New here....in a dilemma...long story..HELP!

[Etienneman]

Hi All...

I'm in a soul shaking dilemma, and this is a very long story. Let me state initially...I'm here for advise, not judgment. Here goes...

My now Ex-wife and I were together for almost two and a half decades, and recently divorced...and quite frankly, we're both sick about it, and miss each other passionately. We have a wonderful son in college whom we love deeply, and we've always been full-time dedicated parents. I motivated the divorce, and stayed with it because I just didn't trust her, nor she I. Our sex life has gotten better and better as we've gotten older, and we're very compatible in this regard.

I always had some suspicions that my wife was/is bi-sexual. She's an amazingly gorgeous woman, and has never hurt for attention from either gender...and yes, it would make me jealous. Anyway, like any marriage we've had our ups and downs and a couple of divorce near-falls in the past. I have asked her a few times if she was bisexual, and she always vehemently denied it, and tried to frame the discussion as I was just being insecure. About 10 yrs. ago we were out w/ a group of people, and this one attractive female colleague of hers (not knowing I could see what was going on peripherally) stroked her own arm softly and looked at my wife and said coyly "I need some soft love tonight.." Well, shortly thereafter the wife asks me if she can go to another bar w/ her co-workers since I "looked so tired...I can stay at ****'s place..." I nonchalantly replied " Sure..." Inside I was a tempest of emotions.

Well, fast forward 10 yrs. to one of our pre-divorce nukefests, and in a snit I bring this up...and she totally denies it. And while I love her, this woman can prevaricate so convincingly, w/ no hint of a tell whatsoever. She then accuses me of being paranoid and sick. Given her proclivity for lying so well...yup, I did it...I put monitoring software on our computer that I can check from work.

The dilemma is this...we love each other deeply, and are both miserable w/o each other...and she has said she wants to get back together and grow old w/ me. And I would like this...however I have HUGE trust issues, and know that sans INTENSIVE joint counseling, and complete transperancy w/ one another...we'll never be able to get beyond the past. As I've pondered whether or not to reignite communication towards this end I have re-investigated her life...and again...please don't judge me for this.

She is currently trading text w/ a woman in a marital relationship w/ another woman. She keeps using another friends name as a "beard" to cover her tracks. She was ostensibly going to attend this other woman's holiday party, last weekend but was sick, and then last night she was again supposed to go to a party w/ her beard. An exchange of texts indicates otherwise. I think my ex-wife sincerely wants us to work out, and is torn between her bisexuality and staying w/ me in a marital relationship....especially in lieu of how I addressed it last Spring...didn't exactly create an environment conducive to unmitigated sharing.

I really want us to have a genuinely open and honest relationship w/ each other..truly. One where she doesn't have to lie to cover up who she really is, and thus where I don't feel compelled to go CIA spy on her...cuz actually, it turns my stomach that I've digressed to such a level. First, if she wants to be w/ another woman, I just want to know how to get my mind around it, and embrace who she really is...I want her to be happy. And, we are both SO unhappy apart from each other. I want to create an environment where she feels both safe and accepted for who she is...and candidly, wouldn't matter to me if she was bisexual or polyamorous...as long as the truth is out there, and the deceit is put to bed (pardon the pun)....it's the lying that just uncorks me. I want us to be able to level w/ each other, and craft rules for the future in regards to this issue...if we can.

We are planning to start some deep dialog's, and get into both couples and individual counseling as we really want things to work out for us...I'm so hurt and lost over the demise of our marriage, as is she....What to do? How the hell do I breech this subject again, and peel away the onion like layers of obfuscation and deceit? What a miserable mess and predicament....anyone been here? Any advise? Be kind, we're in a lot of hurt...thanks much!

Etienne

[keefer201]

I can see you sitting in front of Dr. Phil and him looking at you like you were some kind of dummy. No offense meant as you seem to be a very intelligent and intuitive man. You state that you have given her the freedom to live a life as she would see it, but yet she refuses to admit to you that 1) she is bi and 2) that she has acted on it and more than likely not just once. I am a firm advocate of therapy but it is not a cure to anything unless BOTH are willing to be extremely honest; and there lies the dilemma for you. If she is not being honest to you, you can rest assured she will be just as dishonest with the therapist and from experience, you can expect another nuclear argufest. Back to what I said in the first sentance; it might appear that your willingness to appease her intersts is based more on a fear of your own unknown of life by yourself. I don't blame you for installing the keylogger, as only a fool would suffer a liar, but 25 years with the same person and then being on your own is a bit unnerving. As it stands now, you are dealing with a pathological liar....it may suck to hear that, but it is what it is. Word to the wise also; don't ever tell her that you installed the logging software on her computer, if you savor your testicles.

[FunE1]

Etienne,

I'm sorry that you're having to go through this. I discovered my (now ex-) wife was having an affair in late 2008. It was gut wrenching and involved a few more months of attempts to repair the marriage only to discover that she was still involved with her lover, at which point we decided that it was better to part.

What stands out to me in your recounting of your situation is the fact that, while you both appear to want to get back together, she continues to be dishonest with you about her involvement with someone else.

I'm not clear as to whether you're living together, despite being exes, or how you're able to keep tabs on her, but my advice would be simply tell her what you want and what you are and are not willing to tolerate in any future relationship, e.g., "I love you. I'd like us to be together... even if that means creating a relationship where you can [have sex with other people, women only, whatever you decide, etc.] but in an open and honest manner where I know who/where/when/what you are doing..."

Then she can either say yes, no, or renegotiate. At least you'll have a jumping off point for discussion.

While you're getting to that, I'd encourage you to really focus on taking care of yourself right now, rather than on what she's doing and with whom. It's tough, I know, but it's far more rewarding to do things that give you joy right now than to look to her to do so. Go take an evening class, go out with friends, buy a gym membership and start working out... whatever you can do to stop the hyperfocus on the strained relationship. You'll feel better and may discover that some of what you've thought about your relationship to this point actually starts to change.

If your ex says that she too would like a relationship, then please, please, continue on and GET COUNSELING. Yes, it sucks and yes, it involves dealing with a lot of ugly stuff, but it helps you both navigate the trust issues in a much safer manner.

I hope this works out as you would like it, too. But in case it doesn't, please know that you'll survive that, too.

jim

[mikey3000]

Etienne

I see that she does lie to you about her sexuality, and I also see why. Your jealousy. Why does she need intensive councelling? Until you can overcome that, then I think it's best you both stay as you are.

Jealousy is a secondary emotion, and once you discover why you are so jealous (as I'm sure it has been a constant problem all throughout your marriage), then you can tackle the real problem.

Oh, and BTW, together with my wife for 24 years, so I do have a little experience.

Cheers and best of luck.

[falcondfw]

I agree with Keefer on this one. Counseling will only help if the party being counseled wants to be helped.
If she is such a good liar to you, most likely, she will be to the therapist.
I had a similar situation where I ended a 4 year relationship one year ago. She was beautiful, sweet, funny, kind, intelligent, and extremely supportive. Everything a guy could want. Only problem was, she was a good liar and knew it. I didn't know when she was telling the truth and when not. I broke off the engagement, because your spouse is supposed to be someone you can trust to back you up in anything. I couldn't even trust her to tell the truth about what she had for breakfast. Love requires honesty and trust as two of it's main components, in order to grow. Totally by chance, I met the woman of my dreams about 2 weeks after I ended things with my fiance. I was not looking, but this relationship is amazing.
It is very difficult at first, when you make the decision. You keep second guessing yourself. "What if I was wrong about x?".
I would suggest you talk to her honestly. Tell her what you want and what you will and will not put up with. Then it is up to her.
One thing I would suggest is that YOU get counseling, by yourself, for the jealousy issue. Jealousy is usually caused by insecurities or a lack of self-confidence, from what I have seen. If you didn't become a jealous person until well into your marriage, then I can see what might cause you to be insecure (spouse lying). If you have always been a jealous person, then I think you have some work to do on yourself, before getting back together with her has a chance of working.
Whatever happens, I wish you the best of luck.

[Gearbox]

Is that your best 'evidence' that she's bi and a cheat?:eek:

[elian]

I suppose there seems to be clear evidence through these texts that she is bi and seeing another woman? Since you went over to s****'s house how do you KNOW that she did anything with this other coworker? You don't, but you suspect.

If you intend to remain jealous then you might as well continue splitting up as that may be the healthiest thing you can do.. Allowing her the freedom to be bisexual doesn't mean she gets a license to walk all over you, but it does mean that you may have to share her, maybe with the understanding that at night when she comes home she still loves you most of all.

I dislike "love triangles" unless everyone knows about it and is okay with it, sex to me isn't about "sneaking around" although I know it does happen.

Without talking to a counselor I don't know if I would go any further, or that I could offer any decent advice.

[bityme]

Etienneman,

I know that this is not what you want to hear, but:

Since Washington has No-Fault Divorce, I am assuming that her sexuality and your going CIA spy on her were never issues that were never resolved in the divorce proceedings. Had those issues been addressed, the Court would probably have responded by saying her sexuality was immaterial since the marriage was being terminated and she was free to live her life as she saw fit. On the other hand, the response to your investigative antics would probably have been the issuance of a Court Order prohibiting you from any further intrusion into her private life under penalty of being held in Contempt of Court for any violation of the order. If, in fact, an attorney who failed to seek such an order represented her, the attorney should be sued for malpractice.

Your post indicates that over a period in excess of 10 years, you believed your wife to be bisexual and to have had one or more liaisons with other women. You are now taking the position that “if she wants to be w/ another woman, I just want to know how to get my mind around it, and embrace who she really is...I want her to be happy.”

You say that you “want to create an environment where she feels both safe and accepted for who she is...and candidly, wouldn't matter to me if she was bisexual or polyamorous...as long as the truth is out there, and the deceit is put to bed (pardon the pun)....it's the lying that just uncorks me.” You state you want to have things work out where you are “able to level w/ each other, and craft rules for the future in regards to this issue...if we can.”

If you are being truthful with yourself and you really don’t care about her sexuality, there is certainly an easy solution, no counseling required at all. A remarriage means the opportunity to establish a new commitment to each other. It’s easy to craft new rules. One possibility is: 1) She admits she is bisexual, 2) You allow her to continue her satisfaction of her bisexual desires, 3) She either informs you about what she is doing, providing appropriate details or just the fact that she will be gone for a while to satisfy her needs, and 4) You agree to never again investigate her actions in any manner, ever again. Problem solved!!

Unfortunately, I don’t see that working for you. You indicate that she is a gorgeous woman and her receiving attention from anyone of either gender made you jealous.

Having practiced domestic and marital law for over 20 years, I get the impression that during the course of your marriage you were probably very controlling. Fueled you your jealousy, justified or not, you took many actions resulted in your wife being very careful about what she said and did because of her fear of your possible reaction.

If she was actually having outside sexual liaisons, she probably became quite adept at hiding them to avoid the possibility of your jealous rage. However, I’m not convinced of either her bisexuality or her violation of her marital commitment. The only so-called “proof” you state is something that you saw only “peripherally,” yet you recall the words exchanged in the conversation and that was 10 years before you filed for divorce. The statement by the female colleague could easily be interpreted as her having some kind of emotional problem that prompted her to seek a trusted friend that could provide her with a shoulder to cry on and advice on how she should handle her problem. Such circumstances are very common among female friends.

You give no indication of what prompted the “couple of divorce near-falls in the past” or your “pre-divorce nukefests.” You don’t relate any of them to any instances of claimed infidelity except that during one you brought up the incident from 10 years before.

I realize that my comments may amount to speculation on my part, but my experience and my 6th sense about marital turmoil leave me with the impression that your jealousy and difficulty in handling anyone’s attention toward your wife constituted a major problem within you marriage. My suggestion would be that before any attempt at reconciliation, you obtain some individual counseling to gain greater insight to and means of controlling the jealousy. Accomplishing that might provide you with a better understanding of the dynamics that were present during your marriage, the true reasons for the final break-up, and a new perspective on your future with or without your former wife.

In the meantime, stop the Sherlock Holmes conduct and continuing questioning of her every move. Having obtained the divorce you asked for, you have neither the legal nor moral right to any information about her absent her voluntary disclosure.

Pappy

[Etienneman]

Wow! Great responses....intelligent, thoughtful, and most importantly...honest. First off there's no getting around the fact that my jealousies played a part in the collapse of our union...I accept this. And indeed, I AM currently working on it in Counseling. And the Ex is working on her stuff as well. We talk almost everyday and are genuinely attempting to work towards a better, healthier us w/o expectation or assumption of a conclusion, so much as being right for each other as we watch our wonderful transition into adulthood, and hopefully to the point where he has his own family. I think you guys make so compelling points...and truly, thanks for taking the time to lend me your feedback...I really appreciate it. Again...thanks!

[BiCplAz]

All I can say is GROW FUCKING UP! Either live with the relationship or get out of it but stop crying. U might have a lot of fun with the two of them. My wife did with a guy id been having sex with for 10 or more years before we met. Enjoy life for Christ sake, that's what being bi is all about.

[keefer201]

All I can say is GROW FUCKING UP! Either live with the relationship or get out of it but stop crying. U might have a lot of fun with the two of them. My wife did with a guy id been having sex with for 10 or more years before we met. Enjoy life for Christ sake, that's what being bi is all about.

That was totally uncalled for. If you can't express yourself in a kinder fashion, then please, refrain from expressing yourself. :eek:

[BiCplAz]

That was totally uncalled for. If you can't express yourself in a kinder fashion, then please, refrain from expressing yourself. :eek:

Ok sweetie But u can be a man even if u like other men. Remember the line from "A few good men" "You can't handle the truth".

[falcondfw]

Ok sweetie But u can be a man even if u like other men. Remember the line from "A few good men" "You can't handle the truth".

A "man" respects others and doesn't need to swear to get his points across.

[BiCplAz]

A "man" respects others and doesn't need to swear to get his points across.

It got it across tho didn't it:-)

[Long Duck Dong]

sitting here and reading things, I get the feeling that the ex wife would be ok with a seperate sexual life.... she may well be bisexual, but she didn't want it to become part of the marriage, as she may have felt that there would be the expectation of threesomes and that is not something that interests her or her *friends *

there are times that a person can lie to protect themselves if they are pressured to go into details about something that they are not ready or able to talk or share about..... its unfortunate that a person can feel that they need to do that.... but it is a aspect of relationships for some people..... they feel unable to disclose aspects about themselves......

what makes that interesting is that they do not feel that they are unable to seek the company of others..... just that they are unable to be truthful about it......

a good way of dealing with issues, is to let your ex wife know how you feel and where you stand on things... do not ask her to go into details, but use something * friendly * like if she wants to spend time with friends, you can understand that... but you get the impression that its more than friendships and that she may be intimate with others and you have found that hard....

sometimes its easier not to know the truth.... but to get to a point where we assume what is going on without knowing any details.......

honestly, if she is bi, is coming out about it, for your benefit or hers ????

[elian]

Since he doesn't OWN her as property I'm sure whose benefit it is. A lot of guys might see it initially as a nice fantasy to have a wife who likes ladies but (and this may SOUND hurtful but it's not intended to be) like you said LDD she may not want his participation in that aspect of her life..she may be ashamed of it, may not be - can't tell without her side of the story.

He may or may not be feeling insecure about it, only time or the people would tell if the relationship is strong enough such that she would love him more than the others. If that's something he's not willing to honestly acknowledge and work through maybe it is best to part ways.

I wouldn't ASSUME that she was intentionally trying to hurt him..but again it's not my situation.

Honest, non threatening communication that doesn't put BLAME on the other person would be a start but he just got out of a relationship that apparently had enough rough patches to cause the threat of divorce more than once..it may be better just to remain "friends" so that each person has a little of their own personal space.

Jealousy is a part of life, before you try to love other people, learn to love yourself first. When you have true compassion for yourself and others THEN you can learn to love other people in a healthy way. Other people may choose to share a part of who they are with you but you don't OWN that, it is a gift they have given. There is someone, somewhere that ALWAYS loves you - so don't go around thinking that somehow you've got to guard against "running out" of love..it's ALWAYS there - if you think of it in the right way.

I don't know, just some thoughts. I'm not really qualified to answer the question.

[DuckiesDarling]

Trust is a two way street, you don't trust her have you tried getting her to trust you?

[tenni]

hmm
Where are all the "cheater" screamers? :bigrin:

What's good for the goose doesn't seem to be good for the gander?

[DuckiesDarling]

hmm
Where are all the "cheater" screamers? :bigrin:

What's good for the goose doesn't seem to be good for the gander?

Who's cheating, Tenni, they are divorced now and nothing but suspicions before.......... perhaps reading lessons are in order.

[tenni]

Suspicions seem to suffice on this site if it is a man that is a suspected "cheater".

Reading skills ...lovely insult darling. personal attack much?

[Long Duck Dong]

Suspicions seem to suffice on this site if it is a man that is a suspected "cheater".

Reading skills ...lovely insult darling. personal attack much?

people that are called cheaters in the site, state that they are cheating and why they are doing it..... so the reason why they would be called cheaters would be rather obvious, one would assume......

I tend to recall a thread where a female admitted to * investigating further * in her BF's activities... and the way she was told that she was being nosy and out of line as what the other person did, was none of her business....

if it waddles like a duck and it quacks like a duck.... only a fool would call it a canadian goose...

[discreetdavid]

This is just my opinion. I think that you and your ex-wife should sit down and talk. Even if you are not sure that your wife or ex has spent time with another woman, as she has told you, she loves you and wants to grow old with you.
That would be enough for me.

Sometimes in life, we are better off not knowing everything that has taken place in the life of those we love. It's not like your wife is a gambler at casinos and her addiction could leave you homeless. Your wife or ex, wants to keep part of her life to herself and might even be worried that if she does tell you that she has an eye for women too, that you might think less of her.

I think you have acted maturely. You are just someone who wants to know where you would stand in your relationship with your ex if you got back together again. I wouldn't push the issue up front, I'd pamper that woman you love and someday she might feel as though it is time to tell you the truth. Give her time. Be patient as you have been to date. Love her for she is the woman you fell in love with from the beginning. When you really think about it, you married her originally because you accepted her for the person she was and still is. Tell her you love her, and that you are willing to once again, accept her for the person she is. None of us are perfect. That's what makes us human. You are on the right track, tell her, and show her with flowers if she likes flowers that you still love her and ready to accept her back into your life and don't look so closely, respect her wishes. Invite her to have dinner with you on Christmas or New Years Eve, and let her know you are accepting of her as you were when you first asked her to marry you. discreetdavid

[BiDaveDtown]

She's your ex wife and you are her ex husband, both of you need to move on.

You wrote about how you both can't trust each other and how she cheated on you and then lied about it, so getting back together is not going to help things.

If you knew you were going to get mad or not trust her at all and that she was going to cheat on you with that woman and then lie about it, why did you let her go with that woman?

Instead of getting together with your ex-wife who you don't trust at all, who you think cheated on you and who you're into spying on, go out and date other men or women instead.