FUCK THE RAINBOW ! ! !

[djones]

Hello Friends,

Perhaps you have seen in other threads that I am very unhappy with the LGBT "community" and the whole "Rainbow" thing.

Let me clarify -

I am not in opposition to Gay, Lesbian or Transgendered individuals.

Repeat :

I am not in opposition to Gay, Lesbian or Transgendered individuals.

What I am advocating is for the Bisexual community to get out of the trappings of the so called LGBT community and its "rainbow" and start speaking for ourselves. The organized LGBT community as an advocacy group does not represent the Bisexual community - even though we have many shared interests. Instead, on an organizational level, the LGBT community is headed by people who are not supportive of Bisexuals and are openly critical of, and insulting to, us.

There is clear need to step out from under the rainbow and speak for ourselves - advocate for our own acceptance, respect, and issues.

This is not a call to oppose the LGBT Community. This is not a call to oppose or belittle Gay, Lesbian, and Transgendered individuals.

This is simply the call to speak on our own behalf as no one is going to do it for us.

Repeat :

This is not a call to oppose the LGBT Community. This is not a call to oppose or belittle Gay, Lesbian, and Transgendered individuals.


I hope that clarifies my stance. I hope others that feel the same will stand up with the rest of us.

Thanks for listening.

[chook]

The only thing it clarify's for me is that you seem to like repeating yourself.....sort of like a Foghorn Leghorn.....I Say.....Foghorn Lrghorn :rainbow:

Cheers Chook :bigrin:

[Annika L]

I hear you, d, and I agree that we could all stand to start speaking up more on and for our own. It certainly doesn't make sense to stand around waiting for the rainbow to solve our problems...but I don't think anyone is advocating that.

IF we speak up, we stand to gain ground for ourselves, and to make greater headway when the rainbow gains its own ground.

I won't refuse support from any group, be it larger or smaller than ourselves, and whether it is a subset, superset, or completely disjoint from us. But I think that all that's needed to "step out from under the rainbow", as you say, is for us to start making ourselves more visible and more vocal. I mean, if all the posts I've read here about how everyone is really bi have an ounce of validity, then there are more of us than there are of anyone else...so if half of us would start speaking up, we should be able to accomplish something. (Of course, I'm one of those who *doesn't* believe that everyone is bi, so I'll leave the organizing of our great masses to someone who does.)

Speaking for ourselves, though, d, doesn't mean we divorce ourselves from the LGBT movement, or refuse association with them...that is silly. But there is no harm in moving a bit on our own, as we feel we can.

For starters, we could use some good high-profile bisexuals to start speaking out when bisexuals are criticized or maligned. Any volunteers?









(*crick crick*)

[slipnslide]

But haven't you noticed by now that the vast majority of people on this site don't care enough to politicize their lives?

If I live to be 1000, I'll never be part of any bi advocacy group. Who has that much time to waste nowadays?

The people who like vanilla ice cream are after me to advocate on their behalf because they feel that the chocolate ice cream people are not representing them and are belittling their flavour. I don't have interest in that either.

This is one of that "can't see the forest for the trees" type of situations. You're so caught up and focused on your sexuality that you're missing the whole world out there that doesn't give a shit.

[void()]

Until recently there was a web site called The Dead Letter Department. This site was based on the premise of being a clearinghouse of letters the postal service could not deliver. or more aptly letters people wrote to loved ones upon learning of impending death. Rather due to suffering depression or an uncanny morbidity, I saved an amalgamation of some of these. Often I revisit this Dead Letter for help in keeping perspective. Maybe the original poster and others can find something in it as well. If not, that's alright as well.

The Dead Letter

Happiness is just an illusion, filled with sadness and confusion.



Find your inner strengths and go with them (no matter how others will see them.)
Always find the positive and beauty in any thing or situation.

No matter what you have done in your life so far - it is NOT too late to begin again.
And please - do ONE THING everyday that makes YOU happy.

Learn how to live the best way you can for you and for the people you love.

Don't let money or other people rule your life.

Develop close and personal relationships, tell people you love them.

Find your calling.

Find your happiness and joy and sorrow and emotion.

Find your own life, and live it.

Life goes quickly so be brave.

It's never too early to start realizing your dreams and ambitions.

Don't forget to have loads of fun too.

Don't be scared of trying and failing. Its far sadder to be too afraid.

Be kind to your lovers. Tell the truth.

Appreciate your friends and remember when they let you down to give them a few chances.

Families aren't perfect. Try to get on with your parents. They won't always be around.

Try not to regret.

Talk about it, whatever it is - share your secrets with a total stranger or a close friend. But get them out in the open, somehow, someway. They will kill you if you don't, or at least rot you from the inside out. And if you think you are the first person to have a secret like yours - you haven't counted the population lately. And no one cares - because we all have our secrets. Anyone who cares too much about mine obviously is afraid of dealing with theirs, and do you want to be that person?



There are no RIGHT answers; only choices. . .

Enjoy each to its fullest!

Don't be a coward. If you see an opportunity, go for it. If you want to have an experience, have it. Don't wait, don't worry and certainly don't waste time bitching and moaning about how you waited and worried. The universe doesn't give out second chances. There's no sense bitching about it, because that's just the way it is.

And you people better shut up and stop fighting over the petty shit. You keep that up, and all the opportunities in the world will slip right through your fingers.

Live your life, trust your feelings, be who you are and fuck other people's opinions.

And fuck other people, too. Celibacy is a curse.

Life will indeed kick your ass if you let it. So don't. It really is as simple as that.

- Life is what we make of it. Recognize that.

But also recognize that everything you say and do affects someone in some way, and while you have your rights, recognize that everyone else has the right to have you NOT interfere with their life. Also recognize that people will be too polite to tell you that you're screwing with their life in some way... so you need to watch yourself.

- Don't be too polite to tell someone else that they're screwing with your life.

- Watch yourself.

- Make sure you're always free. This is one of your rights. No one, and I mean no one, can take your power away unless you let them or unless you break the rules that society has laid down. Those rules are there for good reason, and not to protect you from yourself or to make you do what "the man" wants you to do. This includes the advice of your parents. They may seem stupid now, but when you're a stain underneath that 18-wheeler, "look both ways" would've been a good idea. And maybe some clean underwear, too.

- Don't screw your body up too bad when you're young. You'll need it later. You can have just as much fun without chemicals to relax you... you just need to relax yourself.

- Learn how to love. It's a skill that I never learned, either because I wasn't ready for the lesson or I didn't find a good enough teacher.

- Learn how not to hate. This is a lesson I did learn, and I'm forever grateful for it. Diversity and differences between people and places are good, and will not only make you grow as a person, which you can't necessarily see, but it will make you feel better about yourself.

- This goes out to the religious people in the audience: Do not rely on blind faith. It's a battering ram to get you through life. Instead, learn to fence - Go out and explore your personal faith on your own. Explore your beliefs. Explore your urges. Give in to some of these urges, because they're not wrong - they're what your body and mind wants and/or needs, and no one (and I mean no one) should tell you otherwise. What would you do tomorrow if you woke up and found that there is no god? What if you woke up tomorrow and found that we are not made in the reflection of God, but instead, God is some sort of space alien? Would you fear and hate, would you worship, or disregard? Decide for yourself. Explore yourself. Just remember, make sure all of the urges that you try do not change or interfere with someone else's rights.

Know yourself, set rules by yourself for your self. Don't tread on other people. Don't let them tread on you. Figure out what you want to know and what you want to believe. Live your life, because you don't know what's coming after it.

Part I - Some Thoughts on Thinking

a. Intuition is usually right.

Part II - Some Thoughts About Emotions

a. True love is just that- nothing but the truth.

b. True love isn't if either of you are lying.

c. Love at first sight can be difficult for the vision-impaired.

Part III - Some Thoughts About Feelings

a. If it feels good, make sure it feels *right* too.

b. If it doesn't feel right, run like crazy.

"No matter what they tell you, who you are and what you do does matter. So go out and make a difference."

The object of life is to love and be loved.

We aren't important. No one is really. No you, I wasn't, the president of the United States isn't, not one person on this little speck of a planet matters. Now that we're clear I'll confuse you. While you don't matter at all buy just existing you fundamentally change the universe. Cause and effect spiraling into infinity. Just by existing you change things. So don't give up hope just yet.


On to religion. About God. I don't know, I haven't met it. There you go.

Being dead gives an interesting bit of perspective. I realize now how much of the things people care about aren't really important. Money doesn't mean anything to dead people. And it shouldn't mean anything to you either. Your car, house, dog, clothes, etc. aren't important. What is important is how you live. What matters are your friends and family. How you treat people, what you do, that is what means something.

Give the homeless guy a few dollars, who cares what he spends it on. Since when is it your place to judge? Make friends with someone from that group you were raised to dislike. Volunteer for an organization that actually helps people, like an AIDS program, or a homeless shelter. Just do something.

Don't accept life for what it is. Because it isn't what you think. Make yourself better. Make your world better for everyone.

You might not matter in the greater scheme of things, but you can make your immediate surroundings a better place. You can affect that much.

Step away from this message and live your life with as much joie de vivre as possible.


I emphasized a few portions which in ways feel as though speak to me.


Talk about it, whatever it is - share your secrets with a total stranger or a close friend. But get them out in the open, somehow, someway. They will kill you if you don't, or at least rot you from the inside out. And if you think you are the first person to have a secret like yours - you haven't counted the population lately. And no one cares - because we all have our secrets. Anyone who cares too much about mine obviously is afraid of dealing with theirs, and do you want to be that person?

I've talked about my secrets to those deemed appropriate. The poison won't eat me up. In fact I've spoken the secrets to complete strangers. And yes, I still have a few secrets.

I have two which probably will not be spoken. One of those deals with some knowledge of a certain type of submarine. The other deals with some not so stuff I may or may not have done to some not so nice people on different occasions. These are the types of secrets a person doesn't talk about anyway.

I can sleep fine with these secrets. Well, not entirely true but I do manage. Nightmares sometimes and a really strong dislike of large crowds of people, dislike of people at an odd angle behind me. It's what I call the 'kill' zone, just out of peripheral sight. Oh, and I pull back shower curtains in bathrooms.

But I can 'get by' for the most part. I have a medicine for when 'the edge' gets too damn sharp. It helps some. Some times I need to fight the medicine to get it to work, and then it knocks me down but good.

At any given, hopefully, this Dead Letter can help. Outies.

[elian]

There are certain things I'll advocate for slipnslide, mostly out of frustration, like being frustrated that a man and a woman can hold hands in public and kiss on Christmas Day or Valentine's Day and nobody says anything but around here let a gay couple try it once on any day of the year and see what happens. I do choose to hold a sign up near the courthouse on Valentine's Day every year asking for people to support gay marriage because I believe discriminating against someone for something as fundamental as who they love is hurtful and wrong.

I grew up with self esteem issues, as a result when I hear about LGBT teen suicide it breaks my heart, so despite being in the closet every once in a while I will submit an editorial to the paper or post on a public discussion forum about that issue.

People have always rallied around symbols and made those symbols their own. Not everybody always agrees with the interpretation. I believe the rainbow flag was for the rainbow coalition, which was not just LGBT but also included race; I think it is supposed to represent "all people" - as in celebrating diversity.

There is certainly nothing wrong with lending your personal voice and story to an issue, I think the only way that prejudice in any category will get gone is when EVERY straight person personally gets to know a lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgendered person, and EVERY white person personally knows someone of color. Then maybe you might just convince people, "You know what? That person's not so bad".

I think that generally speaking a gain for one minority benefits all. There are times when we must both must work together as a group and individually. This work should be done out of love when possible, not malice, spite, greed or anger. Compassionate love is the greatest gift that humans possess.

As Desmond Tutu says - "You don't have to necessarily be looking to do spectacular things - do what you can, where you can, to the extent that you can. Your act of courage may just be enough to inspire someone else."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILCdwJj37iw

[void()]

"the vast majority of people on this site don't care enough to politicize their lives."

We see how and what politics bring. We do care but, our caring isn't caring to be caught up in the quagmire of hell that politics beseeches. Our caring lies in allowing a gentle stream to continually erode a mountain away. Sure, we might have dynamite and C4. These both make one hell of a dent in mountainsides but then you're left with all the debris to clean up. Streams flow to rivers, rivers to seas.

We are all part of this infinite and eternal sea called the cosmos. While I may not hold to a divine being, I can still recognize something out there. It is seen every day when scientists can not define gravity, or electricity, fish in the darkest depths that have no eyes yet still survive. So, no we don't care about politics. It is just another creation of mankind's intellect like Time.

We're really smart too for all that intellect. Brought mother earth to the brink with raping her for resources, try to self genocide ourselves in wars. So many drugs now because we've made our world/s uninhabitable, so full of fear that we need crutches like politics and religion. Addicted to ideas so fully we don't see the onrushing headlights of Nature herself telling us to wake from a dream. "I've already had that one my child, mankind and what's more realized it infinitely better."

So while you may think we don't care, be aware we do. We just don't care in the way you would have us care. Sometimes the two Buddhas turn and walk the same direction, but different paths.

[tenni]

If the rainbow is a coalition, then which group came to the table to represent and speak for bisexuals? I know of none.

Do you know which group came to the rainbow table to represent us?

I want sexual bisexuals to represent bisexuals.

How are bisexuals needs different from gays?

The San Francisco Human Rights Commission reports that bisexuals have greater medical /stress related needs than any other group under the rainbow coalition. The San Francisco GLBT group provided the least numbers of specific progammes inclduding support and counselling to bisexuals and yet bisexuals are the largest numbers under the rainbow coalition. Bisexuals were expected to fit in to existing programmes designed for monosexual gays.

[Diva667]

If the rainbow is a coalition, then which group came to the table to represent and speak for bisexuals? I know of none.

Do you know which group came to the rainbow table to represent us?

I want sexual bisexuals to represent bisexuals.

How are bisexuals needs different from gays?

The San Francisco Human Rights Commission reports that bisexuals have greater medical /stress related needs than any other group under the rainbow coalition. The San Francisco GLBT group provided the least numbers of specific progammes inclduding support and counselling to bisexuals and yet bisexuals are the largest numbers under the rainbow coalition. Bisexuals were expected to fit in to existing programmes designed for monosexual gays.

If you can't / won't ask for help then you really have no one to blame but yourself...

In other words it's really passive aggressive to blame everyone else for our invisibility and lack of organization.

I'm all for being self empowered, but that first word is the kicker "self." It isn't Gay Inc.'s fault that we aren't speaking for ourselves. It isn't even the fault of straight people. When it comes right down to it, we need to be more articulate and more outspoken about who we are and what we want.

Some areas are barely able to support a pflag meeting. There aren't any glbt centers and no "gay" bars(which actually turn out to be pansexual "queer" bars) how do you propose bi people "step out from under the rainbow" in that situation?

Oh and here is information on "Celebrate Bisexuality Day"... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexual_Pride_Day

Anyone ever look here? http://www.bisexual.org/home.html

Oh and then there is this: http://bi.org/

[Flounder1967]

The only thing it clarify's for me is that you seem to like repeating yourself.....sort of like a Foghorn Leghorn.....I Say.....Foghorn Lrghorn :rainbow:

Cheers Chook :bigrin:

lol Chook

[dbltrbl69]

I feel most of us are here for hot bi sex and a place to express our questions and desires. The more time spent discussing quasi political crap is less time having great sex. Just saying!

[tenni]

Diva
Thanks for posting the sites. I am aware of one as that is the site that someone (Elian or Fred?) posted as a reference to bi erasure and bi invisibility.

"If you can't / won't ask for help then you really have no one to blame but yourself..."

True. In the case of the San Francisco situation, the systemic set up of the GLBT umbrella failed to provide rather than a bisexual failing to ask for help. In that situation it seems clear that it was not individual bisexuals with passive aggressive thinking. The issue with bi erasure and bi invisiblity seems to melt down to whether people like Diva blame the individuals for not making change as opposed to systems established and paid for to provide services failing to provide those services for the largest segment of the GLBT. Diva prefers to blame the victim it seems. Others wish to blame dj etc. for wanting some separation from the umbrella. Catch 22 thinking imo.



"Some areas are barely able to support a pflag meeting. There aren't any glbt centers and no "gay" bars(which actually turn out to be pansexual "queer" bars) how do you propose bi people "step out from under the rainbow" in that situation?"

In those geographic areas you are correct. No one is being provided services. That seems to be another Catch 22 scenario where you assume that bisexuals are comfortable and have a commonality of purpose with G&L ...let alone T. Bisexuals are hardly acknowledged by the G&L who have more visibility. Yet, in that situation, you really think that gathering will help? Maybe...maybe not. It seem logical that if change is to happen that it will happen in geographic areas where the numbers of interested bisexuals will make the change. Small isolated geographic areas are hardly a talking point unless you wish to stop any momentum.

I think that dbltrbl69 sums up what a lot of people are here for...sex or advice for emerging bi's. Then there was the cookie brigade who want to use the site for amusement. It is probably true that any political action will not come out of this site. It is still worth discussing for those who are interested.

Again, Diva
Thanks for posting those sites.

[slipnslide]

Isn't this just a numbers game? There aren't enough bisexual people to support an independent advocacy group. In my life I only know one other person who could identify as bisexual, but she identifies as a lesbian now.

Secondly, this "separate but equal" mentality does play right into the hands of the anti-sexuality-equality crowd. You've now started conquering and dividing the non-heteronormative community.

Finally, what is the end game here? I haven't seen a focused answer to that. If the problem is actually "Instead, on an organizational level, the LGBT community is headed by people who are not supportive of Bisexuals and are openly critical of, and insulting to, us." then you're better off to address that issue within the existing organizations than you are to get in a huff and walk away. You would never achieve the platform that is available now if you choose to differentiate bisexuals.

[Katja]

I feel most of us are here for hot bi sex and a place to express our questions and desires. The more time spent discussing quasi political crap is less time having great sex. Just saying!

Darling, if it was not for discussion, argument and activism, you would most likely be or have been in prison for your 'hot bi sex' since it was those things that enable you to get your bisexual legover quite legally in the first instance. It was discussion, argument and activism which has made this site possible for you to be able to express your questions and desires. It is discussion, argument and activism which has stopped you being branded a pervert, and it is discussion, argument and activism which may just prevent the world from turning on us and forcing us back into the closet.

Think about those things next time that little organ at the end of your cock goes into overdrive.

[Diva667]

Diva
Thanks for posting the sites. I am aware of one as that is the site that someone (Elian or Fred?) posted as a reference to bi erasure and bi invisibility.

"If you can't / won't ask for help then you really have no one to blame but yourself..."

True. In the case of the San Francisco situation, the systemic set up of the GLBT umbrella failed to provide rather than a bisexual failing to ask for help. In that situation it seems clear that it was not individual bisexuals with passive aggressive thinking. The issue with bi erasure and bi invisiblity seems to melt down to whether people like Diva blame the individuals for not making change as opposed to systems established and paid for to provide services failing to provide those services for the largest segment of the GLBT. Diva prefers to blame the victim it seems. Others wish to blame dj etc. for wanting some separation from the umbrella. Catch 22 thinking imo.



"Some areas are barely able to support a pflag meeting. There aren't any glbt centers and no "gay" bars(which actually turn out to be pansexual "queer" bars) how do you propose bi people "step out from under the rainbow" in that situation?"

In those geographic areas you are correct. No one is being provided services. That seems to be another Catch 22 scenario where you assume that bisexuals are comfortable and have a commonality of purpose with G&L ...let alone T. Bisexuals are hardly acknowledged by the G&L who have more visibility. Yet, in that situation, you really think that gathering will help? Maybe...maybe not. It seem logical that if change is to happen that it will happen in geographic areas where the numbers of interested bisexuals will make the change. Small isolated geographic areas are hardly a talking point unless you wish to stop any momentum.

I think that dbltrbl69 sums up what a lot of people are here for...sex or advice for emerging bi's. Then there was the cookie brigade who want to use the site for amusement. It is probably true that any political action will not come out of this site. It is still worth discussing for those who are interested.

Again, Diva
Thanks for posting those sites.

It isn't "their" responsibility, it's OURS. WE (you, me and everyone else who cares about these issues) must provide services that we know these people to need.

Perhaps the study that was conducted will allow GLBT orgs to go out and re-organize to help everyone. Perhaps we need to start caring for our own.

[dbltrbl69]

Lol well straights gay lesbian and trans gendered people are the last ones I'm thinking about when the brain on the end of my dick goes into overdrive. Generally we aren't accepted by any of them cuz our round peg doesn't go into their square holes. We are what we are... The best of both worlds and any annimosity from those group just means they are against the equality they are seeking. Like someones tagline says. Being bi is putting your hand down someones pants and always being happy with what you find!

[Katja]

Lol well straights gay lesbian and trans gendered people are the last ones I'm thinking about when the brain on the end of my dick goes into overdrive. Generally we aren't accepted by any of them cuz our round peg doesn't go into their square holes. We are what we are... The best of both worlds and any annimosity from those group just means they are against the equality they are seeking. Like someones tagline says. Being bi is putting your hand down someones pants and always being happy with what you find!

I am unsure you have quite got the meaning behind these discussions and neither do I think you fully understand the meaning of what being bisexual is. It is certainly a great deal more than you make it out to be and from your words I envision the type of person who is a major reason why so many gay, lesbian and straight people believe us to be nothing but sewer rats. The very reason we create such suspicion andanimosity among so many gay people in particular.

I have never accepted the argument that we have the best of both worlds. Bisexuality is much more complex than that and means so much more. Nor do I accept the saying about what we find down the pants of others. That is just glib and cheap and stopped being funny the day it was first used, especially since it is quite untrue.

What I read into what you say is one who is interested only in his personal satisfaction and cares nothing about anyone else. The kind of person who can be of any sexuality. The kind who is led blindly by the pea brain at the end of his knob. A very little person indeed.

[Pasadenacpl2]

This is part of the problem, Katja. We, the bisexual "community" can't really agree on what is important.

To you, it's about something far more and far bigger than what we find in the pants. And that's fantastic. To others, it's all about the sex. And that's ok too.

Look at the profiles on this site. In fact, I challenge you to look at a different city than your own (we become blind to the ones we've seen a thousand times). What do you find? A bunch of MWM who are looking for "discrete" (that's code for cheating on your wife) encounters. People who describe themselves as top, bottom, seeking oral only, etc... THIS is the vast majority of profiles on this site, and I didn't even go into the guys who only post dick shots on their profile photos.

Not very different from gay sites, really. Or gay hangouts. Not that you can go, Katja, but a "men's club" is really just a place for gay men to go hookup for anonymous sex (oh..and enjoy the pool). It's all about the sex, and pretty seedy, even if the facility is nice (of which some are far better than others).

This is part of the problem with the LGBT community in general. A vast majority are so caught up in the hedonism of it all, that they don't understand the very real complexities. And some are so caught up in those complexities that they miss the more hedonistic fun.

And it won't change until we have leadership that is more interested in leading us for our own sake than they are in what the other letters in LGBT do to us.

Pasa

[Annika L]

This is part of the problem, Katja. We, the bisexual "community" can't really agree on what is important.

To you, it's about something far more and far bigger than what we find in the pants. And that's fantastic. To others, it's all about the sex. And that's ok too.

Look at the profiles on this site. In fact, I challenge you to look at a different city than your own (we become blind to the ones we've seen a thousand times). What do you find? A bunch of MWM who are looking for "discrete" (that's code for cheating on your wife) encounters. People who describe themselves as top, bottom, seeking oral only, etc... THIS is the vast majority of profiles on this site, and I didn't even go into the guys who only post dick shots on their profile photos.

Not very different from gay sites, really. Or gay hangouts. Not that you can go, Katja, but a "men's club" is really just a place for gay men to go hookup for anonymous sex (oh..and enjoy the pool). It's all about the sex, and pretty seedy, even if the facility is nice (of which some are far better than others).

This is part of the problem with the LGBT community in general. A vast majority are so caught up in the hedonism of it all, that they don't understand the very real complexities. And some are so caught up in those complexities that they miss the more hedonistic fun.

And it won't change until we have leadership that is more interested in leading us for our own sake than they are in what the other letters in LGBT do to us.

Pasa

LOL, and exactly what kind of leader would it take to represent and direct such a disparate group of people with such varying (and predominantly hedonistic) interests?

It's not just that the "leadership" we have is inadequate...it's that it is not possible for anyone to truly represent all views and interests of bisexuals. We aren't really all that interested in being helped.

What would said leader do, exactly? Lead a political movement for social awareness, while advocating that "followers" stay at home and fuck who they want if they're so inclined? That might get everybody on board, but it is not how progress has ever been made in any cause.

No my dears, the problem is not with our leadership. It's with those of us who refuse to be led and don't want to help, but just want the benefit of the effort of others...or worse, live in denial of the fact that they need help and would benefit from social/political change.

[slipnslide]

No my dears, the problem is not with our leadership. It's with those of us who refuse to be led and don't want to help, but just want the benefit of the effort of others...or worse, live in denial of the fact that they need help and would benefit from social/political change.

Can you name a specific change that would benefit you personally?

I've thought about it and I can't.

[Pasadenacpl2]

LOL, and exactly what kind of leader would it take to represent and direct such a disparate group of people with such varying (and predominantly hedonistic) interests?

It's not just that the "leadership" we have is inadequate...it's that it is not possible for anyone to truly represent all views and interests of bisexuals. We aren't really all that interested in being helped.

What would said leader do, exactly? Lead a political movement for social awareness, while advocating that "followers" stay at home and fuck who they want if they're so inclined? That might get everybody on board, but it is not how progress has ever been made in any cause.

No my dears, the problem is not with our leadership. It's with those of us who refuse to be led and don't want to help, but just want the benefit of the effort of others...or worse, live in denial of the fact that they need help and would benefit from social/political change.

You hit on the point, exactly. I wasn't saying that the leadership is inadequate. I was saying that folks like DJones who are espousing seperatism aren't capable of leading this group of people, and that their ideas aren't strong enough to be able to carry the day. Anything built upon a foundation of paranoia and isolationism will not be able to sway the bisexual "community."

Notice how I keep putting "community" in quotes? It's because there is no community (I do the same for the gay "community" too, so don't be offended). We aren't a community. We can't agree on common goals. We can't even agree on whether there is a problem or not.

But, even more importantly is the following. You said "those of us who refuse to be led..." Who are these leaders we are refusing to follow? Who appointed them? What qualifies them? People only follow if they feel the leadership is worth following. This is true in education, business, and society at large. It is true here.

It reminds me of an old Peanuts comic where Lucy laments that she keeps telling everyone what to do, but they just refuse to listen. "If they'd just do what I tell them..." she says.

Pasa

[BiDaveDtown]

What about those of us who are out as bisexual and have been for decades or years and we're accepted by others in the LGBT community and we're fine with being included in with gay men, lesbians, and trans people?

[just4mefc]

LOL, and exactly what kind of leader would it take to represent and direct such a disparate group of people with such varying (and predominantly hedonistic) interests?

No my dears, the problem is not with our leadership. It's with those of us who refuse to be led and don't want to help, but just want the benefit of the effort of others...or worse, live in denial of the fact that they need help and would benefit from social/political change.

First off Hello Annika long time since last we debated but I feel compelled to jump in here.

Once again we must start at the beginning... to be a community we must first define who we are. We can't, as a group, even come up with a general description of a "bisexual" umbrella that we would all agree we fall under. We sure as hell don't agree on our basic needs, i.e. does being bi give me carte blanche to not be monogamous? etc etc etc

Tennie mentioned that Bi's in SF were the most depressed etc. But what the study should have said was of those small number of people who were willing to label themselves as bi in our group we found the highest rate of depression etc. Big difference. How do we know if this data will apply to the seemingly huge number of unreported bisexual people? We can't. In fact with such a diverse group and such a wide range it is impossible to extract any meaningful data from the study.

My opinion has not changed much but I will repeat for the benefit of those who do not know my stance... We are only included in the LGBT for the increase in political power we might represent. I am not in favor of removing us from the political machine but I do not feel welcome in most LGBT situations. I tire of the argument "you are just on a path to gay" it does not bother me it is just boring at this point.

It would appear that most "bi" people do not have the same need for the very powerful "outing" process that gays often benefit from. Don't get me wrong some do and I have personally felt a greater sense of self when I have shared my orientation with some people. But I see no additional benefit for my life to hang a flag from my car. I don't have a need to broadcast my sexual behaviors to the general public. For instance I love anal sex with my wife but I don't have a sign in the front yard with an ass bent over to prove it. Oddly upon disclosure of my bisexuality, I have often received more support from str8 friends then from gay ones. Perhaps they are just hoping for a BJ lol.

Anyway back to the OP. We represent the worst option to both the extremists - we have CHOICE. We have spent millions of dollars and many lives have been lost in trying to prove that homo/hetero is not a choice. It made sense for these groups. Stop killing us for something we did not create nor can change. I get it. Very important. So now most americans see "gay" as not a choice and therefore some of the judgement has rescinded (Point of reference increasing number of gay marriage states etc... ) But now we come along, those who can chose this or that and be happy. Now what? The LGT world has made inroads by being somewhat accepted (ah not their fault, poor things). Let's face it, the political gay movement would most likely be very happy to have us just go away and stop, what they perceive, undermining their position and power. How do we, as a political group, now convince the str8 world that we too were born this way. What way exactly is that? Some of us can be very happy in either world, some clearly need to have both sexes in their lives, still others just fall under more of a sexual fetish group. The only political argument we can try to make is "who we sleep with is our business and does not effect you" I doubt we will get very far.

Perhaps it is as some have suggested, we are looking for a answer to a non-exsistent problem??? Not sure I buy that, but could be.

[Annika L]

Can you name a specific change that would benefit you personally?

I've thought about it and I can't.

As a woman with a female partner who lives in a conservative rural area (albeit not far from larger more liberal centers) I would be greatly benefited personally by any decrease in animosity/increase in tolerance toward LGBT people. The danger to my person and property would decrease, and that would in turn lower my background stress levels. No, I don't live in daily fear of persecution and violence...my life is pretty cushy, fortunately...but the threat is still there, greater than it should be, and does decrease my quality of life.

Less dramatic but more specific to bisexuality, if people better recognized bisexuality as a sexuality and a real phenomenon in the world, I would get fewer questions/insistences that I am actually lesbian. People simply would be less likely to make that assumption when they see a female couple. This one doesn't lower my quality of life nearly so much, but still measurably so.

These are two off the top of my head, and you only asked for one, so I'll stop here.

It's also worth recognizing that the first change I mentioned might benefit me significantly-but-no-hugely, but it would benefit others in the LGBT community drastically. Unlike you, perhaps, I don't require a cause to benefit me personally in order for me to support it. Intolerance toward the LGBT is simply ignorant and unjust...those two things alone are worth fighting against, regardless of any personal benefit.

[Annika L]

What about those of us who are out as bisexual and have been for decades or years and we're accepted by others in the LGBT community and we're fine with being included in with gay men, lesbians, and trans people?

What about you? You're awesome! Keep doing what you're doing.

[tenni]

Diva
I will ask again if you have actually read the San Francisco Human Rights Commission report? From what you have posted about it not being "their" responsibility, I can determine that you have not read the report.

In fact, it was found that it was systemic within the GLBT group that received funds for programmes for bisexuals was not providing these programmes. They were using the numbers of bisexuals to get funds. There were no bisexuals on their board. Not all such organizations are as bad but "we" don't know. It was "their" fault and not "our" fault that this was going on. I can not remember why the Human Rights commission created this study but I bet that it was some of "our" people...da bisexuals that bitchted about how they were being treated. Structural changes were suggested in the study including insuring that bisexuals were represented on the board of the GLBT organization.

I agree with Pasa about the use of the word "community". There are in fact GLBT organizations in certain communities offering services for some bisexuals as well as G&L & T. Those are the communities. The geographic places were change would need to begin. It isn't going to happen in a more broader generic sense of "community" let alone on some internet website.

That is why djones and Not lost may be on to something. They come from a very large community where there may be sufficient numbers to develop structure and organizations for bisexuals just outside of their GLBT organizations. With numbers may come the ability to receive funds for bisexuals. The now probably more powerful GLBT organizations may resist and resent any attempt to take funding away from them. Perhaps within the community of New York city the GLBT may become more supportive and the bisexuals of New York city may work within but more separate. The squeaky wheel gets the oil concept.

Hell, it is possible my entire country is based on such a community nationally of French and English where the French pretty much get a lot as being or threatening separation...:eek:

Just4
I haven't read the SF study recently but I believe that it addressed the issue of bisexuals who were not visible. Or it addressed this issue by referencing other studies that found those who were not open about their sexuality. Those bisexuals particiapted in the studies and that may be how the Commission partially found the section about medical /stress issues for bisexuals. The commission combined those studies with what was going on within the GLBT organization in SF.

[Annika L]

First off Hello Annika long time since last we debated but I feel compelled to jump in here.

Once again we must start at the beginning... to be a community we must first define who we are. We can't, as a group, even come up with a general description of a "bisexual" umbrella that we would all agree we fall under. We sure as hell don't agree on our basic needs, i.e. does being bi give me carte blanche to not be monogamous? etc etc etc

Tennie mentioned that Bi's in SF were the most depressed etc. But what the study should have said was of those small number of people who were willing to label themselves as bi in our group we found the highest rate of depression etc. Big difference. How do we know if this data will apply to the seemingly huge number of unreported bisexual people? We can't. In fact with such a diverse group and such a wide range it is impossible to extract any meaningful data from the study.

My opinion has not changed much but I will repeat for the benefit of those who do not know my stance... We are only included in the LGBT for the increase in political power we might represent. I am not in favor of removing us from the political machine but I do not feel welcome in most LGBT situations. I tire of the argument "you are just on a path to gay" it does not bother me it is just boring at this point.

It would appear that most "bi" people do not have the same need for the very powerful "outing" process that gays often benefit from. Don't get me wrong some do and I have personally felt a greater sense of self when I have shared my orientation with some people. But I see no additional benefit for my life to hang a flag from my car. I don't have a need to broadcast my sexual behaviors to the general public. For instance I love anal sex with my wife but I don't have a sign in the front yard with an ass bent over to prove it. Oddly upon disclosure of my bisexuality, I have often received more support from str8 friends then from gay ones. Perhaps they are just hoping for a BJ lol.

Anyway back to the OP. We represent the worst option to both the extremists - we have CHOICE. We have spent millions of dollars and many lives have been lost in trying to prove that homo/hetero is not a choice. It made sense for these groups. Stop killing us for something we did not create nor can change. I get it. Very important. So now most americans see "gay" as not a choice and therefore some of the judgement has rescinded (Point of reference increasing number of gay marriage states etc... ) But now we come along, those who can chose this or that and be happy. Now what? The LGT world has made inroads by being somewhat accepted (ah not their fault, poor things). Let's face it, the political gay movement would most likely be very happy to have us just go away and stop, what they perceive, undermining their position and power. How do we, as a political group, now convince the str8 world that we too were born this way. What way exactly is that? Some of us can be very happy in either world, some clearly need to have both sexes in their lives, still others just fall under more of a sexual fetish group. The only political argument we can try to make is "who we sleep with is our business and does not effect you" I doubt we will get very far.

Perhaps it is as some have suggested, we are looking for a answer to a non-exsistent problem??? Not sure I buy that, but could be.

((((((((((( Just4me )))))))))))) Long time, no see!

I don't really see that we have much grounds for debate or disagreement here. As usual you raise lots of valid and interesting points.

I will say that (although I personally am a huge fan of definition) lack of definition never stopped the LG community from making strides and pursuing rights (some of which are enjoyed by the entire LGBT community). So I'm not positive that having a well-defined and cohesive community is critical for progress. But we do need a critical mass of people who recognize common interests to make progress.

Your observation "I am not in favor of removing us from the political machine but I do not feel welcome in most LGBT situations." is right on the money for me, and sums up beautifully the critical point between djones and the counter-arguments. Djones doesn't want to be part of a political machine that serves (primarily) people he doesn't feel welcome among. The other side views that tradeoff as worthwhile.

I'll tell you what. I don't feel terribly welcome among the vast majority of Americans, either, or feel that the interests that they pursue reflect mine well...but while I live here, I'm not about to bow out of its political process and form my own party.

[slipnslide]

It's also worth recognizing that the first change I mentioned might benefit me significantly-but-no-hugely, but it would benefit others in the LGBT community drastically. Unlike you, perhaps, I don't require a cause to benefit me personally in order for me to support it. Intolerance toward the LGBT is simply ignorant and unjust...those two things alone are worth fighting against, regardless of any personal benefit.

I guess one problem I have is with the assumption that because I'm bi I should think it's a good think and fight for it just because I am. Where does this automatic acceptance come from? Just because I'm born that way? The people who think it's wrong aren't swayed by poetry. What is the fundamental argument I can present to validate bisexuality. So far, I don't know what that is. I'm not the personality type to just accept things. I need to get in deep and understand.

I guess a high school math teacher would say I want to prove it from first principle. How is bisexuality, as an innate characteristic, more positive than an addictive personality?

For many biological features we can see the evolutionary rationale. Sexuality is was more difficult to explain. Plus, there's hints of research now that suggest it's "curable" and may be treated like anxiety or depression.

[w00ki33]

Depends...
is it a good-looking rainbow?

[ErosUrge]

Darling, if it was not for discussion, argument and activism, you would most likely be or have been in prison for your 'hot bi sex' since it was those things that enable you to get your bisexual legover quite legally in the first instance. It was discussion, argument and activism which has made this site possible for you to be able to express your questions and desires. It is discussion, argument and activism which has stopped you being branded a pervert, and it is discussion, argument and activism which may just prevent the world from turning on us and forcing us back into the closet.

Think about those things next time that little organ at the end of your cock goes into overdrive.

All that you say is so true. There is no doubt that my 'freedom' in my own acceptance of my sexuality was a victory. But I realize now that in moving beyond the bounds of my own ideoligies and home that there is a need for activism and organization. Somehow to be able to be looked upon as a 'normal' human being is important and not be rejected or condemned because I am sexual with both sexes. I'm not quite sure how this will be accomplished and is a complicated matter to say the least. But I am so glad that at least now and hear that we are discussing and arguing and hopefully will become active to bring light on who we are. Though usually optimistic, there is a bit of pessimism I feel in relation to convincing the greater public that we not only exist but have the right to be who we are. And yes up to this point we are better off than ever before but the work is long from over. In fact, it's never over. It's a constant and we must be willing to make the difference.

[Katja]

This is part of the problem, Katja. We, the bisexual "community" can't really agree on what is important.

To you, it's about something far more and far bigger than what we find in the pants. And that's fantastic. To others, it's all about the sex. And that's ok too.

Look at the profiles on this site. In fact, I challenge you to look at a different city than your own (we become blind to the ones we've seen a thousand times). What do you find? A bunch of MWM who are looking for "discrete" (that's code for cheating on your wife) encounters. People who describe themselves as top, bottom, seeking oral only, etc... THIS is the vast majority of profiles on this site, and I didn't even go into the guys who only post dick shots on their profile photos.

Not very different from gay sites, really. Or gay hangouts. Not that you can go, Katja, but a "men's club" is really just a place for gay men to go hookup for anonymous sex (oh..and enjoy the pool). It's all about the sex, and pretty seedy, even if the facility is nice (of which some are far better than others).

This is part of the problem with the LGBT community in general. A vast majority are so caught up in the hedonism of it all, that they don't understand the very real complexities. And some are so caught up in those complexities that they miss the more hedonistic fun.

And it won't change until we have leadership that is more interested in leading us for our own sake than they are in what the other letters in LGBT do to us.

Pasa

First of all, and this isnt important particualarly but pertinent in a way, I live outside of a very small village in the most beautiful part of England. It is not the most progressive part of this green and pleasant land, but in the last eighteen months or so people have come to accept my sexuality if not exactly approve of it,

There is no lgbt organisation of any kind for 50 miles or so and the numbers of gay, lesbian and bisexual people who are open about their sexuality can be counted just about on one hand and those who are not open is anyones guess. Summer tourism improves the situation and to a lesser extent at other times of the year, but there is no local organisation for me to play a part in.

Please don't misunderstand me. I do think about these issues and do believe in the things I say. I know how difficult and complex they are. But I am not a great lgbt activist although I have and do attend meetings when and where possible and do little bits here and there to further the cause of sexual liberation and equality. But I enjoy sex as much as the next person and am really no different from most of the other people on this site or bisexuals around the world.

I too have gone to places with the intention of meeting with my own gender and hoping to get laid. This is little different from the scenario you describe about men's clubs. Equally I have gone clubbing and yearned for the opposite gender. This is also to my mind no different to what you outline and what I have done to find another woman.

But sexuality is about more than just getting laid. It is in large part who we are and substantially determines our outlook in life. How bisexuals act sexually is little different from those who are hetero or homosexual, the only difference I see is that we have an option of gender. It is that option which many non bisexuals object to and makes them react as they do and believe what they do about us. Where we can, we have a responsibility to ourselves to correct any assumptions they make about us, and we do not do that by ranting and raving about it not mattering what we find in someones pants and making such a gleeful song and dance about it.

Most people are followers not leaders. That the bisexual community as such has no leaders that I know of is something we have somehow to deal with. The make up of the bisexual community, with so many coming late to their sexuality, being married and closeted and all the difficulties that entails holds us back. They are major reasons why we have never produced great influential figures eminent in the GLBT movement, It is why it has always been gay and lesbians who have led the way.

There is such criticism of gays and lesbians by many bisexual people, we forget that were it not for them, bisexuality would not even be on the agenda, and the greatly improved life and opportunity we have as bisexuals would never have materialised. They led the way and the state of sexual equality for all within the GLBT umbrella is more a testament to them, their ingenuity and courage than any other group within the movement.

We are Johnny Come Lately's to the struggle and it is time we stopped griping about gays and lesbians running the show and doing us down, and started asserting our influence as worthy members of the movement. And if we are not prepared to do that, then we should just sit back and stay quiet and take whatever is decided on our behalf. But if we stay quiet, and allow gays and lesbians to run the show, and have no input ourselves, then it is not surprising that so many of them think of us as parasites, fencesitters and sex sluts who do not know their own minds. If we stay quiet and allow them to run the show, is it surprising that the world talks of gay issues, gay marriage, gay phobia? If we stay quiet then we have no right to gripe that we have had no influence on how the world progresses lgbt issues. If we stay quiet, whatever comes, we will just have to grin and bear it.

[Annika L]

I guess one problem I have is with the assumption that because I'm bi I should think it's a good think and fight for it just because I am. Where does this automatic acceptance come from? Just because I'm born that way? The people who think it's wrong aren't swayed by poetry. What is the fundamental argument I can present to validate bisexuality. So far, I don't know what that is. I'm not the personality type to just accept things. I need to get in deep and understand.

I guess a high school math teacher would say I want to prove it from first principle. How is bisexuality, as an innate characteristic, more positive than an addictive personality?

For many biological features we can see the evolutionary rationale. Sexuality is was more difficult to explain. Plus, there's hints of research now that suggest it's "curable" and may be treated like anxiety or depression.

An addictive personality has negative side-effects if it submits to an addiction. Addiction is partly defined by disfunctionality. E.g., you are considered addicted to alcohol if your drinking causes problems in your life and you still do it. Note that this is despite alcohol being legal and available for purchase by adults.

If bisexuality (or more generally, same-sex sex) was accepted by society as normal, I ask myself who it would be hurting and how? As long as I have no answer to that question, I see no reason people with this quality should be persecuted.

I look at all the research that shows that same-sex attraction occurs in *many* if not all species.

Your problem (as I see it) with seeking a fundamental basic-principles argument for bisexuality is that seeking such an argument already presumes that bisexuality is bad and needs to be defended. I don't hear you or others seeking fundamental arguments why it's ok to eat chips...let's all go out and kick some chip-eating ass! Or why it's ok to seek fundamental arguments. It's just that society doesn't have emotional baggage around those topics (though some argue that we should around the chip-eating thing). But does that make them better than bisexuality? More valid? Give me a reason why it should.

Same-sex attraction/sex is a natural variation in human/animal preference/behavior, and it causes no harm to anyone...why does it require a fundamental argument defending its validity?

Just because some people are touchy about it? Sheesh, I'm not about to internalize their issues and/or guilt!

[Gearbox]

We represent the worst option to both the extremists - we have CHOICE. We have spent millions of dollars and many lives have been lost in trying to prove that homo/hetero is not a choice. It made sense for these groups. Stop killing us for something we did not create nor can change. I get it. Very important. So now most americans see "gay" as not a choice and therefore some of the judgement has rescinded (Point of reference increasing number of gay marriage states etc... ) But now we come along, those who can chose this or that and be happy. Now what?
I really have a problem with the gay stance on 'No choice'. Not sexuality-wise, but freedom of choice-wise.
It seems that Homosexuality is being peddled politically as a 'disability'. It's not their fault, they didn't choose, it's incurable etc etc etc
So laws and perceptions are swayed to facilitate their 'tragic circumstances'.
Poor things! They just can't help being born that way.:(

IMO they have that all wrong!
They will never be considered as part of a whole. They will always be the part of Human Population that suffered a 'wonky Gene'. The ones that special laws & exceptions are made for. Laws & exceptions that Heterosexuals are not part of. It's all just for those 'special people' who's genes forbid them to be 'normal' and Human Rights have to defend/protect.

What they should be doing IMO (Oh dear me!lol), is fight for their right to CHOOSE!:)
'Same sex marriage' should be about CHOICE! Not exceptions due to NO CHOICE!
Choices that we ALL (every sexuality & gender) should have in society as a whole.
We ALL should have rights to choose what the Hell we want to do, and be, to whatever gender adult if we God damned want to!
Gender should not be a factor! Choice should be! (ask any women's lib activist!).

What the LGBT need is a bisexual up there to sort this crap out! And I'm just the man for the job!:bigrin: OK! I'm not the man for the job! (too slutty!lol).
But this bi-phobia, fear of the word 'Choice' is doing more harm than good from public speakers on behalf of GAYS. They IMO don't represent bisexuals because they don't represent Choice! It's the opposite!

Transexuals have to fight to be recognised as a different gender! Another example where gender is classed as more important than it should be, and Choice as not as important as it should be!

People CHOOSE a religion! They get rights due to those choices. So it should be for every facet of society.
We ALL should have the right to choose and make use of every social position without gender discrimination.
:2cents:

[slipnslide]

If bisexuality (or more generally, same-sex sex) was accepted by society as normal, I ask myself who it would be hurting and how? As long as I have no answer to that question, I see no reason people with this quality should be persecuted.


Maybe it all needs to be decomposed down further into bisexual men and bisexual women. If you do a "bisexual men STD rates" into Google you'll find the same startling story across the world. Infection rates are up, up, and up!

It would appear that this current state of internet-driven hedonism amongst bi men is a danger to public health.

This issue hurts many. Where I live the conservative media has been tacitly reporting on the costs of our publicly paid sexual health clinics and how the majority of infections are men. While this isn't only bi guys, but gay guys too, we all get painted with the same brush as the result of media campaigns trying to get MSM community under control.

So right there we've got the "We Demand to be Taken Seriously" (a shout out to Arrested Development fans) vs. "yeah well you guys need to start being responsible first".

This is another example of a need for leadership. Where is the "okay you hedonistic little whore monkeys, cut it out" message going to come from so we can move past it?

Finally, I don't see these stats about women, but I don't know whether that is behaviour or just simply that biology makes infections more difficult for them to transmit.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Umm...Let me see if I can explain why the "being born this way" argument is needed. Follow the logic tree....

1. People by and large allow their religious beliefs to direct the laws and customs they support (no matter what the topic).
2. Homosexuality is a sin before God.
3. Laws and customs will not support homosexuality.

If it's a choice, then the logic tree stops there. Sin is a choice. This is a fundamental building block of Christianity. We choose to sin, making it something we could have avoided, and thereby making it something we must ask forgiveness for.

Now...if homosexuality is genetic, then we have a different logic tree.

1. Same as before.
2. Sin is a choice, therefore, it cannot be a sin to be homosexual.

The problem is that we essentially have broken the options to: genetic, or choice. This misses the mark. It is far more accurate to say: sexuality can be fixed at one setting, or can be fluid. This does nothing to deny that one's sexuality is genetic.

If we frame it in this fashion, we are still able to deny the religious right their position on the sinfulness of it. God would not create someone this way and then enforce a policy of self-denial. Just doesn't follow the rest of God's message.

Pasa

[elian]

That is something I struggle with too Pasa. To be honest, a combination of factors seems to have influenced my desire for intimacy from the same sex. I have always known I was different, I was affectionate, not competitive; but environment and experience seemed to be the catalyst that really brought it out. It didn't help that I was sexualized at a very young age - easy to get sex and love confused.

Being gay IS a choice right? I can choose to suffer in misery by denying a fundamental part of who I am -or- I can accept myself internally but be disliked by at least half of society at large and have to live my life with more fear and anger.

It is hard to believe that someone would willingly and voluntarily CHOOSE to live in fear of losing their life, employment, family, property and friendships JUST to be gay..so therefore something much more fundamental is going on - whether that's "genetics" or just people working through their own life's journey at any one specific point in time I can't tell you. I can't tell you that being LGBT is also all about the sex, I think there are mental, physical and spiritual components of the experience that all play a part in the perceptions we hold about ourselves.

If labels didn't mean so much people would be accepted for who they are regardless of gender, skin color, class or who they choose to love. I mean, STRAIGHT people could "love' guys and no one would care!!

My eyes may see one thing, but my heart sees another, and it's just plain wrong to treat people badly because of who they choose to love.

Stereotypes suck, period.

[Annika L]

Maybe it all needs to be decomposed down further into bisexual men and bisexual women. If you do a "bisexual men STD rates" into Google you'll find the same startling story across the world. Infection rates are up, up, and up!

It would appear that this current state of internet-driven hedonism amongst bi men is a danger to public health.

This issue hurts many. Where I live the conservative media has been tacitly reporting on the costs of our publicly paid sexual health clinics and how the majority of infections are men. While this isn't only bi guys, but gay guys too, we all get painted with the same brush as the result of media campaigns trying to get MSM community under control.

So right there we've got the "We Demand to be Taken Seriously" (a shout out to Arrested Development fans) vs. "yeah well you guys need to start being responsible first".

This is another example of a need for leadership. Where is the "okay you hedonistic little whore monkeys, cut it out" message going to come from so we can move past it?

Finally, I don't see these stats about women, but I don't know whether that is behaviour or just simply that biology makes infections more difficult for them to transmit.

If *people* (bisexuals, porn stars, librarians, or otherwise) are causing a public health problem because they are not practising safe sex, then the correct response is not to censure or persecute bisexuals, porn stars, or librarians...the correct response is to educate the sectors of society that are causing the problem. Nobody (outside of, no doubt, a sick few) wants to spread disease and be a public health nuisance.

So if that's your response to why we need a defense/argument for why we should be allowed to be bisexual, I'm afraid I don't buy it.

[Annika L]

And by the way, THANK YOU djones for sparking one of the best (and thus far most civil) debates I've seen on here in a *long* time!!

LOTS of great thoughts from all kinds of different angles and points of view. In my humble opinion, this is us at our best!

[elian]

If *people* (bisexuals, porn stars, librarians, or otherwise) are causing a public health problem because they are not practising safe sex, then the correct response is not to censure or persecute bisexuals, porn stars, or librarians...the correct response is to educate the sectors of society that are causing the problem. Nobody (outside of, no doubt, a sick few) wants to spread disease and be a public health nuisance.

So if that's your response to why we need a defense/argument for why we should be allowed to be bisexual, I'm afraid I don't buy it.

Well, the defining moment of my generation (besides the Space Shuttle Challenger incident) was watching Peter Jennings put a condom on a banana over network TV - sadly I cannot find any youtube footage of this monumentous event..maybe you are right Annika - we should have another public service announcement. I do see PSA's for HIV testing on TV now..

[djones]

I was saying that folks like DJones who are espousing seperatism aren't capable of leading this group of people, and that their ideas aren't strong enough to be able to carry the day. Anything built upon a foundation of paranoia and isolationism will not be able to sway the bisexual "community."


Not sure where you come up with the idea that my foundation is born of paranoia. Nothing I have said or posted is paranoid. Further, I have never espoused isolationism - only the hope that we can stand up for ourselves and stop waiting for the LGBT "leadership" to finally notice us.

As to your assessment of my leadership skills, never having met me or engaged in the discussion groups or social organizing groups I am an active part of, you have little ground to criticize. I make no claims to leadership, but I am active in organizing - not paranoid counter offensives against the LGBT boogy man, but entertainment / cultural / social events for the Bisexual community in NYC.

[slipnslide]

Let's just all agree that no good deed goes unpunished.

[djones]

And by the way, THANK YOU djones for sparking one of the best (and thus far most civil) debates I've seen on here in a *long* time!!

LOTS of great thoughts from all kinds of different angles and points of view. In my humble opinion, this is us at our best!

Thank you for the compliment. It truly is my aim to engage in ideas - not provoke or insult. What may or may not come out of this discussion in the immediate is almost less important than the fact that we are getting the discussion going, and the ideas out there.
Thanks again.

One Love

[Dorian Earnest]

[QUOTE=djones;205637]Hello Friends,

Perhaps you have seen in other threads that I am very unhappy with the LGBT "community" and the whole "Rainbow" thing.

Let me clarify -

I am not in opposition to Gay, Lesbian or Transgendered individuals.

Repeat :

I am not in opposition to Gay, Lesbian or Transgendered individuals.


So -- why are you in such opposition to Gay, Lesbian and Transgendered Individuals? LOL

I just can't understand such closed-mindedness! Taste the Rainbow!

[Pasadenacpl2]

Not sure where you come up with the idea that my foundation is born of paranoia. Nothing I have said or posted is paranoid. Further, I have never espoused isolationism - only the hope that we can stand up for ourselves and stop waiting for the LGBT "leadership" to finally notice us.

As to your assessment of my leadership skills, never having met me or engaged in the discussion groups or social organizing groups I am an active part of, you have little ground to criticize. I make no claims to leadership, but I am active in organizing - not paranoid counter offensives against the LGBT boogy man, but entertainment / cultural / social events for the Bisexual community in NYC.


I came up with the idea that your foundation is based upon paranoia with your incessant mentioning of the leadership of the LGBT movement, gay white men, and other such things. Your postings about Dan Savage and the organizers of the NYC Pride parade. I've noted it several times. This is the first time you've responded.

I do criticize. This very thread title, "Fuck the Rainbow" and other such posts have indeed espoused isolationism. We cannot achieve our goals by eschewing our allies (something you have claimed we do not have).

I am glad you are active in organizing. I actually hope you do well with this. But, you are off to a very rocky start due to it being far less about us and far more about the gay white men who are supposedly our enemies (or not our allies, at the very least).

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

And let me clarify even further. It's not just DJones I refer to. It's Atiq, and Tenni, and a few others who are on and on about how the LGBT movement is only using us, and how they are our enemies who I refer to. This is a paranoid stance that assumes some sort of vast organization out to get us.

I'm opposing the viewpoint...not the particular people.

Pasa

[Long Duck Dong]

my friends and I just meet at the pub, no politics, no agenda, just friends that have open arms and a rep as LGBT people, and our group has grown more than the local LGBT group, cos the lgbt support group are still stuck on the * we are LGBT, society doesn't accept us and acknowledge us as LGBT *

one of the people that knocked what we do, is a member of this site and a closeted member at that.... who is also vocal about bi visibility and bi erasure and how bisexuals should be more visible.....

that is a clear difference between talking in this site and honestly being out there in the public eye and showing people that we are not bisexual people, we are people that are bisexual, our lives are not controlled by our sexuality and genitalia, its not the only thing we have to crow about..... and we are not all people that need open / poly relationships.......

its been made clear in a number of threads that non sexual bisexuals / asexuals / people that are happy in monogamous relationships and marriages, are not a good look for the bisexual community, as we do not reflect the ideals of *acceptance and tolerance of open relationships / marriage * and our partners *assume their place * in the relationship as all good heteros / monosexuals should do.....

sorry.... I am bisexual, many of my friends are bisexual, we are sexual and non sexual, monogamous / closed / open / poly relationships / marriages, single, attached etc etc...... that is the community for better or worse...... a community of bisexual people...... and that is whom you want to think about..... cos the non sexual issues are as real as the sexual ones.....

there is family / friends / lovers and loved ones that are every bit a part of our lives.... yet so many times when advice is asked, the replies are generally about how to get permission from partners to sexual activities outside of the relationship..... not how to strengthen the relationship and the people in it so it can withstand the hiccups of open relationships or the rights of both partners.......

that is the guts of your community...... that is where your eyes need to be.... not on the needs of the bisexual person but on the needs of the people that are bisexual and those they love and whom love them.....

its not about who has what funding and who is marching in what parade, cos thats one day a week / month / year stuff...... and the daily issues we face, are every day issues.... and they are the ones we struggle with the most...and that is when the bisexual community can really shine...... by being a community..... unless the bisexual community want to be like a commune where everybody fucks everybody and the outside world looks on in shock and horror.... and wonders what the hell is going on


and that is why so many bisexuals are not involved in the bisexual community.....

[NotLostJustWandering]

Nice to see that if I actually don't get around to posting, other people will come forward and, if not say exactly what I was going to, make similar points. I do still have a few points to add as well as say amen.

First, a little history lesson

It is NOT TRUE that bisexuals are "johnny-come-latelies" to the sexual liberation movement, and that we owe the degree of freedom we have to monosexual trailblazers. Bi people were part of the gay and women's liberation movements from their beginnings. For example, Brenda Howard, a bi woman, organized the very first Pride Parade in New York City. Some of these people identified as gay or lesbian but their sexual histories included lovers of both genders. In the beginning of the gay liberation movement, the word "gay" was often used inclusively of anyone who wasn't straight, and gay bars like Stonewall were frequented by men and women who we would now call gay, lesbian and bi.

The movement then became more militant and the importance of identifying with ones sexuality led to gender separation. "I remember when the doors of the gay bars began slamming in my face" writes Camille Paglia. Gay men began asserting their dominance and lesbians in turn began rebelling, demanding their share of recognition and organizing lesbian bars. Bi people were caught in the middle, our sexuality deemed fickle, anti-revolutionary, a copout. While gays and lesbians established their own bars, clubs, social and political organizations, bi people succumbed to the pressure to identify as gay or lesbian, or futilely protested being labeled. Having helped fight for sexual liberation, our own was denied.

The bi struggle, without and within

Apart from greater awareness and acceptance of homosexuality within mainstream society, little has changed since then. To even have a "B" added to the names of queer organizations has been an uphill struggle with our alleged allies. To be sure, while we may condemn their narrow-mindedness and fickleness, the blame must fall on our own heads for failing to assert our own identity in numbers that make a difference. We are still hesitant to even identify as a distinct group; the cry "I don't want to be labeled" still rings in resistance to our very efforts to organize. It is not our nature to band together under an identity based on sexuality; this is the realm of those whose sexuality is fixed, simple, easily categorized.

It is much like the feminist struggle: fighting and seizing power comes more naturally to men than women, and so women have been subjugated by men, and in order to wrest back some degree of equality have had to resist their natural preference for peace and deference. Likewise, as strange as it may seem for us who just want to live without the constrictions of sexual identity, we must identify ourselves and distinguish ourselves from monosexuals if we are to be taken seriously, if our very existence is to be duly noted by straights and mono queers alike.

No, we are not johnny-come-latelies to the struggle for sexual liberation. We are johnny-come-latelies in fighting for OUR OWN.

What are our needs?

What are the distinct needs of bi people? This question has been raised in this thread and, albeit with a bit of hesitation, has been well answered. The points I make here are a bit of a rehash, but as djones demonstrated in his OP, sometimes a bit of repetition is needed to get ideas through people's heads!

• Externally:
We need society as a whole to recognize bisexuality for what it is and dispel myths concerning what it is not. Above all else, we need recognition of our awesome diversity. This includes the range of the Kinsey scale, the even greater complexity noted by the Klein scale, fluidity vs. stability, the ability of some of us to commit to a single partner while others among us require polyamory. Stereotypes can only be dispelled by airing distinctions. The extent of this need can be shown by how some of us only come to learn about how different we are from one another by coming to sites such as this one. What maintains ignorance about us is our own silence, our fear of being recognized for who we are.

We need freedom from discrimination and violence. In this realm our needs are quite congruent with those of the G&L populace, but in addition, we need to end discrimination from them as well!

•Internally:
Again, we must identify as bisexual, to ourselves and to each other, much as we may dislike identifying by sexuality. All labels can be dropped the day true sexual liberation has been won.

We need EACH OTHER as friends, allies, and lovers. It is important to create bi community by whatever means are at hand. Thank God for the Internet, but don't rely on it. Face-to-face meetings have their own unique power.

Again, being closeted and silent gets in the way. We are all surrounded by bi people we ourselves mistake for straight, gay or lesbian, because so few are willing to be public about their bisexuality. My calls to visibility have been met on this site with great fear; people warn of loss of jobs, friends and family; I have been personally maligned as dangerous and reckless for espousing my views. Tell me this: what freedoms have EVER been won without taking great personal risk? Every freedom we enjoy today we owe to brave people who put their very lives on their line for them.

Reactions to the call to bi separatism

I have floated the idea of bi separatism in three places: here on this forum, in Facebook bi groups, and at my main local bi meeting group, BiRequest in NYC. I never spelled out in detail what forms bi separatism should take. This was in part because, my not being much of an activist myself, the idea has been a bit fuzzy in my mind, and in part because I wanted to see how others would fill in the blanks themselves.

The difference in reactions on the part of the three groups has been striking. The reaction on this forum has been overwhelmingly negative and fearful, and the idea has been repeatedly misinterpreted as creating enmity between the bi and G&L communities, ceasing to work with G&L groups on common causes, or even shunning gay and lesbian people personally.

At BiRequest the response has been extremely positive. The presentation I gave at the beginning of the meeting called to discuss the topic was greeted with prolonged applause, and the meeting ended with the organization of a separate group to put the idea into action. A few people at the meeting expressed fears and reservations similar to those rampant here in this forum, but they were a distinct minority.

On Facebook the reaction has been somewhere in the middle. Some posters have expressed fear or animosity to the idea, others have chimed in their agreement.

I wonder at the difference in reactions. I also note that among the supporters of bi separatism here, the New York City area is disproportionately represented, and that no one living in small towns seems to like the idea. I am inclined to suspect that in order to see both the need and the possibility of bi separatism, you need to live in an area where there is a sufficiently large queer population to support a separate bi community, and for G&L people to imagine they don't need us, and feel free to make us feel unwelcome. Banding together may come more naturally in places where queer people are far and few between.

One reaction I got on Facebook was from the organizer of a bi group in upstate New York. She didn't dispute any of the reasons I put forth for separating, but spelled out the economic reasons for meeting in the same building as the local G&L groups, and demanded I name another place in her town where they could meet so cheaply. It may well be that outside of major metropolises, bi separatism is an idea ahead of its time.

It may also be that in a cramped, competitive and tense environment such as NYC's, G&L biphobia may be expressed more obnoxiously than in large cities in states like California or Florida.

I also can't help but notice that many people here seem to have little or no contact with other queer people apart from on-line connections. This would correlate with living in areas with small, closeted queer populaces and/or being closeted and fearful oneself.

The reasons for bi separatism and the form the movement is taking in NYC

The core reasons for bisexual people to claim our own spaces and organize our own groups is that monosexual people can not be expected to represent us or fight for our particular needs. But my particular motivation for seeing what bi people might think of the idea was my frustration at the sparse attendance of BiRequest meetings and how much complaining I heard there about how uncomfortable people felt meeting at the LGBT Center. I wondered, if these people come to the meetings despite their feelings about the location, how many more stay away out of feeling that even more strongly? If we met in a space that was our alone, would more people come?

Mind you, I myself don't have much of a problem meeting at the LGBT Center. I haven't experienced anything negative there, apart from some minor sexual harassment and, years ago, an attempt to initiate queer-Muslim dialogue fizzling out when the Center leadership flaked out on us. What I DO have a problem with is bi people failing to come together in community. I am inclined to think our centrifugal nature and resistance to identity politics is more to blame than our meeting at a community center run by mono queers, but if the latter condition is having any significant detriment, I would like to try something different.

I would say the idea of finding a different place for the BiRequest meetings was generally well-met by the BiRequest rank and file. However, the group leader has dismissed the idea unilaterally. I would rather the decision were made more democratically, but he is otherwise a very good leader, and I appreciate his offering his home as the meeting place for the separate group, so I'm not going to make an issue of it. Meanwhile the mood of the separate group has been "bis just wanna have fun" and has favored shunning all vestiges of politics, and instead organizing social events in various venues other than the Center, in the hopes of bringing more bi people out of the woodwork.

[Long Duck Dong]

nicely written atiq..... I personally have the feeling that smaller groups in social / private areas tend to be a valuable tool for the bisexual community as a support tool but on a larger scale, we need to be more socially visible and not just as groups in a building for the 3rd sunday of each month.....

our pub group is a visible face of mixed sexualities, as people, and showing others that we can laugh, joke, have fun and mingle with mainstream society, that we are really no different to other people and thats something that we have been told, has made us so much more approachable.... and a lot easier to relate to and get to know......

the same principal is one that can be used in any setting, from a knitting group to a bikers group etc etc..... but the bisexual communities often lack the numbers or have the numbers and make it exclusive.... and at times it can be like a black man trying to join the KKK if you will excuse the comparison....

now people may think that having a mixed sexuality group, defeats the purpose of a bisexual group.... well we simply lack the numbers to be bisexual only, we have too many sexuality friends and lovers, and our greatest strength is the very acceptance and tolerance of our differences.....

its why people like dan savage do not worry us... hes a man on a stage with a microphone, we are the people that can show society how wrong dan is about some of us..... and how right he is about others.....

[elian]

So part of the issue is that bisexual people do not have a clear identity and voice in the group of LGBT? That begs the question of all questions then .. DO bisexuals have an easier time blending into a group -and- isn't that why some of the others in the wider group feel uneasy about us? I mean, a bisexual could theoretically cross the divide between gays and lesbians at will. Crossing that divide is something that a lot of L and G have difficulty with. You could argue that the divide not should exist in the first place, but we ARE human beings after all, and presented with limited resources in a competitive environment we are the ultimate differentiators..

I think it's a more complex problem than what appears on the face. We could spend a LOT of energy thinking about it. When you are struggling to get your point heard and rights for your group for YEARS - do you wait for the other groups to gain critical mass and go "united" or do you go it alone? This is a question a lot of LGBT have wrestled with. But we are in subsets of groups all of the time, I'm not sure why this one should be any different.

-E

[Katja]

Atiq, it was not my intention to say that bisexuals were not active right from the beginning of the struggle, but I am saying that in those early days bisexuals and the transgendered were much less considered because the world knew so much less about them. Conditions in society in both the USA and the UK were such that they were invisible not because they were not there, but society was for them a far less friendly place than it is even now.

In respect of the transgendered, at the time homosexuality was legalised in England, there were only a handful of transgendered people and world wide they were few and far between.

Of course in those early days they played their part, but my point is still valid. The world was different then and the existence and status of both the transgendered and bisexuals was not so well known or understood and in the case of bisexuals at least for reasons which are still relevant today, much more secretive about their existence.

[Long Duck Dong]

we have been more visible than the gay or lesbian communities for many many years.... cos we never stood out..... its the same as the hetero community, they never stood out either.... its the gay and lesbian community that did....

looking at a stranger walking down the road, you can not tell if he is bi gay or hetero..... now the same stranger holds hands with a girl... and he still could be bi, gay or hetero....... they kiss, he still could be bi or hetero and most likely not gay.....and its most likely not his sister....

so when we talk about being invisible, how are we invisible when so are the heterosexuals.... their sexuality is not clear, its assumed by us as well as the heterosexuals....

even heterosexuals struggle with growing up and puberty and sexual attraction, the same as we do..... yet they remain invisible.... no hetero support groups, no hetero parades etc, and they suffer a lot more than we do in types of bullying, suicides, discrimination and it only gets really gets attention when its a minority group.... or one fucking big mess.....

when we talk about being invisible, lol we are more visible with our support groups, bi pride parades, bi days etc than the bloody heteros and we are still playing the victim card.....

[softfruit]

To return to the original subject of separate organising - which I think has an important place because of the different levels of visibility, social acceptance, political voice etc of the different strands of the LGBT rainbow - lots of us are already doing that. There's not a simple "either / or" here: there are things I do with a wider LGBT movement, there are things I do that are very bi focused, and there are things I do that are nowt to do with either, in my social and political and even work lives.

Separate bi organising is nothing new. And there's nothing stopping you getting going in doing it. In a little over a month I'll be at a party to celebrate 30 years of organised bi spaces in the UK - starting from the London Bi Group back in 1981, on a long trail through things like BiCon, BCN magazine, other groups whether community centre serious meetups or social pub meets. It's already happening: it's just up to you whether to choose to join in. :flag4:

[hgf33]

I guess my last post to the After Elton Dan Savage thread should've been posted here instead. I'll probably repeat some of the things I wrote in that post, in this one.

I am only going to say a little more on this subject, because all this arguing about activism, while necessary, has become heavy and exhausting. I'd like to see us all get back to being happy, horny bisexuals who are making friends here, not enemies! We can't even seem to come together and agree as bisexuals. This makes it pretty hard for everyone else to think we're anything but confused as hell!

First of all, why the lack of pride here? Why is it that some of you won't just accept your bisexuality?! This, I absolutely can't understand. I've heard so many of you say that you aren't proud of your sexuality, or that you don't accept it, and you, instead, try to figure out "why". I can't even begin to tell you how damaging this is to your self esteem! It's self-loathing, no different than people who wish they could change physical or personality traits. There are parts of me I don't like but I don't try to scientifically figure out why I have the genes I have. If I was going to loathe anything, it would be my genetic predisposition to anxiety. But I don't, I accept it. There's nothing I can do about it anyway. I hate the symptoms, but I accept the disorder because it's a part of me. Do you think people born of whatever-race refuse to accept their race? Do you think white people sit there saying "why am I white? I didn't choose to be white. I refuse to accept that I'm white!" Um, maybe if they're delusional! It's a ridiculous thought processs! (That's just an example... yes, some people don't like that they were born of a certain race, but really, what can they do about it?! They at least accept it.) I'm proud of my sexuality because it's a part of me. Actually, I am happy I'm bi! There are downsides, yeah, but there are downsides to everything. We have the whole world to choose from, we have eye candy everywhere we turn... we have it made! Being bisexual is exciting (it's very, VERY distracting, LOL, but exciting!) Anyway, you don't have to be proud of just your sexuality alone, but be proud of who you are, with it.

And let's set aside this thought that all gays treat their sexuality as some disease, like "woe is me, I never wanted to be gay, I didn't choose this, poor poor pitiful me, why am I this way?" My best friend is a lesbian, and she's damn happy that she's a lesbian! She accepts herself, regardless of what people want to think of her. That is strength and confidence at it's finest. It's inspiring, and we should all strive for the same outlook.

If we can't accept ourselves, how can we expect anyone else to accept us?!

I also don't understand all the talk about the LGBT community being "headed" by these ignorant assholes. There is no LGBT President, unless I missed something at the polls. No one heads it, we just ARE, we just exist. There are advocates, but there are advocates for every group. We don't have to agree with them. If you don't like someone who's being ignorant, don't pay attention to them. If you think Dan Savage is a douche, don't pay attention to him. Give your attention to those who care and understand. Another thing you can do? BE an advocate! I push LGBT rights all the time, but I am not pushing for just gay rights or bisexual rights. I push for HUMAN RIGHTS. Some of us just need to fight a little harder to be accepted. Instead of getting mad that everyone refers to it as "gay rights" and "gay marriage", why not look at it this way... regardless of what they call it, IT BENEFITS US, TOO. Accept it! No one is gonna call it bisexual marriage anyway. If you marry straight, it's a straight marriage. If you marry same-sex, it's a same-sex marriage. It's not even about sexuality. But seriously, if it helps our community, leave well-enough alone. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

We need to take responsibility as bisexual individuals to get people to understand us. Use your voice and who you are. People have a hard time accepting something when they have wrong information about them. Don't give them the wrong impression, and don't allow them to have wrong information.

A little separation from the rainbow doesn't hurt. After all, this is a bisexual site, not a LGBT site. That being said, separation doesn't boost acceptance in the bigger picture. If we have a separate group, then we need to take our power and move it into "the rainow." Are we showing people who we are by being closed off? Not at all! No one even knows that that there are so many of us, and that we are all here, discussing these issues. Many of the ones who dislike us are simply misunderstood, not hateful. Yeah, there are hateful gays, but there are hateful straights and hateful bisexuals and hateful people everywhere! It's individuals, not the community as a whole. Imagine if the rest of the community could see everything we talk about here! It would be eye opening, and it would be helpful!

If you feel you need to separate, fine, but do it with good intentions, not with opposition in your heart. I won't separate from the rainbow. I am the B in LGBT, and I am half gay, after all. I will push bi pride from within. Strength in numbers. Besides, get involved in the community more and you'll realize that they are really damn accepting! Get involved in the community more and we'll be more of a part of it! Sitting outside of it and complaining gets us nowhere.

People are stupid and ignorant everywhere. People like and dislike different things. We can't expect everyone to like us, just like we can't expect to like everyone. Good individuals will attract good individuals. Be one.

And lastly...
We want the gay community to accept us, plain and simple. Well, "Fuck the rainbow", is a pretty effective way to make sure they don't.

[slipnslide]

First of all, why the lack of pride here? Why is it that some of you won't just accept your bisexuality?! This, I absolutely can't understand. I've heard so many of you say that you aren't proud of your sexuality, or that you don't accept it, and you, instead, try to figure out "why".

Non-heteronormative is counterintuitive. What is the point to these sexualities? How does it benefit the species?

That's infinitely more interesting to me than the idea of waving a virtual flag and pretending I like being bisexual. I don't. Why do YOU insist than anyone should? I'm holding out hope that it can be corrected by pharmaceuticals within my lifetime.

[littlerayofsunshine]

There are racial differences amongst the races that effect their self esteem and make it hard to accept themselves or their culture. It is a known fact that there is a "light Skinned" v. "Dark Skinned" Or "Good Hair" v. "Nappy" in the African American communities. Even within African American families where one child may be the darkest or the lightest. There have been articles and guest appearances, by mothers who bleach their skin or their childrens skin to make them appear more acceptable to not only white society but depending on the community they live in. There is also similar in Asian cultures, where eye lid surgery and leg lengthening practices are done to appear more like how white people are perceived. Rarely anyone complains about being white, because white isn't a minority. Its sort of an inadequate comparison to make.

My passion for Bisexuals to have more acceptance and acknowledgement. Doesn't stem solely for what I believe should be for myself and adults like me. But for the generations after me, for my children and their friends. So on and so forth. Suicide rates for LGBT is around 4 times higher than in hetero teens. More so in conservative areas. When you can't externalize your feelings. You internalize them. When you are different and don't belong, you beat yourself to pieces. When you are constantly chastised for who you are, or what people think you are, you build yourself a small protective world that lets no one in. And its sad when their life isn't worth living to them but becomes worthy only of their death.

Bisexual teens, who don't deserve to be mistaken as gay, who don't deserve to be taunted as gay, have very little choice in where to turn when their only choices are continue to hide and lie, or tie themselves to the gay community. Most schools don't have a lgbt group. To find a hotline other than suicide prevention would be very difficult to say the least. And for a teen where a minute is a lifetime. They may not have the time to spend praying and searching for a way to reach out.

I'm sure a lot of you think that for teens this day, they are more accepting and open minded than when many of us grew up. To an extent it is true. But Their world is small, and they don't always see the big pictures we get to see. And many never share their voice, they feel they can't. To their parents, their friends. For those gay, lesbian, bisexual teens their world is even smaller.

So we as the stronger voices. Need to help make a world where there is a place for all sexualities. For the bisexual teens, they need to also have their own special place in things. For they are not straight, gay, or lesbian. In my eyes, Their world is the smallest.

It saddens me to hear people speak the equivalent of "Sit in the back of the bus and enjoy the ride" mentality. I thought we had moved past that with rosa parks. The pioneer that everyone should sit where they want.

Those who speak of how utterly ridiculous the fuck the flag idea is. The way its worded isn't stated the best, but the thought is solid enough to be a possibility in making bisexuals voices get stronger. You can stand against the point as much as you want, but unless you offer a path, an idea, a compassionate response to the frustration, you are only brow beating and not educating anyone.

I consider myself a 4. I will not consider myself half gay. I am not. I am a bisexual. I do not hide behind one sexuality or another. I am confident in myself enough, that I don't have to. I wear my pride on my hand, in how I raise my children. And they know, as well as their friends. Any sexuality is welcomed in my home and in my heart. And if they have no where else to turn, they will have me and my husband to turn to. The future concerns me and in the future is where I apply myself.

As for the comparison to mammals and sexuality. It didn't just happen one day that people went oh Monkeys fuck same sexes. It had to be documented, someone had to stand out to wish to see it happen amongst different species, It had to be repetitively shown to many who had different beliefs, Someone had to stand behind and loud enough to be heard that it does indeed happen. Before it was even an accepted phenomena. And even amongst the scientific evidence. It is refused by the majority that it happens in Humans. And it will continue to stay that way as long as we stay in the back of the bus. And if you are comfortable there. I hope its a window seat.

[BiDaveDtown]

HGF I agree with you.

I don't like Dan Savage but he's not a gay/GLBT "leader" even if he wishes that he was. ;) He's not controversial at all unless you'd consider being a rude, condescending asshole who talks out of his ass about human sexuality to somehow be daring or controversial when it just makes him ignorant and bigoted.

I do ignore him and I do frequently speak out against him, and I do comment on his silly articles on the Seattle stranger's site.

If he was going to be the head or grand marshal of a Pride parade or some event I just wouldn't go to that event or march in it at all.

slipnslide-You're just proving HGF's point with your self loathing, false claims that most bisexual and gay men are diseased pariahas or walking petri dishes of HIV and other STDs-while completely ignoring that there are A LOT of heterosexual men and women who are HIV+ and have other STDs-with your thinking that HIV and other STDs are things that only bisexual and gay men really need to worry about which is not true, and by hoping that your non-hetero sexuality will someday be "cured" by pharmaceuticals.

I do agree with Softfruit. There already have been discussion groups and political groups geared for bisexuals only.

I remember in the 80s and 90s going to local bisexual groups in various cities that I lived in and again this is nothing new.

[Katja]

Non-heteronormative is counterintuitive. What is the point to these sexualities? How does it benefit the species?

That's infinitely more interesting to me than the idea of waving a virtual flag and pretending I like being bisexual. I don't. Why do YOU insist than anyone should? I'm holding out hope that it can be corrected by pharmaceuticals within my lifetime.

I find this a very sad post. It is something I have heard from several people, including a gay man. We are what we are and it is a problem that hs been caused by the ancient antipathy of 'normal' society to homosexuality and in more recent times bisexuality. Once or twice in my life I have also wistfully dreamed that my sexuality could be changed, but as time has moved on I am now much happier in myself and accept gladly what I am.

I have a very freckly face and body and have often wished them gone. Some day it may be possible to have them medically removed I don't know, but I no longer dream of me with a silky unmarked complexion. They are a part of me, just as big or small boobs, things which can be surgically altered are of the many women who do or don't have them seen to.

Sexuality is a much more important and fundamental part of us than our appearance. It is a part of our persona, our character, our spirit. To wish that gone changes who were are completely.

It is a condemnation of our societies that we cannot be accepted for what we are as easily as any heterosexual person, and those who wish their sexuality so treated are victims of that prejudice of the ages. Slipinside is just such a victim and it is a tragedy that he and those like him, all of those who are so miserable in their sexuality, cannot be happy with it, and treated as a normal decent human being.

It is as much as anything else for people such as the sexually miserable, something not of their making, that I believe our best interests are in remaining together as a whole 'queer' entity. Loosely based it will be, but ultimately united in a struggle which gives us the best chance of overcoming the obstacles before us to become simply people and considered in the same light as any within the heterosexual communty; on our merits not on our sexuality.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Non-heteronormative is counterintuitive. What is the point to these sexualities? How does it benefit the species?

It would be of no use at all if the Divine plan for humanity was merely to survive and breed like rats. If you educate yourself a bit on queer history you'll find that we have a disproportionate share of the world's artists, writers and musicians. Art, of course, has no function in advancing the survival of the human race, and the dogma proposed by the Atheist religion that we are here by accident and the blind forces of evolution and survival of the fittest have yet to explain why we all love music, enjoy tasty food and beautiful sunsets.

Ever wonder why the human race is alone in all species in not having a mating season? It's not all about breeding and survival.

Amongst "primitive" people the all-important role of shaman is/was played by people we would call queer or transgender. We who easily drift between worlds are valued in such societies for that very skill.

I fully understand your unhappiness in having a complex sexuality, and I pray that amidst the pain you find some meaning and purpose in the lot that has been chosen for you.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Non-heteronormative is counterintuitive. What is the point to these sexualities? How does it benefit the species?

That's infinitely more interesting to me than the idea of waving a virtual flag and pretending I like being bisexual. I don't. Why do YOU insist than anyone should? I'm holding out hope that it can be corrected by pharmaceuticals within my lifetime.

Uh....

Because being gay/bi/straight is not something that needs to be cured. None of it is a disease. I'm fairly offended by the thought.

Pasa

[slipnslide]

Suicide rates for LGBT is around 4 times higher than in hetero teens.

We have to be careful with this statistic and assigning causality. There is data and research to suggest that the non-heteronormative sexuality and the depression that results in suicide are symptoms of the same neurochemical force as opposed to the suicide being triggered by the sexuality.

I read on another site where a number of individuals stated that their sexuality varies with their mood. The more depressed they are the more gay they are and vice versa. Also people reported that anti-depressants resulted in diminished same sex attraction.

I guess I'm seeing my thoughts gel here. Rah rah! fanaticism and fluffy poetic language and the pop psych notion of "you're perfect because you're you!" aren't going to address what may end up being a neurochemical disorder.

Why do so many artists identify as bisexual? I'm willing to bet there's a good chance it's all neurochemical. Mildly depressed people are more creative.

Link Between Creativity and Depression (http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/article_1717.shtml)

I believe that bisexuality is also a consequence of that - and why Katja says she hears is so often from bi and gay people. From this mild depression, major depression is a real possibility and along with that comes the risk of suicide.

All the "It Gets Better" campaigns will do nothing to help cancer, and in the same way may ultimately have no consequence with gay/bi suicides but we're not treating the problem, just the symptoms.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Little Ray, I disagree.

First...when someone who is straight says 'he's gay' he is using the term gay to be an umbrella term that encompasses anything that isn't straight. If you are a guy willing to suck/be sucked you aren't straight. The straight person will use an umbrella term. Don't get hung up on the terminology. It's a sure way to being pissed off a lot for little reason.

Second, you said, "Bisexual teens, who don't deserve to be mistaken as gay, who don't deserve to be taunted as gay, have very little choice in where to turn when their only choices are continue to hide and lie, or tie themselves to the gay community" They aren't being mistaken as gay. They are being correctly identified as 'not straight' (for good or ill). Many, many schools have LGBT groups, btw. In fact, they are growing exponentially each school year.

Third, yes teens are more accepting now than they used to be. For my qualifications to say this, I am a 10 year high school teacher and sponsor of the Gay/Straight alliance at my school. I travel to schools around Houston to do work with other schools in other districts as well in this area. I feel I have a pretty good grasp on this generation of kids and this topic.

From my vantage, our needs aren't different from the rest of LGBT. We need acceptance, tolerance, and to be left alone. That isn't because we're bisexual, but because we are people, and all people should have that. We lose the strength of the greater Rainbow when we leave it.

I suppose what I'm saying is this: I think bi-erasure and bi-invisibility are less of a problem than what is being stated on this website (yes I read the SF report, and it's methodology is far more flawed than Kinsey ever was accused of being). I think this is truly mountain/molehill territory, mixed with paranoia about some phantom leadership of gay white men.

Do we need stronger voices? Yes.
Do we need to get our act together for a bit of unity? Certainly.
Do we need to do a better job of educating others? Hell yes.
Do we need to adopt a policy of isolationism? Not at all.

Pasa

[slipnslide]

Uh....

Because being gay/bi/straight is not something that needs to be cured. None of it is a disease. I'm fairly offended by the thought.

Pasa

If you're offended by the thought that bisexuality and homosexuality can be cured for the love of GAWD do not read any research on how we're now controlling sexuality with chemicals in mice.

Sexual preference chemical found in mice (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-12825688)

They mention serotonin here, which coincidentally is often considered to be involved in human depression.

So while they say "At this time therefore any potential links between serotonin and human sexual preferences must be considered somewhat tenuous." - it's not crazy to think that mammals all have a similar mechanism which evolution may have tweaked slightly by species.

This is a good test for those who consider themselves so open-minded about sexuality - does your open-mindedness hold up when you find out that it might all just be a neurochemical mistake that can be fixed?

[Pasadenacpl2]

We have to be careful with this statistic and assigning causality. There is data and research to suggest that the non-heteronormative sexuality and the depression that results in suicide are symptoms of the same neurochemical force as opposed to the suicide being triggered by the sexuality.

I read on another site where a number of individuals stated that their sexuality varies with their mood. The more depressed they are the more gay they are and vice versa. Also people reported that anti-depressants resulted in diminished same sex attraction.

I guess I'm seeing my thoughts gel here. Rah rah! fanaticism and fluffy poetic language and the pop psych notion of "you're perfect because you're you!" aren't going to address what may end up being a neurochemical disorder.

Why do so many artists identify as bisexual? I'm willing to bet there's a good chance it's all neurochemical. Mildly depressed people are more creative.

Link Between Creativity and Depression (http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/article_1717.shtml)

I believe that bisexuality is also a consequence of that - and why Katja says she hears is so often from bi and gay people. From this mild depression, major depression is a real possibility and along with that comes the risk of suicide.

All the "It Gets Better" campaigns will do nothing to help cancer, and in the same way may ultimately have no consequence with gay/bi suicides but we're not treating the problem, just the symptoms.

You are seriously saying that bisexuality is a disease? REALLY? I am resisting every urge I have to flame you.

Pasa

[hgf33]

There are racial differences amongst the races that effect their self esteem and make it hard to accept themselves or their culture. It is a known fact that there is a "light Skinned" v. "Dark Skinned" Or "Good Hair" v. "Nappy" in the African American communities. Even within African American families where one child may be the darkest or the lightest. There have been articles and guest appearances, by mothers who bleach their skin or their childrens skin to make them appear more acceptable to not only white society but depending on the community they live in. There is also similar in Asian cultures, where eye lid surgery and leg lengthening practices are done to appear more like how white people are perceived. Rarely anyone complains about being white, because white isn't a minority. Its sort of an inadequate comparison to make.

Perhaps you missed the part where I made extra effort to point out that it was simply an example. I made this effort because I figured someone would jump on it, yet here I am, explaining myself again.

I didn't say white was a minority. It was an example. It was a simple fill-in-the-blank-with-whatever-race-here type of hypothetical. I simply said white because I'm white and lord knows if I used any other race I'd offend SOMEONE, somewhere. I also did clearly say that I know there are things about their races that people don't like. They can change those things, but it doesn't change their race. I'm speaking of acceptance. When there's nothing you can do about something, and it's a part of you, you either accept it or live your life being miserable. I choose not to be miserable.

I am also not ACTUALLY, technically half gay. It is just the lighthearted and simple way I CHOOSE to refer to myself. It's more fun to say "hey I'm half gay" rather than, "I'm a kinsey 2-3, but some days I feel like a... blah blah blah..." People would stop listening. Talk about bisexuals being confused, Kinsey scales are confusing to people who have never heard of them! Regardless of how we refer to ourselves, we are bisexuals in some way or another, and we are a little straight and a little gay. I acknowledge the gay part of me, which is in the rainbow, and the straight part of me supports that rainbow, too. I didn't even realize I was bi until I was 19, but I've always supported the LGBT community.

If someone feels their sexuality is some sort of disease that can be cured, I feel sorry for them. I also wonder why they're here trying to push bi acceptance, as they are just as offensive to us as anyone else. Like I said before, you can't expect anyone to accept you if you don't accept yourself.

So what if it's a neurochemical issue. A lot of other things are also chemical imbalances or genetic brain defects, and guess what... while there are plenty of drugs they can shove down our throats, and plenty of shrinks we can talk to that will help, there is no cure for any of them.

By the way, Pasa, I like the way you think. :)

[slipnslide]

You are seriously saying that bisexuality is a disease? REALLY? I am resisting every urge I have to flame you.

Pasa

The difference between our views though is that I have science and research on my side, you have fluffy feel goodery language and an entrenched opinion which would never deviate because you have a point to prove.

[slipnslide]

So what if it's a neurochemical issue. A lot of other things are also chemical imbalances or genetic brain defects, and guess what... while there are plenty of drugs they can shove down our throats, and plenty of shrinks we can talk to that will help, there is no cure for any of them.


So your attitude is that it may very well be a disease but "don't worry, be happy"? Is that simply because of the hedonism that comes along with it?

[Pasadenacpl2]

The difference between our views though is that I have science and research on my side, you have fluffy feel goodery language and an entrenched opinion which would never deviate because you have a point to prove.

Actually, you don't have much science at all to back you up. After taking some time to read through what you posted, you have jumped to some startling conclusions (conclusions even researchers cautioned against).

What we have here is a case of self-loathing. You desperately need something to blame. Something that can fix you. And you have this need to fix the rest of us.

No thanks. We don't need allies like you, quite frankly. Allies who want to fix us aren't allies at all.

Pasa

[slipnslide]

Actually, you don't have much science at all to back you up. After taking some time to read through what you posted, you have jumped to some startling conclusions (conclusions even researchers cautioned against).

What we have here is a case of self-loathing. You desperately need something to blame. Something that can fix you. And you have this need to fix the rest of us.

No thanks. We don't need allies like you, quite frankly. Allies who want to fix us aren't allies at all.

Pasa

Trust me, I can wait this one out. While I'm no Ray Kurzweil, I think I can predict where this is going in 15-20 years.

I don't need anything to blame, I need to understand the underlying mechanisms. As I've made it abundantly clear, the pop psych feel goodery of "I'm okay, you're okay" may be fine for those who don't like to examine, but that's not me.

I have no interest in fixing you. You're too far gone, the Kool-Aid has been consumed. But there's a lot of other people who would like a treatment.

[elian]

Uh....

Because being gay/bi/straight is not something that needs to be cured. None of it is a disease. I'm fairly offended by the thought.

Pasa

Well, it may be an unpleasant thought but I can certainly understand where slipnslide is coming from.

When I was growing up questioning my sexuality nearly brought me to the brink of suicide more than one time. It's probably a fallacy to think that "straight" people have an easy time growing up (as LDD pointed out) but when you struggle so hard just to accept a fundamental thing like who you love vs. someone else who just knows and is accepted by default it sure seems unfair. No wonder why half of us go around acting like we have a chip on our shoulder. I guess maybe not everyone struggles that way, some people may be wired differently.

It certainly hasn't been easy, but I look at my past now as being given the gift of an open mind. Had I not had to struggle so much, I might have just gone with the status quo and not be interested in social justice, love and compassion nearly as much.

When people come to me hurting (and every once in a while they do) I now can genuinely relate to them and honestly say that it DOES get better. I don't care what sex or gender they are, but my whole experience, including my sexuality DOES play a part in how I respond.

-E

[Pasadenacpl2]

I cannot believe we are actually having this conversation.

Might as well elect Michelle Bachman.

Pasa

[slipnslide]

I cannot believe we are actually having this conversation.

Might as well elect Michelle Bachman.

Pasa

I fail to see how "pray away the gay" is equivalent to the real possibility that bisexuality is simply another manifestation of an underlying mechanism that we don't understand but may also cause depression, anxiety and other mood related issues.

[elian]

When people are born LGBT I don't think they are born "wrong", I think the depression, anxiety and mood related issues are more related to society's lack of acceptance of a whole person. I'm not saying that you have a disease because you choose to love someone of the same sex, I am saying that those feelings of rejection have a psychological impact on individuals and the individuals may not know the best way to deal with the situation. That should be acknowledged and ought to be dealt with in a better way than what we currently do.

Children dying when the people they look up to implicitly demonstrate disgust or disdain for LGBT is a serious issue. Children of ANY sexuality dying because of lack of self esteem for that matter. I am tired of hearing about school shootings and shootings in public places and we, collectively should stand up and say "that's enough". Along with that though we must be willing to respectfully listen to people when they feel that they have no where else to turn to. You would be amazed what just letting someone tell their story can do. Capitalistic society should learn that people are not widgets; communism needs to learn that life is individual.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Same idea, just different approach. That it's a disease. That it needs to be "cured." That it can be cured with enough prayer, or medications, or whatever...same idea, and just as loathsome.

BTW, you went from saying that bisexuality caused depression to depression causing bisexuality, and the back again. Make up your mind. Which is it? It makes a huge difference.

Oh, just to clarify. You have twice tried to saddle me with the idea that my opinion is based upon 'whatever feels good' or 'we're all ok.' To an extent, you are right...but only slightly.

It is my belief, and pretty substantially upheld, that human sexual preference is not really a choice. People don't choose to be gay. I certainly didn't choose to be bi. If it isn't a choice, then it's not something that I'm going to lament. I don't lament being short, broadly built, or hairy (some folks like bears, after all). I'm not going to lament being bi.

Do I have a point to prove? Not really, other than that sexuality is not something to be cured. And fuck anyone who tries to "cure" me.

Didn't you ever read the X-Men?

Pasa

[littlerayofsunshine]

We have to be careful with this statistic and assigning causality. There is data and research to suggest that the non-heteronormative sexuality and the depression that results in suicide are symptoms of the same neurochemical force as opposed to the suicide being triggered by the sexuality.

I read on another site where a number of individuals stated that their sexuality varies with their mood. The more depressed they are the more gay they are and vice versa. Also people reported that anti-depressants resulted in diminished same sex attraction.

I guess I'm seeing my thoughts gel here. Rah rah! fanaticism and fluffy poetic language and the pop psych notion of "you're perfect because you're you!" aren't going to address what may end up being a neurochemical disorder.

Why do so many artists identify as bisexual? I'm willing to bet there's a good chance it's all neurochemical. Mildly depressed people are more creative.

Link Between Creativity and Depression (http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/article_1717.shtml)

I believe that bisexuality is also a consequence of that - and why Katja says she hears is so often from bi and gay people. From this mild depression, major depression is a real possibility and along with that comes the risk of suicide.

All the "It Gets Better" campaigns will do nothing to help cancer, and in the same way may ultimately have no consequence with gay/bi suicides but we're not treating the problem, just the symptoms.



Since little study is done to the depths bisexuality is ingrained. In my opinion its from Birth. Statistics can sway in many ways. And the reason why people believe such in their reports will also be based on their own agenda.

However, suicide is documented by a Coroner and not a scientist per se and since sexuality is less often divulged in teens the number could possibly be speculated that it is higher than what is actually known of teen suicide.

There could be many hypothesis why bisexual people turn to same sex interests during a depressive episode. And not all depression needs medicine to cure. and curing depression doesn't make someone UN-BIsexual.

I don't turn more into fems because I'm depressed, thats not how I work, When I am depressed, I isolate myself from everyone and everyone from me. I know this about myself, and deal with in an a healthier way than when I did when I was a teen. But as a teen I didn't have skill nor know how to be able to do such. And many teens are in those same shoes till this day.

One hypothesis for men becoming "more gay" during depression is men are naturally wired to associate sex with love, and not need love for sex. And its less work, tiresome and less depressing to just fuck and feel good, than it is to work through the issues at hand. Depression lowers testosterone. But it doesn't cause being bisexual. You either want to suck a cock or you don't. You either want to eat that pussy or you don't as in applies to women.

It was recently released as men age their need for intimacy becomes more prevalent as their testosterone drops and that they enjoy all the things their wives and girlfriends bitched they didn't give way back when, when it was important to the females. And by that time, due to lack of affection and intimacy women near the same age range will be less inclined to be affectionate and are more satisfied just "having you here".

When depression hits, openness and intimacy is usually needed to help ease the symptoms and may "Fix it" if its not completely a neurochemical deficiency. That's why Therapy is a helpful tool. It allows you to be intimate in thought, while someone listens and is solely there for "Your" benefit and well being.

Ya know that feeling "Its like a weights been lifted of my shoulders/chest" I can breath again.

That kind of thing occurs when you are intimate. Sex and endorphins are temporary. But intimacy is long lasting and always leaves a mark.

Depression hits straight and gay people its hits ALL people. Its not an isolated human phenomena. But someone who is Isolated and has no outlets will become depressed. Those who try and reach out and are rejected, will sink lower. And those who can't find a way, will kill themselves.

When it comes to creativeness, its actually being expressive. Its relaying a thought or image or words into a format for people to see, feel, decipher, relate to. Its intimacy. Its reaching out. If its a sea scape, Its See this, This is where I like to be, this is where my thoughts lie. If is expressionist. Its showing how their emotions make them see things and this is how they translate it through art. If its song, they are saying This is my words, my thoughts, my feelings, I'm making you hear how I feel. It is an outlet that causes no harm. Serves its purpose. and In some effect, can be the only outlet one has and may be the only outlet that keeps them grounded to this earth. And while more bisexuals may be creative. It's simply for some... being the only way they can reach out and relate to more people and be understood than the circles they grew up in. In one person saying "I like that piece, I like that song" the artist hears. I like you and accept you. And the artist can feel a connection outside of themselves.

Slightly different neuropathy doesn't make you a "deviant" from a genetic pool. There are levels of Norms. Now if you are killing people and then fucking them or stalking and raping..... Yeah then there's something wrong with ya. Then I would begin to worry.

[tenni]

re: post 61

"...yes I read the SF report, and it's methodology is far more flawed than Kinsey ever was accused of being..."

Pasa
I'm curious as to what concerns that you see in the SF Human Rights Commission Report methodology?

In particular concerns with the statements about the systemic flaws in the GLBT organization (city institutions etc.) and recommendations made in the report.

The Need for Systemic Consideration
Day in and day out, LGBT organizations achieve an extraordinary amount for their constituents,
usually with very limited resources. However, bisexuals are notably underrepresented among those
served by these organizations, and few programs exist that focus on the specific concerns of
bisexuals.
This survey points toward the need for a systematic consideration of bisexual issues within LGBT
organizations, from designing new initiatives to recruiting board members. The long-term goal is to
implement institutional changes that take bisexuals’ needs into account at every level of the
organization.


"San Francisco Human Rights Commission
34 Bisexual Invisibility: Impacts and Recommendations
Recommendations
One of the challenges―and frustrations―for bisexuals and their allies is that so much invisibility
persists despite decades of educational efforts. One long-time activist described it as “sweeping
sand.” While many people and organizations have certainly become more welcoming and inclusive
of bisexuals over the years, others remain inconsistent, oblivious, or occasionally hostile.
The question becomes how to create institutional changes that remain even if a bi-supportive leader,
staff person, or volunteer moves on.

The LGBT Advisory Committee has several recommendations for creating more visibility for
bisexuals and bisexual issues in the City and County of San Francisco:

 Educate the public, city departments, and elected officials about inclusive language (for
example, “anti-LGBT bias” rather than “homophobia”) and ensure its use whenever
possible and accurate.
 Review the STI brochures offered through San Francisco’s Department of Public Health
and, if needed, encourage them to adopt models created by Fenway BiHealth in Boston (one
that addresses those who identify as bisexual and one for those who don’t).
 Work with the Department of Public Health to ensure that data collection addresses the
experiences of bisexuals accurately and consistently.
 Share this report and the results of the survey of local nonprofits on what bi-specific
programming they have, if any; whether their programs that say they serve bisexuals are
welcoming in practice; and how the content of their programming changes to address the
needs of bisexuals.
 Include specific, separate information on bisexuality in diversity trainings.
 Ensure that bisexuals are included among the speakers when there are panels, forums, and
other official discussions affecting the LGBT community.

Many assumptions lie at the core of bisexual invisibility: assumptions about a person’s sexual
orientation based on her/his partner’s gender; about bisexuals people’s reliability, honesty, or
commitment to the LGBT movement; about bisexuals’ health concerns and needs; and about the
world as an “either/or” place rather than one of infinite variety. Any long-term solutions must
dispel these assumptions to make room for those whose lives exist beyond binaries."

[slipnslide]

BTW, you went from saying that bisexuality caused depression to depression causing bisexuality, and the back again. Make up your mind. Which is it? It makes a huge difference.


Neither - I'm saying both are symptoms of the same dysfunction.

[hgf33]

So your attitude is that it may very well be a disease but "don't worry, be happy"? Is that simply because of the hedonism that comes along with it?

That's not what I said at all, and I am definitely not saying it may be a disease. What I'm saying is, even if it were a neurochemical issue, it wouldn't be curable just like anxiety, depression, ADHD, autism, sociopathy, and any of those other neurochemical things aren't curable.

I am with Pasa on all this, whole-heartedly. I accept my sexuality and I'm proud of who I am with it, and I am proud of all my brothers and sisters on here who feel the same way about themselves.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Neither - I'm saying both are symptoms of the same dysfunction.

Then how do you account for the inordinate amount of straight people who are depressed but never seem to be anything but straight? Doesn't seem logical to me, at all.

Or how about the number of gay people who are just fine, or bisexuals for that matter? And what about the trend we are seeing where people are self identifying as "depressed" with no actual clinical reason to do so other than not being happy with their current circumstances (that's not depressed...it's sad...much different)?

There is virtually nothing to support your assertions.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

Tenni,

The methodology in gaining the data was flawed (first, but not limited to), using SF as your base of operations, where the % of gays is significantly higher than anyplace else in the nation as a way to assess the state of gays/bis across the nation). If the methodology was flawed in gaining the data, any and all suppositions based upon the data is also flawed.

If I had designed this study in grad school, my Stats professor would have sent me back to the drawing board.

Pasa

[Katja]

Link Between Creativity and Depression (http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/article_1717.shtml)

I believe that bisexuality is also a consequence of that - and why Katja says she hears is so often from bi and gay people. From this mild depression, major depression is a real possibility and along with that comes the risk of suicide.

All the "It Gets Better" campaigns will do nothing to help cancer, and in the same way may ultimately have no consequence with gay/bi suicides but we're not treating the problem, just the symptoms.

Excuse me, darling, do not misrepresent what I say. I did not say so often, I believe I used the word 'several'. Out of the considerable numbers of gay, lesbian and bisexual people I know or have known, this represents a small percentage. Too great a percentage but small nonetheless.

You may in your self pity and regret wish whatever you like and take whatever action you wish to end something you were probably born with. That is your choice. But you will not use my words and exaggerate anything I said to achieve that end and in an attempt to justify your actions.

I believe you have the right to do whatever you wish with your own body and your own person. That I think it is an act of treachery please be left in no doubt of that. Not so much treachery to your bisexual peers, although it is certainly that, but a betrayal of yourself and your entire being. You betray both your peers and yourself by playing into the hands of those who would have us declared criminals and perverts.

What is worse is not that you are saying that bisexuality is a disease, what you are saying is, as many on the right say, that bisexuals themselves are the disease. That I cannot accept or countenance.

Earlier in this thread you posed a question. What is the point and benefit to the species of non heterosexuality? You framed the question in an unnecessarily flowery and pseudo intellectual way, but that is the question you pose. To which I answer, what is the point to the species of left handed over right, right brain dominant over left, the different shades of the same eye colour, hair colour, blood groups, and tall against short, freckles, moles, over bites against underbites and many other things within each of us which appear superfluous? What are their use to the species?

Some things we can explain, some not, and some we theorise about. Why bisexuality and homosexuality exist is something we do not understand. They do. That we know and they are perfectly natural. It is unimportant whether or not they are of use to humanity. Yet they are. They are of huge benefit to humanity, at least large numbers of human beings. They bring pleasure, they bring love, and they bring companionship to those millions. I think that is a massive benefit.

[tenni]

Thanks Pasa
I will have to look at the report again more carefully. I found that the report based a great deal of what it reported based upon other studies and an on line survey of Bay area organizations that it connected to make its summary results. I didn't think that they were necessarily extrapolating to make a universal comment. I guess that I am guilty of that. In the respect that if SF has this problem where there is a large percentage of the population as being GLBT then this should be of concern. Maybe, other GLBT organizations are doing better than the SF organizations.

Do you find the 20% response sample size from organizations to be too small?

"LGBTAC Organizational Survey
To get a sense of how well bisexuals are served by LGBT organizations and programs in the Bay Area, the LGBT Advisory Committee undertook an online survey of LGBT nonprofits, primarily in San Francisco. Approximately 150 organizations were contacted about participating in the survey, of which 30 responded (20% response rate).76 The goal was to gain a better understanding of how organizations collect data about the bisexuals who come to them, where gaps in services exist, and how many bisexuals serve in leadership roles as board and staff members, as well as to help inform how San Francisco makes its funding decisions to ensure that the needs of the entire LGBT community are being addressed

[Long Duck Dong]

Then how do you account for the inordinate amount of straight people who are depressed but never seem to be anything but straight? Doesn't seem logical to me, at all.

Or how about the number of gay people who are just fine, or bisexuals for that matter? And what about the trend we are seeing where people are self identifying as "depressed" with no actual clinical reason to do so other than not being happy with their current circumstances (that's not depressed...it's sad...much different)?

There is virtually nothing to support your assertions.

Pasa

the stats surrounding the LGBT and the depression rates are flawed.... yes they have higher rates of depression but the findings are flawed.....

its a bit like saying that women suffer higher rates of depression than men and you factor in pre and post natal depression into the findings..... something that is gender specific depression.... remove the pre and post natal depression and the findings change....

the reason for a trans persons depression is often different to that of a les / gay and bi... as the triggers for the depression are different but the chemical and hormonal triggers are generally the same,
the findings for depression in the LGBT, cover the LGBT, break them down to depression types and sexuality groups and you find there is a clear difference in the numbers.... and based around what I know of one study, most of the LGBT people were defining their sexuality and / or coming out.... a aspect of life that can screw up most people...... those that were bi curious or out, showed less signs of depressive symptoms.....

its as you say, is the person actually depressed cos they are sad, or diagnosed with forms of depression and what type of depression ? and just what is going on in their lives at the time

a bi female with pre natal depression is totally different to a person like me with dysthimia and both are different to a gay person with clinical depression.... yet studies do not define the differences in the depression, they treat all depression as a singular type......

it begs the question " what came first, the sexuality or the depression " ??

[BiDaveDtown]

First...when someone who is straight says 'he's gay' he is using the term gay to be an umbrella term that encompasses anything that isn't straight. If you are a guy willing to suck/be sucked you aren't straight. The straight person will use an umbrella term. Don't get hung up on the terminology. It's a sure way to being pissed off a lot for little reason.

When a hetero person says "Oh he/she is gay!" it does not mean that they think that someone is bisexual and "gay" is not used as an umbrella term by heterosexuals to mean anything that's not heterosexual. To heteros "gay" means homosexual or in some cases lesbian if they're talking about a lesbian woman. The term "gay" does not mean that someone is bisexual.

Many heterosexuals see human sexuality as being only one of two things heterosexual or you're gay/lesbian even if you are bisexual and are attracted to the same and opposite gender, and all this shows is that they're biphobic and are using the wrong term for describing a bisexual person's sexuality and are practicing bisexual erasure.

So when they say "Oh he/she is gay!" that means they think that the person is gay or lesbian. They don't mean that the person is bisexual, if they did think the person is bisexual they would just say "He/she is bi/bisexual" and not "He/she is gay".

Secondly, many heterosexuals use "He/she is gay" as an insult or if they're homophobic/biphobic to mean that they're less of a person because they're not heterosexual.

You seem to be confusing the term "gay" with the now dated term "queer" since "queer" has been used as an umbrella term for GLB people, and now T people, for decades while "gay" has not.

Not all GLBT people like the term queer and many of us do not use it or like it when it is used. I'm fine with it but I know that not everyone is.

[slipnslide]

Excuse me, darling, do not misrepresent what I say. I did not say so often, I believe I used the word 'several'. Out of the considerable numbers of gay, lesbian and bisexual people I know or have known, this represents a small percentage. Too great a percentage but small nonetheless.


"It is something I have heard from several people, including a gay man"

Your words. Not mine.

[slipnslide]

Earlier in this thread you posed a question. What is the point and benefit to the species of non heterosexuality? You framed the question in an unnecessarily flowery and pseudo intellectual way, but that is the question you pose. To which I answer, what is the point to the species of left handed over right, right brain dominant over left, the different shades of the same eye colour, hair colour, blood groups, and tall against short, freckles, moles, over bites against underbites and many other things within each of us which appear superfluous? What are their use to the species?


Those are simply genetic variations that don't affect the ability of an organism to procreate.

[Pasadenacpl2]

When a hetero person says "Oh he/she is gay!" it does not mean that they think that someone is bisexual and "gay" is not used as an umbrella term by heterosexuals to mean anything that's not heterosexual. To heteros "gay" means homosexual or in some cases lesbian if they're talking about a lesbian woman. The term "gay" does not mean that someone is bisexual.

Many heterosexuals see human sexuality as being only one of two things heterosexual or you're gay/lesbian even if you are bisexual and are attracted to the same and opposite gender, and all this shows is that they're biphobic and are using the wrong term for describing a bisexual person's sexuality and are practicing bisexual erasure.

So when they say "Oh he/she is gay!" that means they think that the person is gay or lesbian. They don't mean that the person is bisexual, if they did think the person is bisexual they would just say "He/she is bi/bisexual" and not "He/she is gay".

Secondly, many heterosexuals use "He/she is gay" as an insult or if they're homophobic/biphobic to mean that they're less of a person because they're not heterosexual.

You seem to be confusing the term "gay" with the now dated term "queer" since "queer" has been used as an umbrella term for GLB people, and now T people, for decades while "gay" has not.

Not all GLBT people like the term queer and many of us do not use it or like it when it is used. I'm fine with it but I know that not everyone is.

Whether used as a pejorative, or as a simple identifier, the term gay is used most often in the hetero world to mean: anything that isn't straight. That they make little differentiation between gay and bi is not surprising. If a guy sucks cock, he's not straight. The level or severity of his being gay is not of concern to straights.

The straight world, and most especially the very conservative world doesn't make such distinctions. The reason for not making the distinction is quite simple: They don't care. If you aren't straight, you're gay (or queer, or a fag etc...).

It isn't because they don't believe bisexuals exist. They don't care.

What does it matter if someone picks on a kid for being gay rather than being bi? Do you delude yourself into thinking that because he likes girls too that it will matter? Really? Do you think that the kid being picked on gives a damn that they are shouting at him for being gay rather than picking on him for being bi? "I really hate it when they call me a fag....I'm not a fag...I'm bi!" Really? The only thing that matters to that kid is that they are being picked on.

It isn't "practicing bisexual erasure." Bisexual erasure depends on a concerted effort to pretend bisexuals don't exist. That isn't what's going on in any of the scenarios you presented. Ask a straight if bisexuality exists...they'll tell you it probably does...but they dont' care. If it's not straight, it's to be feared.

Who cares if they fear us for being gay, or for being bisexual? What flippin' difference does it make? Truly?

Pasa

[BiDaveDtown]

Whether used as a pejorative, or as a simple identifier, the term gay is used most often in the hetero world to mean: anything that isn't straight. That they make little differentiation between gay and bi is not surprising. If a guy sucks cock, he's not straight. The level or severity of his being gay is not of concern to straights.

The straight world, and most especially the very conservative world doesn't make such distinctions. The reason for not making the distinction is quite simple: They don't care. If you aren't straight, you're gay (or queer, or a fag etc...).

It isn't because they don't believe bisexuals exist. They don't care.

What does it matter if someone picks on a kid for being gay rather than being bi? Do you delude yourself into thinking that because he likes girls too that it will matter? Really? Do you think that the kid being picked on gives a damn that they are shouting at him for being gay rather than picking on him for being bi? "I really hate it when they call me a fag....I'm not a fag...I'm bi!" Really? The only thing that matters to that kid is that they are being picked on.

It isn't "practicing bisexual erasure." Bisexual erasure depends on a concerted effort to pretend bisexuals don't exist. That isn't what's going on in any of the scenarios you presented. Ask a straight if bisexuality exists...they'll tell you it probably does...but they dont' care. If it's not straight, it's to be feared.

Who cares if they fear us for being gay, or for being bisexual? What flippin' difference does it make? Truly?

Pasa

Damn you have A LOT of heterophobia. Did people bully you and call you a faggot sometime in your life?

Most straight people are not the way you described and I've been friends and have worked with Heterosexuals who are Conservative politically and they accept me as being bisexual. IME most heterosexuals do understand bisexuality and know that we bisexuals exist even if they themselves are not bisexual.

Not all heterosexuals are part of Rev. Fred Phelp's Westboro Baptist church even if you want to believe that most heterosexuals fear bisexuals and everyone who isn't heterosexual. :rolleyes:

What I wrote is correct. There are heterosexuals out there who do understand bisexuality and who don't practice bisexual erasure the way you described with your "To heteros 'gay' is used as an umbrella term for everything not straight including bisexuals!" flawed argument.

You're confusing the umbrella term for everyone that's GLBT or the term "queer" that gets used nowadays for the term "gay" when "gay" means that a man or woman is homosexual/gay if they're a man or a lesbian if they're a woman and nothing more.

[slipnslide]

Damn you have A LOT of heterophobia. Did people bully you and call you a faggot sometime in your life?


Good call.

[hgf33]

What Pasa has explained is not heterophobia at all, and you shouldnt further insult him by assuming he was bullied in the past! A lot of straight people DO use the term gay for anything not straight. In fact, it's not just straight people that do this, most of the population does!! And really, they aren't ENTIRELY wrong. It doesn't mean people aren't accepting of bisexuals. They call it like they see it, and in most instances, probably have no way of knowing someone is bi rather than straight or gay. If you're in a heterosexual relationship, you appear straight. If you are in a same-sex relationship, you appear gay. The term gay means same-sex, which we, as bisexuals, are a part of, am I wrong? It's not that people are unaccepting of bisexuals, or ignorant to our existence. It's just a simple term referring to the whole LGBT community. No need to get upset over petty things. Just (politely) correct people if they refer to you as gay or straight. No harm in that. Better than starting a huge fight over a mistaken assumption. Not ALL people are ignorant. Some are just misunderstood.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Damn you have A LOT of heterophobia. Did people bully you and call you a faggot sometime in your life?

Most straight people are not the way you described and I've been friends and have worked with Heterosexuals who are Conservative politically and they accept me as being bisexual. IME most heterosexuals do understand bisexuality and know that we bisexuals exist even if they themselves are not bisexual.

Not all heterosexuals are part of Rev. Fred Phelp's Westboro Baptist church even if you want to believe that most heterosexuals fear bisexuals and everyone who isn't heterosexual. :rolleyes:

What I wrote is correct. There are heterosexuals out there who do understand bisexuality and who don't practice bisexual erasure the way you described with your "To heteros 'gay' is used as an umbrella term for everything not straight including bisexuals!" flawed argument.

You're confusing the umbrella term for everyone that's GLBT or the term "queer" that gets used nowadays for the term "gay" when "gay" means that a man or woman is homosexual/gay if they're a man or a lesbian if they're a woman and nothing more.

Quite the opposite. I'm not phobic at all. I was addressing your very specific scenarios and refuting them from a position of experience having counseled gay and bi teens for the past few years as the sponsor of a gay/straight alliance. The kids don't care that the people picking on them didn't use the proper term. They just want the homophobia to stop.

Believe what you want. I didn't realize I was bi until my late thirties. Until then, I thought I was straight. So, I don't have the "I have straight friends" issue you do. I was straight. My sexuality, being fluid, changed. I was straight, and continue to live as a straight due to job and familial concerns.

To most straights who aren't educated (and there are a growing number who are) gay/queer/bi/dyke/fag are all pretty interchangeable. Not necessarily because they hate us, or are phobic. But because they don't care enough to make the distinction. Straight is the default setting, and if you aren't straight, any of those terms will do.

I'm glad you've had positive experiences. I have too. But, I also know the comments that are made when people think no queers are around. Since I blend, it happens all the time. People aren't hateful, by and large. Just insensitive.


Side note: I head my school's Gay/Straight Alliance. It is a national organization. You might note that the terms are gay and straight. And yet, the organization spends most of it's time with bi kids. You might ask, why that is. It is because the term gay, for that organization, is an umbrella term. Just sayin...

Pasa

[BiDaveDtown]

HGF-yeah it is heterophobia on Pasadenacpl2's part.

He's assuming that mostly all heterosexuals somehow fear gay people, bisexuals, or anyone that's not hetero and that Heteros are akin to the members of the Westboro Baptist church when it's not that way.

I've been out for decades and a lot longer than Pasadenacpl or yourself have and I know heterophobia and biphobia when I see them.

I've never seen anyone that's heterosexual or GLBT use "gay" to mean everyone that's GLBT or the entire GLBT "community", like they do with the term "queer".

Someone being ignorant and assuming someone is heterosexual when with an opposite gender partner or gay/lesbian when with a same gender partner is biphobia and bisexual erasure on the part of heterosexuals and people who are gay/lesbian.

http://www.lanikaahumanu.com/looklike.shtml

WHAT DOES BIPHOBIA LOOK LIKE?

* Assuming that everyone you meet is either heterosexual or homosexual.
* Supporting and understanding a bisexual identity for young people because you identified “that way” before you came to your “real” lesbian/gay/heterosexual identity.
* Expecting a bisexual to identify as heterosexual when coupled with the so called different gender/sex.
* Believing bisexual men spread AIDS/HIV to heterosexuals.
* Thinking bisexual people haven’t made up their minds.
* Assuming a bisexual person would want to fulfill your sexual fantasies or curiosities.
* Assuming bisexuals would be willing to “pass” as anything other than bisexual.
* Feeling that bisexual people are too outspoken and pushy about their visibility and rights.
* Automatically assuming romantic couplings of two women are lesbian, or two men are gay, or a man and a woman are heterosexual.
* Expecting bisexual people to get services, information, and education from heterosexual service agencies for their “heterosexual side” (sic) and then go to gay and/or lesbian service agencies for their “homosexual side” (sic).
* Feeling bisexuals just want to have their cake and eat it too.
* Believing that bisexual women spread AIDS/HIV to lesbians.
* Using the terms “phase” or “stage” or “confused” or “fence-sitter” or “bisexual” or “AC/DC” or “switch-hitter” as slurs or in an accusatory way.
* Thinking bisexuals only have committed relationships with so called different sex/gender partners.
* Looking at a bisexual person and automatically thinking of their sexuality rather than seeing them as a whole, complete person.
* Assuming that bisexuals, if given the choice, would prefer to be in an different gender/sex coupling to reap the social benefits of a so-called "heterosexual" pairing [sic].
* Not confronting a biphobic remark or joke for fear of being identified as bisexual.
* Assuming bisexual means “available.”
* Thinking that bisexual people will have their rights when lesbian and gay people win theirs.
* Being gay or lesbian and asking your bisexual friend about their lover or whom they are dating only when that person is the “same” sex/gender.
* Believing bisexuals are confused about their sexuality.
* Feeling that you can’t trust a bisexual because they aren’t really gay or lesbian, or aren’t really heterosexual.
* Expecting a bisexual to identify as gay or lesbian when coupled with the “same” sex/gender.
* Expecting bisexual activists and organizers to minimize bisexual issues (i.e. HIV/AIDS, violence, basic civil rights, fighting the Right, military, same-sex marriage, child custody, adoption, etc.) and to prioritize the visibility of so called “lesbian and/or gay” issues.
* Avoid mentioning to friends that you are involved with a bisexual or working with a bisexual group because you are afraid they will think you are a bisexual.

Adapted by Lani Ka‘ahumanu and Rob Yaeger/BiNet USA, 1996, from Rape Crisis Center of West Contra Costa County, CA, and from Lesbians: A Consciousness Raising Kit, by the Boston Lesbian Task Force, and by Building Bridges, March, 1995.

[DuckiesDarling]

I've been reading this thread and it's taken a lot of twists and turns from the original post.

As a straight person I must agree that there are a lot of HOMOPHOBIC, not BIPHOBIC straight people out there. A lot of it is how they were raised, where they grow up (urban vs rural) and their own ability to process knowledge as it comes to them.

Similiarly, there are a lot of straight people just like Pasa said, who really don't care if a person is bisexual they do get lumped in to a category in the brain that simply says "Not my kind".

But the good news is that a lot of the younger generations of heterosexuals do know about the differences in sexualities. They are being taught it's normal and in fact it does happen in nature so it's NATURAL. There are a lot of straights who have learned that it's who the person is not who they sleep with that matters.

[Pasadenacpl2]

HGF-yeah it is heterophobia on Pasadenacpl2's part.

He's assuming that mostly all heterosexuals somehow fear gay people, bisexuals, or anyone that's not hetero and that Heteros are akin to the members of the Westboro Baptist church when it's not that way.

I don't believe I said this. I don't believe I said anything of the sort.

I said Gay is used as an umbrella term.

I said that YOUR very specific scenarios didn't depend on whether the kid was gay or bi.

Go ahead and find for me where I said anything that you said I said. I await your quotations and response.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

Oh..and your "what does biphobia" list is cute. It's not describing a phobia, but it's cute.

Pasa

[Long Duck Dong]

Adapted by Lani Ka‘ahumanu and Rob Yaeger/BiNet USA, 1996, from Rape Crisis Center of West Contra Costa County, CA, and from Lesbians: A Consciousness Raising Kit, by the Boston Lesbian Task Force, and by Building Bridges, March, 1995.

sorry, that is hilarious.... a rape crisis center and lesbian task force.....??.... and where is the bisexual group ???? oh they are the ones that adapted it from other groups....

you are enforcing the idea that bisexuals can not stand out on their own and make up their own intelligent minds about biphobia, they have to borrow somebody elses work and adapt it to fit bisexuals....

[DuckiesDarling]

I have a large problem with that list....ummm what is a biphobia list done by a lesbian task force going to do anything for bis? Just asking...... that would be like a hetero posting the list and going OMG Look......

[Pasadenacpl2]

Some of those things have nothing to do with phobia, and everything to do with some people just not understanding.

My particular favorite is "Assuming that bisexuals will have their rights when gays/lesbians do." So, if two guys can get married, or two women, or a man and a woman....then how do we not have our rights?

Just applying simple logic tests to most of it shows that it is the work of an idiot.

Pasa

[BiDaveDtown]

Quite the opposite. I'm not phobic at all. I was addressing your very specific scenarios and refuting them from a position of experience having counseled gay and bi teens for the past few years as the sponsor of a gay/straight alliance. The kids don't care that the people picking on them didn't use the proper term. They just want the homophobia to stop.

Believe what you want. I didn't realize I was bi until my late thirties. Until then, I thought I was straight. So, I don't have the "I have straight friends" issue you do. I was straight. My sexuality, being fluid, changed. I was straight, and continue to live as a straight due to job and familial concerns.

To most straights who aren't educated (and there are a growing number who are) gay/queer/bi/dyke/fag are all pretty interchangeable. Not necessarily because they hate us, or are phobic. But because they don't care enough to make the distinction. Straight is the default setting, and if you aren't straight, any of those terms will do.

I'm glad you've had positive experiences. I have too. But, I also know the comments that are made when people think no queers are around. Since I blend, it happens all the time. People aren't hateful, by and large. Just insensitive.


Side note: I head my school's Gay/Straight Alliance. It is a national organization. You might note that the terms are gay and straight. And yet, the organization spends most of it's time with bi kids. You might ask, why that is. It is because the term gay, for that organization, is an umbrella term. Just sayin...

Pasa

A GSA or Gay/Straight Alliance is a youth group for GLBT students and hetero allies. So no the terms are not only gay or straight.

Taken from their national website:
What is a Gay-Straight Alliance?

A Gay-Straight Alliance (GSA) is a student-initiated and student-run club in a public or private school. The goal of a GSA is to provide a safe, supportive environment for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, questioning (LGBTQ) and straight ally youth to meet and discuss sexual orientation and gender identity issues, and to work to create a school environment free of discrimination, harassment, and intolerance.

That's nice that you stayed closeted and in denial for decades, and that you can blend in and "pass" as heterosexual since this does explain some of your issues.

Are you out at work? Or are you out to any of the students in the GLBT youth alliance?

Not all of the terms you wrote about are interchangeable. I'm a man so nobody is going to think that I'm a dyke or someone trans at all.

Why not call out the ignorant bigots when they let their true ignorant and bigoted sides show when they think nobody will get offended at what they say about us GLBT people?

I've done this before and it's the same thing when you're around a closeted racist pig and they let what they think is a funny racist "joke" slip out.

[BiDaveDtown]

sorry, that is hilarious.... a rape crisis center and lesbian task force.....??.... and where is the bisexual group ???? oh they are the ones that adapted it from other groups....

you are enforcing the idea that bisexuals can not stand out on their own and make up their own intelligent minds about biphobia, they have to borrow somebody elses work and adapt it to fit bisexuals....


Just applying simple logic tests to most of it shows that it is the work of an idiot.

Do you or anyone else who is claiming that the "What does biphobia look like?" list I posted even know who Lani Ka‘ahumanu is?

She wrote the list and is a bisexual woman.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Are you capable of reading? I'm just curious, because you keep screwing up what I said.

First, you will note that the GSA isn't called the LGBT/S Alliance. It's not called the Queer/Straight Alliance. Because the term gay is used, in it's very title, as an umbrella term. And considering that I just came from our state conference, I think I'm very familiar with what we are.

Further, I said I was straight. And I was. . I wasn't closeted. I wasn't bi. I was straight. For decades (35+ years).

That changed. Sexuality is fluid, and mine shifted. I'm bi, now.

I have been aware of my sexuality for just under 3 years. I am out to my friends. I am out to my wife. I am out to my direct supervisor. I am out to a very select group of students. I am not out to my parents, nor am I out to the general population.

I suppose you are going to throw around the 'closeted' argument, and attempt to nullify my stances because I am not fully out and waving the fucking flag.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

Yes. I know who she is. Not a fan.

She is in favor of racial and sexual seperatism and isolationism while espousing that tolerance and acceptance be our goal. Those are mutually exclusive goals.

Pasa

[Long Duck Dong]

I know who she is...... it doesn't make the list any more credible....

* Assuming that everyone you meet is either heterosexual or homosexual. ( we assume things all the time about many things

* Supporting and understanding a bisexual identity for young people because you identified “that way” before you came to your “real” lesbian/gay/heterosexual identity. ( sexuality is fuild, it changes, thats not biphobia, thats learning about yourself

* Expecting a bisexual to identify as heterosexual when coupled with the so called different gender/sex.
* Believing bisexual men spread AIDS/HIV to heterosexuals.
* Thinking bisexual people haven’t made up their minds.
* Assuming a bisexual person would want to fulfill your sexual fantasies or curiosities.
* Assuming bisexuals would be willing to “pass” as anything other than bisexual. ( its cos some do.... thats not bi phobia, thats a bloody fact )

* Feeling that bisexual people are too outspoken and pushy about their visibility and rights. ( looking at the site, mmm YES some are )

* Automatically assuming romantic couplings of two women are lesbian, or two men are gay, or a man and a woman are heterosexual. ( most people do....)

* Feeling bisexuals just want to have their cake and eat it too. ( and a number have posted its what they want )

* Believing that bisexual women spread AIDS/HIV to lesbians. ( bisexuals never spread any disease do they ???? )

* Using the terms “phase” or “stage” or “confused” or “fence-sitter” or “bisexual” or “AC/DC” or “switch-hitter” as slurs or in an accusatory way. ( bi and beyond 3 : switch hitters was a pron video..... )

* Thinking bisexuals only have committed relationships with so called different sex/gender partners. ( and many of the post about wanting that in this site )

* Looking at a bisexual person and automatically thinking of their sexuality rather than seeing them as a whole, complete person. ( and threads about only wanting cock and pussy, nothing else, in this site are what actually ??? )

* Assuming that bisexuals, if given the choice, would prefer to be in an different gender/sex coupling to reap the social benefits of a so-called "heterosexual" pairing [sic]. ( its cos some do )

* Not confronting a biphobic remark or joke for fear of being identified as bisexual. ( yeah, get offended by everything, that will fix it )

* Assuming bisexual means “available.” ( many bisexuals in this site advert that they are available, should we think they are mistaken about that now )

* Thinking that bisexual people will have their rights when lesbian and gay people win theirs ( thats something that the bisexual community does.... yet the bisexual community has more rights than the gay / les communities )

* Being gay or lesbian and asking your bisexual friend about their lover or whom they are dating only when that person is the “same” sex/gender. ( respecting another persons privacy is wrong???????

* Believing bisexuals are confused about their sexuality. ( bi curious and sexuality fuild bisexuals are confused, its why they ask for help )

* Feeling that you can’t trust a bisexual because they aren’t really gay or lesbian, or aren’t really heterosexual. ( some of them can not be trusted cos they cheat.....its not biphobia... its infidelity )

* Expecting a bisexual to identify as gay or lesbian when coupled with the “same” sex/gender. ( personal choice of label, but remember the threads in this site when bisexuals were labelling other people and expecting them to use the bisexual label )

* Expecting bisexual activists and organizers to minimize bisexual issues (i.e. HIV/AIDS, violence, basic civil rights, fighting the Right, military, same-sex marriage, child custody, adoption, etc.) and to prioritize the visibility of so called “lesbian and/or gay” issues. ( cos not all issues are bisexual issues or can be made out to be bisexual issues )

* Avoid mentioning to friends that you are involved with a bisexual or working with a bisexual group because you are afraid they will think you are a bisexual. ( cos of the way that people assume and refuse to listen or understand )

[BiDaveDtown]

Are you capable of reading? I'm just curious, because you keep screwing up what I said.

First, you will note that the GSA isn't called the LGBT/S Alliance. It's not called the Queer/Straight Alliance. Because the term gay is used, in it's very title, as an umbrella term. And considering that I just came from our state conference, I think I'm very familiar with what we are.

Further, I said I was straight. And I was. . I wasn't closeted. I wasn't bi. I was straight. For decades (35+ years).

That changed. Sexuality is fluid, and mine shifted. I'm bi, now.

I have been aware of my sexuality for just under 3 years. I am out to my friends. I am out to my wife. I am out to my direct supervisor. I am out to a very select group of students. I am not out to my parents, nor am I out to the general population.

I suppose you are going to throw around the 'closeted' argument, and attempt to nullify my stances because I am not fully out and waving the fucking flag.

Yes. I know who she is. Not a fan.

She is in favor of racial and sexual seperatism and isolationism while espousing that tolerance and acceptance be our goal. Those are mutually exclusive goals.

Pasa

Sorry buddy. You never were heterosexual or straight even if you wanted to pretend that you were by living in denial and in the closet, or by having sex with only women. Since you're bisexual you never were straight/hetero even if you are apparently very low on the Kinsey scale. ;)

Yes I would say that you're very closeted if you run a student group about GLBT issues for GLBT students and hetero allies yet you can't come out as bisexual. You can't even come out to your parents or other people at your job. :rolleyes: This makes you a coward and a hypocrite and someone who should not be running a GLBT student group.

You will not lose your job or your kids if you come out, and if you're really for GLBT rights you shouldn't be allowing your kids to be in the BSA which is a very homophobic organization. Your kids and their "welfare" are not going to suffer if you come out. :rolleyes:

Lani is not for racial or sexual separatism. She's bi-racial and bisexual.

She worked with Harvey Milk and is all for bisexual people coming out of the closet and bisexual visibility so that nullifies your claims that she's for sexual isolationism and sexual separatism.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Wow....really?

So...you just did what you accuse Gays of...making assumptions. You just said that I was never straight. Really? So you deny that sexuality is fluid? Really? I was just in denial? Really? And what, pray tell, do you base that on? Do you know me? Have you met me? Do you know my story? Do you know a damn thing about me?

Wasn't part of that "Biphobia" list all about making assumptions? So, because I tell my story and it doesn't fit in your little assumption box, you get to pat me on the head and tell me I was never straight? Really? You are either a moron, or you are a hypocrite. I'll let you choose, as I wouldn't want to make an assumption.

For your edification, I can't come out completely for three very important reasons.

1. My mother would disown me, and would attempt to take my children. That's not assumption. It's a bankable fact.

2. I have three boys, and they are in boy scouts. They are in Boy Scouts because they love it. If I come out, I can no longer be a part of that. When they are grown, I will come out to them, but I will not deny them what we do as scouts.

3. I work in a very conservative school district. While there are out gays in the district, it is clear that you will not go far. And it is more clear that you won't be there for terribly long. Performance evaluations are always very easy to tank. I have three sons I must put food on the table for. If it were just me, I'd take the risk. But as long as I have to provide for my sons, I will not risk their well being so that fucks like yourself can feel better about folks being out and proud.

Let me tell you that coming out of the closet would be the easiest thing in the world for me because I don't care much what the greater world thinks. But when it comes to putting food on the table, and being the best dad I can be, I won't risk that for anything. My boys will not suffer for my decision to come out. And if you think that is cowardice, well, I've been called worse. But threaten the welfare of my sons, and I'll show you the meaning of courage.

Pasa

[hgf33]

Pasa, I have seen quite a pattern in people taking what they want from these posts, rather than actually reading what's right in front of them for face value. Personally, I'm sick of repeating myself over and over.

And I don't know many people who still use the word "queer". It's used, yes, and usually at the end of LGBT, making it LGBTQ (which has also been deemed as "questioning", for those who are curious, unsure, or uninformed.) When I watch older movies with older characters, I hear "queer". It's still used, but not much. It's aged slang. Maybe this is a generational thing. If so, let's not argue about it. Older folk say queer, fine, younger folk say gay, fine. They are both still umbrella terms, and do not define biphobia. Am I supposed to use the term bi, as well as allll the other terms so as to prevent biphobia? "They're gay."
"No, they're queer"
"Well, maybe they're bisexual."
"Sure, but maybe they're pansexual."
"Ok, but it's possible they're just open-minded and experimenting."
"They might even be asexual."
"True, or it's possible they're omnisexual."
"For all we know, they're just straight."

Gay as an umbrella term is harmless simplicity, not a conspiracy against bisexuals. I say I have clothes in my closet and dishes in my kitchen. Should I, instead, make sure I refer to each one of the objects individually so as to not look like I'm discriminating? Seriously.

And how do you think the transgendered feel? I'm pretty sure it would be safer to assume gay or straight than to make the offensively-wrong guess as to whether or not someone is transgendered! Just because someone doesn't list specifics in something doesn't mean they're against it, afraid of it, or trying to rid of it. Just means they don't feel like spending their whole day on one reference in a conversation.

[BiDaveDtown]

And I don't know many people who still use the word "queer". It's used, yes, and usually at the end of LGBT, making it LGBTQ (which has also been deemed as "questioning", for those who are curious, unsure, or uninformed.) When I watch older movies with older characters, I hear "queer". It's still used, but not much. It's aged slang. Maybe this is a generational thing. If so, let's not argue about it. Older folk say queer, fine, younger folk say gay, fine. They are both still umbrella terms, and do not define biphobia. Am I supposed to use the term bi, as well as allll the other terms so as to prevent biphobia? "They're gay."
"No, they're queer"
"Well, maybe they're bisexual."
"Sure, but maybe they're pansexual."
"Ok, but it's possible they're just open-minded and experimenting."
"They might even be asexual."
"True, or it's possible they're omnisexual."
"For all we know, they're just straight."

Gay as an umbrella term is harmless simplicity, not a conspiracy against bisexuals. I say I have clothes in my closet and dishes in my kitchen. Should I, instead, make sure I refer to each one of the objects individually so as to not look like I'm discriminating? Seriously.

And how do you think the transgendered feel? I'm pretty sure it would be safer to assume gay or straight than to make the offensively-wrong guess as to whether or not someone is transgendered! Just because someone doesn't list specifics in something doesn't mean they're against it, afraid of it, or trying to rid of it. Just means they don't feel like spending their whole day on one reference in a conversation.

If you've never heard anyone say the term queer to descirbe GLBT people you really do need to get out more. :) People who are older than I am find the term queer to be VERY offensive and many do not think that it has been "reclaimed" since it was originally used as a slur and still is.

Terms that you listed like Pansexual, open minded but "experimenting", and omnisexual are all other terms for being bisexual.

Yes many people who have internalized biphobia will use these terms as ways to describe being bisexual without actually having to come out as being bisexual.

The idea that people who are Trans or even intersex are somehow a 3rd gender is Transphobia and even Trans people and intersex people do not claim that they're somehow a Transphobic 3rd gender or a mixture of both genders.

Your argument about the dishes is a moot point. We're not discussing dishes or inanimate objects but we're discussing people and bisexuals like us who want to be visible and don't want to be discriminated against by having bigoted and ignorant gay men, lesbians, and heterosexuals assume that we even want to be identified as "gay" when we're not homosexual men or lesbian women at all since we're bisexual.

[Long Duck Dong]

If you've never heard anyone say the term queer to descirbe GLBT people you really do need to get out more. :) People who are older than I am find the term queer to be VERY offensive and many do not think that it has been "reclaimed" since it was originally used as a slur and still is.

Terms that you listed like Pansexual, open minded but "experimenting", and omnisexual are all other terms for being bisexual.

Yes many people who have internalized biphobia will use these terms as ways to describe being bisexual without actually having to come out as being bisexual.

The idea that people who are Trans or even intersex are somehow a 3rd gender is Transphobia and even Trans people and intersex people do not claim that they're somehow a Transphobic 3rd gender or a mixture of both genders.

Your argument about the dishes is a moot point. We're not discussing dishes or inanimate objects but we're discussing people and bisexuals like us who want to be visible and don't want to be discriminated against by having bigoted and ignorant gay men, lesbians, and heterosexuals assume that we even want to be identified as "gay" when we're not homosexual men or lesbian women at all since we're bisexual.

actually we do... and I would know, I am intersex..... its society and the legal system that will not acknowledge our unique state of being......and people like you that lump us in with a different group of people... IE the trans community...

we are not trans people, we are intersex people, we are not transitioning, we are born this way.... and many of us refuse to be labeled under the trans umbrella like you have just done.......

I am one of the intersex people that are borderline gender intersex, it means that our gender could shift and naturally change from one gender to the other in a complete transistion and its a natural transistion... not a surgical one....

it would be appreciated if you would stop talking for people like me as if we do not have a voice of our own, and stop telling people what we think, as we are fully capable of speaking for ourselves....

as a intersex person, I am not a trans person so its not transphobia to call me a third gender, cos its actually true, I am a hybrid of two opposing genders...

you want to be a voice for the trans and intersex communities, learn a bit more about us, before you appoint yourself the voice of our communities.... or better still, let us speak for ourselves

[hgf33]

If you've never heard anyone say the term queer to descirbe GLBT people you really do need to get out more. :) People who are older than I am find the term queer to be VERY offensive and many do not think that it has been "reclaimed" since it was originally used as a slur and still is.

Terms that you listed like Pansexual, open minded but "experimenting", and omnisexual are all other terms for being bisexual.

Yes many people who have internalized biphobia will use these terms as ways to describe being bisexual without actually having to come out as being bisexual.

The idea that people who are Trans or even intersex are somehow a 3rd gender is Transphobia and even Trans people and intersex people do not claim that they're somehow a Transphobic 3rd gender or a mixture of both genders.

Your argument about the dishes is a moot point. We're not discussing dishes or inanimate objects but we're discussing people and bisexuals like us who want to be visible and don't want to be discriminated against by having bigoted and ignorant gay men, lesbians, and heterosexuals assume that we even want to be identified as "gay" when we're not homosexual men or lesbian women at all since we're bisexual.

I don't need to get out more. I have lots of resources in the actual LGBT community, rather than links I found online (which, in itself, isn't always reliable.) I hear the word queer, and have seen it many times used as LGBTQ. Used by the community itself... Pretty sure that means it's not an offensive term anymore. But it's also not used that often anyway.

I know those are all terms for bisexual. But not everyone refers to themselves as bisexual. Let's be overly sensitive and PC now, make sure you include everyone!

You missed the entire point I was trying to make with the transgendered comment, so I'll just move on from that.

And I see you're still taking what you want from what we're saying. My inanimate objects idea was simply me making a comparison. It sounded ridiculous, right? Yeah, then I made my point. But it went over your head. And I NEVER said anything about heterosexuals assuming we want to be referred to as gay. Using an umbrella term doesn't mean they assume that's what we want! It's. Just. A. Term. Gay rights benefit us. But fine, let's get even more picky! Bisexual is an umbrella term! That's why there's a Kinsey scale. Not every bisexual is equally the same type of bi.

Not everyone CAN be out. I can't be 100% out. I want to be. But sometimes you have to think about the feelings of other people too. *gasp!*

And just because you've always known you were bi doesn't mean everyone is like you. Why the hell do you think there are so many forum threads asking everyone when they became bi?! Like I said, I get my information from the ACTUAL LGBT community, and everyone figures it out at a different age. I wasn't bi until 19. Like Pasa, I, honest to God, had NO. IDEA. It never even crossed my mind that I was anything but straight. Stop assuming everyone in the world is the same. We've obviously established that not everyone THINKS the same. Or at all.

LONG DUCK DONG!!! Thank you for your post of the edited "biphobia" list. You made very good points, and that was simply incredible. Thank you!!

[Katja]

Those are simply genetic variations that don't affect the ability of an organism to procreate.

Many things we are and are not good at don not affect the ability to procreate. My mother is not very artistic, whereas I am a more than passable watercolourist, glass painter and potter. You suggest then that anything we happen to be genetically good at that does not affect the ability to procreate, we should be chemically or medically treated for?

[Katja]

"It is something I have heard from several people, including a gay man"

Your words. Not mine.

Thank you. Several is not often. I am however unsure that you know the difference.

[elian]

..and yet again labels seem to cause more harm than they are worth..

[tenni]

I personally think that commenting on transgendered in this thread is off topic. The topic is about bisexuals and whether they would benefit from working more on their own. I have to wonder if the wheels are not falling off this thread?

As to discussing what is or is not biphobia, that is exactly a good reason to have bisexuals unite more clearly in defining /discussing such matters. From a quick glance the list that Dave? provided makes sense. Someone has spent some time developing this.

I personally find these Straight /Gay Alliances in schools to be rather bi erasure. If the bisexual aspect is not represented in the name of such groups then I see it as making bis invisible. That is just my opinion and I base it on what I know. It seems logical to me.

I do not see bisexuality as an umbrella term but I do suspect that there may be other sexualities that think of themselves as bisexual. That would be similar to when people thought of sexuality as binary (hetero or gay....monosexuals). The rainbow umbrella is suppose to be a coalition as I understand it. That is its umbrella concept. If in fact, there are other sexualities (say pansexual, asexual or some yet to be determined sexuality) who believe themselves to be bisexual that is quite different than an umbrella. That seems like ignorance in the true meaning of the word ignorance.

[Long Duck Dong]

I personally think that commenting on transgendered in this thread is off topic. The topic is about bisexuals and whether they would benefit from working more on their own. I have to wonder if the wheels are not falling off this thread?

As to discussing what is or is not biphobia, that is exactly a good reason to have bisexuals unite more clearly in defining /discussing such matters. From a quick glance the list that Dave? provided makes sense. Someone has spent some time developing this.

I personally find these Straight /Gay Alliances in schools to be rather bi erasure. If the bisexual aspect is not represented in the name of such groups then I see it as making bis invisible. That is just my opinion and I base it on what I know. It seems logical to me.

I do not see bisexuality as an umbrella term but I do suspect that there may be other sexualities that think of themselves as bisexual. That would be similar to when people thought of sexuality as binary (hetero or gay....monosexuals). The rainbow umbrella is suppose to be a coalition as I understand it. That is its umbrella concept. If in fact, there are other sexualities (say pansexual, asexual or some yet to be determined sexuality) who believe themselves to be bisexual that is quite different than an umbrella. That seems like ignorance in the true meaning of the word ignorance.

bisexuality is the internal and external manifestations of a attraction to both legal genders ( male and female )....

trans gender / sexual people are changing who they are, but that doesn't change whom they are attracted to.... and they can be M2F or F2M and still be attracted to both genders, hence they are bisexual.....

pansexual / omnisexual / asexual etc are broader definations of attraction to people that exist beyond legal definations of gender, IE intersex, trans, gender queer.... and in a purely legal sense, their attraction to those people, is still a attraction to both legal genders, hence they are bisexuals with a broader defination of attraction.....

as the legal defination of gender is male and female, not gender neutral / gender queer / intersex, the person would default to the closest legal defination in terms of gender relationships leading to marriage and so they would be legal bisexuals..... personal defination would be wider....

unless the term bisexual is only going to be applied to people that have a strictly defined attraction to only natural born males and females with a complete genetic structure and binding, and with no deviation of a strictly controlled limit of only natural born males and females with complete and perfect dna sequencing... then the bisexual umbrella embraces a good many people that have a basic bisexual attraction to both genders, and are imperfect as the people they love and are attracted to

to push them outside of the bisexual spectrum, is truely a show of ignorance and biased thinking, and a sign of the desire to have a pure elitist * sexuality * ... almost like hitlers *perfect race * of blonde haired, blue eyed people.....

so again, its a perfect example of how lack of acceptance and tolerance is not just the domain of society, but also alive and well within the bisexual community and its members.....

[tenni]

A transgendered person may be bisexual. Sexuality is not gender. The thread topic is about bisexuals (regardless of their gender) as to whether they should separate from the GLBT umbrella.

Ya daft duck.... take yer meds.

[Long Duck Dong]

A transgendered person may be bisexual. Sexuality is not gender. The thread topic is about bisexuals (regardless of their gender) as to whether they should separate from the GLBT umbrella.

Ya daft duck.... take yer meds.


then I would suggest that you stop trying to say who is allowed to have a voice and a opinion then, as its bisexuals talking about a issue that concerns bisexuals
regardless of their broader spectrum sexuality identity or their sexual / non sexual nature....

and that covers anybody with a attraction to both genders....

[slipnslide]

Many things we are and are not good at don not affect the ability to procreate. My mother is not very artistic, whereas I am a more than passable watercolourist, glass painter and potter. You suggest then that anything we happen to be genetically good at that does not affect the ability to procreate, we should be chemically or medically treated for?

Sigh.

Straw man much?

[hgf33]

Who cares if we've gotten off topic? It's called the progression of a discussion. It's not off topic if we got to this point FROM that topic.

With that, I am done with this. Over it. It's best to have agreement and unity within a community, but we can't expect it from everyone. Let's all agree to disagree and move on. I am here to make friends and allies, not argue.

So, on to better and happier topics! I wish you all the best, and I do mean all of you!

[Katja]

Sigh.

Straw man much?

About that darling, u will just have to wonder won't you, for we do not see things in quite the same light. But not as a rule. There will be no meeting of minds I fear.

[Pasadenacpl2]

So, lessee where we are. A summation, if you will.

A few people believe we need to leave the broader rainbow coalition because no one else likes us and are out to get us.

I apparently lived in the closet my entire life, was never straight, and am a coward.

Tenni is once agaim trying to define bisexuality and those who are allowed to speak on it as narrowly as possible, so as to exclude people he doesn't like.

We have rampant paranoia. A list of biphobic items that have NOTHING to do with phobia at all, and a couple of people talking about "they" and "them" in hushed tones so as to avoid the conspiracy that is white gay men from noticing. They just might get Dan Savage to speak, after all.

Pretty much a normal day here on this site.

Pasa

[void()]

"Why do so many artists identify as bisexual? I'm willing to bet there's a good chance it's all neurochemical. Mildly depressed people are more creative.

Link Between Creativity and Depression

I believe that bisexuality is also a consequence of that - and why Katja says she hears is so often from bi and gay people. From this mild depression, major depression is a real possibility and along with that comes the risk of suicide."

As a creative type, I am compelled to ask if perhaps environment may
be a portion of depression's cause? I will not argue that a portion of
cause may be due to neurochemical stimuli. But do not paint it as being
the sole cause. As for bisexuality being a consequence of depression,
or from the cause of depression as you state, I disagree.

Yes, while bisexual and creative people may both share depression, one
is not wholly inclusive of the other. Merely because you are bisexual
does not imply you to be depressed. Conversely, being creative does not
obligate you to depression. You may be depressed and neither bisexual
or creative. And whom disparages others of using straw men?


"They mention serotonin here, which coincidentally is often considered to be involved in human depression.

So while they say "At this time therefore any potential links between serotonin and human sexual preferences must be considered somewhat tenuous." - it's not crazy to think that mammals all have a similar mechanism which evolution may have tweaked slightly by species.

This is a good test for those who consider themselves so open-minded about sexuality - does your open-mindedness hold up when you find out that it might all just be a neurochemical mistake that can be fixed?"

Yes it does actually. However, I do not perceive bisexuality or any
sexuality, gender issues to be mechanical. They do not fixed unless of
course, you're having a gender switch, even then it's not fixing
anything. Yes, I would remain open minded about sexuality. I am open
minded about numerous subjects for varied reasons.

"I don't need anything to blame, I need to understand the underlying mechanisms. As I've made it abundantly clear, the pop psych feel goodery of "I'm okay, you're okay" may be fine for those who don't like to examine, but that's not me.

I have no interest in fixing you. You're too far gone, the Kool-Aid has been consumed. But there's a lot of other people who would like a treatment."

Well, it does appear you aspire to shirk responsibility for you being
who and what you are. You are as you are for whatever reason or lack of reason. Yes, there is much we can find understanding about. There is also much we can not, and I think we never will. Richard Bach penned it eloquently; "it IS what it IS, nothing more or less." So, why not enjoy life
for the sake of life and living? It goes by quickly enough without us
prodding it along.

"I'm saying both are symptoms of the same dysfunction."

And I, others rightly disagree.

"Those are simply genetic variations that don't affect the ability of an organism to procreate."

Actually if someone were say a Left sided brain thinker, fully and
wholly, they would deduce sex is illogical. This would kink up
procreating I think. A person could be rendered such via a stroke, occupational accident or other various causes or means. Neuro-chemical
is not the 'be all, end all' unless you suggest we live in sterile
vacuums without any external environs.


--8<--

"Didn't you ever read the X-Men?"


I do, or did. Stopped reading them a while back though. Figured out two
deal breaking issues.

1. Stan Lee appears to have fictionalized the Holocaust. This in and
of itself is not completely negative. But after some time angst upon
angst, used as a zeitgeist to create passive aggressive Hippies, starts
wearing thin. :) "Gee, wouldn't know anything about Hippies, no not
me. *sigh* Born a decade late was all."

2. Marvel is no longer 'The House of Ideas' Stan the Man created. It
has become a corporate ran monstrosity, rumored have sold out to Disney.
Sorry, may not care much for angst but have Disney create 'mainstream'
and 'family friendly' X-men is just as bad, if not worse. At least
Marvel did at times do adult and mature runs with titles. And some of
that stuff was really good. I recall a graphic novel with Wolverine &
Havok. Someone had captured Havok, Logan naturally gets sent to fetch.
It was pure electric feeling how pissed off the Cannuck got. :)

But I won't rattle further about comics.

[slipnslide]

Well, it does appear you aspire to shirk responsibility for you being
who and what you are. You are as you are for whatever reason or lack of reason. Yes, there is much we can find understanding about. There is also much we can not, and I think we never will. Richard Bach penned it eloquently; "it IS what it IS, nothing more or less." So, why not enjoy life
for the sake of life and living? It goes by quickly enough without us
prodding it along.


Not shirk responsibility, accept that I have a problem and aspire to fix it.

If nature gave me any other medical abnormality I wouldn't just say "it is what it is" and try to be proud of it.

What's next? A diabetes pride parade?

[Pasadenacpl2]

So, bisexuality is a problem that needs fixing.

Gotcha. You and the Religious Right should be happy together. You are not an ally.

Pasa

[slipnslide]

So, bisexuality is a problem that needs fixing.

Gotcha. You and the Religious Right should be happy together. You are not an ally.

Pasa

I've never sought to be an ally. I'm okay with going at anything alone.

The difference between the religious right and me is the basis of our arguments. Whereas they base their beliefs off some religious text, I go by the best evidence we have today on the nature of bisexuality.

In fact, you would work better with them because you're both operating blindly off ideology.

[tenni]

Ally noun
4.
a person, group, or nation that is associated with another or others for some common cause or purpose

hmm If Slip is bisexual, he is one of us whether he likes it or not ;)

Isn't the purpose of this thread to discuss whether bisexuals need to separate from their supposed "allies" in the GLBT umbrella to some extent?

Stating that one bisexual is not an ally means that you have different purposes on something. What are our common cause as bisexuals? Some seem to state that our (bisexual) common causes are being met under the umbrella. Why then are there statements about bi erasure, bi invisibility within the GLBT?

I think before we see certain heteros, G&L as allies, we bisexuals need to clarify a bit better where our common ground is as bisexuals. I guess that even within the G&L there is not common ground on all aspects.

[slipnslide]

That's right. I'm automatically discounted as an ally because I have my own opinions. Apparently unless you follow "bi scripture" you're not welcomed.

[Pasadenacpl2]

No. You are not an ay because you state that bisexuality is a disease and medical abnormality that must be cured.

You are not an ally becausewe do not need your kind of "help." Your kind of "help" is harmful. Go be self loathing elsewhere.

Pasa

[tenni]

Slip
You may not be an ally to Pasa but you have an equal voice to his as another bisexual man on this site.

I don't agree with your position about a cure either but who knows. I suspect that you are in a stage of processing your sexuality and coming to terms with your sexuality. I don't think that because you wish a cure for your sexuality negates your position. I think that it is a dangerous position but you are entitled to your perspective.

Since you wish a cure for your sexuality, do you see yourself as part of the GLBT organizations? You come to this site because it fulfills some need for you. You are posting as a bisexual,..not a gay man, not a hetero man etc. who might state that they are an ally of bisexuals. (I say prove it..and since we bisexuals are not making statements as to our needs separate from the monosexuals...how can they be an ally yet? Certainly I'm suspect of a monosexual who states that that they know what we need and as an ally will tell us disorganized bisexuals the way we should live our lives...):eek:

If some bisexuals separate and develop a more beneficial group that attracts other bisexuals good for them. If they don't then other bisexuals will remain separate from the GLBT umbrella or join it.

[Pasadenacpl2]

I've never sought to be an ally. I'm okay with going at anything alone.

The difference between the religious right and me is the basis of our arguments. Whereas they base their beliefs off some religious text, I go by the best evidence we have today on the nature of bisexuality.

In fact, you would work better with them because you're both operating blindly off ideology.

I'm not going off of ideology. I looked at your "evidence." I found your conclusions to be just on this side of lunacy and not actually aupported in any way.

But even if you are right...the difference between you and the religious right is not so far off. Different reasons, same goal, same methodology, same reason to consider you an enemy. Even worse since you are one of us.

Pasa

[slipnslide]

Since you wish a cure for your sexuality, do you see yourself as part of the GLBT organizations?

No. Definitely not. Since most don't know I'm bi I get to hear the chuckles and see the eye rolls towards GLBT organisations. In fact, in Ottawa this year they forgot about the Pride events and took away their space to start building a skating rink...at the end of August. That's how much respect they command.

Many guys I've spoken to in Ottawa also don't think very highly of the local GLBT organisations and avoid their events.

I also have decided to self-identify as heterosexual again since bisexual isn't going to work out. It was a crazy period of trying to figure it out, but I can attest that I was infinitely happier in the hetero world. In fact, this account is all that is left of my bisexual self. I've deleted all the others.

[Gearbox]

I also have decided to self-identify as heterosexual again since bisexual isn't going to work out.
Well I prey to God that you find a nice monogamous lady who'll love you for ever and won't spur you on a heterophobic self loathing spree.;)
Good luck!:bibounce:

[BiBedBud]

Jeepers, creepers, people!

This post is going to be off topic for this thread, but I think this needs to be said (written) here and now.

IMVVHO, sex is an “animal” thing. It is “primal”. It is “instinctual”.

Too much thinking and pondering can only fuck it up! All this mental churning about something so intensely physical, can only lead to neuroses.

As long as you’re not hurting anyone, what is there to worry so much about?

Like what you like, and don’t tie yourself into a knot over it (unless bondage is your thing).

Enjoy what you want to enjoy, because (this) life is short!

As for fucking the rainbow – why is this an either/or proposition? What about riding that rainbow while/where and as it suits “our” purposes, and going-it-alone as required?

:2cents:

[slipnslide]

Well I prey to God that you find a nice monogamous lady who'll love you for ever and won't spur you on a heterophobic self loathing spree.;)
Good luck!:bibounce:

Yeah, hetero monogamous is what I've done in the past. Man do I miss those days! They'll be back though.

[elian]

I know that bouncing our thoughts off of peers is a learning experience but I'm going to have to bow out of this one, it hurts too much to keep hearing the arguing. For all that I have, and who I have become I only ever really WANTED one thing in this world, to love and be loved.

-E

[Annika L]

Criminy.

I go away for a couple days, and this thread totally jumps the shark.

I've known for a long time that both straight and gay communities have significant doses of biphobia. It's interesting news to me that there's so much biphobia among bisexuals. Makes sense, but I hadn't seen it so much.

slippy, if you're really in need of an argument for how bisexuality is good for the species (do you really live your life by considering how every damned thing you do helps to perpetuate the species??), consider that at this point in time, the species needs numbers-control MUCH more than it needs fecundity. The best bet for our species is anything that slows our birth rates. Bisexuality and homosexuality both contribute to that. Even those disease rates you cite contribute to slowing our population growth rate, which is absolutely ESSENTIAL for the perpetuation of our species. Just keep in mind that not everything in nature is apples and plums...species need to be pruned and slowed down as much as they need times of growth and thriving.

[Annika L]

I know that bouncing our thoughts off of peers is a learning experience but I'm going to have to bow out of this one, it hurts too much to keep hearing the arguing. For all that I have, and who I have become I only ever really WANTED one thing in this world, to love and be loved.

-E

Elian, I love you. *kiss*

[BiDaveDtown]

Criminy.

I go away for a couple days, and this thread totally jumps the shark.

I've known for a long time that both straight and gay communities have significant doses of biphobia. It's interesting news to me that there's so much biphobia among bisexuals. Makes sense, but I hadn't seen it so much.

slippy, if you're really in need of an argument for how bisexuality is good for the species (do you really live your life by considering how every damned thing you do helps to perpetuate the species??), consider that at this point in time, the species needs numbers-control MUCH more than it needs fecundity. The best bet for our species is anything that slows our birth rates. Bisexuality and homosexuality both contribute to that. Even those disease rates you cite contribute to slowing our population growth rate, which is absolutely ESSENTIAL for the perpetuation of our species. Just keep in mind that not everything in nature is apples and plums...species need to be pruned and slowed down as much as they need times of growth and thriving.

Well said. Slip should also keep in mind that not all heterosexuals even reproduce. I have friends and relatives who are heterosexual and either by choice or for other reasons they have never reproduced or had children at all.

[mikey3000]

Most L,G,B &T people in the LGBT community don't even know what they want for them selves, never mind others. Once the issues can be agreed on, who wants what, then maybe one day we'll achieve equality. That is what we want, right? Equality? When the discrimination stops amongst ourselves, only then can we expect respect from others.

Geez, even I don't know what we're fighting for anymore. All I know is division is not the answer.

[slipnslide]

Well said. Slip should also keep in mind that not all heterosexuals even reproduce. I have friends and relatives who are heterosexual and either by choice or for other reasons they have never reproduced or had children at all.

Well said? It was ridiculous because it was a counter argument to something I never said.

Clearly I need to dumb down my postings. Starting now. (this one should be simple enough to follow)

[slipnslide]

Most L,G,B &T people in the LGBT community don't even know what they want for them selves, never mind others. Once the issues can be agreed on, who wants what, then maybe one day we'll achieve equality. That is what we want, right? Equality? When the discrimination stops amongst ourselves, only then can we expect respect from others.

Geez, even I don't know what we're fighting for anymore. All I know is division is not the answer.

Doesn't everyone have all the equality they need in Canada? What are they not getting today? At any problem someone throws a Charter flag on the play and it's problem solved.

Maybe that's the problem in Canada now, there isn't any need for LGBT advocacy groups since they have everything they wanted. I don't know a single person who works with or participates in their events anymore. Sort of like advocating for the eradication of small pox isn't it?

[NotLostJustWandering]

Not only has this thread gone way off-topic, it's gone off-topic in several different directions. It's made it hard to follow, and very annoying to read.

I have created a new thread for the topic slipnslide started here:
Mice, serotonin and altering sexuality (http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11670)

PLEASE everyone:
If you're going to continue discussing mice, serotonin, etc. PLEASE POST THERE.

If you're going to continue discussing any of the other points that have been introduced that ARE NOT RELEVANT to djones's original post, PLEASE START A NEW THREAD on that topic.

Let's please save this thread for the topic djones started. Thank you!!!!!

[mikey3000]

I don't know a single person who works with or participates in their events anymore. Sort of like advocating for the eradication of small pox isn't it?

You're talking to one. But I agree. In Canada we are very fortunate to have the rights we do, and have them applied evenly accross the board. The problem is that Canada is not the world. Many places, even just to our south, don't, and are struggling to find their feet. Americans are very polarized and their government are pitting the left against the right. Divide and conquer is their motto.

[Pasadenacpl2]

It's a good point, though. When we get our rights, and equality is achieved, what then is the need for LGBT groups?

My goal has always been equality under the law. Anything else is just icing on the cake. I don't care what people think, as long as they can't take anything away from me due to my sexuality.

Who cares if they think I'm gay or straight rather than bi? It doesn't matter to me one way or the other. If it doesn't affect my pocket book, my ability to be employed, my ability to participate in activities with my children, or my ability to seek out my own happiness as I find it, then it doesn't matter a whit.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

It's a good point, though. When we get our rights, and equality is achieved, what then is the need for LGBT groups?



Pasa

Can think of one Pasa... has a lot 2 do wiv meetin peeps an gettin a legova!!!:bigrin:

[BiBedBud]

Can think of one Pasa... has a lot 2 do wiv meetin peeps an gettin a legova!!!:bigrin:

;)

I agree with darkeyes.

I say "Fuck under the rainbow!"

Fuck on the rainbow...
Fuck around the rainbow...
Fuck behind and in front of the rainbow...

Of course, fuck at the ends of the rainbow... et cetera, et cetera. :tongue:

[Long Duck Dong]

It's a good point, though. When we get our rights, and equality is achieved, what then is the need for LGBT groups?

My goal has always been equality under the law. Anything else is just icing on the cake. I don't care what people think, as long as they can't take anything away from me due to my sexuality.


exactly and its the same thing I have been talking about in NZ, and other NZ members have posted the same thing.... the bisexual community faded away once they had their rights..... cos they no longer had any reason to unite for a purpose

about the only time that they do get together, is for the LGBT pride parades ( when they are held )...and thats about it......

once we had the rights of civil union, the bisexuality turned on itself like a pack of wild dogs, arguing and fighting over whom was the right person to speak for the bisexual community.... and each aspect of the bisexual community wanted their person to stand at the head of the table......

so you have the poly bis, the monogamous bis, the single bis, the married bis, the long term bis etc all wanting to have their person speak for the community but as happens, each person was standing for the interests and image of their group, not bisexuals as a community......

the image the bisexual community as a whole, agreed that needed to be shared, was one of bisexual diversity.... the image that was pushed is one of bisexuals are people that are happiest with two lovers of each gender.....
not relationships, not marriages, no happy long term relationship with one partner and casual sex with others, no single bisexuals.... but two lovers of each gender..... cos it was the best look for bisexuals and the bisexual community.... not a true one....

look at the number of married, single, poly and closed relations and marriages in the site.... and how they outnumber the bisexuals with two lovers....

so what is left of the once united bisexual community, mainly exists in one city in NZ, auckland, the rest splintered off and faded away.......

the same thing is happening to the Les and gay communities.... as more and more gays and lesbians want to be taken seriously now, not be seen as people that haunt gay / les bars, hitting on people and sleeping around..... a image the gay male community is still fighting.....

unfortunately its a lesson that can not be shared, there will be people that will be adamant that their vision will work ...... and they are the people that will not hear any other voice but their own and they are the ones, that will continue to deny any aspect of bisexuality that doesn't fit their own view.... and that is what will destroy the bisexual community, cos the bisexual community will get sick of being told to conform to the * right form * of bisexuality, and not their own personal bisexual nature and state....

[darkeyes]

exactly and its the same thing I have been talking about in NZ, and other NZ members have posted the same thing.... the bisexual community faded away once they had their rights..... cos they no longer had any reason to unite for a purpose

about the only time that they do get together, is for the LGBT pride parades ( when they are held )...and thats about it......

once we had the rights of civil union, the bisexuality turned on itself like a pack of wild dogs, arguing and fighting over whom was the right person to speak for the bisexual community.... and each aspect of the bisexual community wanted their person to stand at the head of the table......

so you have the poly bis, the monogamous bis, the single bis, the married bis, the long term bis etc all wanting to have their person speak for the community but as happens, each person was standing for the interests and image of their group, not bisexuals as a community......

the image the bisexual community as a whole, agreed that needed to be shared, was one of bisexual diversity.... the image that was pushed is one of bisexuals are people that are happiest with two lovers of each gender.....
not relationships, not marriages, no happy long term relationship with one partner and casual sex with others, no single bisexuals.... but two lovers of each gender..... cos it was the best look for bisexuals and the bisexual community.... not a true one....

look at the number of married, single, poly and closed relations and marriages in the site.... and how they outnumber the bisexuals with two lovers....

so what is left of the once united bisexual community, mainly exists in one city in NZ, auckland, the rest splintered off and faded away.......

the same thing is happening to the Les and gay communities.... as more and more gays and lesbians want to be taken seriously now, not be seen as people that haunt gay / les bars, hitting on people and sleeping around..... a image the gay male community is still fighting.....

unfortunately its a lesson that can not be shared, there will be people that will be adamant that their vision will work ...... and they are the people that will not hear any other voice but their own and they are the ones, that will continue to deny any aspect of bisexuality that doesn't fit their own view.... and that is what will destroy the bisexual community, cos the bisexual community will get sick of being told to conform to the * right form * of bisexuality, and not their own personal bisexual nature and state....

Might be like you say in NZ Duckie me luffly.. dont see it bein like that here. Scene is much the same as its always in my time, cept prob more so.. peeps, lesbian and gay, bi sow the ole wild oats have fun an in time find sum 1 fall in luff a settle down.. sometimes it lasts sometimes it dusn't.. sometimes peeps are faithful an others stray the nest... arguments go on bout how the world is, the str8 world, bisexual and gay worlds but essentially its little different from when I started out except that its much more liberally available. Arguments go on bout how we should live, whats best and how we move on... its not so different from 17 years ago or so when I first started exploring my sexuality. People of all sexualities want to be taken far more seriously than when they were young. They often do become far more conservative and are more prepared to sound reasonable... the young gay and bisexuals are still pains in the arse and want things now... older a lil more ready to accept that these things take time... peeps come and go and peeps change... the community, the lgbt community stays more or less the same.... a fractious, often sectarian, bad tempered, impatient, disparate group who just want things to get better for themselves and the world.

There remains a vibrant gay and bi community which still has much to do and thats a fact. There has never been an entirely united gay or bisexual community. There has always been strife and always will cos people have brains in their heads and want things done their way... thats what liberty is about.. and freedom of speech.. democracy. We might rip each other to shreds but when push comes to shove we have always come together in unity of purpose.. and we always will cos if we dont we wither and die and the world of the bigot will eat us up and shite us out.

We still have decades b4 we can even think of disbanding and saying "Well we can do no more. Lets call it a day" and sit wiv stupid self satisfied smug smiles on our faces... no duckie darlin. Think u remember things with nice rosey coloured specs... suggest u take them off and try and remember what it was really like and how we really got to where we are... it may not be quite the same, but neither is it so very different..

[tenni]

Ok...I could go on about an non sexual person telling sexual bisexuals how things are going down and what is wrong with "us"...I won't.

I applaud the bisexuals of New York city who are banding together slightly out of the umbrella to explore their own needs. All that I can remember hearing from djones is that presently they are organizing social activities. Is that correct dj? How is that going? Do you feel closer to each other ...maybe in a brother-sister hood or is it sexually tension at the gatherings? Is this the same group that was snogging at Stonewalls and got booted out?...lol Tell us how things are going?

[Katja]

Ok...I could go on about an non sexual person telling sexual bisexuals how things are going down and what is wrong with "us"...I won't.



By the very comment above darling, you did.:)

[tenni]

By the very comment above darling, you did.:)

I know but I was brief..darl'n:bigrin::bigrin:

[djones]

I applaud the bisexuals of New York city who are banding together slightly out of the umbrella to explore their own needs. All that I can remember hearing from djones is that presently they are organizing social activities. Is that correct dj? How is that going? Do you feel closer to each other ...maybe in a brother-sister hood or is it sexually tension at the gatherings? Is this the same group that was snogging at Stonewalls and got booted out?...lol Tell us how things are going?

Thanks for the applause - and thanks for bringing us back to topic !

The event organizing is starting off well. A good group of people - men and women - are meeting and we are planning fun social events which we intend to launch in September (Celebrate Bisexuality Day is on 23 September) . These events are not about politics or protest, they are about connecting people and having a fun time (movie screenings, bowling parties, club nights - that type thing). As is natural, a sense of community can grow out of this and we can channel that in to already established discussion groups that continue to work inside and outside of the LGBT rainbow (remember - we aren't in opposition !) .

And yes - several of us are from the "Stonewall Snoggers" . To be fair, they booted us for not ordering drinks, not because we were Bi. Of course, had they not been so rude, we would have bought drinks and been happy to hang out !

[elian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3rr4CEHjOk ?

[Long Duck Dong]

Might be like you say in NZ Duckie me luffly.. dont see it bein like that here. Scene is much the same as its always in my time, cept prob more so.. peeps, lesbian and gay, bi sow the ole wild oats have fun an in time find sum 1 fall in luff a settle down.. sometimes it lasts sometimes it dusn't.. sometimes peeps are faithful an others stray the nest... arguments go on bout how the world is, the str8 world, bisexual and gay worlds but essentially its little different from when I started out except that its much more liberally available. Arguments go on bout how we should live, whats best and how we move on... its not so different from 17 years ago or so when I first started exploring my sexuality. People of all sexualities want to be taken far more seriously than when they were young. They often do become far more conservative and are more prepared to sound reasonable... the young gay and bisexuals are still pains in the arse and want things now... older a lil more ready to accept that these things take time... peeps come and go and peeps change... the community, the lgbt community stays more or less the same.... a fractious, often sectarian, bad tempered, impatient, disparate group who just want things to get better for themselves and the world.

There remains a vibrant gay and bi community which still has much to do and thats a fact. There has never been an entirely united gay or bisexual community. There has always been strife and always will cos people have brains in their heads and want things done their way... thats what liberty is about.. and freedom of speech.. democracy. We might rip each other to shreds but when push comes to shove we have always come together in unity of purpose.. and we always will cos if we dont we wither and die and the world of the bigot will eat us up and shite us out.

We still have decades b4 we can even think of disbanding and saying "Well we can do no more. Lets call it a day" and sit wiv stupid self satisfied smug smiles on our faces... no duckie darlin. Think u remember things with nice rosey coloured specs... suggest u take them off and try and remember what it was really like and how we really got to where we are... it may not be quite the same, but neither is it so very different..

yeah its what its like in NZ.... other nz members have posted about the same thing.......

not being a married lesbian in the uk or a closeted bisexual in canada, doesn't mean that I am wrong or seeing things the wrong way, cos I am not having sex or cos I am seeing things in NZ in the same way others are and that would be cos I live in NZ and I am seeing a lot more of what is happening here than people that don't

as for the non sexual talking about what sexual people are doing wrong..... well tenni, yeah... its the sexual people that screwed up the bisexual community.....

btw lil man.... helen clark, the female prime minister of NZ, that was the person that united a country so we got the civil union bill..... she was asexual.... most of NZ can not name any of the 7 bisexual members of parliament cos they are all closeted and hide their sexuality....

lol simply, it took a asexual, with the support of the lesbian and gay politicians, to get rights for all people........ without the help and support of 7 sexual bisexuals......

would love to see you in NZ rubbishing asexuals, while you enjoy the rights a asexual helped get a country.... instead of hiding in the closet in canada than going on and on about how bisexuals are not being visible enuf....

[Annika L]

Well said? It was ridiculous because it was a counter argument to something I never said.

Clearly I need to dumb down my postings. Starting now. (this one should be simple enough to follow)

If by "dumb down" you mean "say what I mean", then I'm with you. Precisely which of these lines are you claiming not to have said?

To me directly:

For many biological features we can see the evolutionary rationale. Sexuality is was more difficult to explain.

To hgf:


Non-heteronormative is counterintuitive. What is the point to these sexualities? How does it benefit the species?

If I misunderstood these quotes to mean that you want to know an evolutionary rationale for bisexuality, and/or how they benefit the species, then I am ever so sorry, and yes, you should dumb down your posts. What exactly *did* you want to know?

[Diva667]

For whatever it's worth there are also bi and homo sexual animals.

Look at the Bonobo (http://www.primates.com/bonobos/bonobosexsoc.html). Chimps , too have homo sexual relations. As well as all sorts of other animals.

Sex is not just for reproduction. It's also for establishing tribal relationships.

[drugstore cowboy]

Annika that guy left the site apparently.

[elian]

I had long thought about what someone else already posted here, with regard to the biological "purpose" of having a non-heterosexual relationship. It occurs to me that there are already an over abundance of orphaned children in the world. Those of us who cannot make our own might be willing to adopt..?

If every single M/F human couple decided to have children all at once then wouldn't the world be a very crowded place?

There are things that LGBT can do within society to be productive, contributing members of society besides procreate. I believe someone already mentioned that in a precious few other cultures people with alternate sexualities are not shunned but treated with dignity and respect. For example sometimes a shaman in indigenous cultures. What little i know of Native American culture folks were also treated respectfully.

I would also like to think that bisexual people have a unique outlook on things that might be more diplomatic or something but that's hard to prove considering that state of these threads.

[Katja]

Sex is not just for reproduction. It's also for establishing tribal relationships.

Isn't it also just for fun and to help us feel good?;)

[Diva667]

Isn't it also just for fun and to help us feel good?;)
Well there's that, too. But if you're looking for a 'biological purpose', other than reproduction, maintaining social bonds is your go to. Especially among Homo and Bi sexual relationships.

BTW- Bonobo's are matriarchal. The females form such strong bonds that they 'gang up' on males who get out of line.

[elian]

Is this at all like the group of female relatives and coworkers I have that are constantly trying to fix me up with a nice lady? Not that I don't appreciate their sentiment but it's just that they've never seen my tongue hanging out the window watching the men's cross country track team jog down the road..

[darkeyes]

Is this at all like the group of female relatives and coworkers I have that are constantly trying to fix me up with a nice lady? Not that I don't appreciate their sentiment but it's just that they've never seen my tongue hanging out the window watching the men's cross country track team jog down the road..

When I worked for the local council there was a wimpy drippy guy everyone was convinced was gay... even me as it so happens. He never said anything about his sexuality, but he was the epitomy of the effeminate very camp gay... his whole demeanor (and his perfume) reeked of it. No one tried to fix him up with any girls cos they didnt see any point in it, but the little ole ladies all wanted to mother him cos they adored him.... so did I even if I didnt try and mother him.

7 or 8 months after I left to go back to uni, imagine my surprise when I was told that he had only got off with and was engaged to the sexiest most gorge girl in the building! My tongue had been hanging out for several years over her but she had always had the pick of the crop when it comes to guys! Couldnt believe me ears when I was told they were getting hitched and when I saw them together some time later my eyes bulged in disbelief.

He is still to look at what up here would be called a "big Jessie" and it still beggars belief that he isnt gay. He tells me he isn't even bi, has never been and doesnt fancy guys in the least but found what he calls his niche in the market.. a very effective way for a wee wimpy guy of pulling girls who have a strong mothering instinct! The bastard!! But he is a nice dirty bastard...:)

Nowt to do wiv the thread, Elian babes.. but what the hell.. par for the course in .com innit?? tee hee:bigrin:

[elian]

That's the trouble Fran, I think my gaydar is jammed anyway because you can't always tell someone's desire by the tone of their voice and how many Broadway showtunes they love to sing..

I don't fault the "aunties" for trying to be friendly and help with the match-making .. I'm relatively straight-acting in public but weird in other ways.

[elian]

It's funny, I just attended an inter-faith spiritual service (end of Pride weekend here) and it occurs to me just how ignorant my comment above was. The room was filled with predominantly LGBT folks, many of whom you'd likely never see all grouped together in one place around this conservative area and there were all different kinds of people, not just people who enjoy broadway shows and those who sound as if they got their trouser zippers stuck in a tender place. The answer I think is love and personal understanding. The more of those two things we can have (and share with others), the more chance we have for acceptance.

Although at times we may be hurting, the beautiful thing is that grace is always available.

http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC01/Manitong.htm

[dorayme73]

I don't know. I am bi-curious with some experience in the bi sexual area. I have no interest what so ever in causing the world to recoginze my state. I'll do my thing and you do yours.
You say potato and I say potato -