Gay site AfterElton publishes article on Dan Savage's biphobia

[NotLostJustWandering]

http://www.afterelton.com/oysters-04-28-2011-dan-savage-biphobic

[djones]

More needs to be said and spread about Savage and his hypocritical and oppressive opinions - opinions "wearing a fact suit" to quote the article. Savage's mass exposure makes his views a real danger for Bisexual acceptance.

Thanks for posting the article.

[tenni]

The problem for me is that I think that I may be one of the bisexuals that lives up to Savage's slutty expectations of bisexuals...:eek:

I'm certainly not in transition to gay though.

Savage writes "the overwhelming majority of bisexuals wind up in opposite sex relationships."

Well, is he really wrong or too far off? A lot of bisexuals do seem to wind up in cross sex relationships judging from this site. The problem is that they do not always work for bisexuals. Some remain closed relationships and some are open to include a same sex partner as well...whether the cross sex partner is aware of it or not. Why use monosexual morality values for bisexuals?

I agree with him that maybe bisexuals are best off with other bisexuals rather than a monosexual? It is just a matter of taking his thoughts and presenting them in a more positive manner.

Do we have to live up to monosexual values to be "accepted'?

[LouiseBrooks]

I don't believe in the supposed prevalence of monosexuality...I think 90 percent of the populace are 1-5 on the Kinsey scale. The people who are strongest in their bisexuality can do so much good awakening the less perceptive to their latent urges. As for the 10 percent who are 0s and 6s, they are the real freaks......they spend their entire lives being squares, monstrous bulls, and cartoonish fops. These types are boring people anyway, and I agree that we should leave them alone. There's something inherently ridiculous to me in not being at all attracted to anyone who happens to come from a demographic that makes up half the population.

[drugstore cowboy]

I don't believe in the supposed prevalence of monosexuality...I think 90 percent of the populace are 1-5 on the Kinsey scale. The people who are strongest in their bisexuality can do so much good awakening the less perceptive to their latent urges. As for the 10 percent who are 0s and 6s, they are the real freaks......they spend their entire lives being squares, monstrous bulls, and cartoonish fops. These types are boring people anyway, and I agree that we should leave them alone. There's something inherently ridiculous to me in not being at all attracted to anyone who happens to come from a demographic that makes up half the population.

You can stay as bigoted and ignorant as you want but heterosexual people do exist and so do gay people, and bisexual people are NOT in the majority of the human population like heterosexual people are and have been shown to be.

If we bisexuals actually were in the majority of the population society would be a lot different and same gender sex would not be seen as a "taboo" the way some people do see it. Most people in society are not latent bisexuals or are somehow bisexual but in denial and do not know it.

Kinsey never said that 0's or straight people or 6's who are gay/lesbian are somehow "rare" and that most people are bisexual. He just used his now very outdated research and Kinsey scale to show the various ways a person can be bisexual or be 1-5 on the scale.

There's nothing wrong with being gay/lesbian or heterosexual.

Most gay men or lesbians, and even heterosexuals are not biphobic and do not practice bisexual erasure like Dan Savage does.

There's something inherently ridiculous in me in someone who deicdes not to form friendships, sexual relationships, or romantic relationships in someone who is either gay/lesbian, or heterosexual just because we happen to be bisexual.


Savage writes "the overwhelming majority of bisexuals wind up in opposite sex relationships."

Well, is he really wrong or too far off? A lot of bisexuals do seem to wind up in cross sex relationships judging from this site.

Nope tenni that is not true that most bisexuals somehow wind up in opposite sex relationships or with opposite gender partners.

I'm bisexual and my husband is as well, and we've been in a relationship with each other for decades.

There are actually a lot of bisexuals who are in relationships with same gender partners both on this site and in society.

People assume that we're gay/lesbian or they just might not be vocal or frequent posters on this website.

[Gearbox]

There's something inherently ridiculous to me in not being at all attracted to anyone who happens to come from a demographic that makes up half the population.
Yeh! How can you trust someone who's so obsessed with their own genitalia that they are sickened by the opposite genders?:eek:

I don't call THAT equality Mr Savage!:rolleyes:

[NotLostJustWandering]

Well, is he really wrong or too far off? A lot of bisexuals do seem to wind up in cross sex relationships judging from this site.

I know just as many, if not more, who have settled into a same-sex relationship.


I agree with him that maybe bisexuals are best off with other bisexuals rather than a monosexual?

I have also made the personal decision not to date gay men, and am more inclined to date bi women than straights. But that is MY decision, and no fucking mono bigot has the right to tell me what to do. Furthermore, my decision is based on MY needs, which are not the same for all bisexuals. For those who are happy with one partner, there is no reason not to date monosexuals, and what business does DS have trying to scare gays and lesbians away from us?


It is just a matter of taking his thoughts and presenting them in a more positive manner.

Sounds like an apology on his behalf. Please, no. This man is our avowed enemy. I'd as soon see Jews defending Hitler.

[LouiseBrooks]

I'm duly chastened, Drugstore. You use the word "ignorant", which is to me a fighting, highly impolite word when I suggest that a great majority of people have had either same sex attractions/experiences at some point in their lives. Many sex researchers agree with me. In no way do I suggest that we who are most dialed in to our bisexual urges get everyone who has ever had a homosexual impulse to pursue a same sex relationship. HOWEVER, your logic builds a tiny ghetto for the bisexual "minority" which we are supposed to cower in while we listen to the supposed vast and powerful (and often abusive) voices of the completely homosexual and completely heterosexual. I say that bisexual feelings are NOT rare and that people with some degree of bisexuality are NOT rare whether they want to acknowledge them or not. There's no safety in accepting yourself as being a tiny minority particularly when you're not. If you want to define bisexuality with extreme rigidity, I'm sure you can pare our number down, reduce our political potency, whatever...you can let the groups that CAN stick together define us, revile us, and abuse us. But I choose the other path.

[drugstore cowboy]

I'm duly chastened, Drugstore. You use the word "ignorant", which is to me a fighting, highly impolite word when I suggest that a great majority of people have had either same sex attractions/experiences at some point in their lives. Many sex researchers agree with me. In no way do I suggest that we who are most dialed in to our bisexual urges get everyone who has ever had a homosexual impulse to pursue a same sex relationship. HOWEVER, your logic builds a tiny ghetto for the bisexual "minority" which we are supposed to cower in while we listen to the supposed vast and powerful (and often abusive) voices of the completely homosexual and completely heterosexual.

LOL so it's somehow my fault for calling you ignorant about human sexuality, since you are?

I've read A LOT about human sexuality over the decades and nowhere besides with Kinsey's biased research does any sex researcher claim that most people have somehow had same sex desires or are somehow bisexual.

Kinsey interviewed mainly homosexual men, prisoners, bisexual men, and some heterosexual men and of course if you interview and collect sexual history of gay men, bisexual men, and men in prisons you're going to find that the majority of these men have (big surprise!) had sex with other men and had sexual attraction to men since they're gay or bisexual men.

If you feel this way about what I'm writing I don't think you'll like NotLostJustWandering's advice about how bisexuals should become separate from GLT people.

No this is not sort of any "ghetto" mentality. If you want an actual ghetto mentality start up a bisexual neighborhood or something.

Mr. Savage aside I would not say that most bisexuals are somehow "abused" by gay men/lesbians or by heterosexuals even if there are vocal media whores like Dan Savage who like to talk out of their ass about us.

I'm not defining bisexuality with extreme rigidity at all. Then again I'm not the one claiming that most human beings are somehow bisexual but in denial and don't know it, or claiming that it's somehow "rare" for someone to be gay/lesbian or hetero. ;)

[LouiseBrooks]

Well, as you say...you and your "bisexual" husband have been married for several, several years now. I doubt very much you DO see any reason for bisexuals to assert their power. You sit there on your high horse in your safe relationship (which you're pretty damned lucky to have) knowing that whatever anyone thinks about bisexuality, you still have each other. Your husband isn't sitting there afraid that you are going to think he's a faggot and less than manly if he confesses his same-sex desires. Meanwhile, the rest of us have to live in a world which is polluted by Savage-type tripe. I don't need any study to tell you that most women are threatened by any confession of a man's attraction to other men. And a lot of that comes from social conditioning/the dominant narrative about male sexuality. I DO consider that narrative a threat because it makes it very, very difficult for me to find an honest, fulfilling relationship with a woman. I'm looking for a girl that hasn't been spoiled by these poisonous ideas and you have to excuse me if I wish these ideas had never been given vent to begin with. Hey, maybe we bisexuals are a minority. But I have a dog in this fight that you really don't. So just move on with your comfy little bisexual-accepting relationship.

I really laugh when you talk about Savage's "talking out of his ass" like it is mere hot air from a talking head and not the view of the rank and file. Honey, Savage's view IS the view of the rank and file. And it will be until people band together and dispute this garbage. I'm glad you feel safe and not at all abused...some of us can't say the same.

[djones]

One thing is certainly clear - for Bisexuals to gain acceptance and respect :

WE MUST GET OUT FROM UNDER THE "RAINBOW" !!!!!!!!!!

Dan Savage represents the predominant thinking in the "LGBT" community - not really a community when the L and G often demean the B. Yes, not all gays and lesbians agree with Savage's views on Bisexuals, but the power structure of the LGBT "community" does. Why else would they invite a divisive figure to grand marshall the "pride" parade in NYC ?

Folks, the "rainbow" doesn't represent us. The LGBT community is really all about the L and the G. It doesn't represent us either.

Time to move on and stand up for ourselves !

[drugstore cowboy]

Well, as you say...you and your "bisexual" husband have been married for several, several years now. I doubt very much you DO see any reason for bisexuals to assert their power. You sit there on your high horse in your safe relationship (which you're pretty damned lucky to have) knowing that whatever anyone thinks about bisexuality, you still have each other. Your husband isn't sitting there afraid that you are going to think he's a faggot and less than manly if he confesses his same-sex desires. Meanwhile, the rest of us have to live in a world which is polluted by Savage-type tripe. I don't need any study to tell you that most women are threatened by any confession of a man's attraction to other men. And a lot of that comes from social conditioning/the dominant narrative about male sexuality. I DO consider that narrative a threat because it makes it very, very difficult for me to find an honest, fulfilling relationship with a woman. I'm looking for a girl that hasn't been spoiled by these poisonous ideas and you have to excuse me if I wish these ideas had never been given vent to begin with. Hey, maybe we bisexuals are a minority. But I have a dog in this fight that you really don't. So just move on with your comfy little bisexual-accepting relationship.

I really laugh when you talk about Savage's "talking out of his ass" like it is mere hot air from a talking head and not the view of the rank and file. Honey, Savage's view IS the view of the rank and file. And it will be until people band together and dispute this garbage. I'm glad you feel safe and not at all abused...some of us can't say the same.

LOL try getting out and meeting people and you'll see that most of the world including heterosexuals and gay men and lesbians, do not view bisexuals the way that you want to claim we are viewed with your "Pity me I'm a victim!!!" stance.

Yes I have a husband and we're bisexual. I don't care if some fool from the midwest wants to think that we're not since we know that we're both bisexual.

If you want to find a relationship with a woman who will accept your sexuality you should come out about being bisexual. You're not going to find any woman by hiding in a closet and claiming that "I'm bisexual everyone that's hetero, lesbian, and gay hates me!!!"

No Savage's view is not the "rank and file" as you put it. A lot of gay men don't even like him and find him to be a concieted asshole.

Then again you don't want anything to do with gay men at all, so how would you even know this? ;)

[tenni]

]"Sounds like an apology on his behalf. Please, no. This man is our avowed enemy. I'd as soon see Jews defending Hitler."[/COLOR]

Atiq
No, I'm not apologizing for Savage. I'm reading his words and I'm not really offended by many of the words. The part that I don't agree with is that bisexuals do not exist. The reality is that some people processing their sexuality may identify with bisexuality and then realize that they are gay. This Kyle person who tells Savage to f*ck you is partially correct to be angry with Savage but I think wrong about making statements about a ten year old. I doubt that a ten year old is clear in their mind about bisexuality and whether they are gay or bisexual. I'm in partial agreement with Savage and with this Kyle on youtube. A monosexual can not tell a bisexual that it will get better or feel entitled to tell us anything about bisexuals.

I also agree with djones about being more separate from the rainbow. The point being that I'd much rather listen to another bisexual than a monosexual whether its Savage on the gay side or a hetero on this site. The only place for a hetero or a gay on this site is to seek advice about being in a relationship with a bi. Don't speak for bisexuals if you are a monosexual or an asexual. I don't think that they can represent bisexuals.

I'd like to read on this site more of the thoughts from those bisexuals in a relationship with same sex.

[Diva667]

"Avowed Enemy" ? Seriously? I think that's a little harsh...

Besides Godwins Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)...

C'mon he's just another ignorant gay white man, the world(and thus the internet) is full of ignorant people. If you get your shorts in a bunch over them they will just drive you crazy.

Hate never solved anything. I'd rather focus on something more meaningful.

Let's build the community that we wish we had. If that is even possible.

[Long Duck Dong]

A monosexual can not tell a bisexual that it will get better or feel entitled to tell us anything about bisexuals.

I also agree with djones about being more separate from the rainbow. The point being that I'd much rather listen to another bisexual than a monosexual whether its Savage on the gay side or a hetero on this site. The only place for a hetero or a gay on this site is to seek advice about being in a relationship with a bi. Don't speak for bisexuals if you are a monosexual or an asexual. I don't think that they can represent bisexuals.


then we are very lucky that you are not representing the bisexual community, ain't we..... cos you are sprouting the same type of intolerance and biased crap that dan savage is sprouting about how bisexuals should not be tolerated or accepted as people.....

you are rubbishing the very people we are trying to get to accept the LGBT as people.... and to see things our way, thru our eyes

[tenni]

There is nothing wrong with being a heterosexual monosexual.
There is nothing wrong with being gay monosexual.
There is nothing wrong with being asexual.

They just are not sexual bisexuals.
That is the vast majority of people who self indentify as bisexuals are........ sexual bisexuals.

There is something wrong with any of the above claiming to understand sexual bisexuals and condemning us or our actions unless they want to be in a form of a relationship with us. Savage or any of the above three do not have to be in a relationship with us but they should not condemn our choices as to how we chose to live.

Here is an interesting you tube video on one bisexual trying to communicate an opposite idea of Savage. It is a bit smaltzy long but a good counter to Savage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt9frZ7FNBc

[djones]

C'mon he's just another ignorant gay white man, the world(and thus the internet) is full of ignorant people. If you get your shorts in a bunch over them they will just drive you crazy.


Problem is - Savage is a very loud, vocal, and exposed ignorant person that gets a lot of attention and his ignorance is accepted as truth.



Let's build the community that we wish we had. If that is even possible.

That's what we are hoping to do - but first we all need to realize who speaks for us and who speaks against us. Savage speaks against us, and speaks for the "rainbow" LGBT "community" . Hence, we need to be frank about the fact that the LGBT "community" is not our community. It may be hard for some to bring themselves to the fact that in order to build our own community, we have to step outside of the LGBT thing.

[tenni]

"you are rubbishing the very people we are trying to get to accept the LGBT as people.... and to see things our way, thru our eyes"

I agree with djones.

My eyes are not the eyes of the Gay, Lesbian or Asexual communities.

[Diva667]

It may be hard for some to bring themselves to the fact that in order to build our own community, we have to step outside of the LGBT thing.

Why do you believe it is an either/or thing why can't it be an also/and thing?

Dan Savage finally got attention because he started doing something positive (the "It Gets Better Project.) Maybe that's what we need to learn from him. As far as the rest of it goes, you're just feeding into hysteria by giving him attention.

[drugstore cowboy]

Diva Dan Savage started the "It gets better" project not because he actually cares about GLBT youth/teens but for self promotion, money, and an MTV reality TV show.

That being said he does not speak for the GLBT Community or even all gay men, he just speaks for himself.

Not all gay men or even GLBT people even like Dan Savage or what he has to say or claims as being true.

Most gay men, lesbian women, and heterosexuals of both genders are not biphobic and are actually fine with bisexuals even if they're not bisexual.

[Diva667]

Diva Dan Savage started the "It gets better" project not because he actually cares about GLBT youth/teens but for self promotion, money, and an MTV reality TV show.

That being said he does not speak for the GLBT Community or even all gay men, he just speaks for himself.

Not all gay men or even GLBT people even like Dan Savage or what he has to say or claims as being true.

Most gay men, lesbian women, and heterosexuals of both genders are not biphobic and are actually fine with bisexuals even if they're not bisexual.

Whatever the reason it was started it turns out that it is a pretty positive message & one our youth needed to hear (no matter whether it turns out to be true or not , actually.) Because keeping kids from killing themselves is a good thing. It's actually a good thing that our youth get to hear a message that isn't doom and gloom.

[drugstore cowboy]

The whole "It gets better" project isn't working that well.

GLBT youth, teens, and young adults still keep killing themselves.

I can understand how it might have been helpful had it only been about GLBT youth and GLBT people only but now it's become a total joke with celebrities, major corporations, and people who are not even GLBT at all making videos.

Furthermore it's very hypocritical of Dan Savage to tell GLBT teens/youth "Don't worry it gets better!" all while trashing bisexual adults, cisgender women, blacks, and trans adults like he has for decades in his advice column.

I did not write the below blog post but I do agree with it.

http://tempcontretemps.wordpress.com/2010/09/30/why-i-dont-like-dan-savages-it-gets-better-project-as-a-response-to-bullying/

[NotLostJustWandering]

If you feel this way about what I'm writing I don't think you'll like NotLostJustWandering's advice about how bisexuals should become separate from GLT people.

Not only did I never advocate that we personally shun G&L people, I even posted a follow-up clarifying that this is not what bi separatism is about.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Well, as you say...you and your "bisexual" husband have been married for several, several years now. I doubt very much you DO see any reason for bisexuals to assert their power. You sit there on your high horse in your safe relationship (which you're pretty damned lucky to have) knowing that whatever anyone thinks about bisexuality, you still have each other. Your husband isn't sitting there afraid that you are going to think he's a faggot and less than manly if he confesses his same-sex desires.

Furthermore, having been in a same-sex relationship for decades, Drugstore Cowboy appears gay to those who fail to see bisexuality, and in fact may be seen as a role model to his gay friends and acquaintances. Bet your life he's going to see the queer community as being a lot more bi-friendly than you or I.

Most of the biphobia I've personally encountered came from gay men I was either dating, who were hitting on me, or who I met in a cruisey environment. Gay people's fears of and hatred for bi people are related to partnering. A single bi person is going to encounter a lot more crap than one safely coupled away.


I really laugh when you talk about Savage's "talking out of his ass" like it is mere hot air from a talking head and not the view of the rank and file. Honey, Savage's view IS the view of the rank and file. And it will be until people band together and dispute this garbage. I'm glad you feel safe and not at all abused...some of us can't say the same.

I would say that none of us is qualified to say what the rank and file, or majority view, of the G&L population think. We are all making assessments based on our personal experiences. It is important to remember how subjective our views are, and not to dismiss each other's testimonies. In the matter at hand, the testimony of you, me, djones, and countless other bi people should suffice to show that biphobia is alive and well in the G&L population, and should not be ignored.

[NotLostJustWandering]

The reality is that some people processing their sexuality may identify with bisexuality and then realize that they are gay.

Yes, that does happen, but Savage abstracts a stereotype from those examples. Another thing that happens is that people who find themselves somewhere between the extreme ends and the middle of the Kinsey scale initially identify as bisexual, but after realizing how much hatred, fear and suspicion they receive from all sides, find it more convenient to identify as gay, lesbian or straight. In fact, MOST self-identified gay and lesbian people whose confidence I've won have admitted having heterosexual attraction. It's a self-perpetuating phenomenon, and people like Savage aren't helping.


This Kyle person

That's Kyle Schickner, producer of the bi-themed series "A Rose By Any Other Name."



who tells Savage to f*ck you is partially correct to be angry with Savage but I think wrong about making statements about a ten year old. I doubt that a ten year old is clear in their mind about bisexuality and whether they are gay or bisexual.

Speak for yourself. I've been quite clear on the matter as long for as I've had any idea what sex was.


I'm in partial agreement with Savage and with this Kyle on youtube. A monosexual can not tell a bisexual that it will get better or feel entitled to tell us anything about bisexuals.

LOL, he should just come out and say "it will get better... once you stop telling people you're bisexual!"

[NotLostJustWandering]

C'mon he's just another ignorant gay white man, the world(and thus the internet) is full of ignorant people. If you get your shorts in a bunch over them they will just drive you crazy.


Problem is - Savage is a very loud, vocal, and exposed ignorant person that gets a lot of attention and his ignorance is accepted as truth.

A widely published sex advice columnist who has been in the business for something like 15 years. Recently appointed Grand Marshall of the NYC Pride Parade without any consultation with the bi, women's, TG, or Black groups marching in the same parade. Do you need more evidence that the leaders of what has been called "Gay, Inc." don't give a rat's ass about us, and take our support for granted?

Sure, Diva667, it's more important to do positive work than focus on the evil of others. But turning a blind eye to evil isn't being positive, it's being stupid. Problem with sticking your head in the sand is that your ass is left out for the world to kick.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Why do you believe it is an either/or thing why can't it be an also/and thing?

Why don't you take this advice of yours and apply it to building community AND fighting biphobia?


Dan Savage finally got attention because he started doing something positive (the "It Gets Better Project.)

What do you mean, "finally got attention"? People have been turning to him for sex advice for some fifteen years now.

[BiDaveDtown]

LouiseBrooks why not find a woman who is fine with your bisexuality and date, have a relationship or marry her?

That's what I did. Hetero women who are fine with a bisexual male partner are out there.

My wife is fine with my bisexuality and she knew when we were dating before we got married.

I've been single most of my life and I have not found straight people or even gay men or lesbians to be that biphobic.


In fact, MOST self-identified gay and lesbian people whose confidence I've won have admitted having heterosexual attraction.

I have not noticed this when it comes to gay men who I'm friends with.

They are fine with my bisexuality but they have told me how they have never had any sexual attraction towards women at all.

Some of my gay male friends have been married to women, had girlfriends, or had sexual experiences with women and did not have any sexual attraction to these women or any woman ever at all. They pretended to be heterosexual because they did not want to come out to their family as being gay or accept that they're gay men.

Or are you describing people who are bisexual yet self identify as straight or gay/lesbian?

[djones]

Why do you believe it is an either/or thing why can't it be an also/and thing?


Would be nice if it could be also/and, but if we are being ignored, put down, and shamed, where is the benefit in staying with the LGBT gang ? It is more like being in an abusive relationship hoping things will change. It won't unless we change - and get out of the relationship !



Dan Savage finally got attention because he started doing something positive (the "It Gets Better Project.) Maybe that's what we need to learn from him. As far as the rest of it goes, you're just feeding into hysteria by giving him attention

Savage says "it gets better" to teens, while at the same time making disparaging remarks about teenagers who identify as bisexual (see the article in the original post on this thread). That isn't only hypocritical, it is dangerous to the very at risk teen group this campaign is supposed to help.

By drawing attention to Savage's hypocrisy and dangerous self serving rhetoric, I'm not feeding in to the hysteria, I'm trying to alert others to the very real threats against our respect and acceptance.

[Pasadenacpl2]

There is nothing wrong with being a heterosexual monosexual.
There is nothing wrong with being gay monosexual.
There is nothing wrong with being asexual.

They just are not sexual bisexuals.
That is the vast majority of people who self indentify as bisexuals are........ sexual bisexuals.

There is something wrong with any of the above claiming to understand sexual bisexuals and condemning us or our actions unless they want to be in a form of a relationship with us. Savage or any of the above three do not have to be in a relationship with us but they should not condemn our choices as to how we chose to live.

Here is an interesting you tube video on one bisexual trying to communicate an opposite idea of Savage. It is a bit smaltzy long but a good counter to Savage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt9frZ7FNBc

There is a distinct difference between being asexual in the way you mean the term and the way LDD means the term. And you know this, and yet you keep using the term by your definition to brow beat LDD. Stop it.

My mom is asexual. She has had no desire to have sex in years (my dad's life must be hell). She is still straight and still thinks like a straight person.

LDD has no desire to have sex. That doesn't make him any less bisexual. Being straight, or gay, or bi has nothing to do with your sex drive.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

Dan Savage is wrong on a great many things.

I'll repeat that, so that I don't get labeled an appologist: Dan Savage is wrong on a great many things.

He is right about other things, however. Probably more things than we'd like to admit. We can discuss whether he's right or wrong without attacking the person. Or at least, I can, and I believe others can as well. There are reasons for some of the stereotypes.

Ever been to a bar and watched two chicks making out only to grab attention? Sure you have. I see it all the time. There is a reason this stereotype exists.

Ever gone out with someone who was "bicurious" only to find out they are too afraid to actually find out?

Ever had someone use "Bi" as a pitstop to gay because they were afraid to come out as gay?

He isn't wrong that a great many bi folks do predominantly wind up in opposite sex relationships. Look at our own website here. Look at the personals in your area and count the number of "MWM seeking discrete"... Or go to a local mens club and listen to how many of the men there getting blowjobs in the back room have to get back home to their wives. There is a reason for the stereotype.

WE need to combat the stereotypes, for certain. But we also need to understand why they exist in the first place. We can't combat the stereotype if we are blind to their source.

Sadly, much like the gay "community" we have folks who would spurn those who support us who might not be as bi as we are (as if there is some litmus test one must pass). Talk about cutting off our noses to spite our faces.

I'm all for the bisexual community actually forming a community that is independent of the larger GLBT community. I am not in favor of breaking away. Much like a local bar here in Houston has said that it will continue to be pan-sexual 6 nights a week, it will only allow men in on Friday nights. They aren't seperating themselves from the rest of the community, but rather providing one night a week that is for guys only (presumably gays). We should be doing similar things (supporting the pansexual community, while also caring for our own needs in a strong, and proud fashion).

Pasa

[drugstore cowboy]

My mom is asexual. She has had no desire to have sex in years (my dad's life must be hell). She is still straight and still thinks like a straight person.

LDD has no desire to have sex. That doesn't make him any less bisexual. Being straight, or gay, or bi has nothing to do with your sex drive.

Pasa

Long Duck Dong is asexual in the way that people who are asexual or involved with AVEN describe themselves. LDD is not bisexual at all.

LDD has frequently written about how he has no sexual attraction to anyone at all and never had, and he has no desire for sex, sexual attraction, or sex drive at all.

[Long Duck Dong]

strange cos I recall openly stating that I am attracted to males, females, trans etc..... and that I perfer to be a bottom than a top, and how my partner and I had sex a couple of years ago when she was here....etc

I even recall posting about how I find Michael Clarke Duncan to be the type of male I would enjoy sex with, as I find the quiet strength and power in him, very appealing, and I would be the bottom.....

my asexuality is the lack of a sex drive and no interest in casual sex..... and the sex drive can be medically treated as I posted in the asexuality thread you, tenni and bidave trashed.....

so mr bisexual dan savage wannabe with your asexual bigotry and ignorance... how about you follow your own advice to dan savage, and shut up until you know what you are actually talking about in regards to bisexual / asexual people and how diverse they are.....

and the same advice goes to tenni who told me in the asexuality thread that I was not asexual, but ran around the site posting how as a asexual I didn't know anything about being bisexual

[drugstore cowboy]

Long Duck of course you're asexual I'm not sure why Tenni thinks that you're not?

You yourself have said many times on this site just how and why you are asexual and how you are not bisexual at all.


.....I'm asexual I've never had any sexual attraction to anyone...no desire for sex either...if you want to know what its like think back what it was like before you were sexually attracted to anyone and thats how I am...

[tenni]

This thread is not about a particular asexual despite his attempts to make it all about him..lol.

He has constantly posted about sex and condemned sexual bisexual men. He is talking out his asshole about something that he doesn't have...a sex drive and how it impacts bisexual men who have a sex drive. He has condemned bisexual men who are sexual bisexuals...like the vast majority of bisexuals. That is pretty much along the accusations of Savage talking about bisexuals imo.

I too have someone in my life that is (from my observations over twenty years) an asexual. My friend has had sex with only three men in his entire life and identifies as gay. My friend never, never talks about sex in the twenty odd years that I've known him. Pasa does you mother constantly talk about sex like this biromantic asexual character on this site does?

[darkeyes]

I'm all for the bisexual community actually forming a community that is independent of the larger GLBT community. I am not in favor of breaking away. Much like a local bar here in Houston has said that it will continue to be pan-sexual 6 nights a week, it will only allow men in on Friday nights. They aren't seperating themselves from the rest of the community, but rather providing one night a week that is for guys only (presumably gays). We should be doing similar things (supporting the pansexual community, while also caring for our own needs in a strong, and proud fashion).

Pasa

Pasa, you and I have never agreed very much. I wont say I agree 100% with you on this either, but dont take issue with too much of what you've said in your post. We could both elaborate on reasons why people act as they do but for now am content with the fact that there are reasons.

Dan Savage is a dick, but even dicks arent wrong 100% of the time.

Bisexuals should organise themselves, but it is daft to organise outside of and be apart from groups whose interests are indentical. So within the lgbt movement is best and in all our interests. Outwith and acting against other groups within the lgbt umbrella harms us all. In alliance we are incredibly strong and history proves that. End that alliance and we are courting some serious trouble.

[tenni]

"it is daft to organise outside of and be apart from groups whose interests are indentical."

Darkeyes
That is an interesting assumption on your part. I don't think that bisexuals as a group have identified what there interests are and if they are identical to G&L. Bisexuals are rather disorganized and being under the umbrella has not helped. The accusation out of the San Francisco report is that being under the umbrella the way that it functions is not in the best interest of bisexuals.

[darkeyes]

"it is daft to organise outside of and be apart from groups whose interests are indentical."

Darkeyes
That is an interesting assumption on your part. I don't think that bisexuals as a group have identified what there interests are and if they are identical to G&L. Bisexuals are rather disorganized and being under the umbrella has not helped. The accusation out of the San Francisco report is that being under the umbrella the way that it functions is not in the best interest of bisexuals.

But they are identical Tenni. It is no assumption.

We desire respect and compassion, tolerance and understanding. No discrimination on the basis of our sexuality. To be allowed to live with and love the partner or partners of our choice. Sleep with and fuck for fun consensually any partner or partners of our choice. To be given the same rights to marry the partner of our choice and for that partner to be given the same rights as the partners of any heterosexual. To be granted all the same rights in law as those accorded to heterosexual people. To be allowed to live in peace and without harrassment because of who and what we are. To be allowed to be ourselves and express ourselves in our own way without criticism or condemnation by society provided we do no harm. To be allowed to live our lives, Tenni.

Our interests are indentical. It is no assumption.

And I will tell you something else. Our interests are identical with those of heterosexual people also even if large numbers of them would never agree. Which is why I have no problem with welcoming into the lgbt fold any heterosexual person who sees that to be a fundamental truth. Which is why in so many instances you and people like you are fundamentally in error.

[tenni]

Those are great interests but are you certain that there are not others that bisexuals have?


A differing interest and need
1/ How about to have both gays & heteros not to assume that a same sex couple is a gay couple?
2/ A cross sex couple is not necessarily a straight couple
3/ Its a same sex marriage and not necessarily a gay marriage
....................
You know that I believe that bisexuals need to discuss amongst themselves without gays or heteros present in order to determine our own interests and needs. "We don't need no stink'n interference"..(written like a rebellious teen...lol) Let us separate sufficiently to clarify our own needs and interests.

Then we come back to you and tell you what our own interests are?

[darkeyes]

Those are great interests but are you certain that there are not others that bisexuals have?


A differing interest and need
1/ How about to have both gays & heteros not to assume that a same sex couple is a gay couple?
2/ A cross sex couple is not necessarily a straight couple
3/ Its a same sex marriage and not necessarily a gay marriage
....................
You know that I believe that bisexuals need to discuss amongst themselves without gays or heteros present in order to determine our own interests and needs. "We don't need no stink'n interference"..(written like a rebellious teen...lol) Let us separate sufficiently to clarify our own needs and interests.

Then we come back to you and tell you what our own interests are?
The issues you raise are important, Tenni, but not fundamental issues of principle for which the movement fights. Don't presume to tell me that there is no such thing as gay marriage and that it is same sex marriage. I know it at least as well as u, dyke that I may be, since Kate is not gay but bisexual. Since I was married to a man once, I also know that a marriage between two people of different genders is not necessarily a straight marriage again every bit as much as you do. These points are more or less a follow on from your first and we should never assume the sexuality of anyone. They are not quite trivial, but nor are they issues any of us need to go to the wall over while there are still great things which yet need done.

In a sense what you say makes the words "straight" and "gay" to describe people's sexuality almost outdated especially when referring to couples. A same sex couple is a homosexual couple in fact if not necessarily in reality irrespective of their sexuality. Equally a cross sex couple is a heterosexual couple in fact if not necessarily in reality. The word "couple" covers it, no matter the gender and sexuality of those involved.

However these are not issues which are particularly those of bisexual people alone are they? These are human issues. They are not the great fundamental issues of principle which the lgbt has been fighting for all this time. They are covered in fact by the word "understanding", and the word "acceptance". It is for us to win the truly great issues and the lesser but still important ones such as u raise will be taken care of in time once the basic issues are won.

[Diva667]

"it is daft to organise outside of and be apart from groups whose interests are indentical."

Darkeyes
That is an interesting assumption on your part. I don't think that bisexuals as a group have identified what there interests are and if they are identical to G&L. Bisexuals are rather disorganized and being under the umbrella has not helped. The accusation out of the San Francisco report is that being under the umbrella the way that it functions is not in the best interest of bisexuals.

I don't believe that the umbrella has caused the dis-organization. I think it comes down to a few things. Mostly due to the way we as bisexuals have felt about labels and organizations. We are mostly an anarchic group, independent and loners. "We" don't want to be a group in other words.

[Annika L]

Those are great interests but are you certain that there are not others that bisexuals have?


Tenni, despite her saying that "our interests are identical", I think it's clear that Fran means "we have a lot of identical interests."

I mean, sheesh, L and G groups have non-identical interests as well, but yet both groups (generally) have no trouble coming together to work for the common interests that Fran describes.

In that bisexuals share those common interests, and our lives would be vastly improved if those interests were realized, then yes, we have a strong interest in remaining under that messy umbrella. If we divorce ourselves from the umbrella, then (a) it will take the LG groups longer to win their causes, which would strengthen our own causes, and (b) to the extent that their interests are realized, they would apply *only* to LG groups, since we bowed out...and good luck to us achieving our unique interests on our own, and without the LG common interests being achieved.

As far as allowing straights or other non-LGBT people in on the cause, that's just common sense. It's the same as with feminist movements: if you identify a group of problems as "women's problems", and refuse the help of men in dealing with them, then you are alienating a group of people with power from participating in a solution, and that is counter-productive. Similarly, if straight people, who have a majority of the power in our society, want to participate in our interests, we'd be stupid not to welcome their support.

[hgf33]

My only issue with us bisexuals is this: once they're in a relationship, too many of us take on whatever label fits that relationship. I know of way too many bisexuals who have gotten into straight relationships and then chose to refer to themselves as straight, just like I have also see many bisexuals end up in same sex relationships and all of a sudden they're just gay. What's worse is, the people who deny their bisexuality altogether and get offended when you suggest it! For example, the girls who will flirt with you, kiss you, fool around with you, and then you say something funny, like "isn't being bi great?" And they're like "What?! I'm not bi!" Erg. People prefer to identify as "open-minded" rather than bi, and that's fine, to a point. I am willing to sleep with both, I'm bisexual, and I don't mind the freaking label! Some labels are necessary!!!! It's not a cliquey label like "jock, prep, nerd", etc, it's an ACTUAL title. It just IS. I just AM. We need to wear it like a badge of honor!!!

What I'm basically saying is, yes, we need to fight for our rights just like gays and lesbians, and educate those who are ignorant about bisexuality, but we also REALLY need to address that a big part of them problem tends to be within the bisexuality community itself. Denying what you are is not going to help us at all!! I'm in a hetero relationship with a straight man, and although I am not out to everyone, I refuse to call myself straight. I'll find any way around it if it's brought up. I leave the "interested in" section of my social sites completely blank. I may not be entirely out, but I also refuse to misrepresent myself!

Another thing I won't do, is separate from the community. Everyone wants to "get out from under the rainbow" so that bisexuals are accepted more. Do you really think we're gonna be more accepted by segregating ourselves from the LGBT community? Who's gonna learn anything from that?! That's like saying "Let's have a racial diversity parade... but since no one understands the Hispanics, they should have their own parade." Segregation does NOTHING for the sake of understanding and compassion. More people equals more strength. Yeah, SOME people in the community discriminate against bisexuals. Well, guess what, those people are assholes. There are rude, ignorant people in every community, everywhere!! Sexuality doesn't determine whether or not you're going to be a jerk! We need to remember that, like these people, there are also really good people who will accept us. Instead of being all "woe is me, some douchebag doesn't like bisexuals", why not be a little more like "Hey, I know this other person accepts me... let's see if, together, we can try to make others understand it better!!

Use negativity for empowerment. Dwelling about how it's not fair isn't productive. Don't like Dan Savage, don't follow his work. Simple as that. Or put it in this perspective... at least he isn't running for office! Michele Bachmann is a whole other story that I am NOT going to get into here.

Be bisexual, stay bisexual, and be effing proud of it, dammit!!! Keep fighting the fight for LGBT and ALL human rights!!

[Pasadenacpl2]

Tenni is correct about one thing. We do need to get our shit together.

To whit: I don't see any of the three needs he lists as needs for me. I am not fighting for people to not make assumptions. Honestly, I don't care. I am fighting for labels to not matter.

I am fighting for people to let me love who I wish...period. What they think, that I'm gay, or bi, or a gay man in a bi closet or whatever doesn't interest me. As long as it a: doesn't affect my job, b: doesn't affect my kids, and c: doesn't affect my life, then I'm happy.

Some of us are so hung up on labels (and usually it's from the "labels don't matter" crowd) that you lose sight of the actually important things. Things like tolerance, acceptance, and the legal right to love and live as we choose.

I'm not interested in fighting for your cause, if your cause is anything other than that.

Pasa

[Annika L]

My only issue with us bisexuals is this: once they're in a relationship, too many of us take on whatever label fits that relationship. I know of way too many bisexuals who have gotten into straight relationships and then chose to refer to themselves as straight, just like I have also see many bisexuals end up in same sex relationships and all of a sudden they're just gay. What's worse is, the people who deny their bisexuality altogether and get offended when you suggest it! For example, the girls who will flirt with you, kiss you, fool around with you, and then you say something funny, like "isn't being bi great?" And they're like "What?! I'm not bi!" Erg. People prefer to identify as "open-minded" rather than bi, and that's fine, to a point. I am willing to sleep with both, I'm bisexual, and I don't mind the freaking label! Some labels are necessary!!!! It's not a cliquey label like "jock, prep, nerd", etc, it's an ACTUAL title. It just IS. I just AM. We need to wear it like a badge of honor!!!

What I'm basically saying is, yes, we need to fight for our rights just like gays and lesbians, and educate those who are ignorant about bisexuality, but we also REALLY need to address that a big part of them problem tends to be within the bisexuality community itself. Denying what you are is not going to help us at all!! I'm in a hetero relationship with a straight man, and although I am not out to everyone, I refuse to call myself straight. I'll find any way around it if it's brought up. I leave the "interested in" section of my social sites completely blank. I may not be entirely out, but I also refuse to misrepresent myself!

Another thing I won't do, is separate from the community. Everyone wants to "get out from under the rainbow" so that bisexuals are accepted more. Do you really think we're gonna be more accepted by segregating ourselves from the LGBT community? Who's gonna learn anything from that?! That's like saying "Let's have a racial diversity parade... but since no one understands the Hispanics, they should have their own parade." Segregation does NOTHING for the sake of understanding and compassion. More people equals more strength. Yeah, SOME people in the community discriminate against bisexuals. Well, guess what, those people are assholes. There are rude, ignorant people in every community, everywhere!! Sexuality doesn't determine whether or not you're going to be a jerk! We need to remember that, like these people, there are also really good people who will accept us. Instead of being all "woe is me, some douchebag doesn't like bisexuals", why not be a little more like "Hey, I know this other person accepts me... let's see if, together, we can try to make others understand it better!!

Use negativity for empowerment. Dwelling about how it's not fair isn't productive. Don't like Dan Savage, don't follow his work. Simple as that. Or put it in this perspective... at least he isn't running for office! Michele Bachmann is a whole other story that I am NOT going to get into here.

Be bisexual, stay bisexual, and be effing proud of it, dammit!!! Keep fighting the fight for LGBT and ALL human rights!!

Wonderfully said, all of it.

I have been in a relationship with my female partner for 25 years, but I have *always* maintained my bisexuality, despite claims from straights, gays, and even friggin bisexuals that my exclusivity with my partner means that I am in fact a lesbian. If you understand what sexuality is, then you know that you cannot infer mine simply from whom I sleep with. When people imply that, I do bristle, and I do correct them...maybe not out of outright "pride" but at least out of a desire for accuracy in peoples' image of me.

My only problem with the "badge of honor" concept is that to me, sexuality is a private matter. I don't scream it from the mountaintops, and for the most part I don't enjoy people (straight, gay, bi, or other) who scream theirs. But to me, the fact that I don't broadcast my sexuality does raise the stakes on correcting misstatements and wrong assumptions by others.

[tenni]

I don't believe that the umbrella has caused the dis-organization. I think it comes down to a few things. Mostly due to the way we as bisexuals have felt about labels and organizations. We are mostly an anarchic group, independent and loners. "We" don't want to be a group in other words.

Diva
Have you read the report from the San Francisco Human Rights Commission. Bisexual Invisibility? If not, google it. I agree to some extent that the disorganization and attitude towards labels may come from ourselves.

Annika
That makes sense that we have a lot of common interests. I agree to a small extent that totally separating from the Umbrella would be disasterous at this point but a partial separation may be needed. So, Annika, what interests do you see bisexuals having that are not common with the interests of G&L? It is a discussion on those that I think is needed. Bi erasure? Bi Invisibility? Do you see those as our interests? Any others?

[Annika L]

Annika
That makes sense that we have a lot of common interests. I agree to a small extent that totally separating from the Umbrella would be disasterous at this point but a partial separation may be needed. So, Annika, what interests do you see bisexuals having that are not common with the interests of G&L? It is a discussion on those that I think is needed. Bi erasure? Bi Invisibility? Do you see those as our interests? Any others?

Yes, the ones you mentioned earlier to Fran are of interest to many bisexuals, as are the ones you mention here. To me, I think it all boils down to getting society to recognize that bisexuals exist, and constitute a valid sexuality (not just confused, in transition from straight to gay or vice versa, etc.), that it is possible to be sexually and/or emotionally attracted to both/all sexes...that we are distinct from "gay" and from "straight".

But in a society where many many people still think *gay* people are just confused or in some kind of transitional phase, it seems a rather big leap to work toward in a focused way at this time. First get L and G recognized as valid ways to be, *then* work at getting them to recognize that straight and L/G aren't the *only* valid ways to be (by that time, it strikes me this should be relatively easy).

I'm not saying we shouldn't be out and vocal...we should. But it shouldn't be the big thing the LGBT community pushes for...we should all be pursuing the goals we have in common first; then we can pursue secondary goals, etc.

[hgf33]

My only problem with the "badge of honor" concept is that to me, sexuality is a private matter. I don't scream it from the mountaintops, and for the most part I don't enjoy people (straight, gay, bi, or other) who scream theirs. But to me, the fact that I don't broadcast my sexuality does raise the stakes on correcting misstatements and wrong assumptions by others.[/QUOTE]

I guess I meant "badge of honor" in a more metaphoric or emotional way. Not actually a "tell everyone" sort of thing. All I mean is to just be proud of who we are and don't deny it or let ignorance supress us. Like I said, I, myself, am not totally out, but I wish I could be. But I'm not as private of a person... I WOULD actually wear it on my sleeve, to quote another cliche, lol. I just feel like it's a part of who I am, and if I was able to boast it, maybe I could meet more like-minded people. But that's just me. :-)

[darkeyes]

My only issue with us bisexuals is this: once they're in a relationship, too many of us take on whatever label fits that relationship. I know of way too many bisexuals who have gotten into straight relationships and then chose to refer to themselves as straight, just like I have also see many bisexuals end up in same sex relationships and all of a sudden they're just gay. What's worse is, the people who deny their bisexuality altogether and get offended when you suggest it! For example, the girls who will flirt with you, kiss you, fool around with you, and then you say something funny, like "isn't being bi great?" And they're like "What?! I'm not bi!" Erg. People prefer to identify as "open-minded" rather than bi, and that's fine, to a point. I am willing to sleep with both, I'm bisexual, and I don't mind the freaking label! Some labels are necessary!!!! It's not a cliquey label like "jock, prep, nerd", etc, it's an ACTUAL title. It just IS. I just AM. We need to wear it like a badge of honor!!!

What I'm basically saying is, yes, we need to fight for our rights just like gays and lesbians, and educate those who are ignorant about bisexuality, but we also REALLY need to address that a big part of them problem tends to be within the bisexuality community itself. Denying what you are is not going to help us at all!! I'm in a hetero relationship with a straight man, and although I am not out to everyone, I refuse to call myself straight. I'll find any way around it if it's brought up. I leave the "interested in" section of my social sites completely blank. I may not be entirely out, but I also refuse to misrepresent myself!

Another thing I won't do, is separate from the community. Everyone wants to "get out from under the rainbow" so that bisexuals are accepted more. Do you really think we're gonna be more accepted by segregating ourselves from the LGBT community? Who's gonna learn anything from that?! That's like saying "Let's have a racial diversity parade... but since no one understands the Hispanics, they should have their own parade." Segregation does NOTHING for the sake of understanding and compassion. More people equals more strength. Yeah, SOME people in the community discriminate against bisexuals. Well, guess what, those people are assholes. There are rude, ignorant people in every community, everywhere!! Sexuality doesn't determine whether or not you're going to be a jerk! We need to remember that, like these people, there are also really good people who will accept us. Instead of being all "woe is me, some douchebag doesn't like bisexuals", why not be a little more like "Hey, I know this other person accepts me... let's see if, together, we can try to make others understand it better!!

Use negativity for empowerment. Dwelling about how it's not fair isn't productive. Don't like Dan Savage, don't follow his work. Simple as that. Or put it in this perspective... at least he isn't running for office! Michele Bachmann is a whole other story that I am NOT going to get into here.

Be bisexual, stay bisexual, and be effing proud of it, dammit!!! Keep fighting the fight for LGBT and ALL human rights!!

Annika is right it is wonderfully put. Together anything and everything is possible for all of us who are not straight and in our victory would come a true enlightenment and freeing of the heterosexual universe and therefore for all humankind. Apart we make the job so much more difficult, maybe even impossible. In time we may find that we would have to begin again.

Over the last 6 years I have occasionally warned in forums of the inevitable backlash of darkness against the light. It is too early to say whether that backlash is on its way, but although progress is still being made for us all to reach our goals, there are alarming signs that things are about to slow down, maybe even set things in reverse... we are in more illiberal times and the nightmare scenario is not completely out of the question. Division between the non straight sexualities there fore not only makes our goals more difficult to reach, it also makes it more difficult to stop the roller coaster of reaction.

Unity IS strength... it is a concept which has proven its value time and again and does not guarantee victory but it does make it more possible and makes reversing the progress of our generations and those who came before have achieved more difficult.

Of course bisexuals should organise in their interests, but that organisation should be as a group within the allied banner of the entire lgbt movement and bring their own perspective to our cause. That the transgendered should do also goes without saying, and that the lesbian and gay groups under the umbrella already does so is a reality. Yet even within the lesbian and gay community there are subgroups who have their own perspectives to bring to bear, and there is no complete unity of view on many issues. But in the end, groups and subgroups have to work together in common cause to achieve the aims we have set ourselves.

Since the 1960s unity has proven itself and if it is the gay and lesbian communties who have led the way that is just circumstance which made that possible because the worlds of bisexuality and the transgendered were much less well known and understood from the outset, and it is only in much more recent times have they begun to flex their muscles and that is a good thing.... the arguments within all the communities of the lgbt movement and the movement as a whole are important because we can air the feelings and aspirations of all not just those of one group or other. That we come to concensus to achieve our goals and instill all or as much of those aspirations of all that we can into our societies is a necessity we must never forget.

If I may make a personal comment about your second to last sentence, hgf, it is this.. yes, be bisexual and stay bisexual if that is how your life pans out, just as I am a lesbian and will remain one if that is to be my lot in life. Never be ashamed of what you are, but I am not proud of my lesbianism, and was never proud of my once bisexuality... the former is and the latter was simply a part of who and what I am. I had no control over them being within me and how they developed... one was and the other is. No more... No less. Nothing to be proud of, but more importantly, certainly nothing for which we should feel shame.

The paragraph preceding is but my personal feelings about my sexuality and I know others such as yourself will feel differently and thats fine... it is not meant as a criticism of you or your opinion so please do not take it as such. My pride and shame is not in my sexuality or any other aspect of my existence, but in how I have deployed and employed those parts of my being. :)

.. and now me lufflies Fran butts outa the discussion and leave yas 2 it.. its been fun an almost like ole times.. kissie n huggles 2 all...:grouphug:

[djones]

Bisexuals should organise themselves, but it is daft to organise outside of and be apart from groups whose interests are indentical. So within the lgbt movement is best and in all our interests.

Actually, it is daft to remain within a group that tries to censor, diminish, and demean us - regardless of the fact that we have shared interests.


Outwith and acting against other groups within the lgbt umbrella harms us all.

Being outside of the "rainbow" doesn't mean we are against it or in combat with the "LGBT" - A point we have tried to make many times. Rather, the need exists to function on our own and grow our community to gain respect and acceptance.



In alliance we are incredibly strong and history proves that. End that alliance and we are courting some serious trouble.

Were the inner powers of the LGBT - essentially white gay males - truly our allies, then I would agree with you. However, this is not the case. If we remain under their thumb, we aren't strong by allegiance, we are weaker by servitude.

[DuckiesDarling]

Amusing, I can see from the quotes and responses that someone (TENNI) is again trying to say that heterosexuals and gays don't need to be saying anything about anything that possibly touches on bisexuals.


Newsflash, Tenni. Look around you, all those rights you say people should fight for and they should stop be invisible and come out as bisexual.....well you can't do what you don't have the right to do and you won't gain the rights without the gays and the heteros you are so fond of slamming. You shove away everyone that can be of assistance forgetting they have the one thing you so desperately need...a vote. You can't do it alone, it's not like your sex life, you need other people to make a stand with you and if you keep shoving people down when the day comes and the votes are counted, you will find yourself fall short of the mark to pass any legislation giving bis the rights you seek.

[DuckiesDarling]

DD
It is your behaviour on this site that has created my attitude. Over 1500 posts in less than one year on a site for bisexuals by a hetero woman who at times used the word "we" as if she represented bisexuals. It is your attacks on bisexual men who did not behave as you the hetero wanted. You attempted to dominate this site imo. That is not support.

I say we, because I have been a part of the LGBT community since I was 19 years old and realized my dear friend was dying of AIDS. I got involved, I cared. I have fought for the rights and I have used my voice on here and in political areas to support LGBT rights by pointing out that everyone should have the right to marry who they love. So I don't really care if you don't like my attitude, but my attitude does get votes for LGBT in real life, how about yours?

[Pasadenacpl2]

DD
It is your behaviour on this site that has created my attitude. Over 1500 posts in less than one year on a site for bisexuals by a hetero woman who at times used the word "we" as if she represented bisexuals. It is your attacks on bisexual men who did not behave as you the hetero wanted. You attempted to dominate this site imo. That is not support.

Really? It was HER attitude that caused you to become militantly hateful to our allies? I call bullshit. You have decided to wage a war against LDD and DD both. You are the one telling the members of this site who should be able to post and who should just be silenced. You and your alt persona on this board (as if its not obvious).

Shut the hell up, already. Your vendetta is old, tired and played out. You aren't helping.

Pasa

[hgf33]

Actually, it is daft to remain within a group that tries to censor, diminish, and demean us - regardless of the fact that we have shared interests.

They, as a group, do no such thing. The people who censor, diminish, and demean us are individuals. They may be within a group, sure, but like I've said before, ignorant assholes are everywhere. You should never generalize, as it borders on reverse discrimination and is a form of ignorance in itself. I've found the gay community to be some of the most accepting, respectful, and understanding people I've ever been around. Don't let a few jerks make you think it's the whole community that discriminates against us, because it most certainly is not. I have black neighbors... doesn't mean I'm any less white. Blame individuals, not communities.

[DuckiesDarling]

But to get this back ontopic since our troll deleted his inflammatory post. Dan Savage is unfortunately someone who gets a lot of airtime because of this loud voicing of his opinions. I do believe he is biphobic but more from ignorance than from a real reason to try and claim bisexuals don't exist. I have posted one thing he did on here, and that was because it didn't matter WHO Said it, as long as it saved one child. That was the It Gets Better Project. I still believe that as long as it saved one child it was worth it for being passed around from site to site.

There is an old saying that you can do good in the name of evil and have it still be good and you can do evil in the name of good and never have it anything but evil. Dan Savage is an opinionated ass, but he did have the chance to save one child's life with his project and for that alone I will think good thoughts about him, but the other crap.... well there are a lot of farmlands needing some manure.

[Diva667]

Diva
Have you read the report from the San Francisco Human Rights Commission. Bisexual Invisibility? If not, google it. I agree to some extent that the disorganization and attitude towards labels may come from ourselves.

Annika
That makes sense that we have a lot of common interests. I agree to a small extent that totally separating from the Umbrella would be disasterous at this point but a partial separation may be needed. So, Annika, what interests do you see bisexuals having that are not common with the interests of G&L? It is a discussion on those that I think is needed. Bi erasure? Bi Invisibility? Do you see those as our interests? Any others?

You mean the one I posted here? http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10910
Yes, I've read it, thanks for bringing it up...

I still don't see how you come to the conclusion that being "under the umbrella" is causing the disorganization. We have only ourselves to blame for that and for allowing the invisibility of bisexuals everywhere. However, it's been said on this board a number of times "My sexuality is no one's business" and "I don't like labels" and "Why should I be out?" If you want there to be a bisexual community there first needs to be the courage(dare I say pride?) in the label of "bisexual." Until people are willing to stand up and correct people we will always remain invisible in that morass of pink triangles or blue squares when we are in fact purple circles.

Until then we will always remain a disorganized and under-represented chaotic mess.

[hgf33]

I still don't see how you come to the conclusion that being "under the umbrella" is causing the disorganization. We have only ourselves to blame for that and for allowing the invisibility of bisexuals everywhere. However, it's been said on this board a number of times "My sexuality is no one's business" and "I don't like labels" and "Why should I be out?" If you want there to be a bisexual community there first needs to be the courage(dare I say pride?) in the label of "bisexual." Until people are willing to stand up and correct people we will always remain invisible in that morass of pink triangles or blue squares when we are in fact purple circles.

Until then we will always remain a disorganized and under-represented chaotic mess.[/QUOTE]

Exactly what I've been saying, and I like the way you put it! :)

[djones]

They, as a group, do no such thing. The people who censor, diminish, and demean us are individuals. They may be within a group, sure, but like I've said before, ignorant assholes are everywhere.

The group, unfortunately, is headed by individuals who do such things ! And yes, they are ignorant assholes.


You should never generalize, as it borders on reverse discrimination and is a form of ignorance in itself

Again, not generalizing as I am NOT talking about every gay or lesbian individual.

Please - everybody stop confusing my point that we need to break from the LGBT "Rainbow / Community" as meaning we need to oppose every gay or lesbian out there. It is the power structure within the orginization that is the problem.

And yes - they do oppose us - as evidenced by the organizers of the pride parade here in NYC who put Dan Savage, a very loud opponent of Bisexuals, at the head of the fucking parade (this being just one example). How can a movement or community truly be about L, G, B, and T if at an organizational level it demotes its own member groups - in this case the B.

I am not at war with members of the gay community. I am incensed at the leadership of what is supposed to be an advocacy group speaking on our behalf that chooses instead to speak against us.

How can it possibly make sense to keep our voices muffled under the umbrella of a group that claims the right to speak for us yet speaks against us ?

[Pasadenacpl2]

Sounds like an awful lot of paranoia to me. As someone who has done a ton of event organization, I can tell you that there isn't much nefarious going on here. If I were given the NYC Pride Parade to organize, I'd put Dan Savage there too. Why? Because I dont have to agree with all of his message. I just have to know that his presence will bring attention to my event. This is the most talked about NYC Pride Parade in a decade. People are discussing it, often passionately. Yes, he's controversial. That's the point.

I don't see the organized organization you apparently do, DJones. I don't see any grand conspiracy against bisexuals. I see hurt feelings. I see mistrust. But nothing so nefarious as what you and others describe.

There is no grand conspiracy of white gay men.

Pasa

[hgf33]

Sounds like an awful lot of paranoia to me. As someone who has done a ton of event organization, I can tell you that there isn't much nefarious going on here. If I were given the NYC Pride Parade to organize, I'd put Dan Savage there too. Why? Because I dont have to agree with all of his message. I just have to know that his presence will bring attention to my event. This is the most talked about NYC Pride Parade in a decade. People are discussing it, often passionately. Yes, he's controversial. That's the point.

I don't see the organized organization you apparently do, DJones. I don't see any grand conspiracy against bisexuals. I see hurt feelings. I see mistrust. But nothing so nefarious as what you and others describe.

There is no grand conspiracy of white gay men.

Pasa

Well said, Pasa, and I agree. No one refers to it as the LG community. There is a B for a reason, and we are it. Headed by ignorant assholes? Um, is there like some sort of LGBT president I don't know about? No one "heads" these communities. We just exist because we are who we are. Hell, straight people get involved in LGBT rights, too. Gays have advocates who speak out, but every group does. Those advocates aren't in charge of anything or anyone. BE an advocate. I blow up my social sites all the time advocating LGBT rights, but it's so we can all be equal. I get involved as much as I can, for HUMAN RIGHTS, not just "gay" rights. The more people out there trying to promote acceptance, the stronger we are. We are a part of the rainbow. We are the B in LGBT. News stations, when reporting on gay rights, say "Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgendered" loud and clear, and I feel good when I hear it. We belong, but we have to take responsibility on our own to not give bisexuals a bad name! ("Fuck the rainbow" is a pretty effective way to get gays to dislike us!) Get involved more and you'll realize there isn't as much hate within the community as you think. Breaking apart won't solve anything, it'll only breed more hate. We need to be loud and proud from WITHIN. Promote bi acceptance WITH others, not AT them. Some gays don't like us, ok. Well, I don't like cooked broccoli, but some people do.

You conspiracy theorists can do what you want. I'm not separating from the rainbow. I am half gay, after all. :color: