Sexuality & Choice

[Contee]

Hello friends,

I have a question for you all.

I was wondering, to what extent do you think your will is involved in determining your sexuality?

Can you choose your sexuality?

[oldcalhippie]

I guess if Id never been with another man I never would have known that I liked it. Theres some kind of choice in there

[arana]

Hello friends,

I have a question for you all.

I was wondering, to what extent do you think your will is involved in determining your sexuality?

Can you choose your sexuality?
There are some that will go with a fad and live a bi-sexual/homosexual lifestyle even though they weren't born with the natural attraction for same sex relations. I think these are acceptions to the rule. I don't think you "choose" your sexuality that's within you. It comes natural, just like any other personal tastes you may have. You do, however, choose to follow that desire or not. Some choose not to follow their hearts because of society, religion and so on. Like a food you dispise, you may choose to eat it because it's healthy for you, may even learn to like it or at least tollerate it, but it's still not what you crave. After that comes the individual personalities and how they process the choices they've made. Some are content to do without, some sneak a snack when no one is looking, and others are eaten alive by it.
Just my view of this subject.

[Michael623]

Human beings create their experiences by the activity of their thinking. Everything in the manifest realm has its beginning in thought. So, yes. I do think I wanted to be bisexual.

[Lorcan]

I think i was born bi. I knew at a quite early age. My "will" is to express both sides of it. I could pretend to be straight or lesbian... i guess i could pretend hard enough to convince myself if willed it.

[NightHawk]

I am inclined to think that there is a spectrum of biochemistries in people. Some are pretty much hardwired to be heterosexual. Some are pretty much hardwired to be homosexual. Some have sufficiently intermediate biochemistries that they can feel sexual attraction to members of both sexes. Superimposed on these biochemical predilections are our experiences and the effects of our thinking. For instance, a good fanatasy need not be acted on, but it may be a powerful stimulant to overcome further barriers to thinking about having sex with members of the same sex. It also may help greatly to convince you to overcome the barriers to being bisexual.

Those who are hardwired have little choice, but those who are not can exercise considerable choice in how they choose to act. They may also, having initially followed convention, be slow to realize that they are actually bisexual. It seems many bisexuals are discovering their bisexuality well into life. You might say that those who have the freedom to choose without violating their nature are by nature bisexual. On the other hand, you might require them to actually acknowledge that they are attracted to people of the same sex or even that they have experience as lovers. So, whether bisexuals have the freedom to choose or not depends on what condition you acknowledge as bisexual.

[orpheus_lost]

I think this is an impossible question to really answer all that well but I'll throw in my humble opinion.

Some people seem to have set desires towards one sex or the other, some seem to have set desires towards both sexes to one degree or another, and some (myself included) seem to sway from preferring one sex to the other and back again as time passes. I don't really think we choose our sexuality at all. It's something that lies within our chemical makeup and we have no control over it.

From what I've seen in life denying your true sexuality or repressing your basic needs too long tends to have disturbing effects. I think that's why you read about so many religious leaders caught in sexually compromising positions. And don't even get me started on the whole "ex-gay" B.S.

Of course, I've also known "straight" guys who would sleep with gay men for money or other benefits, but they always seemed to feel that was more of a business arrangement versus sexual preference.

I guess in the end, we have no control over our sexual preference but do have some control over our sexual activity. Subverting what nature has chosen for us, however is a dangerous game.

[innaminka]

to what extent do you think your will is involved in determining your sexuality?

Can you choose your sexuality?

IMHO - no!

I did not choose to be bisexual. There are many reasons why life would be far simpler if I was not.

I have no idea where the desire/ability/passion??? to make love with and in fact love women came from.

The first time - it was as if a switch that had been present since birth was flicked. "This is right by me. It is something that I want/need to do."

Sometimes, as I said, maybe it would have been easier if the "switch" had never been flicked. But it was and I believe I am a more complete person.

[Sparks]

As previously stated, my bisexuality is not by choice. God granted me a gift. Although my preference is towards women, He also gave me peace of mind. I could never fall in love a man. But He's given me the giift of being able to share. Be it str8, bi, or gay. . .that's what it's all about. Sharing one's life:2cents:

[KatieBi]

To what extent does will play a role in determining my sexuality?

I think it depends on how you define what sexuality/bisexuality is. I'll repeat what others have said in stating my opinion - I think "will" can play a role in determining what sexual urges we choose to act upon ... ie our behavior. But I don't think will (no matter how strong or weak) has any ability to determine what urges we have to begin with. In other words, I think most are able to "will themselves" to engage (or not engage) in sexual relations that don't reflect their actual sexual urges, but that doesn't change or affect the urges they actually have.

I mean, if I had :2cents: for every time I'd willed (wished) myself just be str8 or gay instead of this "confusing" in-between, I'd be a millionaire!

[JohnnyV]

I'll agree with a bunch of the previous posts.... You don't choose your urges. BUT your urges are a very small part of what becomes your sex life. You make a lot of choices. And yes, over time, your life choices can push your urges in one or the other direction. Suppressing an urge too much can make it rear its head with a vengeance. Indulging an urge too much can make you so accustomed to that behavior that you forget about other possibilities.

When I got drunk when I was a kid, my mother "cured" me of alcohol by telling me to drink an entire bottle of whiskey. I got so sick they had to take me to the hospital to pump my stomach out. And to this day, I like rum and vodka, but I cannot even smell whiskey.

When I had my earliest experiences with men, I tried anal sex, but I had bad luck with the bottoms I paired up with. They hadn't cleaned themselves, they oozed all sorts of gunk, and they bled. My memory of pulling out and seeing my condom covered in mucus, shit, and blood is so powerful, I have never been able to have anal sex with a guy again. I cannot even keep an erection when a male partner wants me to fuck him; I also get ill and feel like I have to vomit, no matter how clean he is. I have no problem engaging in anal sex with women -- that has to be a psychological trauma at play, and NOT a genetic predisposition. Otherwise how is it that I can engage in oral sex with men and maintain an erection?

Lastly, there are many people who would rank 6 or 7 on the Kinsey scale who would never be able to have a gay sex life. The gay male lifestyle is highly selective in terms of appearance. I know some gay men who are only attracted to extremely attractive men, even though they are unattractive and overweight. For them, no matter what they do, their gay urges will only be a frustration. I have tried to encourage them to consider dating women, even if the relationships might not flower into sexual bliss.

So, I'm not one to put a lot of faith in a biological code or a genetic pattern. I think experience has a lot to do with it. And ultimately our will can shape our experience. I agree with what someone said above, that it's a mix of our biochemical reactivity, and the effects of our social experience. Ironically, it's the monosexual people -- the purely gay or straight folks -- who I think have been most shaped by experience rather than biology. To develop total indifference or antipathy toward one gender is more likely the effect of some psychological factor, I believe, than a gene or endocrine effect. Genes and hormones have no way of teaching us what the difference between male and female bodies is, especially because male and female bodies have so much variation.

Love,
J

[Rainahblue]

:2cents: To what extent is the real meat of the question for me. When I was a kid, afraid of my sexuality and more afraid of telling my family, I would've loved to have been able to force myself to be straight. As an adult, I can no more control my attractions than I could back then. I can however force myself to date in a way that's more sociable acceptable although I'd never be able to control my heart. What a bummer, I'd hate to live like that. :(

[his wife]

I doubt a person chooses their sexuality, just their sexual practices.

julie

[APMountianMan]

I doubt a person chooses their sexuality, just their sexual practices.

julie

Hear, hear! Well put!

:cool:

[citystyleguy]

pretty much in agreement with the postings here; we are what we are, and that is shaped or affects us by the active or reactive actions we choose. while very often in agreement with JV, i have some objections to the content below;

So, I'm not one to put a lot of faith in a biological code or a genetic pattern. I think experience has a lot to do with it. And ultimately our will can shape our experience. I agree with what someone said above, that it's a mix of our biochemical reactivity, and the effects of our social experience. Ironically, it's the monosexual people -- the purely gay or straight folks -- who I think have been most shaped by experience rather than biology. To develop total indifference or antipathy toward one gender is more likely the effect of some psychological factor, I believe, than a gene or endocrine effect. Genes and hormones have no way of teaching us what the difference between male and female bodies is, especially because male and female bodies have so much variation.

as to the biological/genetics, it very much affects the person we are; that's why we are what we are. the next statement that follows can alter or affect how we deal with the results we are dealt, but it comes down to what we are born to, each of us. to paraphrase what someone else said, wouldnt it have been much easier for all of us, if we were all created the same? but genetics/biology created us, as we are, and left us, so often all alone, to deal with all of the things life throws at us!

give someone a hug, tell them how much you love them, and do it for no reason at all!

citystyleguy

[PeterH]

Hi Contee,

what an excellent thread to have started, I liked the replies very much.
I agree that sexuality is not a choice, what you do with it is.

I very much liked Lorcan's statement about pretending to be straight. It was a wake-up call for me. I am still in the process of coming to grips with my attraction towards men. So thank you Lorcan for your thought-provoking reply.

PeterH

[JohnnyV]

pretty much in agreement with the postings here; we are what we are, and that is shaped or affects us by the active or reactive actions we choose. while very often in agreement with JV, i have some objections to the content below;


citystyleguy

Fortunately our different beliefs about the role of genes and experience don't lead to critically different prescriptions about sexuality. Whatever people see as the source of their desires, I agree with you that people should be given freedom to pursue what they want, and nobody has the right to cast judgment on or interfere with the sex lives of others.

It's just that as a principle, I believe in free will and I don't believe that biology ever has the upper hand against our ability to choose our actions. I've been accused by colleagues of favoring logic too much at the expense of emotion; maybe they're right. But I think that no matter how much passion we may feel by our nature, our minds are always capable of steering our actions, and in the end, our minds are also capable of forming us into the people we want to be. If someone wants to be gay, or bi, or straight, I do believe the person's making a choice -- and I respect whichever choice he or she makes. I don't believe an outside force made that choice for him or her, because to me that sounds like we're surrrendering our self-control and sexual autonomy to myths of a biological formula....

Love,
J

[citystyleguy]

Fortunately our different beliefs about the role of genes and experience don't lead to critically different prescriptions about sexuality. Whatever people see as the source of their desires, I agree with you that people should be given freedom to pursue what they want, and nobody has the right to cast judgment on or interfere with the sex lives of others.

It's just that as a principle, I believe in free will and I don't believe that biology ever has the upper hand against our ability to choose our actions. I've been accused by colleagues of favoring logic too much at the expense of emotion; maybe they're right. But I think that no matter how much passion we may feel by our nature, our minds are always capable of steering our actions, and in the end, our minds are also capable of forming us into the people we want to be. If someone wants to be gay, or bi, or straight, I do believe the person's making a choice -- and I respect whichever choice he or she makes. I don't believe an outside force made that choice for him or her, because to me that sounds like we're surrrendering our self-control and sexual autonomy to myths of a biological formula....

Love,
J

beautifully stated and much to consider; as to free will, you will have no argument from me, and as to the mind, well that is too often an individuals last hurdle, but vital to one's ability to take control.

however, where we go our separate paths, is when you say the "...surrending our self-control and sexual autonomy to myths of biological formula..."; mmmm, gotta say there is no surrender of anything but a simple fact of life that will always come into play, but can be accommadated within free will, self-control, and our minds.

i do not believe that gay, straight, bi are choices! hell, if that were the fact, then a great many people would have changed theirs for the sake of sanity and piece of mind; these are not lifestyles anymore than my eye color is. of course, one can change the outward appearence with colored contacts, but your eye color will always be what it is!

growing up in a small town, the then distant suburb of a growing city and metropolis, with a disticntly conformist community of white, upper middle class, ultra-conservative people was a personal hell; my sexual nature was confusing as hell for me, when i knew i liked guys (definite homo material in that town) so kept my thoughts/actions to myself, but then to add to that i still was as horny for a girlfriend and attracted to the beauty of the female, with as much passion. talk about confused! to survive without going crazy, i jumped into sports (swimming and water polo) in order to be around hunky, hard-muscled guys and share in all the male-on-male commarderie(sp?) that i could; tell me how hard (excuse the pun) do you think it was, when to stretch your muscles, your bud puts his arms around your body while you bend and stretch!!!! at the horny age of 16!!! AND THEN YOU GET TO DO IT TO HIM!!! PLUS THE OTHER GUYS AS WELL!!! and your argument says it is free will and mind control. i STRONGLY beg to differ!!

i knew then and there, that nothing was going to change my nature! it is a living part of me, and i would have to come to terms with the fact! but that is a story for later,

with love and hugs to a great guy!

[JohnnyV]

however, where we go our separate paths, is when you say the "...surrending our self-control and sexual autonomy to myths of biological formula..."; mmmm, gotta say there is no surrender of anything but a simple fact of life that will always come into play, but can be accommadated within free will, self-control, and our minds.

i do not believe that gay, straight, bi are choices! hell, if that were the fact, then a great many people would have changed theirs for the sake of sanity and piece of mind; these are not lifestyles anymore than my eye color is. of course, one can change the outward appearence with colored contacts, but your eye color will always be what it is!

with love and hugs to a great guy!


Maybe I can rephrase it a little differently without losing my general meaning. If someone buys blue contact lenses and puts them over his brown eyes, I would say that, while he is wearing blue contact lenses, he has blue eyes. When he takes the contact lenses off, he has brown eyes. For him, his eye color has become a choice.

As someone with a history of racial self-esteem problems, I have often dreamed of having blue eyes. I used to want blue eyes so badly it drove me crazy. But I have never, ever chosen to buy blue eye contact lenses, because I know it wouldn't sit right with me. I have enough self-awareness to know that my buying blue eye contact lenses would be a sign of my own insecurity -- so I choose to continue having brown eyes.

If someone in your town felt so horrible about being attracted to the same sex that he slept with women simply to avoid abuse, then I would say that during the period of his life when he is sleeping with women and not sleeping with men, he is straight. He wants to be straight, he has behaved in a way to make his own straightness possible -- obviously, it's important to him. I can't go picking around in his brain, second-guessing him, and paternalistically trying to tell him what he is or what he isn't. He says he's straight, so I have to take that at face value.

If a man likes to sleep with men but envisions a life for himself that involves marriage to a woman, then I will defer to the word he chooses to describe himself. I'm not going to tell him "no you can't be straight, because you're biologically programmed to like men, you are being dishonest...." If he decides that he's straight, then that's what he is. If later he changes his mind, then he will be something else.

In your case, it sounds like you made quite a different choice, a choice similar to mine in life. You chose to put your desires in action. You chose to be something other than straight, because you knew that as a straight person, you'd feel unhappy and unfulfilled. So in that sense, it was a choice.

My fear of stressing biology is partly based on the trends I've noticed in American culture. Because most people do seem to believe that there's an inner code determining people's sexuality, there is a widespread tendency for people to guess whether people around them are "really" what they say they are. "Maybe he's gay and just lying." "Maybe she only married him so her family wouldn't suspect she's a lesbian...." There is way too much second-guessing of people. The second-guessing is judgmental too; by inferring that others are not what they say the are, we inherently accuse them of dishonesty. None of that is healthy.

If we simply take everyone else's statements about themselves at face value and respect what they choose for themselves, I think we're all better off. Way, way, way too many gay men, for instance, have become consumed in gossipping about other men and accusing them of lying if they say they are straight or bisexual. Their gossip seems to rest on this belief in a gene or biological blueprint that everybody is controlled by.... In order to avoid that kind of snickering and bitterness, I simply view everyone's sexual identity as the identity they choose to enact. It gives them respect, and in return, I can ask for their respect.

And as I said a little earlier, I know many men for whom homosexual desire is simply impractical. They are not attractive enough to attract the men that they themselves desire. I've known men who have stayed in the gay scene for 25 years and never found a relationship that lasted more than 2 weeks. In that case, I think they need to make a choice so they don't waste another 25 years. Using their will, they need to adapt themselves to a kind of sex life that maybe isn't perfect, or what they wanted -- but something that can make them happy. If they say, "no, I can't change, this is my nature," then I suspect that they're giving up control over their lives, and becoming miserable in the process.

Some of what I've just said may still bother you, and that's okay. I respect your choices in life, even the choice to believe that your decisions have been determined by biology. I presume nothing; I have no plans to second-guess you or undermine your self-definition.

Love,
J

[BiBiologist]

Yes, Johnny, I believe first and foremost we should accept other's choices without question, but it also belittles their underlying feelings just to acknowledge their outward behavioral choice and assume they are happier than they would have been following their natural inclinations. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying we as humans do not have natural inclinations, but everything we are is a choice based on learned information and experience. I believe, as others have said, we make choices that take in that learning and experience, but in saying you can choose to change or not change your eye color with contacts, you have to acknowledge that being born with brown eyes was not a choice. We have to at least be open to the possibility that, the brain being a biological organ, that some of our behaviors, as well as our physical characteristics, have a biological root.

I think part of the problem for every person, whether gay, straight or bi, is that we can only really know our own feelings. It's hard enough for each of us as gays or bi's to come to a knowledge of ourselves, let alone trying to understand what is in someone else's heart and mind. I believe the basis for prejudice is that we each believe that others feel as we do, and especially if one is in the majority, as heterosexuals are, that group dominates public opinion in general. They as a group feel only attracted to the opposite sex, and have difficulty fathoming how gays or bi's can possibly have feelings toward people of their own sex. Heterosexuals (that is to say, not those who just behave heterosexually, but those who are a 1 on the Kinsey scale) just simply don't have those feelings.

I've seen in many threads where many of us bisexuals can't seem to fathom that there are so many people who don't just have some little bit of same-sex attraction. But the many studies that have been done bear out the estimates of somewhere between 10 and 20% of the population having some type of same-sex attraction, and that those other 80 or 90% don't. (I know there's another thread about this, but I'll get to that separately). If we "accuse" them of lying about their total lack of same-sex attraction, we are doing the same thing as they are in accusing all gays and bi's of choosing those lifestyles just to be rebellious, trendy, different, "sick", etc.

So Johnny, I'm wondering if you, because you fell in love with your wife and are happy in your heterosexual lifestyle, are assuming that we can all just make the choice to be in heterosexual lifestyles. That we can all fall in love with someone of the opposite sex if we choose to do so.

Well, I simply can't. With all the joy that society depicts in falling in love with a member of the opposite sex, why would I not be able to feel that? Why wouldn't I want to fall in love with a man and be happy? It's not a matter, for me, of repressing an urge for sex with women. I enjoy hetero sex and have found sexual satisfaction with men. I have found, in coming to terms with myself, that I can love men, but not be IN LOVE with them. I believe I would have no problem in repressing my urges to have sex with men, but continually denying myself a mutual loving relationship with women is what is making me miserable. I do it partly because I have taken marriage vows (though it was before I understood my sexuality) and that is a point of integrity for me, partly because breaking this relationship would cause pain for many people, and partly because of the lack of acceptance for alternative lifestyles in this society (I'd get ripped apart by the in-laws, my kids would suffer, etc.) But don't assume because I control that with my will that it makes me happy, or that I am giving up control of my life by acknowledging I have no control over falling in love with women!!! And there is nothing in my background or experience that would make me choose to fall in love with women. I have wished a billion times to be in love with my husband (and don't tell me I just haven't found the right man--I've met plenty and been around long enough to know that isn't true!)

So if you say it's totally a choice, then society has an argument that any same-sex behavior is "unnatural behavior," we can all choose to be straight, be happy, and forget all this nonsense! If free will is only granted to human beings (per the Bible), and animals only act on instinct (i.e., biologically programmed behavior) then why are there so many documented cases of homosexual acts among animals? Are they making a choice, or is it that, possibly, some humans, like some animals, have instinctive same-sex attractions?

[JohnnyV]

Yes, Johnny, I believe first and foremost we should accept other's choices without question, but it also belittles their underlying feelings just to acknowledge their outward behavioral choice and assume they are happier than they would have been following their natural inclinations. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying we as humans do not have natural inclinations, but everything we are is a choice based on learned information and experience. I believe, as others have said, we make choices that take in that learning and experience, but in saying you can choose to change or not change your eye color with contacts, you have to acknowledge that being born with brown eyes was not a choice. We have to at least be open to the possibility that, the brain being a biological organ, that some of our behaviors, as well as our physical characteristics, have a biological root.



Sam,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Let me break off after the paragraph above and clarify what I said earlier... Yes, I do believe there is a biological root. Men get erections and women's vaginas lubricate when they are turned on by something. That's clear and I could not deny it. We get butterflies in our stomach, our hearts palpitate, etc. There's a visceral reaction that lets us know that we are experiencing arousal. I did not choose to be born with brown eyes, nor did I choose to be born with the basic physical responses that I experience during arousal.

I believe everyone has the personal freedom, however, to identify himself or herself as he or she pleases, in the cause of his or her greater happiness. Sometimes you become happy by following the urges given you by nature, sometimes you become happy by *not* following them. For example, my friend who is gay but weighs 275 pounds insists that he can't have sex with other overweight men, because it's "in his nature" to want slim, young, muscular and good-looking youths. Okay, I take his statement at face value -- that's what his in-born urges are. But is he happier chasing after a relationship with someone slim, handsome, and young? No, he isn't.

He calls me from time to time (I hope he isn't reading this website!) and bawls his eyes out because (1) nobody he loves loves him, (2) he's broke from hiring hustlers to satisfy his needs, (3) some studly young trick dumped him after three dates, or (4) his studly young trick gained 30 pounds and now no longer looks the way he did at the beginning of the relationship.

My overweight friend really believes that this is his nature, and nothing can change him. I tell him -- why not date men your own age and size? No, he says, because he has to remain true to his urges. He quotes scientific studies reported in Maxim that show that the Greek masculine ideal is a result of evolution, because lean, young muscles were desirable for survival in hunting and gathering societies. That's why, he thinks, he will never be able to feel true desire for someone who looks like himself.

It sickens me that he -- and he is not the only gay male I know with a similar complex -- cannot break out of his pattern. He is NOT happy. He feels unloved because he IS unloved; nobody wants a long-term relationship with him because his desires are shallow and self-hating. He is lonely, and he is also surrounded by other lonely people -- other gay men who can't find partners, and female friends (I won't call them fag hags) who have trouble attracting desirable male mates.

I would like people to separate the issues facing the friend I describe above, from the homophobia of the Christian Right or the bullying of schoolyard assholes who call effeminate boys "faggot." What is he gaining by staying true to his genetic code, if indeed there is a genetic code? Why not settle down with one of his female friends whose company he likes, form a domestic pairing, and work through the sex with an open mind?

Probably you and I are both motivated by a fear of the extremes in sexual categorization. We can both see how people suffer from homophobic repression, as well as loneliness and self-hatred. Your personal experience leads you more to criticize the sexuality-as-choice model, but my personal experience would lead me more to criticize the sexuality-as-nature model. Let me explain below.

When I was in my late teens, my mother died and my father was nowhere around. I was a handsome young Latino male in the Bronx, with a nice body. My first girlfriend had dumped me, and I had flunked out of college. I was lost, confused, and feeling a million different emotions. I fell in with a group of gay men in the Bronx who gave me a place to live, got me back on my feet, and saved me from destitution -- all because they believed that I was gay.

They believed I was gay because they had a laundry list of "telltale signs" that they believed revealed some inner genetic code. They truly talked me into a dither, convincing me to interpret every little thing I felt through circular logic, to confirm that I was in fact gay. If I got turned on by a woman, it must have been my mind playing tricks on me, because they just "knew" I was gay.

They had fallen 100% for the ideology that said sexuality was inborn. They couldn't step back and realize that a lot of my behavior had come from my fear of being out on the street. They'd basically made my homosexuality a condition of their kindness, then used my homosexual behavior as evidence that my homosexuality was genetic, inside me, and they merely "revealed" or "discovered" it, thereby confirming the truth in their circular logic agian. They were certain that my attractions to my female were lies or things I was inventing in my head.... Their concept of a "gene" was so true to them that they had lost all grip on reality.

Now, I know very well that their scientific beliefs were crude shadows of the more complex models developed by biologists, but the fact is that their misguided ideology was only possible because of the prevalence of the commonplace belief that people are born gay or straight and have no choice.

It took my seven years to finally overcome my guilt-ridden sense of obligation to that group and say, "good bye, folks." I stopped spending so much time around them, got an apartment of my own, and started grad school -- I moved on and became somebody else. They still, to this day, say that my whole life is a farce, because they believe I am genetically gay and living a lie. Their commitment to believing that is so powerful that they respond to my continuing marriage with bitterness and criticism. I am still friends with all of them, because I love them and remember how they saved me. But I am able to understand for myself, that although they can be kind and generous, they subscribe to a biological ideology that is horrible, one that will no less save gays and lesbians from homophobia than will ever guarantee them love.

So you see, there has to be a middle ground, Sam. Whenever we resort to large biological models or theories, we are always reaching beyond our own lives and making judgment calls about the lives of others; the latter part is what worries me. The middle ground I reach is to say that yes, there are things we are born with, but no, we are not controlled by genetics or hormones. We have the ability to make choices.

Love,
J

[leizy]

My two-cents is that the middle ground is, at best, where this argument will end, at some point in the future. While as an existential humanist, I believe strongly in free will, I recognize as a scientist that the increasing data on our genetics and their influence on our behavior and choices is dramatic, and increases every day. However, those genes act within an environment, an environment molded and influenced by our choices.

I don't mind too much acknowledging the influence of genes - at a deeper philosophical level, one can also acknowledge that there is much evidence that reality is all an illusion, based upon quantum physics. Besides, if my parents give me grief, it's easy to say that the studies show male bisexuality has more to do with inherited genes, so Mom, Dad, it's your fault...

david

[BiBiologist]

Thanks david (I'm laughing). Unfortunately, my mom and dad are only too ready to take on the guilt. I know it makes them feel better to understand that they did not cause our orientations (my sister and I) by anything they did while raising us. They have been wonderful parents, and we're lucky to have them! Yes, middle ground is what we need, and I agree with your philosophy.

I think, Johnny, we differ in the degrees of control we each attribute to biology versus our own free will to choose. But I think that's aside from what you've explained. I'm sorry you had an experience where people told you what you were. You say you should just accept another's statement when they profess their own identity. You were upset when people told you that you were "inventing in your head" your feelings for your wife. But then you say your overweight friend has a "complex." You don't seem to believe someone when they say their feelings are so strong that they can't simply overcome them with a compromising choice; you don't believe them that a compromising choice won't make them any happier. Yes, we do have choices, but if there are those of us who (being normal in every other respect and not prone to depression) say we can't find fulfillment with the available choices, we are not inventing it in our heads.

[Biboz49]

Hello friends,

I have a question for you all.

I was wondering, to what extent do you think your will is involved in determining your sexuality?

Can you choose your sexuality?

In my case I was always very horny and aroused by almost any woman that came along lol! However I was attracted to guys sometimes but never really thought much of it. My upbringing taught me that I was hetero and so I just followed the usual path of always dating women and eventually getting married and having kids. Being attracted to guys at times just wasn't considered - and that was not by choice, I wasn't forcing myself to not think about being aroused by guys, I just never thought it was something that would happen. It wasn't until later in life I began to think about having sex with guys and enjoyed the sensations and thoughts. So I guess I would have to say that my "will" was never involved, it was just my lifestyle and my upbringing.

[BiBiologist]

I'm starting another thread--to see what people think about what people think about our choices :tongue: --let's change the world!

[citystyleguy]

a lot of VERY heavy discussion; i will have to come back to re-read and take in all that is said; however, rather than quote each other, i will sign off on the subject as;

i dont think we are as far apart as may seem (someone else in their posting said achieving middle ground); so in that light, it seems that what your understanding is, as biological predetermination will interfere with free thought, then this is unacceptable and offer various situations and/or conditions where this happens. in reviewing your discussions, and that of bibiologist, your examples are not so much the bio predetermine as it is an excuse for not freeing the mind. your overweight friends problem is not the weight but a mind that refuses reality; i can tell you that his weight is a cushion against a hurtful world, one that he has accepted not one that he was dealt. he then compounds this, by thinking like far too much of this world, that money buys anything you want. as to others who choose to live something they are not, well like your overweight friend, they deny reality, create false ones in the belief that it will shut out the world, wonder why they are plauged by all this ill wind and respond by building higher and higher walls (i.e. cushions, blinders, call them what you want), never accepting what they are and will be.

i think, all in all, that we will arrive at the same destination, but only by different paths. in short, i am what i am, only i can accept it and build on it, and them make it my own. for me, being bisexual, is not only having one's cake and eating it (pun not intended), but throughly enjoying it while those above are missing out on lifes joy!

now i am hungry for something sweet; wonder if i run to the store i will find what i want???!!!

now that we have solved biological predetermination and its interaction with free thought, lets try for world peace! :three:

[Contee]

Firstly, thankyou very much for your considered and honest replies. I am new here and it is a real thrill to get so many articulate and interesting responses.

I have been attracted to guys since I was at highschool, but remained quiet about it to all but a few trustworthy friends. It was not a source of any great anguish, perhaps because what I felt was lust rather than total infatuation.

Recently I have decided to explore my attraction to guys more openly. This has involved propositioning my housemate - who I have always had a quiet hunger for - and deliberately flirting with guys for the first time.

What interests me is that I feel I made a decision to let my 'gay' side flourish. Seeing Brokeback Mountain at the movies - with another guy I have always secretly wanted to have sex with - made me want to be with guys. How could you not after seeing the passionate, wild embrace of those two on the stairwell? A girl-friend of mine exclaimed that it even made her want to have man-to-man sex.

Listening to Rufus Wainwright also makes me want to have sex with men. If we are genetically programmed to be drawn to one sex or another, or both, I am sure Rufus has the power to change that. I am yet to test this theory, but I honestly believe his soaring, sadening, beautiful ballads could induce homoerotic cravings in the straightest of straight identifying men.

I also think it is important to underscore the importance of ideology in the way we perceive our sexuality. Quite aside from the physical desire I have for guys, I like the idea of being attracted to men. Or more accurately, of being attracted to people of both sex. I want to see myself and be seen by others as someone open to all kinds of human intimacy. That is an ideological position - and therefore a choice - that I am making.

The case for idealogically driven sexuality is perhaps most strongly put forward by lesbian feminists who believe that lesbianism is a position that women should be encouraged to make. Not suprisingly, those who take this position do not take kindly to biological models that do not accomodate deliberate sexuality.

I think I could will my fondness for guys back inside if I really wanted too (though I would have to delete Rufus from my iPod). But the wanting of men has become something important to me. And I think I am inclined to locate this wanting in my mind more than in my bones.

[BiBiologist]

Contee,
Your post is very well put! I believe that everyone makes a deliberate choice in their sexual behavior. It is obvious that we can choose to act or not to act on our attractions, and to choose our lifestyles regardless of our orientations. But we do all have orientations! I think most agree that there is an underlying biological root to that, in that we are not all born as clean slates and then decide when we are older to whom we want to be attracted. By attracted I mean feeling sexually and/or emotionally/romantically drawn to someone. As I have posted before, and others have posted similar ideas, that there are different facets to our sexuality, I think the two main facets being those two things, the purely sexual and the emotional/romantic. I believe the emotional/romantic attractions are much harder to choose against, especially over a whole lifetime. I am saying my e/r attractions are for women, and hard as I may try I can't choose to override those feelings and fall in love with a man. I ask that people believe me when I say I have no choice in that. I have behaved such that to outward appearances I am a happily married heterosexual. That was a choice, but that is not natural for me. It is often painful, and I want people to believe me when I say I've done everything I can to be happy in this marriage, including avoiding women! But then I have to leave the house once in a while and I need to have friends, and well, darn it, there I go falling in love. I am not like Johnny's overweight friend, and he's really not a good example to use to illustrate that someone should just "give up" their natural feelings and make another choice. I'm not talking about targeting a particular type, I'm talking about a person's whole orientation having an underlying biological root (some folks stronger than others) and that orientation not being a choice. If you have to choose to be celibate, or choose to live your whole life without ever sharing a mutual emotional, loving bond, which would you choose?

[NightHawk]

BiBiologist,

I certainly believe you. As you noted earlier, and I have elsewhere, we really only know ourselves, if we have worked very hard to do that. It is then natural to try to understand others in terms of what we know about ourself. But, people are exceedingly complex and distinguishable. We are individuals! Your writing is so intelligent and wise, that if you are not someone who knows herself, then I must be surprised. I know myself, and yet, I also know that many of the actions and self-described thoughts of others do not make sense to me. It does make sense that this is a manifestation of such things as the biochemical diversity of humans, the different life experiences, and a life-long chain of decisions and choices that we all make. What could be more complex and ultiimately make us so highly distinguishable?

In many ways, I understand JohnnyV's viewpoint. Being a very rational person and one who has tried to identify who I wanted to be since I was at least 5 years old, I know that I made many decisions that designed who I am. But, as a scientist, I observe the reality that most people find nuts healthy food, while some eat a nut and they die. I hear the testimony that some people are sexually attracted only to the same sex and others are attracted only to the opposite sex. Given the many differences in human beings, I am inclined to accept that many of these people know what they are talking about. I, on the other hand, find a sexual attraction to people of either sex, at least if I find them to be of good character, intelligent, and to have a good sense of life. Knowing that there are highly intelligent and introspective people like me, like you, and who are strict heterosexuals, I have to suspect that we start from different biological bases with respect to sexual attraction, as we might with respect to IQ, allergies, dominant muscle types, aural vs. visual learning abilities, and many other capabilities.

I wish you could have all the happiness you deserve. It is very sad that someone so good should not have more happiness. You do seem to cope with a very admirable courage and determination. You deserve to be surrounded by more people like yourself. I wish the same were true for me as well!

[BiBiologist]

Nighthawk,
You're a sweetheart! Thank you, and I wish the best for you too!
sam

[wildangel]

I don't believe there is a choice in feeling gay, bi, or straight. A gay man can't choose to be straight anymore than a straight man can choose to be gay. It's the choice of action that is free will. A straight man can choose to have sex with whomever he feels and vice-versa. It's not the act that makes him gay or straight. I believe a person may be gay although he never admits it to himself or anyone else.

[Contee]

My concern about genetically determined sexuality is that it denies that our sexuaity can change, and also negates any possibility of choice.

The frequency of same-sex activity in prisons and single sex schools suggests to me that a person's sexuality can shift according to the situation they find themselves in. What is happening in these situations?

I find it hard to believe that my genes know the difference between men and women. Hell, often I don't even know! Which makes me wonder, if our genes tell us whether we are attracted to men and / or women, do they also determine our attraction to transexuals?

[NightHawk]

BiBiologist,

As so clearly are you. Your reponse has made my day and I am feeling a very pleasant warmth in my heart.

Your lady friends and your children are very lucky to have you in their lives. I will be an appreciative reader of your comments here and I hope someday of some of your professional writings. I expect you will do well in your new writing career.

[NightHawk]

Contee,

The adaptability of people in prision, same sex schools, and in isolated, usually all male encampments to the available supply of potential sex partners does suggest that many people are capable more sexual flexibility than they are generally inclined to admit. The mind is our most powerful sexual organ and we can certainly become caught up in our imagination and fantasies, for instance. I see that most people have a complex interplay of factors determining their sexuality. Certainly, the lack of availability of the opposite sex or a sustained frustration in relationships with members of the opposite sex can play a very significant role.

In my own case, I believe a relative lack of any strong biochemical preference exists, as does some frustration with relationships with the opposite sex. The latter has produced an increasing awareness and interest in male sex. Without it, I might have remained entirely heterosexual and never even given any thought to attractions to males. Though, I will in all fairness say that my wife has provided sufficiently wonderful sex that I must give her great credit for awakening my sexuality in the first place. My frustration is mostly due to her inability to enjoy the pleasures of sex herself. A two-way street is much to be desired, since giving pleasure is as fun as receiving it.

[Contee]

Thankyou for your response NightHawk. You made a couple of comments that really resonated with me. I love the idea of the mind as our most powerful sexual organ. I was trying to remember that line at work today in a discussion I was having with someone.

I also agree with your view that frustration in relationships with members of the opposite sex can greatly influence someone's sexuality. My inability to engage in sexual relationships with girls has been a real source of frustration and disappointment for me, and it makes me want to give boys a try instead.

It must be difficult being in your position. Has it been a one-way street for a long while?

[BiBiologist]

I have seen a good parable on a PBS kids TV show. It's about two farmers, best friends, working in their adjacent fields with a path in between. A lady walks by on the path and says hello to each. I can't remember the names so I'll call them Ray and Guy. Ray comments what a lovely red hat the lady was wearing. Guy looks at his friend and says, "Yes, it was a lovely hat, but it was green." They fight all day about the color of the hat, until the lady walks by again, going back the other direction. Then Ray says, "I'm so sorry, my friend, you were right, the hat was green." Guy says, "Oh, no, it was you who were right, Ray, the hat was red." Finally, they realize that the hat was green on one side, and red on the other. So both Ray and Guy were right, each from their own perspective, but neither was right to think that the whole hat was one color. Not being able to see the other side of the hat, they made an assumption about it that turned out not to be true.

We all make inferences based on our own perspectives, our own feelings and experiences. I'm certainly guilty of that. I think that the hat story applies to this situation in that there are people who, based on their life's experiences or circumstances have chosen to be bisexual or gay/lesbian. And there are those who feel inside them that they have no choice in who they are attracted to. There are both kinds of people and we need to trust and accept each other's perspectives, and agree that we all need to be allowed to take the paths that feel most comfortable to each of us.

[NightHawk]

True and wise.

[NightHawk]

Contee,

To reply to your question about the one-way nature of sex with my wife, she feels virtually any caress as a tickle and she absolutely cannot stand being tickled. Her breasts since breastfeeding 3 children, are exclusively pain sensors. Since she lost her waistline in childbirth and gained weight, she lost the confidence of being a beauty. She resented this and since wants to make love only in complete darkness. It was once the case that simply looking at her undressed was about enough to make me come. She lost the sense of being desirable, despite my continued love. With that, she has largely lost her ability to enjoy sex herself. I find this very frustrating. It both makes me feel powerless to give her the pleasures I wish her to feel and it takes away from my own pleasure at times in our lovemaking. Of course, I could just be a bad lover, but the limited feedback as I have from others indicates that I am a pretty good lover. I really do enjoy giving my partner pleasure.

She is great at giving me pleasure otherwise in our sex. Her hands and her kisses thrill me almost anywhere she uses them. She can send a tingle up my spine simply by rubbing the palms of my hand, or by kissing my back, or caressing almost any area of skin. Now, I admit that I am easy to please, but she really does know a lot about how to please me. Unfortunately, she rarely does oral sex, however. She also would generally be happy to have sex about once every two weeks. I have to hold off being cranky after a week and sometimes as little as 3 or 4 days. Fortunately, I have pretty good self-control, but I would much rather not have to exercise it!

[strawberry8302]

It's just as much of a "choice" as it is a realization. Just like the previous people said, you cant choose your urges. If a girl is kissing and having sex with other girls, she has to say to herself at a point, "you know what? i think i'm bi." Especially if she still likes men. The "choosing" is only involved if you don't know what lifestyle to want to live, and you are not sure what being bi entails. If you "realize" that you are bi, then the choice comes at that point, "do i want to live a bi lifestyle or not?"