copycat riots

[bigbadmax]

Manchester, Salford, Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Croydon, Bristol, Plymouth.
Where next!
Mindless thugs who are intent on causing misery, destruction and funding their criminal lives. Bend em over n turk their arse. Bloody scum.
This aint political nor racial nor revenge. Purely down to the joy and profit of crime.
685 arrests
111 Charged.

Scum-they should have burnt in the 140 yr old family firm burnt to the ground.

[12voltman59]

From the reports I have seen--it is a bunch of young thugs going wild. If that is so---I hope that the increased police presence on the streets settles things down and they catch those responsible for the havoc and "throw the book" at them.

[bigbadmax]

I find it amazing that ALL the protaganists(?) interviewed pass blame onto others. ALL the victims cant understand the mindlessness and greed.
When Katrina hit, the criminal elements looted guns not food. These criminally led mobs have NO interest in Duggan and indeed his familly have condemned the violent reaction.
No one thinks of the victims such as small business nor those made homeless.

[Hephaestion]

There was a SriLankan couple interviewed on TV. They had lost everything. Hard working honest individuals now thoroughly destitute. The despair in the man's eyes was awful.

A phone clip showed a young man bleeding from head/face injury and groggy as a result. He was mugged by older white teenagers as he struggled to stay conscious.

[bigbadmax]

The parents HAVE to be held to account as well. How can a 9,10 or similar age child NOT be missed at home during a riot.The land of freedom of expression has in parts become the land of fear and fire.

[12voltman59]

The thing with these riots---with the meltdowns going on as we speak in the world's financial markets----if things really do go to total shit----riots of this sort in the UK are probably only going to be the beginning of such violent social unrest all over the place.

I hope that I am wrong--but I really do feel that we are about to enter an era of some very dark times. I think that any optimism and hope are going to be in short supply in the coming days, months and years.

[darkeyes]

The thing with these riots---with the meltdowns going on as we speak in the world's financial markets----if things really do go to total shit----riots of this sort in the UK are probably only going to be the beginning of such violent social unrest all over the place.

I hope that I am wrong--but I really do feel that we are about to enter an era of some very dark times. I think that any optimism and hope are going to be in short supply in the coming days, months and years.

Voltie.. scares the hell outa me but u could well be right.. am not sayin we will go quite down the road to total chaos in the west and not even here tho way things r ya cant rule out owt... but as always happens when we have a government of the colour we do, and whenever there is economic hard times and getting harder.. things are always a lil more fractious.. the crap that most peeps in this country are being expected to swallow more or less guarantees that.. hopefully not the kind of fractiousness we have seen last few days, but doubt we can rule it out..

[jamieknyc]

The thing with these riots---with the meltdowns going on as we speak in the world's financial markets----if things really do go to total shit----riots of this sort in the UK are probably only going to be the beginning of such violent social unrest all over the place.

I hope that I am wrong--but I really do feel that we are about to enter an era of some very dark times. I think that any optimism and hope are going to be in short supply in the coming days, months and years.

Has anyone come up with anything showing that the rioters have a political agenda?

[love1234]

Has anyone come up with anything showing that the rioters have a political agenda?
Usually when you start to look into these type things it leads back to elite organizations that are being financed by the Rothschild's or Rockefellers. The groups of thugs will be led by under cover cops, f-b-i, MI types. They may have many idealist idiots as front people and thug leaders also.

You could listen to Alex Jones I'm sure he would have very good idea of who is behind this.

[maninlove]

From the reports I have seen--it is a bunch of young thugs going wild. If that is so---I hope that the increased police presence on the streets settles things down and they catch those responsible for the havoc and "throw the book" at them.

"Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere..." Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


we are with you all

[Katja]

Has anyone come up with anything showing that the rioters have a political agenda?

Jamie, there is no discernible political cause to which the rioters subscribe, but the sheer scale and frequency of the riots, as well as the numbers involved tell us not all in the garden is rosy. There is more to this mess than simply criminals doing what they will. Government will make a huge mistake if it is put down to mere thuggery and nothing else.

Unfortunately, after listening to Cameron today address the House of Commons and other political leaders and MPs, that is just the way they are going to treat it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14485592

[12voltman59]

I don't think these miscreants have any political objectives--they are primarily looting electronics stores, stealing things like flat screen TVs, IPads and stuff like that--then they burn businesses like a furniture store that was in operation for well over 100 years---with the store containing many irreplaceable antique items---shows where their values are----steal Xboxes and worthless crap like that but destroy part of the UK's history----one good thing--I did see where in one of the areas they destroyed businesses---they did leave a bookstore alone.

It does seem the thugs were specially targeting the little mom and pop grocery stores---mostly those run by immigrants or former immigrants from places like the Middle East.

I heard in one report--the thugs were queing up in a line to pillage an electronics store----SHITBIRDS!!!

Somebody needs to take those punks out in an alley and give them a good old fashioned "flogging"

[jamieknyc]

Riots here or there are spontaneous outbreaks that usually start over police-brutality incidents. People who try to read political agendas into them are imposing their white, middle-class ideas onto urban ghetto rioters.

[bigbadmax]

KATJA,
What a load of bull.
It does not matter what political emblem you support, ALL SIDES of the Palace of Westminster are stating the same as the Prime Minister, including red Ed.

How can u justify children taking part? Business owners are suffering as well as famillies. Can u justify the Malaysian student being comforted and robbed.

Get off politics and start thinking how u could help rather than trying to score dirty political points.

[Katja]

I am making no political points. What I am trying to do is to make people understand that thousands of British people of all races suddenly erupted into a frenzy of arson and plunder for a reason. It was not just chance. What I am saying is that this may not have been a political riot but it does have political and social consequences and almost certainly had a political and social cause. We do ourselves no favours if we treat these events as nothing but criminal behaviour and thuggery.

There are underlying causes which have to be found if we are to avoid a repeat in future. Failing to properly investigate and find out why these disgraceful events occurred would be an abrogation of responsibility by government and of politicians of all parties and ourselves if we do not put pressure on politicians to find out why these dreadful events happened.

We know what the spark was, and some information on the immediate aftermath. Until the smoke clears and a little time passes our horror and shock will prevent us from asking the right questions. We are probably too shell shocked to know what they are. But they will be asked, and government and opposition parties will have to answer those questions and begin resolve the issues they will raise.

If we do not do these things, and begin to resolve these issues and be seen to be resolving them, then it is likely that at some stage in the not too distant future we shall see a repeat of these riots, except that next time it may not be thuggery and criminality we are bemoaning, but the fact that thousands of our citizens felt it necessary to riot in pursuit of the political cause which may well emerge from politicians ignoring the fact that lessons needed to be learned other than just criminality and thuggery.

Dont get me wrong. Those responsible cannot be allowed to get away with the incredible mayhem and destruction they caused, and the deaths and injuries which their insanity brought about, and the fear wrought on thousands of innocent people in the localites involved. Punishment must suit the crime and those most responsible must be brought to book and punished with as much severity as the law allows.

But we cannot afford to miss the opportunity to find out why thousands of people, not all criminals, or poor and impoverished, but university graduates and other professional people felt they could riot with impunity and ruin, endanger and even take human lives.

It may be bullshit to you, Max, but to prevent any recurrence, we must consider these things a little more cerebrally than just looking at the fact that everything was simply criminal wrong doing and nothing more.

Since you demand to know, I have requested meetings with both my MP and MEP and have also written to both, as well as to the leaders of the main political parties. I do not have a great deal of faith in any of them but it is the system we have, and am trying as best as I can to be constructive and ensure they do their job properly. You may it think to be indequate, and it is regrettably, but intend to do what I can to ensure that politicians do not drop the ball and do what they are supposed to.

On a more practical note, I have telephoned and written to two of my suppliers whose premises and stock were damaged and lost in riots in London to see what assistance I can give them which might ease there way back into trading. Today I took time to ensure all outstanding invoices to both firms were paid, including one for goods which are still in transit to me. These are quite small sums amounting to less than a thousand pounds in total, but somehow I think they need it more than me.

In addition I have today paid by credit transfer funds to a friend in Potters Bar to enable her to pay the excess for repair to her car which was damaged by rioters in Tottenham and arranged and paid for two weeks car rental to enable her to get to work.

[love1234]

Jamie, there is no discernible political cause to which the rioters subscribe, but the sheer scale and frequency of the riots, as well as the numbers involved tell us not all in the garden is rosy. There is more to this mess than simply criminals doing what they will. Government will make a huge mistake if it is put down to mere thuggery and nothing else.

Unfortunately, after listening to Cameron today address the House of Commons and other political leaders and MPs, that is just the way they are going to treat it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14485592
Todays governments are run my criminal thugs. Murder and robbing is what they do.

Violence is what they do as thats all they know.

[love1234]

I find it amazing that ALL the protaganists(?) interviewed pass blame onto others. ALL the victims cant understand the mindlessness and greed.
When Katrina hit, the criminal elements looted guns not food. These criminally led mobs have NO interest in Duggan and indeed his familly have condemned the violent reaction.
No one thinks of the victims such as small business nor those made homeless. That is true in a way but most people went to get food. Thats (criminal elements looted guns) what your tv wants you to believe.

People need to eat. Most just wanted something to eat and drink.

I think they just convicted like 4 or 5 cops for murdering people that wanted to cross bridge so they could get food?

It was in the news here in the states.

[bigbadmax]

Love,

My wife is from N'Awlins and therefore know first hand. Her familly lost 5 properties and ALL possessions. Katrina was a natural disaster. Riots are purely choice, not necessity.


Those who commited crimes over here were not driven by survival and need but pure malice and greed.

[jamieknyc]

A lot of people in Britain do seem to be badly shaken up by all this.

[bigbadmax]

Jamie,

We ordinarially dont do violence. Its major headlines in the UK when gun crime rears its ugly head.Riots last took place 20 yrs ago due to politics. Theres no excuse this time.

Thankfully 3 mothers have already turned their children in. The majority of the uk abhors this violence.

Gun culture the cure? NOT IN MY NAME!

[softfruit]

It would appear to me that a lot of people who have been on the fringes of each outbreak of violence, intimidation, arson and theft (let's not dignify it with 'riot') were there somewhat like people who get swept up in stuff like the Princess Diana funeral palaver - it's all over the telly, it's what everyone is talking about, and at that point sense and perspective for some folk go out of the window.

However every sign is that the core of the trouble in each place seems to have been the gangs bankrolled by drug dealing. To get a decent idea of what underpins it all I just dig out my copies of Life On Mars and flick to the bit in the story of the Hacienda where it had to close at the start of the 90s.

There's definitely nothing 'political' about it in the sense of ideology or national government, though the tactics and language around ukuncut and the bnp has helped to incite or legitimise those on the fringes.

[love1234]

Love,

My wife is from N'Awlins and therefore know first hand. Her familly lost 5 properties and ALL possessions. Katrina was a natural disaster. Riots are purely choice, not necessity.


Those who commited crimes over here were not driven by survival and need but pure malice and greed.
The dams were blown by the government.

They wanted to whiten the city and move as many blacks out as possible as they are bad for the elites businesses.

[love1234]

Love,

My wife is from N'Awlins and therefore know first hand. Her familly lost 5 properties and ALL possessions. Katrina was a natural disaster. Riots are purely choice, not necessity.


Those who commited crimes over here were not driven by survival and need but pure malice and greed.


The elites print the money. They have informers and agents in near every gang, group in every country on earth.

They run most these group as has been shown over and over again.

Many riots are staged and most riots going on around the world now or all them are being staged for power and controll.

[love1234]

Jamie,

We ordinarially dont do violence. Its major headlines in the UK when gun crime rears its ugly head.Riots last took place 20 yrs ago due to politics. Theres no excuse this time.

Thankfully 3 mothers have already turned their children in. The majority of the uk abhors this violence.

Gun culture the cure? NOT IN MY NAME!

You have a criminal mass-murdering government that spits in Gods face.

You harbor the elites criminal mass-murdering banking system in London.

Your government has shiped demon-crazy to the world and the world hates you because of your lies about this bloodsucking fraud.

You have been disarmed by the eilites so when you want to stop them you can't.

They have you all trained to think all this is good.

[darkeyes]

You have a criminal mass-murdering government that spits in Gods face.

You harbor the elites criminal mass-murdering banking system in London.

Your government has shiped demon-crazy to the world and the world hates you because of your lies about this bloodsucking fraud.

You have been disarmed by the eilites so when you want to stop them you can't.

They have you all trained to think all this is good.

ahahhhh.. ur arse is flappin again...

..try puttin the brain in gear an not soundin' quite so paranoid... cos 'part from the God bollox an the bein disarmed bit... there is moren a germa truth in bitsa wot u say.. an course, peeps been tryin 2 train me 2 fall inta line for a long time... still give 'em a hard time...

[jimdawg]

Considering the Rothschilds haven't been outrageously relevant for 100 years outside of the minds of the grossly paranoid and stupid, why not reach back 2000 years? I think its all a Christian conspiracy, burning of a city. Sound familiar?

Or maybe the Masons are behind it!

Or maybe the Huns.

So Rothschilds, huh? Really? Wow. You don't hear that every day, or any day, from sane, or insane non-Anti-Semitic people.

[hornysnake]

If these kids who riot would have programs like basketball, or wrestling, or any kind of activivity, then they could channel their frustrations through that, we have to get the kids involved in extra activities.

[jamieknyc]

Considering the Rothschilds haven't been outrageously relevant for 100 years outside of the minds of the grossly paranoid and stupid, why not reach back 2000 years? I think its all a Christian conspiracy, burning of a city. Sound familiar?

Or maybe the Masons are behind it!

Or maybe the Huns.

So Rothschilds, huh? Really? Wow. You don't hear that every day, or any day, from sane, or insane non-Anti-Semitic people.

The Rothschilds are still around, although they aren't as wealthy or as prominent as they were in the nineteenth century. But you're right, Rothschild-conspiracy theories are about as dated as Jesuit-conspiracy theories. Today, you never even hear about the so-called "Jewish lobby" except from some hard-left types who need to have their Elders of Zion bogeyman.

[jimdawg]

The Rothschilds are still around, although they aren't as wealthy or as prominent as they were in the nineteenth century. But you're right, Rothschild-conspiracy theories are about as dated as Jesuit-conspiracy theories. Today, you never even hear about the so-called "Jewish lobby" except from some hard-left types who need to have their Elders of Zion bogeyman.

You hear about it from right wingers too, if they're outright Nazis. David Duke says it a lot.

[bigbadmax]

I have been a guest of Charlotte de-Rothschild. As an injured Gulf war vet, she took a group of 30 or more of us around her estate and gave us a private tour where the public cant go.Charlotte was the kindest lady I have met in a while. Her farther was just as kind-on his death Charlotte could have dropped the charity but didnt.

Love, dont be so narrow minded.

[darkeyes]

The Rothschilds are still around, although they aren't as wealthy or as prominent as they were in the nineteenth century. But you're right, Rothschild-conspiracy theories are about as dated as Jesuit-conspiracy theories. Today, you never even hear about the so-called "Jewish lobby" except from some hard-left types who need to have their Elders of Zion bogeyman.

oooo Elders of Zion... such suspicion and distrust of the "Elders of Zion" that exists about Jews among those of us on the left are confined to issues concerning the middle east and Israel... and not all Jews at that by any means.. many Jews both inside and outside of Isreal are not zionists... many are quite embarrassed by Zionism and are active in opposition to it. It is Zionism we oppose and Zionists and Zionism and its adherants pure and simple.. Jews always have and do still take an honourable and prominent place in hard left political philosophy and activity... by their thousands...

We do not and have not ever believed, in common with the rest of the left throughout the world, in a Jewish conspiracy against the rest of humanity. We leave that to other paranoid, quite despicable and loathesome political groups and people. The left does not condemn a people because of their ethnicity or origin, and are not paranoid about ancient "conspiracies". We leave that to those of the far right.. we much prefer to take issue with people as people on the issues... like any other ethnic group.. some support, some are neutral or middle of the road and some are opposed to what Jamie calls the "Hard Left".

[jamieknyc]

oooo Elders of Zion... such suspicion and distrust of the "Elders of Zion" that exists about Jews among those of us on the left are confined to issues concerning the middle east and Israel... and not all Jews at that by any means.. many Jews both inside and outside of Isreal are not zionists... many are quite embarrassed by Zionism and are active in opposition to it. It is Zionism we oppose and Zionists and Zionism and its adherants pure and simple.. Jews always have and do still take an honourable and prominent place in hard left political philosophy and activity... by their thousands...

We do not and have not ever believed, in common with the rest of the left throughout the world, in a Jewish conspiracy against the rest of humanity. We leave that to other paranoid, quite despicable and loathesome political groups and people. The left does not condemn a people because of their ethnicity or origin, and are not paranoid about ancient "conspiracies". We leave that to those of the far right.. we much prefer to take issue with people as people on the issues... like any other ethnic group.. some support, some are neutral or middle of the road and some are opposed to what Jamie calls the "Hard Left".

Martin Luther King, who undertstood these things better than most, said that those who say they are against 'Zionism' are using it as a code word for Jews.

You may know a few Marxist Jews in Britain who profess to be opponents of Zionism. Every race and every group has its Uncle Toms. However, there are a huge number of British Jews who have emigrated to Israel, far more than any other Westren country. I suspect folks like you are part of the reason.

It is ultimately a pointless debate, because the Diaspora is a dying civilization.

[bigbadmax]

Wow Jamie,
whats with the anger?

[love1234]

Considering the Rothschilds haven't been outrageously relevant for 100 years outside of the minds of the grossly paranoid and stupid, why not reach back 2000 years? I think its all a Christian conspiracy, burning of a city. Sound familiar?

Or maybe the Masons are behind it!

Or maybe the Huns.

So Rothschilds, huh? Really? Wow. You don't hear that every day, or any day, from sane, or insane non-Anti-Semitic people.

The banker gangsters have been around way before Jesus Christ. A couple thousands of years would be good guess?

If you have ever read a Bible? One of the last things Jesus did before he was murdered was over turn the money changers. Remember the Temple and Jesus going off on the evil ones?

That was the last straw. The elites were not going to have their banks exposed for the criminals they were and are.

Nothing has change in thousands of years! The evil banker gangsters have just gotten much better at what they do which is enslave people and nations, mass murder for fun and profit.

Its just so much easier now with them owning the book printers (creating false history) the money machines (printing the money), the newspapers and the tv programming.

[love1234]

I have been a guest of Charlotte de-Rothschild. As an injured Gulf war vet, she took a group of 30 or more of us around her estate and gave us a private tour where the public cant go.Charlotte was the kindest lady I have met in a while. Her farther was just as kind-on his death Charlotte could have dropped the charity but didnt.

Love, dont be so narrow minded.

The elite love acting like the are caring people as they finance both side in wars they start.

They mass-murder young naive people and enslave their nations with their evil usury.

[love1234]

ahahhhh.. ur arse is flappin again...

..try puttin the brain in gear an not soundin' quite so paranoid... cos 'part from the God bollox an the bein disarmed bit... there is moren a germa truth in bitsa wot u say.. an course, peeps been tryin 2 train me 2 fall inta line for a long time... still give 'em a hard time...

Can you speak English at all?

[love1234]

You hear about it from right wingers too, if they're outright Nazis. David Duke says it a lot.

All the nazis type organizations seem always to be run by Jews. This is the history of these groups in this country (u.s.a.).

"The primary meaning of Ashkenaz and Ashkenazim in Hebrew is Germany and Germans. This may be due to the fact that the home of the ancient ancestors of the Germans is Media, which is the Biblical Ashkenaz...Krauss is of the opinion that in the early medieval ages the Khazars were sometimes referred to as Ashkenazim...About 92 percent of all Jews or approximately 14,500,000 are Ashkenazim." The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia:

Looks like even the term nazi is from the Khazars that claim to be Jews.

Many people believe Hitler was part Jew. I would think Hitler was part Khazar jew from every thing I have read about him. He was part Rothschild it would appear as his mom worked for them and came home pregnant? Lord Rothschild may have also knocked up his grand mother so he looks like incest bastard of the Rothschild banking family?

People do not become rulers of modern counties without powerful families backing them.

[love1234]

The Rothschilds are still around, although they aren't as wealthy or as prominent as they were in the nineteenth century. But you're right, Rothschild-conspiracy theories are about as dated as Jesuit-conspiracy theories. Today, you never even hear about the so-called "Jewish lobby" except from some hard-left types who need to have their Elders of Zion bogeyman.

They are richer and more powerful than ever.

Putin grabbed a Russian oil company that he though belonged to billionare Jew that fled to the middle east (fake Israel) to avoid going to prison. Well guess what the Rothschild family really owned the oil company. Putin did not stand up against the Rothschild family.

They hide their wealth with agents in near every country if not all countrys on this earth. They more than likely are in control of 70% of the worlds wealth.

[Long Duck Dong]

The banker gangsters have been around way before Jesus Christ. A couple thousands of years would be good guess?

If you have ever read a Bible? One of the last things Jesus did before he was murdered was over turn the money changers. Remember the Temple and Jesus going off on the evil ones?



jesus was making a statement about the love of money in a place of worship....and how greed and power is fueled by the love of money.....
the people in a place of worship, were * worshipping * money, not god....and in a sense defiling a place of god....

hence it tells you in the bible that where two or more people are gathered in the name of jesus, to worship him, that is a church.... and that is part of the difference you now see between the catholic church with all their millions... and a christian gathering in a church or leased building with lil money, but so much to offer and share

[love1234]

Considering the Rothschilds haven't been outrageously relevant for 100 years outside of the minds of the grossly paranoid and stupid, why not reach back 2000 years? I think its all a Christian conspiracy, burning of a city. Sound familiar?

Or maybe the Masons are behind it!

Or maybe the Huns.

So Rothschilds, huh? Really? Wow. You don't hear that every day, or any day, from sane, or insane non-Anti-Semitic people.
Anti-Semitic is a term used my agents of criminal governments and groups like the adl to stop conversation that rings too true.

Its also used by people that watch too much tv.

[love1234]

jesus was making a statement about the love of money in a place of worship....and how greed and power is fueled by the love of money.....
the people in a place of worship, were * worshipping * money, not god....and in a sense defiling a place of god....

hence it tells you in the bible that where two or more people are gathered in the name of jesus, to worship him, that is a church.... and that is part of the difference you now see between the catholic church with all their millions... and a christian gathering in a church or leased building with lil money, but so much to offer and share
Jesus attacted the criminals. It was the criminal banker gangsers that had Jesus put to death. The priest class and the lawyers were all in on it as they still are to this very day.

It was Jesus's last act and what did he do? He attacted the criminals that were robbing his people.

[darkeyes]

Martin Luther King, who undertstood these things better than most, said that those who say they are against 'Zionism' are using it as a code word for Jews.

You may know a few Marxist Jews in Britain who profess to be opponents of Zionism. Every race and every group has its Uncle Toms. However, there are a huge number of British Jews who have emigrated to Israel, far more than any other Westren country. I suspect folks like you are part of the reason.

It is ultimately a pointless debate, because the Diaspora is a dying civilization.

Yes Jamie, just what is the anger?

I very much doubt Jews have emigrated because of me or people like me.. I think the numbers who are anti zionist are far too numerous to be counted as Uncle Tom's.. and because Martin Luther King, great man that he was said something.. does not make him right.. for in this he was, in my opinion, most assuredly wrong...

...and the Diaspora a dying civilisation? It is not and never has been a civilisation.. it has however contributed hugely to the development of our civilisations...

[darkeyes]

Can you speak English at all?

When it suits the purpose, babes.. when it suits the purpose..:)

[Long Duck Dong]

Jesus attacted the criminals. It was the criminal banker gangsers that had Jesus put to death. The priest class and the lawyers were all in on it as they still are to this very day.

It was Jesus's last act and what did he do? He attacted the criminals that were robbing his people.

you really believe what you spout don't you.......

jesus avoided the temples cos he talked with the people and viewed the temples not as places of worship but places where the love of money was practised....

so here is no way he could have attracted the the criminals to the temples, cos he never taught there..... but he spoke out against the love of money in a place of worship and how the temples have become places where the money of money overshadowed the love and worship of god......

he was already attracting opposition because he was teaching people there was another way to worship, to be free to have faith, that was not controlled by priests etc...... and it was called praying to god and worshipping jesus as the son of god..... and that was freeing his people from the * chains * of religious belief

[darkeyes]

..., there are a huge number of British Jews who have emigrated to Israel, far more than any other Westren country. I suspect folks like you are part of the reason.



If I am so awful, England so terrible, and Israel so wonderful then why do so many Jews from my society, a very different beast from the rest of the UK, leave it not for reasons of bigotry and intolerance, but for reasons Scottish people have always most commonly left this country, and overwhelmingly Jamie, not to Israel but to just about anywhere else, including England...??? Why is that do u think?

That there is anti Jewish feeling in my country I cannot deny.. but none of it Jamie comes from me or people like me.. and none leaves this country, or any other part of the UK for that matter because of me or people like me..

"20th and 21st centuries

Immigration continued into the 20th century, with over 8,000 Jews in 1905.[7] Refugees from Nazism and the Second World War further augmented the Scottish Jewish community, which has been estimated to have reached 80,000 in the mid-20th century.[8] It is important to remember that the Jewish population in the United Kingdom peaked at 500,000 but has declined to almost half that number today.[9]...


According to the 2001 census, approximately 6,400 Jews live in Scotland, most of whom are in Edinburgh (about 1,000), Glasgow (about 5,000) and to a lesser extent Dundee. Scotland's Jewish population continues to be predominantly urban. The SSPCA came into conflict with the Aberdeen congregation over slaughtering methods at the turn of the 20th century. As with Christianity, the practising Jewish population continues to fall, as many younger Jews either become secular, or intermarry with other faiths. Scottish Jews have also emigrated in large numbers to the USA, England and the Commonwealth for economic reasons, as other Scots have done. The trial of Oscar Slater might suggest a culture of injustice. Only a handful have moved to Israel
[15]"

The resource is Wiki Jamie, but it is as reliable and factual a resource in this instance as any other... Just so u cant say I'm doctoring it for my own purposes you can look at the lot... its there, warts and all...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Scotland

[jimdawg]

Yes Jamie, just what is the anger?

I very much doubt Jews have emigrated because of me or people like me.. I think the numbers who are anti zionist are far too numerous to be counted as Uncle Tom's.. and because Martin Luther King, great man that he was said something.. does not make him right.. for in this he was, in my opinion, most assuredly wrong...

...and the Diaspora a dying civilisation? It is not and never has been a civilisation.. it has however contributed hugely to the development of our civilisations...

Actually, Frannie, a lot of Jews fled socialist regimes that persecuted them. For instance, they left Iraq, which wasn't a bastion of right wingism (well, it was, but that's another story). Similarly they fled revolutionary Algeria into France and Israel, and a lot of Jews fled the USSR. More Jews fled into Israel from left wing regimes than right wing regimes in fact, as the right wing regimes tended to kill all their Jews before they could leave. If right wing regime Jews could get out before WWII, they usually went to America.

Just do a demographic breakdown of Israel. You'll find a lot of left wing myths break down. Truth is, more refugees fled into Israel from the Middle East after its foundation than Palestinians forced into the territories and leaving Israel. Why no outrage for repatriation? Because Israel settled them inside its territory. And the Israelis complain that the Arabs won't do the same for the Palestinians. An Iranian Jew culturally is very different from an Algerian Jew. Yet Israel was capable of settling them. That's not to say that things are perfect, one of my main complaints about Israel is the fact they tend to hold Middle Eastern as second class citizens at times. But even opposition of "Zionism"-what is Zionism? Zionism is the belief that a "Jewish" state should exist in Zion. This isn't well defined. By this standpoint, many Israeli Arabs are de facto Zionists. So when people on the left go out and criticize "Zionism" they run into a logic problem: If you oppose the concept of Jews living in Israel under the Zionist State, why do you support the concept of non-Jews living there? Because they were natives? But then you're granting some sort of nationalist wish upon the land-that only people born in an area have a right to live in an area. And Nationalism to the left is a no-no, isn't it? Why do Palestinian National Rights triumph over Israeli ones in such a mindset?

But if it is right wingism that you protest, protesting Zionism is a misnomer. You don't protest left-wing Zionism, or Zionism that allows for the Palestinians to live in Israel as equals, no, you protest Likudism. There is a difference, but Europeans (And Americans) generally fail to understand it. However, networks such as Al Jazeera actually get this point very well-though right wingers in America and Europe don't seem to understand Al Jazeera and think it is a bunch of (non-Democratic) socialist squawking about Zionology.

The Socialist solution, by the way, to the "Jewish Question"-and I don't mean Social Democrat either-was to set up a Socialist Jewish State inside of the USSR and move all the Jews to a poorly developed place in Siberia. This worked out very well for the Germans and all sorts of groups that Stalin disliked. That's why Israel is there and the Jewish Oblast failed-the USSR's response to Zionism was somewhat genocidal.

[jamieknyc]

Yes Jamie, just what is the anger?

I very much doubt Jews have emigrated because of me or people like me.. I think the numbers who are anti zionist are far too numerous to be counted as Uncle Tom's.. and because Martin Luther King, great man that he was said something.. does not make him right.. for in this he was, in my opinion, most assuredly wrong...

...and the Diaspora a dying civilisation? It is not and never has been a civilisation.. it has however contributed hugely to the development of our civilisations...

The 40,000 British Jews in Israel who gave up comfortable lives in places like Golders Green to live in a developing country on one-third of the income did so mostly from Zionist motives. They are found in all sectors of Israeli society. In that respect, they are different from American and Canadian Jews living in Israel, very few of whom went there for Zionist-socialist ideology and who are there mostly for religious reasons.

[jimdawg]

Jesus attacted the criminals. It was the criminal banker gangsers that had Jesus put to death. The priest class and the lawyers were all in on it as they still are to this very day.

It was Jesus's last act and what did he do? He attacted the criminals that were robbing his people.

OK, if this gets me banned, I don't care, but go back to Stormfront, you nazi scum. Here's 14 words for you:

I don't care who you are, because you're a stupid, intolerant, piece of trash.

[sammie19]

My mother spoke to me by telephone this morning and told me that an old school friend was arrested and imprisoned for his part in the riots in Hackney. I am not even going to try and excuse him, but it is completely out of character for a guy who is a university graduate and holds down a good job and would never have said boo to a goose. He is quite simply nice.

Mum had no details except that he has been given a prison sentence but it does show that all kinds of people were caught up in the riots and even the most normally decent and law abiding have somehow been sucked into the chaos.:(

[sammie19]

Here is a happy ending for one guy and a shock and a half for another. His divine revelation videos didn't do the thief much good.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14536870

[darkeyes]

Actually, Frannie, a lot of Jews fled socialist regimes that persecuted them. For instance, they left Iraq, which wasn't a bastion of right wingism (well, it was, but that's another story). Similarly they fled revolutionary Algeria into France and Israel, and a lot of Jews fled the USSR. More Jews fled into Israel from left wing regimes than right wing regimes in fact, as the right wing regimes tended to kill all their Jews before they could leave. If right wing regime Jews could get out before WWII, they usually went to America.

Just do a demographic breakdown of Israel. You'll find a lot of left wing myths break down. Truth is, more refugees fled into Israel from the Middle East after its foundation than Palestinians forced into the territories and leaving Israel. Why no outrage for repatriation? Because Israel settled them inside its territory. And the Israelis complain that the Arabs won't do the same for the Palestinians. An Iranian Jew culturally is very different from an Algerian Jew. Yet Israel was capable of settling them. That's not to say that things are perfect, one of my main complaints about Israel is the fact they tend to hold Middle Eastern as second class citizens at times. But even opposition of "Zionism"-what is Zionism? Zionism is the belief that a "Jewish" state should exist in Zion. This isn't well defined. By this standpoint, many Israeli Arabs are de facto Zionists. So when people on the left go out and criticize "Zionism" they run into a logic problem: If you oppose the concept of Jews living in Israel under the Zionist State, why do you support the concept of non-Jews living there? Because they were natives? But then you're granting some sort of nationalist wish upon the land-that only people born in an area have a right to live in an area. And Nationalism to the left is a no-no, isn't it? Why do Palestinian National Rights triumph over Israeli ones in such a mindset?

But if it is right wingism that you protest, protesting Zionism is a misnomer. You don't protest left-wing Zionism, or Zionism that allows for the Palestinians to live in Israel as equals, no, you protest Likudism. There is a difference, but Europeans (And Americans) generally fail to understand it. However, networks such as Al Jazeera actually get this point very well-though right wingers in America and Europe don't seem to understand Al Jazeera and think it is a bunch of (non-Democratic) socialist squawking about Zionology.

The Socialist solution, by the way, to the "Jewish Question"-and I don't mean Social Democrat either-was to set up a Socialist Jewish State inside of the USSR and move all the Jews to a poorly developed place in Siberia. This worked out very well for the Germans and all sorts of groups that Stalin disliked. That's why Israel is there and the Jewish Oblast failed-the USSR's response to Zionism was somewhat genocidal.I do know that there are various different strands to Zionism, Jim. Also I am aware of the persecution of Jews in the Soviet Union and other countries of the old Soviet empire.... whether it was state persecution of Jews on religious grounds is questionable for no ethnic group was, officially at any rate, any better or worse than the other under the constitution of the USSR or any other of its satellites... but persecution did happen but it happened to almost every group within the eastern bloc at one time or other, especially during the time of Stalin. Sadly I have no doubt much was religious and ethnic based for intolerance of Judaism was ingrained deeply in Russian society at the time of the revolution and as much of the oppression was more because of the prejudices of officials than of the state. It can be argued justifiably that the state failed in its obligation to its people, and there can be no doubt that this was the case. Far too infrequently did the the state intervene against corrupt and racist officials.... very often it encouraged them especially in the time of Stalin and his neurotic purges. I am not a defender of the old Soviet Union and much of how it worked, and have never accepted it is socialist or even as being left wing... no state which oppresses its people as did the USSR and those states which owed it fealty should have our sympathy... but Jews were not oppressed necessarily because they were Jews.

Not as many of what you call left wing myths break down as you claim. Israel is not a beacon of democracy as it and others might claim. The exodus from Palestine after the war of 1948 and the status of Arabs now hardly shows Israel and zionism in a good light. It can be argued and is that arabs are better off in Israel than not, yet tell that to the arabs whose villages are bulldozed and homes confiscated to mke way for walls and Jewish settllements. Socialist zionism is to me contradictory in terms since as an Internationalist the nationalism which it contains makes it at best social democratic... that it is certainly far more compassionate than nationalist or religious zionism is certainly true but it is a long time since it had any real power for any length of time. Likudism is cerainly a particularly insidious form of zionism, relying as it does on being a tough guy, and is certainly racist in nature...and allied to the more orthoodx parties which represent the worst of relgious zionism it is a very dangerous and unpleasant animal indeed... not for it any accomodation within or without the country with what it perceives as it mortal enemies. Israel is not quite the all encompassing democracy which treats people as equals irrespective of ehtnicity and religion..

I agree that the Palestinians, and the arab and moslem worlds will have to make peace with Israel.. but equally, Israel will have to make peace with the arabs.. both will have to be prepared to deal with each other honestly and fairly.. there is no sign of it by either at present. I have often said that Israel should never have been established as a state and I still believe that, but it was and it was allowed to do so partly becaause of western guilt because of what happened to the Jews of Europe in WW2. That it has been established and it does exist means that we have to accept what is, and not harp back to what it was and gripe about what should never have been. Israel exists as a political entity, as Zion, and and both the Islamic world and everyone else has to make its survival a starting point together with the necessity of a creating a homeland for the Palestinian arabs. Israel and the Palestinians have to move together and have to accept their existence and work together to begin the process of earning each others trust.... until they do so there will be no peace in that region. But it is incumbent on Israel more than the Palestinians and arab states in the immediate area to make the move towards peace.. it is they who stand on the heights and have the position of strngth, and backed by the most powerful nation on earth for whom Israel acts as proxy in the region, the weakness of its Palestinian and arab neighbours gives them very little to bargain with.

Israel must cease to be Zion, and become a state truly for all the people who are its citizens.

The USSR's solution to the question of Jewish homeland was always doomed to fail. It was a not a socialist solution as you say but a confused sound bite by a pretty repugnant leader of a political sytem which was never socialist and never a serious option. Socialism can never be built from the top down... but thats a little point but to me a quite an important one..

We have totally lost our way on this thread, Jim, and moved to issues which really have nothing to do with the it.. fascinating though as they have been.. but the argument is fun..

[darkeyes]

My mother spoke to me by telephone this morning and told me that an old school friend was arrested and imprisoned for his part in the riots in Hackney. I am not even going to try and excuse him, but it is completely out of character for a guy who is a university graduate and holds down a good job and would never have said boo to a goose. He is quite simply nice.

Mum had no details except that he has been given a prison sentence but it does show that all kinds of people were caught up in the riots and even the most normally decent and law abiding have somehow been sucked into the chaos.:(

God Sam.. ya dus kno sum rite dodgy peeps... mite havta ban ya from me house.. nev kno wetha it will still b standin wenya leave...;)

ps.. ya have me xternal hard drive by the way.. havent seen it since last time ya wer 'ere..:tong: U not been lil T leaf now havya.. tee hee

[jimdawg]

I do know that there are various different strands to Zionism, Jim. Also I am aware of the persecution of Jews in the Soviet Union and other countries of the old Soviet empire.... whether it was state persecution of Jews on religious grounds is questionable for no ethnic group was, officially at any rate, any better or worse than the other under the constitution of the USSR or any other of its satellites... but persecution did happen but it happened to almost every group within the eastern bloc at one time or other, especially during the time of Stalin. Sadly I have no doubt much was religious and ethnic based for intolerance of Judaism was ingrained deeply in Russian society at the time of the revolution and as much of the oppression was more because of the prejudices of officials than of the state. It can be argued justifiably that the state failed in its obligation to its people, and there can be no doubt that this was the case. Far too infrequently did the the state intervene against corrupt and racist officials.... very often it encouraged them especially in the time of Stalin and his neurotic purges. I am not a defender of the old Soviet Union and much of how it worked, and have never accepted it is socialist or even as being left wing... no state which oppresses its people as did the USSR and those states which owed it fealty should have our sympathy... but Jews were not oppressed necessarily because they were Jews.

It is tough to explain Zionology or the Jewish Oblast in terms of the Soviet Union's state not being anti-Semitic. There can be no doubt that Zionology is not anti-Zionism, and that it is indeed anti-Semitic. The Soviet Union's policies towards its Jews, in fact, are why there are so many Jews who are so vehemently anti-left, period-despite them being in the minority of Jews.



Not as many of what you call left wing myths break down as you claim. Israel is not a beacon of democracy as it and others might claim. The exodus from Palestine after the war of 1948 and the status of Arabs now hardly shows Israel and zionism in a good light. It can be argued and is that arabs are better off in Israel than not, yet tell that to the arabs whose villages are bulldozed and homes confiscated to mke way for walls and Jewish settllements.

I'm not going to defend an eye for an eye here, but you neglect the Jewish refugees not from Europe but from the Middle East. Look at the demographic breakdown of Jews in Egypt in 1940 and then again now. Or Syria. Or Algeria. Especially Algeria. Not to justify the settlements or the bulldozing, but the failure of Muslim States to protect their Jews/encouragement of the Muslim States to oppress and support pogroms against their Jews without a doubt led directly to some settlements in Israel due to the fact new refugees needed housing and Israel was one of the few countries they could quickly escape to. This isn't saying Israel is a beacon of Democracy or not, it is saying that Israel was essentially founded as a refugee state and one has to acknowledge all the Sephardim there.




Socialist zionism is to me contradictory in terms since as an Internationalist the nationalism which it contains makes it at best social democratic... that it is certainly far more compassionate than nationalist or religious zionism is certainly true but it is a long time since it had any real power for any length of time. Likudism is cerainly a particularly insidious form of zionism, relying as it does on being a tough guy, and is certainly racist in nature...


Since there are many Likudi Jews from descent of Arab lands who appear phenotypically un-European, I fail to see how it could be racist in nature but instead, religiously intolerant. Big difference, and I would cite Hitler on the difference too in Mein Kampf complaining about the rule of Joseph II: Jews could escape being Jewish in the eyes of Germans by converting to Catholicism. Same thing applies to a lot of hardline Israelis: Convert to Judaism, you're welcome. That's not racism at all, but it is religious bigotry, certainly. Even Lieberman supports citizenship for Arabs provided they have an oath of loyalty to Israel. Racism means no inherent change. I would point to Israel being more racist economically and socially in the place of the Jews of descent from Muslim lands/Arabs simply not being as rich or powerful as the Ashkenazim, although there are plenty of rich Arabs and Sephardim as well.




and allied to the more orthoodx parties which represent the worst of relgious zionism it is a very dangerous and unpleasant animal indeed... not for it any accomodation within or without the country with what it perceives as it mortal enemies. Israel is not quite the all encompassing democracy which treats people as equals irrespective of ehtnicity and religion..



Under the laws, again, ethnically, yes, religiously, no.




I agree that the Palestinians, and the arab and moslem worlds will have to make peace with Israel.. but equally, Israel will have to make peace with the arabs.. both will have to be prepared to deal with each other honestly and fairly.. there is no sign of it by either at present.


To this day, the main Israeli problems deal with security and resources in the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights (and Sheeba Farms). Israel unilaterally pulled out of Lebanon under Labor. Since Hezbollah only got stronger, and for a small plot of land supposedly that Israel is saying belongs to Syria and Syria is saying belongs to Lebanon (although Syria does not really recognize the right of Israel, Lebanon or Jordan to exist making this seem hypocritical) peace seems out of bounds for Lebanon, despite Israel not occupying Lebanese territory. It should be of note, Israel occupies none of Egypt's territory (despite occupying a vast swath) and has made peace. The same applies to Jordan (which is part of historical Palestine, has a Palestinian majority population, and essentially is a Palestinian country that is not ruled by Palestinians, mostly due to British support of the Hashemites). In my opinion, Israel has shown a willingness to make peace, and the Palestinians showed a willingness to make peace until Barak unilaterally withdrew from Lebanon. Since then I strongly believe that Palestinian factions were coerced into thinking they can repeat the same success and since no opponents of Israel think that the Palestinians should give up any territory, there's little incentive on that side to negotiate. At the same time, the Israelis do not want to give up any more territory than necessary (preferably none) for a mixture of reasons. First, almost all Jews until the late Ottoman period lived in the West Bank. Second, under Jordan, Jewish sites were by and large destroyed in the West Bank-and this is important-Israel has absolutely no reason to trust they won't be destroyed under a Palestinian State. Official Israeli policy has by and large protected Mosques since the War of Independence. This reality must also be acknowledged internationally, isn't, and thus the Israeli position seems more difficult to understand but guarantees to the security of Jewish sites would go a long way without really violating Palestinian rights.

The reality is that multiparty talks in the region are necessary representing all interests of the local Arab Countries. Isolation of Palestinian militancy will lead to the Israelis listening to international pressure. Israel isn't armed to fight Ghandi.




I have often said that Israel should never have been established as a state and I still believe that, but it was and it was allowed to do so partly becaause of western guilt because of what happened to the Jews of Europe in WW2.


It wasn't just the guilt as much as Jewish refugees outright invaded in 1946-49 looking to flee people who just killed them. You're looking at it from the point of view that the holocaust happened and thus the powers supported it. Not quite; Jews simply did not want to live in Europe any more and I do not believe that after 1943, as well as rumors of the Doctors Plot in Russia and official Soviet policies towards Jews, and pogroms still occurring in Eastern Europe, that they should have been expected to live in Europe...But to have such an attitude ignores the influence of al-Husseini and Arab anti-Semitism BEFORE the "Nakba" as well as the position of the Nasser regime in being trained by Nazis (and subsequently Nazi propaganda appearing in the Arab world, starting in Egypt, since). If Israel was not created, it is not clear that the Jews in Algeria would not have been thrown out and robbed once the French regime collapsed. But at the same time, Saddam Hussein invited Iraqi Jews back into Iraq-only to finish off taking their property and to throw them in jail. So blaming white guilt ignores again the Jews from Arab lands and perpetuates the myth that the holocaust is the cause of all the white guilt in the world. Most things in fact do not happen because of white guilt.



That it has been established and it does exist means that we have to accept what is, and not harp back to what it was and gripe about what should never have been. Israel exists as a political entity, as Zion, and and both the Islamic world and everyone else has to make its survival a starting point together with the necessity of a creating a homeland for the Palestinian arabs. Israel and the Palestinians have to move together and have to accept their existence and work together to begin the process of earning each others trust.... until they do so there will be no peace in that region. But it is incumbent on Israel more than the Palestinians and arab states in the immediate area to make the move towards peace.. it is they who stand on the heights and have the position of strngth, and backed by the most powerful nation on earth for whom Israel acts as proxy in the region, the weakness of its Palestinian and arab neighbours gives them very little to bargain with.

Israel must cease to be Zion, and become a state truly for all the people who are its citizens.


Actually, Israel is a state for all who are its citizens. The question for the left is who are in its territories who are NOT its citizens.




The USSR's solution to the question of Jewish homeland was always doomed to fail. It was a not a socialist solution as you say but a confused sound bite by a pretty repugnant leader of a political sytem which was never socialist and never a serious option. Socialism can never be built from the top down... but thats a little point but to me a quite an important one..


The Jewish Oblast was not a soundbite of a repugnant leader but the USSR's official policy up until collapse even past de-Stalinization. Moving all Jews out of Europe into an underdeveloped part of Siberia goes way beyond a soundbite.



We have totally lost our way on this thread, Jim, and moved to issues which really have nothing to do with the it.. fascinating though as they have been.. but the argument is fun..

I blame the neo-Nazi. My 14 words reference was to David Lane. He brought up the Rothschilds and the codewords.

[darkeyes]

On a more cheery note on alla this argy bargy Jim, me m8 got off with a Rothschild... he was very dishy... very minor Rothschild but he was nice and had a few quid. Cow kept 'er gob shut about it until one day when we were in London and bumped into him going into the Shaftesbury Theatre.. talk about oozin' charm... an not sleazy charm eitha..

..charm doesnt play much tho when it comes to nazis does it Jim me luffly?

[jimdawg]

On a more cheery note on alla this argy bargy Jim, me m8 got off with a Rothschild... he was very dishy... very minor Rothschild but he was nice and had a few quid. Cow kept 'er gob shut about it until one day when we were in London and bumped into him going into the Shaftesbury Theatre.. talk about oozin' charm... an not sleazy charm eitha..

..charm doesnt play much tho when it comes to nazis does it Jim me luffly?

Heh maybe that's the issue. Those Rothschilds are too darned charming! :bigrin:

[jamieknyc]

The Soviet "Jewish Oblast" is a relic of Stalin's plan to deport the Jews to Siberia. In his last years, Stalin started a serious effort to do so, but died before he could carry it out. There are only 2,000 Jews in the Oblast, according to the last census.

It is pointless for anyone to rant agauinst Zionism, because those who do are trying to turn back the tide of history. I have no particular admiration for the Marxist ideology of the Zionists. But you cannot ignore their achievements.

[jimdawg]

The Soviet "Jewish Oblast" is a relic of Stalin's plan to deport the Jews to Siberia. In his last years, Stalin started a serious effort to do so, but died before he could carry it out. There are only 2,000 Jews in the Oblast, according to the last census.

It is pointless for anyone to rant agauinst Zionism, because those who do are trying to turn back the tide of history. I have no particular admiration for the Marxist ideology of the Zionists. But you cannot ignore their achievements.

It isn't pointless. Israel is not perfect and the failings of Zionism are a point to be made. Even in Israel, without people complaining about what has happened since the founding of Israel, there's no way for Israeli society to move forward culturally. If Zionism was perfect, there would be no organized crime in Israel. There would be no consequential cultural divide between Arab and Jew, or Ashkenaz and Sephards. There would be no governmental corruption.

The reality is that there is bad organized crime in Israel, there still is no peace, there are racism problems among Jews themselves towards other Jews-let alone Arabs, and Israel's government is among the most corrupt of the Western Democracies, neglecting Turkey (I don't consider too many countries out of the USSR Democracies except Belarus, as a joke). This stuff isn't talked about much. Israel is less corrupt than its neighbors, yes, but too many politicians go to jail, there's too much cronyism, and yes, these are failings of Zionism, and yes, these are failings that aren't inherently linked to "Marxism".

The problem with the Zionism debate is the context of Israel. Israel is no worse to Arabs than Syria, for instance, or oppressive to Palestinians than Jordan. It isn't more religious than Egypt. It isn't more oppressive than Syria. It is less corrupt than Syria. And this is where the Israeli accomplishments are: Despite being in a hostile neighborhood with incompetent neighboring governments, Israel has a decent standard of living with good freedoms if you're one of its citizens. I think most people in the West Bank would much rather be occupied in the West Bank than "Free" in Syria.

And that's what burns me. People talk about Israeli occupation, but nary a word about the Turkish occupation of Cyprus. They didn't talk about the Syrian occupation of Lebanon either until Bush kicked the Syrians out (Yes, he actually did something right, once). China occupies Tibet and Xinjan, and then you have the Kashmir issue. There's a lot of occupation in the world, a lot of it far more damaging and deadly than the Israeli issue, yet everyone focuses on Israel, as if its more imperative than everywhere else somehow.

Can someone explain to me why the Russians are still in Koenigsburg? I mean, the Russians have changed the names of all the Soviet names-with one exception.

[jamieknyc]

Jim, no one can turn back the clock, whether it is in East Prussia, Israel or anyone else.

I disagree wiht you that Israel's problems are not related to the Marxist ideology of Zionism. People in Western countries rant against Netanyahu and the Likud because they have paranoid fantasies that Netanyahu is the puppet master pulling the strings of conservative Western leaders like Bush and Cheney. But the real power in Israel is not held by the Likud, but rather by the socialist apparatchiks and those person in the private sector who were able to set themselves up as oligarchs because of their connections with the socialists who hold the real power in that country.

[jimdawg]

So you mean katsav thought he could use his position to rape women because Marxism? Fascinating...I never thought of it quite like that. I just thought he was a rapist, not a Marxist.

[darkeyes]

Jamie.. while there is an injustice in the world, we should all be shouting the odds about it.. because something has come to pass, if there is something not quite right at its inception, then we should all do what we can to eliminate that injustice... to one person it is a rant.. to you certainly it is a rant.. to another it is a cry of reason and against injustice...it does not necessarily mean undoing all that has been done, but it does involve undoing and correcting the worst of it..

[jamieknyc]

So you mean katsav thought he could use his position to rape women because Marxism? Fascinating...I never thought of it quite like that. I just thought he was a rapist, not a Marxist.

Katsav did not actually do anything that Bill Clinton and many other Western leaders did with impunity. In Western countries, rape requires force or the threat of force. However, Israel is a conservative country where sexual conduct that would be considered consensual in Western countries may be considered rape under Israeli law. lying to someone to get laid is considered rape in Israel, for example. In Katsav's case, he was convicted of rape because the woman said she was afraid she would be fired if she said no.

However, that wasn't what it was really about: what really happened was that a socialist elder statesman born in Europe wanted Katsav's job, so someone was found to press charges so this dumb schmuck who was born in Iran could be gotten rid of. He was a hack politician, but he didn't deserve to go to jail while Olmert still walks free.

[sammie19]

God Sam.. ya dus kno sum rite dodgy peeps... mite havta ban ya from me house.. nev kno wetha it will still b standin wenya leave...;)

ps.. ya have me xternal hard drive by the way.. havent seen it since last time ya wer 'ere..:tong: U not been lil T leaf now havya.. tee hee

Thats me. A bad un right enough.

Sorry but it wasnt me that nicked the hard drive. Mine is a hang of a sight better than the junk you've got.

Have you checked if Sybina is still in situ however.;)

[jimdawg]

Katsav did not actually do anything that Bill Clinton and many other Western leaders did with impunity. In Western countries, rape requires force or the threat of force. However, Israel is a conservative country where sexual conduct that would be considered consensual in Western countries may be considered rape under Israeli law. lying to someone to get laid is considered rape in Israel, for example. In Katsav's case, he was convicted of rape because the woman said she was afraid she would be fired if she said no.

However, that wasn't what it was really about: what really happened was that a socialist elder statesman born in Europe wanted Katsav's job, so someone was found to press charges so this dumb schmuck who was born in Iran could be gotten rid of. He was a hack politician, but he didn't deserve to go to jail while Olmert still walks free.

So because Clinton got head from Monica, katsav did what he did. And he was set up by the socialists. I understand. I never thought of it that way. I'm not saying Olmert is good. Just saying threatening firing for sex isn't that bad and is a Marxist thing to do. Am I taking the right bit of info away?

[love1234]

OK, if this gets me banned, I don't care, but go back to Stormfront, you nazi scum. Here's 14 words for you:

I don't care who you are, because you're a stupid, intolerant, piece of trash. I would have to believe you think the same thing about Jesus.

[jamieknyc]

So because Clinton got head from Monica, katsav did what he did. And he was set up by the socialists. I understand. I never thought of it that way. I'm not saying Olmert is good. Just saying threatening firing for sex isn't that bad and is a Marxist thing to do. Am I taking the right bit of info away?

Katsav was just a political hack, and the state doesn't need him, even in a ceremonial position. He also got railroaded, though, for being the Israeli equivalent of the 'wrong color' in America and because a socialist oligarch decided he wanted Katsav's job.

[love1234]

Katsav did not actually do anything that Bill Clinton and many other Western leaders did with impunity. In Western countries, rape requires force or the threat of force. However, Israel is a conservative country where sexual conduct that would be considered consensual in Western countries may be considered rape under Israeli law. lying to someone to get laid is considered rape in Israel, for example. In Katsav's case, he was convicted of rape because the woman said she was afraid she would be fired if she said no.

However, that wasn't what it was really about: what really happened was that a socialist elder statesman born in Europe wanted Katsav's job, so someone was found to press charges so this dumb schmuck who was born in Iran could be gotten rid of. He was a hack politician, but he didn't deserve to go to jail while Olmert still walks free.

So now conservative means white slave trade and making the stolen females your whores, mass murdering your neighbours, stealing your neighbours home and land, organ harvesting and trafficking, giving criminals a safe place to stay just because they are Jews?

Very conservative?

[Pasadenacpl2]

Love.....you are delusional and an anti-semite. You should be thankful for relative anonymity of the internet. It allows you to say such things without the normal fear someone should have uttering such things in public.

Pasa

[love1234]

Love.....you are delusional and an anti-semite. You should be thankful for relative anonymity of the internet. It allows you to say such things without the normal fear someone should have uttering such things in public.

Pasa
Telling the truth is not anti-Semite. I'm not scared to speak the truth in public. The truth is not delusional.

People that accuse other people of being anti-Semitic are normally government agents or work for the adl and are trying keep people from telling the truth or someone that watches too much tv.