only be free if we choose but freedom is a package deal bundled with responsibility.

And no, I am not advocating that all bisexual people clamor to rooftops with bull horns announcing themselves. In fact, I choose to act straight in public. I do so to respect others, tradition, myself. Not everyone really must know I'm bisexual. Frankly, not really anyone else's business save for my lovers.

There again choice plays a role. I can have intercourse and love either gender. It is all the more special that you are chosen to be bedded by me. I'm very selective, ignoring loud mouthed asinine jerks who equate to imbeciles at best.

Getting so, I tend to ignore the victims of fear also. They continue the vicious cycle which destroys not merely one class of people, but us all. By all means, yes we must educate. But we also must not give fear a toehold, set an example. We are the stream crumbling the mountain of tradition and rite.

Barring that, we have and do thrive in the shades of invisibility. Doubt that will change much, soon. I hope it does but I'm realistic. Is it too much to ask that we drop the 'us' vs 'them' mentality? There is after all just us, one people. If we release hold on that idea, set it aside, we can aspire to new heights. But fear needs set aside.

Atiq,

If you want to respond further, I welcome it. Hopefully, this now will aid clarifying my position. I did not misunderstand your posting. Often when I address posts, I do break them into contextual chunks and focus on each bit respectively. There is a valid rationale in such methodology. It keeps everything a bit more congruent for me and others. I often do bring to fore everything and nothing in discussions.

Yes, I do have some mental issues. One is depression, another is hinted at PTSD from various events. My attention span is not as focused as it was years ago. I blame the media with good reason, yet if I point a finger, three point back. Besides media, I too have enjoyed some pleasurable medicines. Nice to lose yourself at times. Again though, personal responsibility enters the fray.

Right now, I am at a good place. I have finally started fitting in the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle that creates me. I am focused. Did not think what I had posted was too far into left field. Oh well, that teaches me to think. At any given, should you feel compelled to respond, c'mon in.

I may or not reply later. Getting far too verbose for this poet at heart.

[Long Duck Dong]

I've been attending bi group meetings in NYC for 3 months now, and am very disappointed in the sparse attendance. It's more or less the same cast of characters over and over. I don't know just how many bisexuals there are in this city (well, who does?) but it's painfully obvious that the overwhelming majority of bi people can not be bothered coming to these meetings. As there is no other rallying point for bi community in this, the largest city in the USA, this means the overwhelming majority of bi people in NYC can not be bothered to form community.

Need I mention, these meetings take place at the LGBT Community Center, commonly known as the Gay Center -- a shorthand moniker that says a lot about the place and how the LGBT community is perceived. Sometimes the opinion is floated that we should meet in a place of our own, but the idea gets a pessimistic reception; we are too small and disorganized to attempt such a venture.

The LGBT parade is coming up and I am glumly pondering whether attending it really serves the cause of bi-visibility or if in the public's minds we just disappear under the queer umbrella. Last night I discussed this with a bi friend who has no interest in attending because he feels no affinity with gay and lesbians. I tried to argue that bi attendance of the parade means bi visibility, and found that I wasn't really sure I believed what I was saying.

I'm wondering how many bi people there might be out there who keep to themselves out of similar distaste for the gay and lesbian community (and there is SO much to dislike about it even if you haven't already experienced the rampant biphobia there.) Could it be that if we who want bi community shunned the LGBT umbrella and started our own places to meet, that actually hundreds or thousands of bi people would come out of the woodwork, and we would finally have a real community? Is our fear of failure nothing but a self-fulfilling prophecy?

its something I have questioned myself..... how it is making us more visible when most of the time we go back to our lives and out of the public eye.....

personally i just can not see the point in getting involved in the politics of LGBT and who fits what criteria, ... as we just become like a pack of hungry dogs that turn on themselves.......

if we want to be more visible, we would need a more visible interaction with the community beyond a parade..... we would need a regular and ongoing presence in society beyond our bars and groups.......

a LGBT cafe etc in the center of town would make more of a ongoing impression than a march once a year

[BiDaveDtown]

its something I have questioned myself..... how it is making us more visible when most of the time we go back to our lives and out of the public eye.....

personally i just can not see the point in getting involved in the politics of LGBT and who fits what criteria, ... as we just become like a pack of hungry dogs that turn on themselves.......

if we want to be more visible, we would need a more visible interaction with the community beyond a parade..... we would need a regular and ongoing presence in society beyond our bars and groups.......

a LGBT cafe etc in the center of town would make more of a ongoing impression than a march once a year

I've seen posts where you wrote how you don't like GLBT Pride parades or what gets called the GLBT "community" in general, or at least what's considered to be a GLBT "community" in your country.

Most cities and even small towns already have GLBT cafes, they're just a gathering place or a meeting place like GLBT bars and dance clubs are except they serve coffee and tea and not booze.

[void()]

A car dealership ran by homosexual men, complete with a shop, would be pretty sharp too. Or maybe lesbian ran bike shop, bisexual ran chain of postal shops.

The point being to do the doable and do it well. Don't let it become 'about' sexuality but rather doing the work, living. Show people no fear. Provide a value while doing it and it sweetens the bottom line message.

We are who and what we are, will not change. We do not fear you nor should you fear us. We are one.

And it has worked in the past. Jews, blacks, even those jerks I mentioned, all 'integrate' in such a way and it works out fine. It doesn't matter who or what you are, much, because at the core you're a human being the same as anyone.

( I say much because we do have psychotics and sociopaths. Have personal and private views on them, not worth discussion here. Figure everyone does. Leave it at that. )

Yes, I know human beings are animals prone to fear. A bit of fear is alright, too. But we have to not let it paralyze us and create the hate it does. Setting it aside makes sense in order to live.

[sammie19]

I know some lesbians and have met gay guys who are militantly dubious about bisexuals and tell us we are not. Most of the ones I know and have met aren't like that but accept we arent quite the same as them.

The most doggedly lesbian woman I know is married to a bisexual woman, and the nicest is married to me. Both accept we are not lesbians. It takes all kinds but why do we care whether people accept us for what we are or not? We should care because we have a right to be accepted as what we are. We care because there is still prejudice to be fought and eliminated.

Whether we fight prejudice by remaining under the LGBT umbrella is something all bisexual people will decide for themselves but I think that divide and rule can only weaken us and make our fight to be ourselves all the harder. It is also likely to make gay and lesbian people all the more suspicious of us and reinforce the prejudices many hold.

In my personal life I am actually quite anonymous. I don't go around shouting that I am a bisexual woman to the world, but when out with lesbian or bisexual friends or my partner it is obvious I am not straight, and the way I flirt talk and dance with men and talk about them makes it obvious I am not a lesbian. I live my life and am only militantly bisexual if the need or occasion arises.

I am me. I care about me and how I am perceived, but if problems exist in the minds of other people, I care about that perception and it can be a problem to me but it is more their problem than mine.

[tenni]

Thanks Mikey for posting about the Toronto bi network. I've been reading the website. As I wrote above there are a few logistic matters that may make it difficult but I'm going to try (again?).

I read the posted history of the bisexual movement. From what I read, I found it interesting that biwomen seem to have been the organizers and that there have been various attempts to increase the structure but it has remained a TO thing. Lesbians welcomed the biwomen organization to some major events in their own history and that was interesting. It seems to have been done to acknowledge bisexuals...but this was all done by women for supporting women...no guys in the historical structure. Its like bimen just hung back politically in the TO binetwork history. I find it interesting that biwomen meet one night a month. Biguys meet one night a month and then there is a meeting of both men and women. That in itself is intriguing as to why they believe in these joint and separate meetings. There must be needs why this is done. The village may be seen as a tourist place for those interested in "looking" at the GLBT people. People watching is a main event I suspect...lol

It makes me wonder why people would want to attend such meetings. Some have posted here that it is to increase the public awareness and that is a political action. Yet, the Toronto group meets three times a month broken down to gender and so there must be needs beyond the political.

I also found it interesting in the Toronto bi history that there were major ebbs and flows in the attendance of these meetings. The history points out that at times very few bisexual women showed and one point no one. The biwomen's group folded in to what it became today and I'm guessing but it looks like to include bimen into the group. So, there must have been other factors. Still the website part of the network's history tells of the difficulty in keeping such an organization surviving. They don't always meet in the "gay 519 building". The biwomen meet and the joint meeting with men and women meets in the "gay 519 centre" but the bimen meet elsewhere when they meet separately. I'm guessing that is intentional (and I think that I might like that) but there may be other reasons.

As far as gay men reacting to bisexuals, I don't think that most care one way or other in the village itself. I mean how would a biguy behave in the gay village? Would he stand out? I think that any discrimination probably would take place politically and subtly within the power structure of places like 519. I don't go to the village very often and don't recall any gay man showing bigotry towards bisexuals but I have read the words of gay bigots on websites.

[slipnslide]

I still don't get this whole thread. Why do bisexuals need to segregate themselves? Simply for political reasons? Who has the time or desire for that? Is everyone else's life not so busy nowadays that the thought of meeting a group of bisexuals simply because they're bisexuals seem ridiculous? I like chocolate cake but I'm not going to meetings about it.

It's sort of like Pride events. Of all the gay and bi guys I've met only one participates in Pride. The rest think it's ridiculous and don't want to associate themselves with it.

[void()]

ROFLMAO

I think I concur with the last poster, save for adding each of us ought to have a healthy dose of courage and personal responsibility. Pretty much sums everything I've tried saying over years of being here. Beyond that, the standard Internet Disclaimer applies. YMMV.

[ChicagoNormalGuy]

If being Bi was easy, this website would be bigger than Facebook and we'd all use our real names instead of the supposedly witty nicknames we've chosen.

If you don't like the way the world is, change it. Get enough people to agree with you and eventually it's a revolution.

I'm perfectly happy with LGBT community here in Chicago as I was when I lived in L.A. If you've got something better, bring it on. I'll listen.

[elian]

I am very tired of the labels, I just want people to realize that I don't want to sleep with a sheep or a toaster and accept me for who I am, and I would be glad to do the same for them.

It bothers me that people look upon a man and a woman kissing in public differently than they look at two men, or two women kissing in public - ESPECIALLY around the Holidays. But that only makes sense if you understand that being LGBT is not a choice and in the end it's about love and bringing people together.

I don't go to many pride things but when I do it's never about flaunting anything, it's about the opportunity to be around people who are accepting of diversity - and there certainly are many moderate people who do accept diversity.

I guess I admire the folks who can stand up and scream for their rights, the best I can do is stand on the side of the road near a busy intersection on Valentine's Day in 40MPH wind, holding up a relatively small sign that says "God is Love".

I don't admire my sign as much as the one that says "Together for 20 years, wish we could get married".

If done correctly rights for any minority ultimately work toward rights for all people - I know that fundamentalists see it as "erosion on a slippery slope" but to me it's about justice and compassion. I guess it always will be unless I go completely off the deep end..which is a possibility..

I mean I have to do a certain amount of lying to myself to REMAIN centered and compassionate and not just say "f'ck you and f'ck the world". The thing is growing up in my teen years I WAS motivated by anger and spite but the truth is life is just too short to be angry all the time - you miss way too much being that way..you miss what is really important about living.

[Katja]

While discussing sexuality with a journalist friend the other day over coffee he articulated a theory about bisexuality within the GLBT world that gave me some food for thought.

His opinion for what it's worth (for he is a straight man whose specialism is climate change and the environment, not social or gender issues) based on his knowledge of what he refers to as the 'queer' world is that such is the anitipathy of so much of the gay and lesbian community towards bisexuals, and the commonly held view that bisexuals are not bisexual but closet gay people who because of social pressure within society and the circumstances they find themselves in, sit on the fence or take their little pleasures where they can find them. That it is a simple matter for them to accept bisexuals within their community knowing that many will ultimately become honest enough to admit to their sexuality and so they are happy to bide their time. Keeping them within the GLBT world also gains them access to the minds of bisexual people and time to work on them not to convert, but to awaken the truth of their sexuality.

In respect of those who do not accept their sexuality as gay or lesbian, there is a complete lack of respect, and consideration of them as social 'whores' who either deny their reality or lack the courage to be honest about themselves, but being 'selfish bastards' (his words) will take almost any risk to satisfy their craving for their own gender.

His theory is formulated upon some years of discussion with friends and colleagues who are themselves gay, and he tells me to a lesser extent bisexual, not so much as a result of what they have said as a whole but by piecing together the pieces of a jigsaw.

The fact that bisexuals are within the overal GLBT umbrella is quite acceptable to such people, not least because they accept that to further gay rights (and he drops the word 'queer' here') that they are happy to take on board such confused misfits because allies are not something they can discard lightly and some are quite honest enough to admit that there are far more 'bisexual' people in this world than gay, whatever polls and studies tell us, because their circumstances are such that far more keep themselves hidden from view.

My friend is not anti gay or bisexual but is a liberal and progressive man who has always been supportive of gay rights. So he is saying nothing born out of prejudice. His view is that whatever the reasons for bisexuals being within the GLBT it is not in their interests to break from it. 'Unity is strength' to use a more overtly political cliche.

Is it possible that the gay and lesbian community is so devious and unscrupulous? No gay or lesbian has ever postulated this theory to me and it is the first time I have ever heard it. If it is true it does show that within much of the gay and lesbian world there are many who have complete contempt for those of us who are not gay or lesbian and a self interest which is without principle. There is contained within it an arrogant assertion that we do not know our own heart and mind.

I do not accept his theory because it is so new to me, but it has made me view the world with slightly different eyes, for we know that some gay and lesbian people do not believe bisexuality is possible, and that there may be a grain of truth in it. I am no great activist in gay and bisexual matters but even if this postulation is correct I see no advantage of bisexual people breaking from the GLBT movement. It is in our interests to continue to support the real issues whatever lesbian and gay people think of us, and continue to argue to be accepted for what we are within that movement, and gain the respect that we are so often denied.

[void()]

"Is it possible that the gay and lesbian community is so devious and unscrupulous?"

Succinctly, yes it is possible and in fact realized. It stems from the aversion homosexuals posit upon bisexuals, as you elucidated prior.

"His opinion for what it's worth (for he is a straight man whose specialism is climate change and the environment, not social or gender issues) based on his knowledge of what he refers to as the 'queer' world is that such is the anitipathy of so much of the gay and lesbian community towards bisexuals, and the commonly held view that bisexuals are not bisexual but closet gay people who because of social pressure within society and the circumstances they find themselves in, sit on the fence or take their little pleasures where they can find them. That it is a simple matter for them to accept bisexuals within their community knowing that many will ultimately become honest enough to admit to their sexuality and so they are happy to bide their time."

Many people here also opine similar and have for some time, now. I find it difficult to realize someone would not have seen this in the fora, as it such a commonality amongst threads. Hate and fear which causes it, are quite devious in their plots of grandeur and domination. To borrow from Oliver Hazard Perry:

"We have met the enemy and they are ours (http://www.history.navy.mil/trivia/trivia02.htm)..."

Fear can be set aside. Yes it will remain but so do we. You see? Energy can not be create nor destroyed. We are mass, a solidified form of energy. We're a part of the infinite and eternal energy know as love. So, we continue on despite fear. The choice to continue or not is given to each respectively. You may choose being happy or sad, either way, there you are. To reiterate, it is what it is and you can accept it and move forward, or not. If your 'way' is blocked, go around the obstacle.

Soon enough, our stream of courageous will have smoothed down the pebble of fear! Then, a mountain of hate will crumble because that pebble is a keystone to lynch hate in reality. This is how we teach, lead, by example. Once people see us being courageous, they will follow suit. Differences will no longer matter.

Of course, I would be the ultimate fool to say to you a world without hate may exist. We all know that is not so, unfortunately. But we may make our world as hate free as we are able, this will surely liberate us the more.

Ideas are bulletproof and infectious. This is one I have and it is apparently shared by others. If the idea bothers you, frightens you, perhaps you've cause to fear. Are you maybe yet another pebble we go around? I am not accusing nor assailing, merely expanding focus.

Excuse me now, the moment has passed.

[Briar Rose]

Have any of you all read this?

http://www.kenjiyoshino.com/articles/epistemiccontract.pdf

It's worth reading. He lays out an impressive argument that both the straight population and the gay population have reasons to engage in bisexual erasure. It's very academic but worth the read if you haven't run across it.

I do think it may be US specific but if there is a parallel situation in other countries that would be interesting information.

I wasn't particularly political or activist before I ran across this site. Being here has actually made me want to get more involved because it's clear to me that we don't know a lot about who we are as a population group. If, as the SF health report indicated, the bi population isn't getting bi-specific research money, that makes sense. We are a fairly large (How large? We don't really know as far as I can tell. In part because there is apparently a definition issue.) and diverse population. If no one is studying fluid sexuality and it's expressions in a statistically significant population, how can we know? We know ourselves as individuals and as small groups of people. We aren't getting the big picture.

But, we have to be seen and also be seen as important enough to study, to get to be studied. Which is why I am considering becoming more politically active. For me, political activism is likely a manifestation of care-taking. :)

So, is it worth separating out? In some ways, (here in the US anyway) I think the guys will have to answer that one because while the talking heads of the gay community will condescend to publicly admit that female bisexuals exist; the ones who are getting the most public negation by the popularly well-known LGBTQ establishment (who are mostly white, middle-class college educated gay men here in the states btw) are bisexual guys. The female bi voice seems to be heard, if patted on the head and not taken too seriously; the male, not so much.

Judging from the thread, it matters to some people here, and not at all to others--which is pretty standard, if you think about it.

The flip side of this for me, is that as a neo-Pagan, I am very aware of the value of "safe space." If many bi folks, including me, don't feel safe in LGBTQ space; imo, there may be a valid argument for the need to herd cats and try to create some.

Isn't that what Drew's done here in this corner of the internet? Thanks, Drew!

[tenni]

"Is it possible that the gay and lesbian community is so devious and unscrupulous?"

Katja

The idea that bisexuals are not really tolerated in the GL community has been stated many times. In the study that was reported out of San Francisco recently, points out how the bisexual community is not served well at all by the political forces within the GLBT community. They use the statistic to include bisexuals to get funding but do not meet the needs of the bisexuals in their programmes nor on their boards. There is the aspect of bi erasure that is reported by some more political bisexual sites than this particular site.

As I read your post, I reflected upon just how are bisexuals similar to gays and lesbians and how are we different?

Beyond the fact that we are sexually attracted to same sex and some are emotionally attracted to same sex as well is the obvious way how we are similar to gays. When I enter into a conversation with some gay people, I find that there is a difference in attitude from them to myself. Even when I read some the thoughts of those who may be more on a scale leaning closer to straight or closer to gay, there can be a difference in attitude between them. Some that lean closer to same sex activity can also show displeasure with those who may not act upon their sexual attraction but still claim to be bisexual. Similarly, I find on this site a tendency to scream "troll" if someone posts stronger attitudes towards same sex activities and thoughts. It started off as having some legitimacy when the "troll" personally attacked a more straight thinking poster. Now, the word "troll" is thrown at another person for just expressing ideas that are not the "mainstream" of this site or asking ridiculous (in some minds) questions.


How bisexuals explore their attraction to both genders is the clearly major difference between us and the GL group. It also distinguishes us from straights. It seems that there are so many different ways .

One of the minor examples of differences between gay and bisexual men is the use of terms of endearment such as "honey". There is a section of bisexual men who are just not comfortable with such language being used by other men to refer to themselves. They reserve such language for interacting between themself and women. Of course, being so diverse, some bisexual men will claim that they are most comfortable with another man calling them "honey". Is it fear as voidy states or something else?

Add to that soup, the fact that some bisexuals have this ebb and flow of attraction and it is no wonder. It may be that only bisexuals can really understand themselves as to how much they are attracted to same sex or opposite sex at differing points in their lives. We can be straight living for a section of our lives and same sex living for other sections of our lives. We can want both at the same time. Even then want different levels of interacting with same and opposite genders. I suspect that a lot of bisexuals just do not feel comfortable or hold close enough attitudes similar to gays to "fit in".

I am inclined to agree with Briar that it seems to be bisexual men just as gay men are the ones that more overt political reaction and rejection but I may be wrong. Bisexual men may be the ones who feel that they have more to lose by being openly bi. They may be the ones to hold back. A I wrote previously, I found it fascinating that it was biwomen who lead the way in establishing the Toronto Bi Network and not the men. The men are not comfortable even meeting at the gay centre it seems (not sure on that though but they don't meet in the gay centre with other bimen alone)

[Pasadenacpl2]

You're not even bisexual at all so your opinion on what we bisexuals should do or what the bisexual community should do are all a moot point.

Your troll is showing.

Pasa

[tenni]

lol
The trollism accusation.

Accusations of being a troll for stating that it is bisexuals and not heterosexuals that should be participating in this decision. Although heterosexuals may be supportive of bisexuals determining what bisexuals believe, that is quite different from a heterosexual being a verbal dominate force and throwing out a victim card.

[Long Duck Dong]

thanks katja

part of the issue is the way that gays and lesbians view bisexuals.....

as a more fuild attraction group, bisexuals are seen more as people with kinks and fetishes than a actual sexuality identity, and the group most responsible for that is none other than the bisexual community.....

look at the gay and lesbian and hetero community and you see groups that have a solid foundation as their main point ( partners and attraction )

the bisexual group however, differs in that you will have the main point that ranges from I am a person that perfers, loves and desires a gender and a attraction to the genitalia of the other gender..... right thru to the I am a person that wants needs and functions best with both genders equally....

where the main divide starts, is with the * bisexuals have it hard too * argument.... because the majority of bisexuals have been able to blend into social very well.... while lesbians and gays have not......

discreetly made liaisons are not on the same level as full natured partnerships.... and for a lot of bisexuals, the discreet liaisons fulfilled their desires and they maintained the * acceptable * image of a opposite gender partner.......

for the bisexuals that are drawn to the same gender, they are the ones that suffered most in the bisexual community... as they pretty much did have to live a lie like most of the gay and lesbian communities......

now in the present day, a lot has changed.... but there is still the issue of where do bisexuals belong.... and as much as the bisexual community want to be taken seriously as a sexuality group, they are running into arguments from the gay and lesbian groups, such as " you have a wife and a family, you like to suck a males cock " thats not a sexuality, thats a fetish, a kink.....

yet you put a bisexual that is equally drawn to males and females into the center of the * arena * and most gays and lesbians can not argue its a kink or fetish, so they go for the undecided sexuality argument......

personally, I tend to come back to one thing.... the gays and lesbians that are anti bisexuals, simply can not comprehend the way bisexuals think and work, as the gays and lesbians can not get past their own lack of interest and desire in the opposite gender and their genitalia.......

its a age old argument " we can not see how its possible, therefore its impossible " and that argument started with adam and eve and the creation of the world vs evolution of the universe

how I come to that understanding, is many years of talking with people in the LGBT community and studying their reactions and behievour.... and the same pattern kept emerging.......

we see the same pattern emerging in the forums, and that is mostly gay bisexuals are less tolerant and more likely to delve into personal attacks..... and a common factor is their * attacks * on females, be they hetero, bicurious or bisexual but very rarely, do they go after the lesbian members

its in the same way you will see them go after bisexual males but very rarely will they go after the males that are gay / mostly gay

the reason they are called trolls, is most of them have been banned for their behievour ( personal attacks, insults, abuse, harassment of members ) and they just make new accounts and come right back again and carry on......
and you see the same pattern start all over again

[Diva667]

Socially it would be interesting to see if you could actually get a group of bisexuals together in one place for any length of time.

FWIW I go to a knitting group & the majority of women there are bi (or at least bi curious.) The thing is there is no chance of sex at this meeting, no advertisement of it being a meeting of bi (or queer if you like) women. No chance that some straight or bi guy will hit on any of us, that we feel comfortable being us.

[Briar Rose]

I strongly feel that bi men are getting the short end of the stick here in the states. The most public face of the LGBTQ movement here are people like Dan Savage and Michael Musto--people who clearly state that bisexual men do not exist. Period. Or if they exist, they are a statistical minority. Or something else negative.

The article from the Stanford Review that I posted posits some real possibilities as to why bisexuality is so threatening, though some of it's a bit dated now.

BiDaveDTown, I can't believe you stumbled over the Teddypig thing! I thought hardly anybody but that relatively small community saw those posts. I read a lot of erotic romance and he is a major reviewer who carries a lot of weight in the m/m writer/blogger/reader community. By the time I found it; he'd closed comments.

I did find it interesting that he would grant my existence as a bisexual woman (because he's met lots of women like me. He has? That's nice, I suppose. I guess his blinders were off for us unimportant women.) but not yours as a bisexual man. Presumably, that makes you--as a male--more threatening to the definition of gay/straight monosexuality than me. Like somehow these spokesmen get to define other people's sexuality for them; though they risked life and limb literally for the right to define their own. That's some serious cognitive dissonance.

The other thing I found interesting was that he used the J. Michael Bailey study to support his contention. Every time a gay guy uses that in public I wonder what they are thinking. Bailey has strong connection to an anti-gay eugenics group. WTF? Do they not Google?

[elian]

Don't worry, even if we are "erased" apparently there's still an "epidemic" of men who want blowjobs from guys for some reason.

When I hear the word "erased" all I can think of is the old "Mr. Bill" show on Saturday Night Live

http://www.hulu.com/watch/111194/the-mr-bill-show-mr-bill-moves-in

[drugstore cowboy]

And no, I am not advocating that all bisexual people clamor to rooftops with bull horns announcing themselves. In fact, I choose to act straight in public. I do so to respect others, tradition, myself. Not everyone really must know I'm bisexual. Frankly, not really anyone else's business save for my lovers.

Barring that, we have and do thrive in the shades of invisibility. Doubt that will change much, soon. I hope it does but I'm realistic.

Bisexuals and even gay men DO NOT "live in the shades" or whatever you're claiming with your rambling post full of fear and drivel.

LMAO this is not the 1960s or even 1970s when people like Anita Bryant thought such things and wished it was true about bisexual and gay men "living in the shades". Even today you still have people who are like Anita Bryant who are spreading their message of hate.

You're posting about how people are rambling on about fear but then you stay locked in the closet in fear. :rolleyes:

By all means stay locked in your closet because of fear, it's your choice and your life.

To put it lightly you're doing a major disservice to other bisexuals by living in a locked closet and not being visible and claiming that it's your private life and nobody else's business. This is one major reason why people think that bisexuals aren't out or that we're rare because of attitudes like yours that, "If I'm bisexual I don't have to come out, it's nobody's business at all except my sexual partner(s')!"

The bigots such as Conservative politicians, Born Again "ex" gay people, and others who spread messages of hate wish that we were all invisible.

People like myself, NotLostJustWandering and others posting here who are out and not living in a closet of fear are out and not ashamed of our sexuality and are light years away from closet queens as yourself.

[elian]

You may be right that we now enjoy more freedom than we ever have. Bisexual, gay, lesbian and transgender people are just that, people - to claim that every one of them has to tand up and be a militant solider for the cause is to do a disservice to those of us who believe that our sexual desire is one PART of who are are as healthy, whole, loving people.

If someone is moved to act, and has the circumstances and talent to act in a positive, affirmative way for this movement then by God, move out of the way and let them do it. I have been moved to write several editorials about Freedom to Marry and I even managed to get one published but leadership is a quality that is best when shared IMO.

[DuckiesDarling]

Bisexuals and even gay men DO NOT "live in the shades" or whatever you're claiming with your rambling post full of fear and drivel.

LMAO this is not the 1960s or even 1970s when people like Anita Bryant thought such things and wished it was true about bisexual and gay men "living in the shades". Even today you still have people who are like Anita Bryant who are spreading their message of hate.

You're posting about how people are rambling on about fear but then you stay locked in the closet in fear. :rolleyes:

By all means stay locked in your closet because of fear, it's your choice and your life.

To put it lightly you're doing a major disservice to other bisexuals by living in a locked closet and not being visible and claiming that it's your private life and nobody else's business. This is one major reason why people think that bisexuals aren't out or that we're rare because of attitudes like yours that, "If I'm bisexual I don't have to come out, it's nobody's business at all except my sexual partner(s')!"

The bigots such as Conservative politicians, Born Again "ex" gay people, and others who spread messages of hate wish that we were all invisible.

People like myself, NotLostJustWandering and others posting here who are out and not living in a closet of fear are out and not ashamed of our sexuality and are light years away from closet queens as yourself.

Actually I think the messages of hate in the bisexual community are being spread by posts like this one. Drugstore Cowboy, you don't know Void, you are making assumptions. How can there be any cohesion within the bisexual community when everyone is turning on each other like a pack of hungry dogs and one bone is thrown in the middle. How you choose to live your life is your choice, how others choose to live theirs is their choice. There is no right or wrong way to live no matter how many people like you strive to make every person who has a bisexual nature live to your expections. I truly can't wait for Void to log on and just decimate you verbally, he's good at it, I will enjoy it.

[djones]

It seems we are getting some conversation going here - a lot of people are feeling the same shut out and, if you will, attack by the established gay movement.

So, can we get out from under the rainbow - the rainbow of hypocrisy ?

Can we stand up for ourselves and stand for equality for all (gay, straight, Bi)?

Can we start organizing - for activism, sure, but also for fun ! Imagine, Bisexual speed dating ! A room with an array of men and women - boy, girl, boy, girl, etc. etc. and everybody gets the requisite three minutes or whatever it is to chat and then move on.

In short, going back to the main premise of this thread - isn't it time we step out and take our own stand ? The gl community needs us more than we need them - and more than they will ever admit to.

Instead of following them, let us blaze our own trail !

Oh, and I've said this a million times before, but lets ditch that hideous "Bi Pride Flag" . If anything screams out "unoriginal followers of gay pride" it is that ugly flag - a cheap copy of the rainbow flag with some "symbolism" bolted on to give some meaning ! Makes me cringe, not proud.

[Long Duck Dong]

lol djones.... then walk under your own banner, dude......

there is division within the bisexual community and like the churches of religion, it only takes one person with a vision, to start a new * church *

its a bit like black male lgbt groups etc.......they are a seperate identity under the umbrella of the LGBT community....

cos of the issues within our own ranks as to who is actually allowed to * fit the criteria * of being bisexual, and who is the voice for the bisexual community..... the bisexual community has become distanced within its own community......

and thats pretty much how religion imploded and the splinter churches were created....... yet they all claim to speak the truth.....

[drugstore cowboy]

Duckies Darling That's nice dear.

I really don't care what you want to see or what Void claims with more flawed arguments and more circular logic you and he are such a fans of, since he lives in fear and it's his choice to do this and live in a world of fear and theory, and not in actual reality like the rest of us.

If he wants to stay locked inside his closet and stay a closet queen it's his choice and his pathetic life that he's going to have to live inside his locked closet.

While bisexuals like myself, NotLost, and others actually work towards equality and bisexual visibility and bisexual rights while he doesn't do anything at all.

Arguments and reasoning for staying closeted don't hold water at all to anyone that's living in reality and living in 2011.

Coming out as bisexual is the only way we're going to get visibility, understanding, equality, and respect as bisexuals.

[DuckiesDarling]

Duckies Darling That's nice dear.

I really don't care what you want to see or what Void claims with more circular logic you and he are such a fans of, since he lives in fear and it's his choice to do this and live in a world of fear and theory, and not in actual reality like the rest of us.

If he wants to stay locked inside his closet and stay a closet queen it's his choice and his pathetic life that he's going to have to live inside his locked closet, while bisexuals like myself, NotLost, and others actually work towards equality and bisexual visibility and bisexual rights while he doesn't do anything at all.

Arguments and reasoning for staying closeted don't hold water at all to anyone that's living in reality and living in 2011.

Interesting, you want everyone to live as they want to live yet you contradict yourself by saying everyone should be shouting to the world they are bisexual. Complete contridiction, why don't you just say what you mean. That every bisexual person should be out there with "Kick me or Kiss me, I'm bi" signs on their backs. Yet, several people post on here all the time about how they are comfortable being bi and only a few close friends and family know. It's how they want to live and that is fully rooted in reality. In the reality where jobs are needed and lives have to be lived. Shame you missed the ride on the boat to the real reality.

[drugstore cowboy]

Yet, several people post on here all the time about how they are comfortable being bi and only a few close friends and family know. It's how they want to live and that is fully rooted in reality. In the reality where jobs are needed and lives have to be lived. Shame you missed the ride on the boat to the real reality.

They're still living in fear and many states and companies have non-discrimination policies when it comes to jobs, and EDNA is going to pass.

It's not like that by being out and bisexual or GLBT in the United States, Canada, Europe, or the UK that it's like you're living in a place like Iran or Jamaica.

Even in Iran and Jamaica there are people who are out as GLBT and they refuse to live in fear even though their lives are actually in real danger.

Coming out as bisexual is the only way we're going to get visibility, understanding, equality, and respect as bisexuals.

Then again I'm sure the closeted people will eventually argue here how they believe (falsely I might add) that "Coming out is telling people your personal sex life and what you do in the bedroom!!!!1"

[Long Duck Dong]

They're still living in fear and many states and companies have non-discrimination policies when it comes to jobs, and EDNA is going to pass.

It's not like that by being out and bisexual or GLBT in the United States, Canada, Europe, or the UK that it's like you're living in a place like Iran or Jamaica.

Even in Iran and Jamaica there are people who are out as GLBT and they refuse to live in fear even though their lives are actually in real danger.

Coming out as bisexual is the only way we're going to get visibility, understanding, equality, and respect as bisexuals.

Then again I'm sure the closeted people will eventually argue here how they believe (falsely I might add) that "Coming out is telling people your personal sex life and what you do in the bedroom!!!!1"

well then pm tenni like you have been and ask him to post his opinion as a closeted male.....as he would have more understanding and experience as a closeted male than most * out * bisexuals..

it would be better to have a opinion from the horses mouth, than your assumptions about what a closeted bisexual male would say

[Pasadenacpl2]

I was wondering how long it would take before we had the closet argument inserted into this discussion. Harkens back to the days of GayAZN.

Trolls. They're gggrrrrreat!

Pasa

[Bisexualnewbie]

Hi there,
This is what I hate about Las Vegas Nevada, supposedly Sin City. The place where all you dreams may come true as well as your fantasies.
It's really a lie made by the people who have enough money to make it happen for themselves.
The reality is that yes Las Vegas had a GLBT center but they don't even off a bi group, no where in Las Vegas does.

[Katja]

Coming out as bisexual is the only way we're going to get visibility, understanding, equality, and respect as bisexuals.

This is plainly nonsense. How we act as human beings is what will win us respect or not. You cannot demand respect, but earn it. If one has no respect for others, one cannot expect it in return.

[elian]

Are we seriously debating, out of the L, the G, the B and the T, which one of them is holier than thou? I would hope that bunches of people who know what it is like to be discriminated against unfairly would know better - but then again - prejudice knows no bounds.

What do you want me to say drugstore, that I am scared - hell yes I am scared, fear is a natural part of life and SOMETIMES can be very helpful - ESPECIALLY if you've been beat down because of no other reason than someone didn't like your face or who you choose to love. That doesn't mean I don't take a stand, but I also don't take every opportunity to pounce on people.

I admire that you are trying to motivate people to act but it comes across the wrong way. Void is writing to inspire himself and others to make a stand in whatever way they can AGAINST personal fear that can bind us for the wrong reasons. Not every gay person CAN be out of the closet. (For the record, I happen to know that Void is pretty open about his sexuality). There are plenty of LGBT teens who still live at home under their parents' roof.

I saw MILK, and I cried a lot - because they played "Somewhere over the Rainbow" - while they showed scenes of what it was like in the 70's for those first folks to make a stand..and I cried at the end - for the scene when a sea of light made up of individual candles flowed down the street toward Harvey Milk's funeral. I wasn't crying thinking of Harvey Milk, but of all the LGBT suicides, indeed ANY suicide brought on by self-esteem problems for that matter because any friggin 5 year old knows what it's like to be singled out for just being yourself.

I guess it's a discussion that's worth having but I get frustrated and angry reading this discussion, to be honest, the LGBT doesn't matter to me as much as the simple compassionate humanity.

[tenni]

I would propose that "Personal coming out" is not about Bi visibility or Bi invisibility. It is not about how bisexuals do or do not fit in with G & L grouping. Coming out may be a political action or it may be an individual action. To come out, is first and foremost about being out to yourself from certain perspectives. Some gay people have argued successfully that it is the political coming out that has brought awareness and human rights to gays. Would this work for bisexuals to increase our visibility? Not necessarily.

In the article that Briar Rose mentioned (post 37) Kenji Yoshino, writes about Bi invisibility and Bi Erasure. He approaches this in a very intellectual manner. There are points that he touches on and again one point is touched on again in the San Francisco Human Rights organization report last fall. There are far more bisexuals than there are gay people and yet bisexuals remain invisible as a group. In the GLBT group, more bisexuals than gays..imagine that! Is it because some/most/many bisexuals are individually not out politically that bisexuals remain invisible?

Yoshino argues that Bi invisibility is more about monosexuals (hetero and gay) and their reaction towards bisexuals. Yoshino writes about this invisibility. In his writing it is more of a systemic situation than an individual political coming out. I am inclined to think that it is also about the large (yet undeterminate) group of bisexuals who are not "politically out" but I suspect from reading Yoshino's thoughts that he would disagree.

Yoshino asks why are bisexuals invisible or erased? He gives many reasons from a strictly academic argument that is long and involved. It may also be difficult to simplify the explanation in this post. One point that he makes is that humans tend to be binary in our thinking and approach. It is easier and we are more comfortable. We have the option of Yes or No, male or female, right or wrong and so on. It is more binary to think in terms of hetero or homo and those exclude the possibility of bisexuality. Humans have more difficulty with greys and intermediary things.

ie........In a crowd of people if there are two couples being publicly sexual with touching and kissing, how will people perceive them? One couple is same sex and the other is a cross sex couple. (*cross sex is Yoshino's wording for male/female). People naturally have a tendency to simplify to a binary choice of straight or gay. People tend to think that the same sex couple is homosexual while the cross sex couple is heterosexual as a first thought. Bisexuality is invisible in the first thoughts of most people and yet even the cross sex couple may include a bisexual as well as the same sex couple may include a bisexual rather than two homosexuals. To be out as a bisexual may not necessarily easy to communicate. To be out as gay or straight is more along the first thought binary thinking of humans.

Yoshimo states "I suggest that erasure occurs because the two dominant sexual orientation groups--self-identified straights and self-identified gays-- have shared investments in that erasure. It is as if these two groups, despite their other virulent disagreements, have agreed that bisexuals will be made invisible. I call this the epistemic contract of bisexual erasure. To support the existence of such a contract, I adduce evidence that self-identified straights and self-identified gays both deploy the same three strategies of bisexual erasure: class erasure, individual erasure, and delegitimation. " He goes on slowly and methodically as only an academic paper will to explain these three strategies.

I would suggest that many on this site argue from a monosexual perspective even though they are bisexual. I include my own tendency as well. Our thinking is primarily binary of the monosexual nature as to how to live as a bisexual or what is "right" and what is "wrong" morality wise etc. We tend not to think in greys. It is deeply ingrained in us by our societies to think binary.

That is just my interpretation on some of what Yoshino writes. To read his article requires patience and some reading comprehension skills beyond a grade five or six level.(probable level most of us tend to read and write at on a daily basis) If you wish to take the time, you may find a lot of food for thought. You may also reject it as nonsense.

[sammie19]

Are we seriously debating, out of the L, the G, the B and the T, which one of them is holier than thou? I would hope that bunches of people who know what it is like to be discriminated against unfairly would know better - but then again - prejudice knows no bounds.

What do you want me to say drugstore, that I am scared - hell yes I am scared, fear is a natural part of life and SOMETIMES can be very helpful - ESPECIALLY if you've been beat down because of no other reason than someone didn't like your face or who you choose to love. That doesn't mean I don't take a stand, but I also don't take every opportunity to pounce on people.

I admire that you are trying to motivate people to act but it comes across the wrong way. Void is writing to inspire himself and others to make a stand in whatever way they can AGAINST personal fear that can bind us for the wrong reasons. Not every gay person CAN be out of the closet. (For the record, I happen to know that Void is pretty open about his sexuality). There are plenty of LGBT teens who still live at home under their parents' roof.

I saw MILK, and I cried a lot - because they played "Somewhere over the Rainbow" - while they showed scenes of what it was like in the 70's for those first folks to make a stand..and I cried at the end - for the scene when a sea of light made up of individual candles flowed down the street toward Harvey Milk's funeral. I wasn't crying thinking of Harvey Milk, but of all the LGBT suicides, indeed ANY suicide brought on by self-esteem problems for that matter because any friggin 5 year old knows what it's like to be singled out for just being yourself.

I guess it's a discussion that's worth having but I get frustrated and angry reading this discussion, to be honest, the LGBT doesn't matter to me as much as the simple compassionate humanity.

Elian, I like your post, and Katja's before it.

Once a few years ago, when I was in my teens, my sexuality was everything to me and it consumed what seemed to be my every waking hour. I was secretive about it because I lived in a rural backwater where victorian values still dominated.

My support came from the woman who is now my partner, a lesbian, and later my cousin, a bisexual, both of whom understood what it was not be "normal". When I was 19 I was outed after being spotted necking a girl 60 miles away from my home and my life became a living hell. Shunned, humiliated and treated like shit, if it was not for these two people, and parents who cared more for me than who I slept with I may well have ended my life.

Upon moving away from my home village, and everything I had always known I was introduced to the person who more than my partner, my cousin or my parents has introduced me to the concept of humanity, and the place our sexuality has within it.

This person is a lesbian herself, and what she has taught me is that our while our sexuality is an important part of ourselves, it is a very small important part. More than any other, she helped turn me round from a sexual animal to a more rounded human being more appreciative of the world around us and that unless we give love and respect to others, and show them compassion and understanding, we cannot expect it to be given us it back.

There are shitty lesbians and gay men who hate bi people, and who dont accept that we even exist. But two lesbians have played a huge part in shaping who I am, and have shown me that not all in the gay universe, nor within the heterosexual world think badly of us. Over the years they have shown me that if we are to progress the march of bisexual rights, we have to continue as in the past, to work with the entire LGBT community, and those who are straight who support us.

What this lesbian taught me is not to be afraid of my own shadow, and to stay in the light, not by shoving who I am down people's throats, but by standing my ground when necessary, and living as a human being before all else.

We can stay on the train or jump off while it is moving at speed. I prefer my survival to oblivion. I prefer everyone's survival to extinction.

[void()]

Bisexuals and even gay men DO NOT "live in the shades" or whatever you're claiming with your rambling post full of fear and drivel.

LMAO this is not the 1960s or even 1970s when people like Anita Bryant thought such things and wished it was true about bisexual and gay men "living in the shades". Even today you still have people who are like Anita Bryant who are spreading their message of hate.

You're posting about how people are rambling on about fear but then you stay locked in the closet in fear.

By all means stay locked in your closet because of fear, it's your choice and your life.

To put it lightly you're doing a major disservice to other bisexuals by living in a locked closet and not being visible and claiming that it's your private life and nobody else's business. This is one major reason why people think that bisexuals aren't out or that we're rare because of attitudes like yours that, "If I'm bisexual I don't have to come out, it's nobody's business at all except my sexual partner(s')!"

The bigots such as Conservative politicians, Born Again "ex" gay people, and others who spread messages of hate wish that we were all invisible.

People like myself, NotLostJustWandering and others posting here who are out and not living in a closet of fear are out and not ashamed of our sexuality and are light years away from closet queens as yourself.

You make a few valid points and in fairness I will address them.

"Bisexuals and even gay men DO NOT "live in the shades" or whatever you're claiming with your rambling post full of fear and drivel."

We do live on the outskirts of what the majority, or mainstream find acceptable. Despite some hints at progress toward being more enlightened, society changes ever slowly. Apologies, from my experiences this is drawn and I do not think you capable of telling me otherwise. For example, here in the United States, is it acceptable by law for a bisexual to be married to both a man and woman?

Another example, local rednecks in Small Town USA get together at a 'good ol' boys' meeting and not only burn the cross but savagely kill a guy accused of being queer. Nothing is done about the 'good ol' boys' because they're good 'God Fearin' folk and everybody else in Small Town just "HaHa YuckYuck's" it all away.

Again I apologize, but I do not seek conflict. And if 'good ol boys' had any idea, there probably would be. I respect myself too much to go to their level, which is ultimately violence toward that which is not understood. There are many things I do not understand. I let it go, maybe I'll understand it one day, maybe not. Either way I do the best I can with what is at hand.

I also respect my lovers. Elain needs his job, which is one working in an official capacity. There are lots of 'good ol boys' in that arena. He can't risk folks knowing. I know he allows some to know but that is his choice. I respect that, he respects my choices as to who knows here.

What carries trust and respect like that? Love.

Yes, I may fear. We all do. I have not claimed to not fear. Yes, I know I should perhaps 'step up' a bit more. But I am doing what I am able. I set aside fear as best able. Do I live in a closet? Maybe I do.

But here is a question for you, in all seriousness, are you telling me that bisexuals can not have a family, can not love others? It would seem with your adamant devil may care attitude you suggest that. And that may be part of why I do shelter a bit, no? It is a difficult balancing act.

[Long Duck Dong]

if there is one thing I have found.... its the ability of any person to be a asshole...... sexuality doesn't make a difference......

to me, its not lesbians, gays, bisexuals, heteros that dislike or hate.... its human beings..... and any issue will do as fuel for their dislike and hate of people, be it age, race, gender, sexuality, what they eat, drink or smoke etc etc

and its no different with the reason to dislike / hate the other person that we see as biased, bigoted, monosexual, polysexual etc etc..... we have issues with people and look for reasons for justify and fuel the dislike and hatred....

its a bit like the dan savage issue.... something that is constantly brought up in the forums...and the simple answer is ignore what he writes, but people want to read it so they have more of a reason to think he is a asshole......

much of the reason I like my group of friends is that we are friends first, our sexuality etc, is a non issue, yet its one of the main issues singled out by people as a reason to dislike us......

as for separating from the LGBT and becoming the BI and the LGT... it may work on a political level and a agenda level... but I have too many friends that are LGBT and I will choose friendship over activitism, cos my friends are not just a sexuality, they are people too, and dealing with the same issues that I deal with...... assholes....

part of the trouble is that we are blaming the LGT for a lot of the issues.... when we are our own worst enemies at times.. and that is something re-enforced by the opinion of a few of the bisexuals I have invited to join this site.... they have read a few of the threads and posts... and remarked about how some members are more opinionated and bi bashing than some of the bi phobic gays and lesbians that are spoken about....

can't help but wonder how many bisexuals avoid this site and their community groups, cos of the same reasons

[niftyshellshock]

You're not even bisexual at all so your opinion on what we bisexuals should do or what the bisexual community should do are all a moot point.

Funny.

Earlier posts: "Yeah, I don't like being discriminated by gay men!"
That post: "STFU YOU ARE NOT BI WTF DO YOU KNOW."

http://thesignalinthenoise.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/youre-not-helping.jpg

[tenni]

Nifty
The point is that a heterosexual is a heterosexual. Commenting on whether bisexuals should separate from the G&L is not about that heterosexual. Self determination is self determination. One vote/voice per bisexual. No vote/voice for heterosexuals. There is no reason for a polite heterosexual to interject on such threads as this. As far as discrimination is concerned, there is evidence that both heterosexuals and gays systemically discriminate to make bisexuality invisible. If you don't believe that, that is your position. Whether more bisexuals would be comfortable if there was a separate organization of bisexuals determining and advocating for bisexuals separate from G&L is the question. Certainly it should be understood that having an organization for bisexuals without heterosexuals in the positions of power should also be obvious. In the end though, it is a discussion and purely speculative.

[niftyshellshock]

I like how you garnered (though, I might be mistaken) that I'm denying such discrimination exists. I know it does. What I was saying is, dude shouldn't have a knee-jerk reaction when someone's offering an opinion. She may not be bi (and she certainly doesn't need me white-knighting her), but her experiences count.

I'm latino. Should I not comment on struggles faced by black men?
I'm also a guy and I have no uterus. Should I not comment on when women fight for their reproductive rights?

[Katja]

Nifty
The point is that a heterosexual is a heterosexual. Commenting on whether bisexuals should separate from the G&L is not about that heterosexual. Self determination is self determination. One vote/voice per bisexual. No vote/voice for heterosexuals. There is no reason for a polite heterosexual to interject on such threads as this. As far as discrimination is concerned, there is evidence that both heterosexuals and gays systemically discriminate to make bisexuality invisible. If you don't believe that, that is your position. Whether more bisexuals would be comfortable if there was a separate organization of bisexuals determining and advocating for bisexuals separate from G&L is the question. Certainly it should be understood that having an organization for bisexuals without heterosexuals in the positions of power should also be obvious. In the end though, it is a discussion and purely speculative.

I get the impression that you would cast out all who are sympathetic to bisexuals from this site and apparentlly from any other place where their noses poke to do with bisexuality. Would you so offend those without whose support we can never expect to make any progress?

It appears to me you love being invisible except for shouting your mouth of against those with whom you have some kind of issue.

I believe we have no option to remain under the GLBT banner but that does not mean within that 'organisation' such as it is, I do not support the idea that bisexuals have their own groups to further their interests, in the first instance within the GLBT community itself to make itself known and gain that visibility you so desperately claim to crave, but in the larger world also. Why not?

Many organisations break down into interest groups. Trade Unions for instance, multi national corporations, political parties, and often the interests of each group within those organisations are not identical.

I do agree that heterosexuals should not have positions of authority within the GLBT, but surely we can as we do now allow them to exercise their opinions? This site is not an organisation. To be honest I am unsure quite what it is, but they have an important role to play in bisexuals attaining a better life. Shut heterosexuals up if you wish tenni, but you are cutting your balls off to spite your cock. We need them and we need their input and its about time you accorded them the respect they are due.

[niftyshellshock]

I get the impression that you would cast out all who are sympathetic to bisexuals from this site and apparentlly from any other place where their noses poke to do with bisexuality. Would you so offend those without whose support we can never expect to make any progress?

It appears to me you love being invisible except for shouting your mouth of against those with whom you have some kind of issue.

I believe we have no option to remain under the GLBT banner but that does not mean within that 'organisation' such as it is, I do not support the idea that bisexuals have their own groups to further their interests, in the first instance within the GLBT community itself to make itself known and gain that visibility you so desperately claim to crave, but in the larger world also. Why not?

Many organisations break down into interest groups. Trade Unions for instance, multi national corporations, political parties, and often the interests of each group within those organisations are not identical.

I do agree that heterosexuals should not have positions of authority within the GLBT, but surely we can as we do now allow them to exercise their opinions? This site is not an organisation. To be honest I am unsure quite what it is, but they have an important role to play in bisexuals attaining a better life. Shut heterosexuals up if you wish tenni, but you are cutting your balls off to spite your cock. We need them and we need their input and its about time you accorded them the respect they are due.

I like you. You're cool.

[drugstore cowboy]

Funny.

You're missing the point by a mile of what I said in my post.

Duckies Darling is NOT GLBT and her boyfriend is not bisexual or GLBT at all.

She's in a relationship with long duck dong is not even bisexual or GLBT at all, since he's asexual and they are both outside observers to bisexuality and what it means to be GLBT, and outside observers to GLBT people as a whole.


its a bit like the dan savage issue.... something that is constantly brought up in the forums...and the simple answer is ignore what he writes

Do you even know who Dan Savage is?

He's a sex "advice columnist" and one that's very biphobic, transphobic, and he went on a racist tantrum when Prop 8 was passed in the state of California blaming it entirely on African American voters or black people in the state of CA-when if he'd actually looked up who voted he would have seen that white people and latinos voted in record numbers against same gender marriage.

He also started the hypocritical "It gets better" project which tells GLBT teens that they should just ignore bullying and repeat the pointless victim mantra of "It gets better!"-meanwhile he made a career out of trashing adult bisexuals and Transmen and Transwomen for decades. He also gives out bad advice that's just plain wrong about BDSM and kink and does not even practice BDSM or any kink at all.

This is bigotry and we should not stand for it or call him out on it, or ignore it and pretend that it does not happen and that it's somehow excusable.

People like Dan Savage are no better than Rev. Phelps of the Westboro Baptist church and Conservative politicians like Rick Santorum but he's gay and should know better so this makes him a hypocrite.

He also started his whole "It gets better" project just to self promote for money, fame, and a reality TV show on MTV which now gives him a larger way to broadcast his bigotry, misinformation, and hate besides from his writing, podcasts, and youtube videos he posts.

Savage is a media whore and he's OK on TV since you can turn it off. ;)

[tenni]

Katja
I won't waste any words on discussing a disruptive heterosexual interrupting this thread's thoughts any more than has happened. Believe what you wish.

"I believe we have no option to remain under the GLBT banner but that does not mean within that 'organisation' such as it is, I do not support the idea that bisexuals have their own groups to further their interests, in the first instance within the GLBT community itself to make itself known and gain that visibility you so desperately claim to crave, but in the larger world also. Why not? "

I'm not clear on what you mean by this post?
You do not support bisexuals having their own groups? Is that under the GLBT umbrella or out from the umbrella group?

I'm just learning about systemic bi invisibility. I'm not sure that we have the same understanding about what bi invisibility is. What aspects of a monosexual groups( both hetero and gay) impede finding and progressing better ways for bisexuals to live? It is an interesting point that as people who have been raised in a monosexual society that we, as bisexuals, may not be exploring how our interests in both genders may not be dealt with in the best interests of bisexuals. How does exploring this amongst ourselves not help? Whether there is sufficient support with the G&L monosexual umbrella grouping is the point of this thread.

Thinking in a creative, open way...brainstorming without restricting or inhibiting my thoughts......I wonder just what do bisexuals need that is alien to the thinking of a monosexual?

Gays wanted the right to marry like other monosexuals. We are not monosexuals why would we think that a monosexual institution is for us? As I think it was Voidie questioned. Why shouldn't a bisexual not have the legal right to have two spouses ( a same sex and cross sex partner) in a legal marriage if the bisexual and partners wants it? What else might bisexuals benefit from that is different from what this monosexual society imposes on us?

Just as many of us were initially confused, frightened when we realized that we were sexually attracted to both genders, new ideas on how a monosexual society does not have the only way for bisexuals may frighten us and we may want to remain monosexual in our thinking. We can only find out by exploring new approaches that are not based in traditional monosexual culture.

[Long Duck Dong]

katja, in nz, when we worked towards the civil union bill and rights for marriage..... we did it with the support of a lot of the churches, and with the understanding that the rights to civil union would apply to each and every person in NZ

the prime minister at the time was helen clark, a non religious lady whom only married to further her career and was childless.... yet she was strong on the rights of people to have a choice

our main opposition was some churches, religious outfits and part of the LGBT, as we were fighting for equal rights of all to have a choice, not just the LGBT, and interestingly to note, NZ has the same thing happening that is happening in the usa, a decline in the number of people that are getting married, so the argument used about how allowing the LGBT to marry, cos it will undermine the state of marriage, is something that has been proven incorrect.

while separatism may work in some aspects, such as in forums and groups, at the end of the day, if the bisexual community want more rights they can ill afford to practise a separatist methodology, as they lack the numbers to form any great union and presence, and with attitudes like what we are seeing in the forum, the bisexual community is not united and as supportive as we would like people to think... instead, we are a bunch of splinter groups under a umbrella and that is something that has been remarked upon by a few members about the lack of any real groups in their home towns.....

part of it is the local social network and the other part is the actions and conduct of other LGBT people... I saw the same thing in the area I live, the local lgbt group has internally imploded many times cos of the seperatist and elitism nature of some people over who has the rights to do and say what...

incidently its the same thing that is happening in this site, a number of members have quit posting or left the site, as their * voice and opinion * is hammered by other members, to the point that any attempt to start a thread or have a opinion, results in trolling, harassment and on going attacks...... and any wise person would know that the elitists in the site, may gain power over a site and whom has a voice, but they have the balls of a eunuch when it comes to any real power and control in society.... and what a hollow victory they have gained, as a post in a forum, is not a voice in society, its a voice in a storm, if the people that could hear it, are not listening to it

the real power lays in the hands of those that are not going to turn our backs on the people beside us, as they are the ones that will help boost our numbers when push comes to shove.....

[DuckiesDarling]

You know it's interesting, and I will be doing a poll later just to piss some people off :), but I only posted my thoughts to Not about what I see happening on this board. There are a few on here that set themselves up to judge whether or not a person is bisexual enough to be here, so my point stands. Not had an idea about people forming their own group in the hopes that more would join so they wouldn't feel "different" as some may do at LGBT groups.

I posted an opinion, I am entitled to that opinion as an observer of humanity. I have never hidden I am a heterominded person, I have never hidden that I have many friends that are gay, bi and lesbian. By the way, those people don't act the way some do here. They are just people and that's why we are friends. They don't stop discussing something or tell me I have no opinion because I'm straight cause news flash, most of what we discuss is our own lives and how we are dealing with various issues. If my gay friend had his new guy dump him he was just as likely to call me up to sob on my shoulder as he would be to call another gay friend, one of our bi friends or any other friend. Why? Cause I listened to him and fed him ice cream.

[Katja]

Katja
I won't waste any words on discussing a disruptive heterosexual interrupting this thread's thoughts any more than has happened. Believe what you wish.

"I believe we have no option to remain under the GLBT banner but that does not mean within that 'organisation' such as it is, I do not support the idea that bisexuals have their own groups to further their interests, in the first instance within the GLBT community itself to make itself known and gain that visibility you so desperately claim to crave, but in the larger world also. Why not? "

I'm not clear on what you mean by this post?
You do not support bisexuals having their own groups? Is that under the GLBT umbrella or out from the umbrella group?




Which part of plain English do you not understand, tenni? Is the use of a double negative so confusing to you? Let me help you out.

I believe we have no option to remain under the GLBT banner but that does not mean within that 'organisation' such as it is, I do not support the idea that bisexuals have their own groups to further their interests, in the first instance within the GLBT community itself to make itself known and gain that visibility you so desperately claim to crave, but in the larger world also. Why not?

While I may prefer that bisexuals work within the GLBT umbrella because unity is better than division in my opinion, those bisexuals who wish to can set up shop on their own as they wish.

[Katja]

katja, in nz, when we worked towards the civil union bill and rights for marriage..... we did it with the support of a lot of the churches, and with the understanding that the rights to civil union would apply to each and every person in NZ

the prime minister at the time was helen clark, a non religious lady whom only married to further her career and was childless.... yet she was strong on the rights of people to have a choice

our main opposition was some churches, religious outfits and part of the LGBT, as we were fighting for equal rights of all to have a choice, not just the LGBT, and interestingly to note, NZ has the same thing happening that is happening in the usa, a decline in the number of people that are getting married, so the argument used about how allowing the LGBT to marry, cos it will undermine the state of marriage, is something that has been proven incorrect.

while separatism may work in some aspects, such as in forums and groups, at the end of the day, if the bisexual community want more rights they can ill afford to practise a separatist methodology, as they lack the numbers to form any great union and presence, and with attitudes like what we are seeing in the forum, the bisexual community is not united and as supportive as we would like people to think... instead, we are a bunch of splinter groups under a umbrella and that is something that has been remarked upon by a few members about the lack of any real groups in their home towns.....

part of it is the local social network and the other part is the actions and conduct of other LGBT people... I saw the same thing in the area I live, the local lgbt group has internally imploded many times cos of the seperatist and elitism nature of some people over who has the rights to do and say what...

incidently its the same thing that is happening in this site, a number of members have quit posting or left the site, as their * voice and opinion * is hammered by other members, to the point that any attempt to start a thread or have a opinion, results in trolling, harassment and on going attacks...... and any wise person would know that the elitists in the site, may gain power over a site and whom has a voice, but they have the balls of a eunuch when it comes to any real power and control in society.... and what a hollow victory they have gained, as a post in a forum, is not a voice in society, its a voice in a storm, if the people that could hear it, are not listening to it

the real power lays in the hands of those that are not going to turn our backs on the people beside us, as they are the ones that will help boost our numbers when push comes to shove.....

*Laughs* Is my use of English so confusing to our commonwealth brethren?

[BiDaveDtown]

Katja
I won't waste any words on discussing a disruptive heterosexual interrupting this thread's thoughts any more than has happened. Believe what you wish.

"I believe we have no option to remain under the GLBT banner but that does not mean within that 'organisation' such as it is, I do not support the idea that bisexuals have their own groups to further their interests, in the first instance within the GLBT community itself to make itself known and gain that visibility you so desperately claim to crave, but in the larger world also. Why not? "

I'm not clear on what you mean by this post?
You do not support bisexuals having their own groups? Is that under the GLBT umbrella or out from the umbrella group?

I'm just learning about systemic bi invisibility. I'm not sure that we have the same understanding about what bi invisibility is. What aspects of a monosexual groups( both hetero and gay) impede finding and progressing better ways for bisexuals to live? It is an interesting point that as people who have been raised in a monosexual society that we, as bisexuals, may not be exploring how our interests in both genders may not be dealt with in the best interests of bisexuals. How does exploring this amongst ourselves not help? Whether there is sufficient support with the G&L monosexual umbrella grouping is the point of this thread.

Thinking in a creative, open way...brainstorming without restricting or inhibiting my thoughts......I wonder just what do bisexuals need that is alien to the thinking of a monosexual?

Gays wanted the right to marry like other monosexuals. We are not monosexuals why would we think that a monosexual institution is for us? As I think it was Voidie questioned. Why shouldn't a bisexual not have the legal right to have two spouses ( a same sex and cross sex partner) in a legal marriage if the bisexual and partners wants it? What else might bisexuals benefit from that is different from what this monosexual society imposes on us?

Just as many of us were initially confused, frightened when we realized that we were sexually attracted to both genders, new ideas on how a monosexual society does not have the only way for bisexuals may frighten us and we may want to remain monosexual in our thinking. We can only find out by exploring new approaches that are not based in traditional monosexual culture.

Despite what you see in the media, there are A LOT of gay men who do not want same gender marriage at all, or see marriage as a "right" that they somehow need or want anything to do with. These are not Log Cabin Republicans or politically Conservative gay men either.

They feel as though there are way more pressing issues in the right for GLBT equality than marriage and they view marriage as a silly, outdated, and pointless Heterosexual institute that is just a way to further divide people and separate the middle class/rich gay men who have houses, kids, and partners from the ones who are poor and don't have a partner, their own
house, or anything like that.

These gay men who are not in a minority despite what people want to believe, think that the issues of ENDA (Employment Non-Discrimation act) and Don't ask Don't Telln with the anti discrimination clause actually in it instead of how the Obama administration purposely edited it out, are more important to most gay men and GLBT people than same gender marriage.

When I've talked to these men they're fine with just co-habitation with another man and filing separate taxes and keeping things separate financially since it's simpler this way, and they can still write a will and put their same gender partner in it and he'll get his inheritance and it's a legally binding contract. Or if they were going to get any sort of legally binding consummation to their relationship they'd get a civil union and not a marriage.

With bisexuals they can either get a same gender marriage or a civil union which is the exact same thing with all the legal rights of a marriage. Or bisexuals can get an opposite gender marriage.

There's no need for the "right" to marry both a man and a woman since relationships between more than one person DO NOT work at all or last at all. Imagine the backlash of a divorce from two people instead of getting half of what you own or whatever money or savings you'd have worked for and saved up, they'd take it all and you'd be left with nothing!

Most bisexual men and women may like the occasional 3 way or tryst with a male fuck buddy on the side like Void does aside from his wife, but they do not want to marry more than one person.

Also not all bisexual men and women even want to have 3 ways, fall in love with both genders, or even want to be in an open marriage like you described.

Most people in general do not want an open relationship or an open marriage at all like Void and others have. Such "marriages" or "relationships" do not work or last at all.

"Marriage" to multiple people also brings up images of polygamy, cults, and suppression and abuse of one of the "spouses".

[void()]

""Marriage" to multiple people also brings up images of polygamy, cults, and suppression and abuse of one of the "spouses"."

Not always with the cults and suppression and abuse bit. It's actually sort of the direct opposite in our case. And no I'm not merely saying that as denial or craft illusion, it is what it is. We're all three each respectively, our own people.

[tenni]

"They feel as though there are way more pressing issues in the right for GLBT equality than marriage"

BiDave
Now just what are the pressing issues for bisexuals?

Do not discuss this under the umbrella though of GLBT. Refer to bisexuals. If we are discussing separatism we bisexuals should know and be able to state just what it is that we need.

[sammie19]

"They feel as though there are way more pressing issues in the right for GLBT equality than marriage"

BiDave
Now just what are the pressing issues for bisexuals?

Do not discuss this under the umbrella though of GLBT. Refer to bisexuals. If we are discussing separatism we bisexuals should know and be able to state just what it is that we need.

Being part of an umbrella group does not prevent us from discussing anything we like and formulating our own opinions on what we want from society in respect of bisexual rights.

So many of our interests are exactly the same as for gays and for transpeople, although not all, and being part of a larger more influential group shouldn't preclude us from acting to further the views and interests of bisexuals within that larger umbrella group.

Whether inside or outside what we call the LGBT community, each group, gaymen, lesbian, bisexual men, women, transmen and women all have some interests which clash with those of the rest of the community and each group, however many they are have to have at least some right and autonomy to pursue their aims. But their overall aim is almost identical and to all go our own way with no thought for other sis to damage us.

Separatism threatens whatever influence we may have both inside and outside of the LGBT orbit and threatens to marginalise us. We are already marginalised very much now which isn't the fault of gay's but that responsibility lies very much on our own shoulders.

Just who are you to tell people how to discuss an issue? We can't discuss separatism without discussing any threat separatism might throw in our faces. Ignore both sides of the argument and whatever comes out of it will be a botched job.

[tenni]

Sammie
I agree that both sides of whether to separate need to be examined. Just what bisexuals are gaining from being under this umbrella and what bisexuals are not getting needs to be defined. The accusation that there is a systemic bi erasure to make bisexuality invisible is a criticism. Under the umbrella are bisexuals represented within the system? Reports have been made within the past year stating that is not being done in certain communities. How much more marginalized can bisexuality be if it is stated to be systemically invisible?

Just what is being done under the umbrella for gays and what if any specific needs of bisexuals are being met? What are these common goals that you refer to? I can see that certain safety issues are needed in some communities for both gays and bisexuals who are publicly overt about their sexuality. That may be needed if a bisexual is behaving and exhibiting same sex actions which will be seen as a monosexual behaviour. Work place laws are another area but that again may be more specific to same sex behaviour. How are any proposals specific to bisexuality rather than a monosexuality aspect?

[Long Duck Dong]

*Laughs* Is my use of English so confusing to our commonwealth brethren?

lol only when there is whiskey involved.... lol

I was agreeing with what you were saying....

the LGBT has splinter groups under the umbrella of the LGBT, IE sports, social groups etc.... and in the same way, they have political and social agendas.....

thats why I mentioned what happened in NZ with the civil union bill.... it was not a sexuality bill that was wanted, but the right of choice applied equally and within that we found a common cause in many different places

there were LGBT that fought against it... but the reasoning was that the LGBT benefited financially from NOT being married and the civil union bill removed that, as the income and taxes laws were amended a few months later

it begs the question, what do the individual LGBT want as their rights... cos it was made clear in NZ that not all LGBT wanted the rights to marry as it affected them in other ways... and made them the same as every other NZer

[sammie19]

it begs the question, what do the individual LGBT want as their rights... cos it was made clear in NZ that not all LGBT wanted the rights to marry as it affected them in other ways... and made them the same as every other NZer

There isn't an answer to that question really, LDD. About lots of things there are as many ideas almost as there are people who are L, G, B or T. No matter what we achieve, nothing will ever be set in stone and become unalterable, and even if it was or could be, stone itself erodes and wears away to sand with time. Then sand begins its process of change.

Nothing is unchanging. About the best we can do is muddle along making the best go of things we can for the greatest number of people. Satisfying everybody is sort of mission impossible.

[Long Duck Dong]

There isn't an answer to that question really, LDD. About lots of things there are as many ideas almost as there are people who are L, G, B or T. No matter what we achieve, nothing will ever be set in stone and become unalterable, and even if it was or could be, stone itself erodes and wears away to sand with time. Then sand begins its process of change.

Nothing is unchanging. About the best we can do is muddle along making the best go of things we can for the greatest number of people. Satisfying everybody is sort of mission impossible.

lol I was thinking the same thing lol

there have been a few times that I have posted in the site, asking what bisexual rights do we lack and long for..... since people are always talking about bisexual rights

there has never really been a answer, cos we have almost everything as it is..... the two main answers were the right to same sex marriage ( regardless of if its used or not ) and the rights to the same protections, freedoms and services as others.... and honestly to me, thats not a bisexual issue, thats across the world and affecting many different groups and communities, not just the bisexual community.... and it only becomes a bisexual issue if we narrow it down to bisexual things for bisexual people.....

to me, the issues start when we advocate things for bisexuals only, that should be afforded to others as well, like poly marriages..... or LGBT health care centers.....

sure, we need LGBT friendly and allied doctors and medical care.... but could you imagine the outcry if hetero healthcare was started up.....lol....
our sexuality doesn't change our bio organic make up that much that we can not go to LGBT friendly doctors

trans people are different, while they suffer the common cold like most of us, medical and surgical resources for them are something that require specialists and experts in different fields to what most people would require in their life times and much of their follow up care requires specialists and experts... and to me, that is a key difference.....

[Pasadenacpl2]

Hrmm. Several points:

1. Whether individual people happen to want the right to marry, equal rights and treatment are essential to a free and equal society. If someone doesnt want to get married that's cool. That isnt really an issue of sexuality, but one of desire for that particular thing. LOTS of hetero folks never want to get married either.

2. Talk of marriage as a tool to keep the rich richer and the poor man down makes me giggle. Activist rhetoric with no clue behind the meaning if the words.

3. Polyamorous marriages/relationships can and do work. They work all the time. My best friend has been the husband to two wonderful women for 12 years. Many of my close friends have plural marriages/relatiinships that work just fine.

I read a lot of drivel being purported as fact. Education ...it's your friend.

Pasa

[NotLostJustWandering]

Glad to see this discussion is still going, albeit with the usual distractions of the same old feuds :rolleyes:

I'm sorry that I haven't had the time or mental energy to read the posts of the last few days, let alone begin to answer the many points raised, and still do not. I do intend to fully answer every relevant point and question once I can, but I may not even be logging in again until after the weekend.

For now, I just want to make correct a point of confusion that seems to be coming up a lot: separatism does not mean opposition. It means organizing ourselves separately from the rest of the queer population for the sake of visibility and community building. The main example of separatist action I am advocating is creating our own meeting places separate from lesbian and gay meeting places; many other actions are possible as well, but having physical meeting places strikes me as the place to start.

This in no way means we will cease to work alongside lesbians and gays on common causes, or continue having gays and lesbians amongst our friends and lovers. Cf Malcolm X's statements after his Hajj to Mecca, on continuing to build a separate Black movement while working side-by-side with White sympathizers.

Inshallah I will post much more on this topic upon my return to the city after the weekend, and if I have time while in Boston I will try to log in and at least catch up on what everyone is posting.

[void()]

No separation, we are all humanity.

[elian]

I will admit that an open relationship or threesome isn't really what I had in mind when I first started dating but considering the number of affairs and divorces I hear about these days sometimes I have to wonder.

Void and his family have never treated me unkindly, they are extremely hospitable, kind, generous folk. At first I couldn't believe that someone wouldn't be jealous but I always try to be caring and respectful to both Void and his wife. The way I look at it is that if he cares that much about her then she must be someone pretty special (and she is).

Because of the long distance it isn't ideal for me, but he has shown me so much love and trust where other people have just taken what they wanted that no matter what happens to us as a couple he will always have a place in my heart.

As far as I know the only cult I've been around recently was at the Shamu Evangelical Temple in Sea World - a couple of years ago - the whole audience chants - "Sha-mu! Sha-mu! Sha-mu!" .. and they have big plasma panels behind the aquarium that play inspirational videos with the word "BELIEVE" superimposed in the foreground - nice mood music..

The "Pets Ahoy" ASPCA rescued animals show was a lot more interesting - they had a cat tightrope walk down to the stage above the audience, and a dog that drove a jeep over to the ATM to get out some money and pick up his date for the evening.

As far as freedom to marry goes - I don't care if you call it marriage or not - but I would like to see the same CIVIL rights granted to every citizen/partner equally. There are ALREADY Christian and other liberal churches that will marry LGBT couples..

[NotLostJustWandering]

there have been a few times that I have posted in the site, asking what bisexual rights do we lack and long for..... since people are always talking about bisexual rights

I think our real jihad is raising awareness of bisexuality, dispelling misconceptions about it, and increasing acceptance of it. It isn't so much about rights. It may be that this comes up simply because a struggle for rights is what people think a political movement looks like.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Separatism threatens whatever influence we may have both inside and outside of the LGBT orbit and threatens to marginalise us.

In San Francisco there is a separate Dyke March on the day before the Pride Parade. Lesbians still participate in the larger parade but have succeeded in organizing their own parade as well. They did this because they felt marginalized by the gay men and their dominance of the overall queer community. Do you think this has further marginalized them? Because this is the kind of action I am advocating.


We are already marginalised very much now which isn't the fault of gay's but that responsibility lies very much on our own shoulders.

I am not disagreeing with you here, but I would be interested in hearing more about why you think this is so and what we can do about it. Thanks.

[tenni]

I suspect Notlost that those three points would/could be expressed in the form of rights.

It may take a little thought and reflection of a group like you are attending to contexualize the idea about awareness, acceptance, and dispelling misconceptions about bisexuality.

One contentious aspect may be that "dispelling misconceptions" may be difficult to reach consensus. The issues of bi invisibility and bi erasure are seed ideas that may lead somewhere. If this site is an indication though, I don't see much awareness, understanding and self acceptance as having reached a level of consensus.

[NotLostJustWandering]

while separatism may work in some aspects, such as in forums and groups, at the end of the day, if the bisexual community want more rights they can ill afford to practise a separatist methodology, as they lack the numbers to form any great union and presence, and with attitudes like what we are seeing in the forum, the bisexual community is not united and as supportive as we would like people to think... instead, we are a bunch of splinter groups under a umbrella and that is something that has been remarked upon by a few members about the lack of any real groups in their home towns.....

Agreed that we should all be a lot nicer to each other, but I observe much less nastiness in the face-to-face meetings I have attended than in on-line settings such as this or the numerous bi Facebook groups I have joined. I don't think this is a phenomenon restricted to bisexuals by any means. But maybe this hasn't occurred to some of us who know no bi community than on-line ones such as this?

As to the numbers: as a community we may be small and splintered, as a sexuality we OUTNUMBER the gays and lesbians. So why the failure to get together and form more visible and cohesive communities?

To bring things back to my main point: is this practice of always meeting where the mono queers meet really helping us, or getting in the way? I don't feel any affinity for the GL community or feel at home at the Gay Center. A number of people at BiRequest feel the same way; how many other people don't even come to our meetings because of that?

[NotLostJustWandering]

Do you even know who Dan Savage is?

He's a sex "advice columnist" and one that's very biphobic, transphobic, and he went on a racist tantrum when Prop 8 was passed in the state of California

<snip>

This is bigotry and we should not stand for it or call him out on it, or ignore it and pretend that it does not happen and that it's somehow excusable.

I am going to take a moderate stance on this one. While ignoring the influence of a prominent bigot such as Savage is to bury our heads in the sand, I think we also mustn't make more noise about it than the positive noise we make about ourselves. Let's not fall prey to reactionism or become so embittered by our enemies that we make our camp look joyless and unattractive.

Rather, we should take Savage and his lionization in the gay community as a wake-up call. It should alert us to the degree to which this community is run by gay white men who care little about the rest of us. I would have been ashamed to march in a parade led by this man. Such venues are not the best place to promote bi visibility. Let's be strong, proud, and do our own thing.

As for reacting to Savage, I think a call for public dialog with him would be better than angry attacks, let alone calls for censorship. Let's have an open talk with him, ask him where he gets his "information" about bis, and see what he has to say for himself.

[NotLostJustWandering]

I believe we have no option [but] to remain under the GLBT banner

Why not?

[Long Duck Dong]

Agreed that we should all be a lot nicer to each other, but I observe much less nastiness in the face-to-face meetings I have attended than in on-line settings such as this or the numerous bi Facebook groups I have joined. I don't think this is a phenomenon restricted to bisexuals by any means. But maybe this hasn't occurred to some of us who know no bi community than on-line ones such as this?

As to the numbers: as a community we may be small and splintered, as a sexuality we OUTNUMBER the gays and lesbians. So why the failure to get together and form more visible and cohesive communities?

To bring things back to my main point: is this practice of always meeting where the mono queers meet really helping us, or getting in the way? I don't feel any affinity for the GL community or feel at home at the Gay Center. A number of people at BiRequest feel the same way; how many other people don't even come to our meetings because of that?

honestly, I have noticed in NZ, that a lot of the LGBT spas and saunas etc, died off due to lack of support from any part of the community......

we had a member from the middle north island mention in one thread about how bisexuals often didn't go to LGBT groups....

so honestly I have to ask the question, what do people go to the groups for ? sex ? communication ? politics ? activitism ?

in a world where the net is easier to use, quicker and safer for so many, its not a surprise to me that online groups are becoming the norm for many people..... they can log in, say hi, lurk etc and disappear if nothing interests them.... and thats a lil harder in real life......

so I guess a good part of the answer to your question, is yes, bisexual only groups can be worth a try, but is there the support and interest from bisexuals and what will they want in their meeting area.....

personally, I would not go to a bisexual only group... as I know from experience that if you isolate a group from other aspects of a community, it takes about 2 years before the group will implode... and its generally because of a * level of behievour * that is deemed acceptable, or subjects of conversation that are acceptable,.. and there are always the people that want to dictate who can say what, when and how and who may have a opinion and who can not etc etc......

the same thing we are seeing in this site, with some bisexuals hounded cos they are * not fitting the mold * of bisexuality....... instead of a embracing the people in our own community and their diversity and uniqueness

[BiDaveDtown]

I was wondering if you marched in the NYC Pride parade.

I was into pride when I was younger but I stopped going when it became completely corporate and a mobbed pointless tourist trap like it is now in most major cities.

As for Dan Savage I do my best to ignore him but I do like many of the replies to this essay calling him out as being biphobic and a total hypocrite.

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/bisexuals/Content?oid=8743322

[NotLostJustWandering]

Originally Posted by drugstore cowboy
Coming out as bisexual is the only way we're going to get visibility, understanding, equality, and respect as bisexuals.


This is plainly nonsense. How we act as human beings is what will win us respect or not. You cannot demand respect, but earn it. If one has no respect for others, one cannot expect it in return.

Yeah, but you're ignoring the word "visibility", one of the key points of this whole discussion.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Can we stand up for ourselves and stand for equality for all (gay, straight, Bi)?

Can we start organizing - for activism, sure, but also for fun ! Imagine, Bisexual speed dating ! A room with an array of men and women - boy, girl, boy, girl, etc. etc. and everybody gets the requisite three minutes or whatever it is to chat and then move on.

Now, that's what I want to hear more of: positive ideas about what we can do to distinguish ourselves from them, and have a good time doing it!


In short, going back to the main premise of this thread - isn't it time we step out and take our own stand ? The gl community needs us more than we need them - and more than they will ever admit to.

Sho'nuff. More of us than there are of them. And the more things change, the more bis will identify as such, and what you say will be all the more true, I predict.

[NotLostJustWandering]

While discussing sexuality with a journalist friend the other day over coffee he articulated a theory about bisexuality within the GLBT world that gave me some food for thought.

<snip>

... the commonly held view that bisexuals are not bisexual but closet gay people who because of social pressure within society and the circumstances they find themselves in, sit on the fence or take their little pleasures where they can find them. That it is a simple matter for them to accept bisexuals within their community knowing that many will ultimately become honest enough to admit to their sexuality and so they are happy to bide their time...

<snip>

...they are happy to take on board such confused misfits because allies are not something they can discard lightly and some are quite honest enough to admit that there are far more 'bisexual' people in this world than gay, whatever polls and studies tell us, because their circumstances are such that far more keep themselves hidden from view.



I think your friend has hit the nail on the head, Katja.



Is it possible that the gay and lesbian community is so devious and unscrupulous?

Actually, I don't see this as shockingly devious or unscrupulous. It's quite in line with typical human nature. If a total stranger wrote you a blank check, what amount would you write in?

Our unconditional support of the GL community, acceptance of their leadership, and willingness to blend in with the rainbow amounts to writing a blank check. If they take us to the cleaners for it, is it their fault, or ours for writing that check in the first place?

Again, what I call separatism is not what most of you arguing against it have misinterpreted it as. I am not saying let's not shun the mono queers, cease to work with them on common causes, or stop having individual, bi-friendly members of that community as friends and lovers. I'm saying let's distinguish ourselves from them, stop following them around wherever they go, stand apart in our own places a bit, and reach out to those bi people who have not sought out bi community. Then, we have established ourselves as strong and independent, our support of the gays and lesbians will no longer be taken for granted. We will have a place at the table, and chips to play. Never again will we be expected to march behind a public biphobe in a Pride Parade, or expected to swallow biphobia in the very venues we go to find community and comraderie.

[NotLostJustWandering]

I still don't get this whole thread. Why do bisexuals need to segregate themselves? Simply for political reasons? Who has the time or desire for that? Is everyone else's life not so busy nowadays that the thought of meeting a group of bisexuals simply because they're bisexuals seem ridiculous? I like chocolate cake but I'm not going to meetings about it.

OK, Slippy, look at it this way: Some of us would like to meet other bi people in person so we can that which we can not do meeting on-line:



HAVE SEX WITH EACH OTHER.

Can you understand that much?

[NotLostJustWandering]

Ultimately I do see it [the call for bi separatism] based on fear.

You are wrong. I am in part motivated by personal pain: loneliness, frustration and anger. I am sick to death of being insulted by men and rejected by women I turn to for love. I want lovers who understand my sexuality from their first-hand experience. I feel sympathetic pain for fellow bi people who are suffering in alienation. I am angered by the hypocrites running the Rainbow Show who are happy to add a "B" to their acronyms to congratulate themselves for being so inclusive while ignoring and suppressing our voices. (That "B" stands for Bullshit, and there ain't no pot of gold under that rainbow.)

But fear? No. I fear no one, and I pose this challenge to the rest of the bi population in the purest faith that what we can imagine, we can make real.


Is it too much to ask that we drop the 'us' vs 'them' mentality?

Yes, it is. That mentality is not going to disappear from the minds of those who hate us by lying to ourselves that we are just the same as them. Black people did not gain their measure of respect and equality in this society by playing Uncle Tom or pretending they were White.

[NotLostJustWandering]

I don't know just how many bisexuals there are in this city (well, who does?) but it's painfully obvious that the overwhelming majority of bi people can not be bothered coming to these meetings.

If you do not know how many there are, then one imagines you do not
know each respectively. How may you judge 'they aren't bothered'? Have
you polled, asked?

OK, let's do the math.
Population of New York City: 8 million.
Percentage of Americans identifying as bisexual: 1.8% (source: latest statistics from The Williams Institute at UCLA Law School).

Now, assuming (LOL) NYC to be an average American city, there should be

8,000,000 * .018 = 144,000
self-identified bi people here. Contrast that with a typical attendance of less than 50 people at a BiRequest meeting, and I think it's obvious that I have a point in saying the vast majority of bi people here are not showing up. If "can't be bothered to" sounds too editorializing for you, fine; whatever you make of it, they aren't showing up at the Gay Center on the 1st and 3rd Thursdays of the month.





Need I mention, these meetings take place at the LGBT Community Center, commonly known as the Gay Center -- a shorthand moniker that says a lot about the place and how the LGBT community is perceived.

I do not know if you needed mentioning it but apparently you felt
conviction, perhaps even righteous indignation compelling you to do
so. I will also query, what is in a label? Does it matter what places
are called where kindred meet?

Uh, YEAH, it DOES. And it matters who else is meeting in the building, and who runs the place. It matters to some of the other bi people who meet there despite their discomfort, and so it stands to reason that it matters even more to some of those 144,000+ bi people who DON'T show up. The only part that's pure guesswork is just how many people would show up if they didn't have to rub shoulders with mono queers on their way to whatever room the gay administration decided to stick us in that day.


Borrowing from
Socrates and a few others far wiser; "be the change you wish in the
world." You are wasting too much time bitching.

Excuse me? I am being the change. I am bouncing these ideas off fellow bi people, here and elsewhere, on-line and in person -- the first step to making change happen in a community. This topic will be the official discussion topic at the very next BiRequest meeting, and I will be introducing it. I have started asking around for an alternate venue for us to meet. You, on the other hand, appear to me to be sticking your head in the sand and hoping you can make biphobia go away with wishful thinking and philosophizing.




I'm wondering how many bi people there might be out there who keep to themselves out of similar distaste for the gay and lesbian community (and there is SO much to dislike about it even if you haven't already experienced the rampant biphobia there.)

Why wonder? No, seriously, why don't you just regurgitate a biased
media's opinion all over a public forum of bisexuals?

Void, you're not talking to some hick getting his views on gays from Fox TV. I grew up in this city, and my views on the gay scene are based entirely on my personal experience with trying to fit in, and find acceptance, sex and love there. Yeah, I had my phase of identifying as gay. I had my phase of "I just don't want to be labeled." Easy enough for you to pretend it's possible for a bi man to be accepted in the gay community or just refuse the labels and return hate with love; I have been there, done that and know first hand that it's not so.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Yes I do think that for some things separatism actually does work but then you'd have gay men and lesbians claiming that we're being "homophobic" because it's about bisexuals only and not the G&L. :rolleyes:

And I care no more about their opinions than Malcolm X did what White people thought of him.

[Katja]

Yeah, but you're ignoring the word "visibility", one of the key points of this whole discussion.

I may not specifically have mentioned it but ignore it I do not. Bisexuals have always followed the lead of the gay community because almost all of their interests are our interests. What is not is the oft quoted gay and lesbian suspicion and non acceptance of bisexuals as really being bisexual, which is not an illusion on our part but in my experience it is not as pronounced or as deeply felt throughout the gay and lesbian community as many of us believe.

Bisexuals will not receive their due respect and acknowledgement for their contribution to the progress of of GLBT rights, or acknowledgement of their place in the world, even their right to any place in the world until such times as they come out in such numbers as to prove their worth and take that place.

Bisexuals are the most shadowy of groups within the GLBT umbrella, in that the vast majority are 'invisible', but they are invisible for a number of reasons. Fear of exposure because of personal circumstances, fear of exposure because they do not believe that, as yet, bisexuality is an accepted norm in our world and also because of simple shame. This is more a male issue than that of the female in the UK at least, but it remains true of both genders within the bisexual community. Acceptance of gay and lesbian leadership because of the aforesaid reasons, and to a degree because that is always how it has been.

It is up to bisexuals to become visible if that is what they wish, and become actively so in their interests and to simply moan and whinge about it and do nothing. Any responsibility for our lack of place in the world of the GLBT movement lies fairly and squarely upon our own shoulders. The solution to our invisibility lies within ourselves.

[NotLostJustWandering]

I was wondering if you marched in the NYC Pride parade.

I was not inclined to go. Then I got reminded that this weekend was the 50th anniversary of my aunt and uncle, and my presence was expected in Boston. Then I heard Dan Savage would be Grand Marshall and my last bit of ambivalence about the whole thing disappeared.

The last Pride parade I went to was back in the 90's. I marched with a bi group and as we passed the reviewing stand, the guy at the mike said "Oh, and here are the bisexuals. They don't know what they want." It shames me to remember that we marched on in silent anger and did not do the right thing: drop in our tracks and disrupt the parade with an impromptu sit-in til we got a proper apology.

The parade marched uptown that year and ended with a rally in Central Park. I hung around the rally for a bit while the musical talent played predictably cheesey, gutless gay music -- house or disco, I don't remember -- and the crowd lapped it up. I left and went across the park to join a different crowd at SummerStage, where King Sunny Adé and His African Beats, one of the world's greatest musical acts, had us joyously dancing for two and a half hours. I have not attended a Pride parade since; I've got too much pride.


As for Dan Savage I do my best to ignore him but I do like many of the replies to this essay calling him out as being biphobic and a total hypocrite.

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/bisexuals/Content?oid=8743322

Thanks for reposting. He is an ass, but he does present a challenge to us in this article that we should meet. We do outnumber them. We should all come out and swarm this motherfucker.

[tenni]

very interesting thoughts Atiq!! I look forward to reading more.

[djones]

Rather than snip quotes from the several posters that posit the idea that we need to stay under the "Rainbow" (perhaps best phrased as Gaynbow ?), I say it is rather like trying to be part of a club that doesn't want us. Would any right minded person put seriously time an energy to join a group that doesn't want you - and if you eventually joined, would go out of their way to exclude you ?

Why not take that energy and put it in to building your own group ?

We have the beginnings of a group and a community, we need only build it out and grow it. But we can't grow our own community if all of our building and growing is focussed on a different group.

And to reiterate what has been said, to separate does NOT mean to oppose - merely to build our own separate group, and gain our own respect and visibility. And perhaps have a speed dating night.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Rather than snip quotes from the several posters that posit the idea that we need to stay under the "Rainbow" (perhaps best phrased as Gaynbow ?)

I wouldn't call it a Gaynbow. It implies that there's something to be "gayned" from being under it. :bigrin: