Straight Bigot Pretends to Be Gay for a Year, Writes Book

[Dapper_Fellow]

I came across a review of this upcoming book.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/06/09/in-a-new-book-a-straight-male-christian-fakes-coming-out-as-gay/


While I applaud somebody taking the time to evaluate their ethical standing, I wonder if pretending to be gay for a year is really the best way to overcome one's bigotry. I would suppose talking to gay people might be sufficient to overcome bigotry, or perhaps just the simple application of logic that yielded the "Golden Rule" in virtually all ancient cultures.

I also wonder exactly how this fellow pretended to be gay. If one is a bigot, they surely believe in negative stereotypes, and thus I must ask; are negative stereotypes what this guy used to base his behavior on when he pretended to be gay? I mean, how else does a bigoted straight guy pretend to be gay? How did this fellow inform himself to begin his ruse?

But these just lead to the ultimate question, of what it is to be gay. I am of the belief that saying that certain behaviors, music, interests, manners of dress, etc. make one gay is ridiculous. The music one listens to has no bearing on who they sleep with. For example, I have heard (multiple times) from gay guys that I'm not "gay enough" because I don't really listen to Lady Gaga. I kindly explain that I'm bi, and not gay, and that even if I were gay it would have no bearing on my musical taste.

I have met all kinds of gay people, and no two are alike (just like the rest of humanity), yet there persists these awful stereotypes about gay people, and in the case of this book it seems that these stereotypes are utilized to promote tolerance.Maybe it's just the Kantian Universalist in me, but I don't approve of a consequentialist approach to ethics, i.e. The ends (tolerance) does NOT justify the means (propagating stereotypes).

What are your thoughts on this upcoming book? I might read it just out of curiosity, I like seeing what bigots think, or rather don't think.

[Long Duck Dong]

walk a mile in my shoes then sit in judgment me......... well here is a guy that did it, he put himself in somebody elses shoes and walked for a year in them.....

I read the comments and saw some where people stated that it was a slap in the face for the legit gay people that have to deal with prejudice and bigotry.... and I immediately thought " Ok here is a guy walking in your shoes as best he can, and hes told he is wrong for that cos he is not legit gay " .... how else is the guy supposed to experience what it can be like for gay people ( christian and non christian ) ? is he supposed to go to gay groups and say I am a straight male christian that has a bigoted and biased view of how things are for you, so tell me how bad it is for you, without slamming me, my beliefs, my understanding, so I can better understand what you people have to deal with ? lol.... I can only imagine how fast he would be rubbished and told that he has no idea and that he is a judgmental PoS that is trying to be a hero.....

walking in the shoes of a person for a year, may not be the way to overcome bigotry but I am willing to bet my last dollar that the guy found out how many people are quick to assume things about you based on a word * gay * things like your lifestyle, your sexual lifestyle, etc. and saying you are gay, can bring up stereotypes of fem gays that prance around with limp wrists, or bear style guys that wear leather when having sex..... and * shock horror * having sex with other males....

the gay doesn't need to wear different clothes or date a gay guy or go to a lgbt bar in order to experience any issues, he only needs to say he is gay, to experience issues cos of the way that people assume things based around labels.... and he may well have just been a gay man coming out of the closet and learning about being gay, in the way that many bisexuals were not experienced bisexuals when they first used the label bisexual, cos for most of us, we have the attractions and desires of a bisexual, but not the experiences and understandings that can come from years of being a active bisexual......

sometimes the best way a bigot can see the impact of their actions and words, is to become the target of the bigots that they have shared their lives with for so long....and realised that bigotry and biased is a two way street and the LGBT community has our fair share of bigots... they are the ones that spent most of their time in the forums attacking other members constantly and calling them bigots, phobics, biased and anti LGBT....

[æonpax]

Back in the turbulent 6o's, a very controversial book came out called "Black Like Me" in which a white journalist, John Howard Griffin, disguised himself for six weeks and traveled down South to experience what it was like being black. The back lash he got from both racist white and blacks, was so severe, he had to move to Mexico for a few years...in fear for his life

History and mistakes have a way of repeating themselves insofar that Timothy Kurek, the author of this book, "Jesus In Drag", is already experiencing a back lash from both the Christian and LGBT communities. While I don't think this will include death threats, in a polarized society, anything is possible.

I intend on reading the book.

[Dapper_Fellow]

"the LGBT community has our fair share of bigots... they are the ones that spent most of their time in the forums attacking other members constantly and calling them bigots, phobics, biased and anti LGBT...." -Long Duck Dong

I'm not sure if that is some kind of dig on me or not, but if so, please allow me to justify my use of the word bigot by using the author's own words:

"Raised and educated in the heart of the Bible-belt, I didn’t look at certain groups of people as valid or respectable. Liberals, Jews, Muslims, Atheists, I was taught to convert them all. But there was one people group I looked down upon more than any other. For me the LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender) community represented the worst of what sin had to offer, and I treated it and them with extreme prejudice. I was a bully, a bigot, and a modern-day Pharisee."

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that these words express bigotry, and my use of the word bigot is thereby justified, because he self identifies as one.

I applaud his effort to enlighten himself, I just feel that pretending to be gay is a sensationalist way to sell books, rather than a practical means to achieve empathy. As for Long Duck Dong's hyperbolic talking point that:
" .... how else is the guy supposed to experience what it can be like for gay people ( christian and non christian ) ? is he supposed to go to gay groups and say I am a straight male christian that has a bigoted and biased view of how things are for you, so tell me how bad it is for you, without slamming me, my beliefs, my understanding, so I can better understand what you people have to deal with ? lol.... I can only imagine how fast he would be rubbished and told that he has no idea and that he is a judgmental PoS that is trying to be a hero..."

Well, he could have simply spoken with and (much emphasis here) listened to what his acquaintance had to say when she came out of the closet and was kicked out of her home. I doubt he would get treated like a "PoS" by an acquaintance in such dire straits.

I think this book will make for an interesting read. But given the author's admitted bias towards "Liberals, Jews, Muslims, Atheists...LGBT" does that mean that he will have to go into minstrel show mode as a Liberal, a Jew, a Muslim, an Atheist, a Transgendered Person, and a Bisexual person in order to gain empathy for them? Hence I find the "walk a mile in my shoes" approach is be better suited to being a thought experiment that engenders empathy, as opposed to a literal commandment. After all, saying that one should "walk a mile in their shoes" is merely a means to (re)discover the ethic of "Treat others as you wish to be treated". Not a huge leap of thought.

[void()]

I have great admiration for anyone picking up someone's moccasins not their own, breaking them in. That requires more courage and compassion than many of us can muster.

While it may not seem a 'great leap of thought', setting aside one's fears and biases is a difficult undertaking. Ergo, I find that courageous as defined by chief Red Cloud.

"Courage isn't about lacking fear, it's finding something more important than your fear and setting it (your fear) aside to achieve the important thing."

[Long Duck Dong]

"the LGBT community has our fair share of bigots... they are the ones that spent most of their time in the forums attacking other members constantly and calling them bigots, phobics, biased and anti LGBT...." -Long Duck Dong

I'm not sure if that is some kind of dig on me or not, but if so, please allow me to justify my use of the word bigot by using the author's own words:

"Raised and educated in the heart of the Bible-belt, I didn’t look at certain groups of people as valid or respectable. Liberals, Jews, Muslims, Atheists, I was taught to convert them all. But there was one people group I looked down upon more than any other. For me the LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender) community represented the worst of what sin had to offer, and I treated it and them with extreme prejudice. I was a bully, a bigot, and a modern-day Pharisee."

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that these words express bigotry, and my use of the word bigot is thereby justified, because he self identifies as one.

I applaud his effort to enlighten himself, I just feel that pretending to be gay is a sensationalist way to sell books, rather than a practical means to achieve empathy. As for Long Duck Dong's hyperbolic talking point that:
" .... how else is the guy supposed to experience what it can be like for gay people ( christian and non christian ) ? is he supposed to go to gay groups and say I am a straight male christian that has a bigoted and biased view of how things are for you, so tell me how bad it is for you, without slamming me, my beliefs, my understanding, so I can better understand what you people have to deal with ? lol.... I can only imagine how fast he would be rubbished and told that he has no idea and that he is a judgmental PoS that is trying to be a hero..."

Well, he could have simply spoken with and (much emphasis here) listened to what his acquaintance had to say when she came out of the closet and was kicked out of her home. I doubt he would get treated like a "PoS" by an acquaintance in such dire straits.

I think this book will make for an interesting read. But given the author's admitted bias towards "Liberals, Jews, Muslims, Atheists...LGBT" does that mean that he will have to go into minstrel show mode as a Liberal, a Jew, a Muslim, an Atheist, a Transgendered Person, and a Bisexual person in order to gain empathy for them? Hence I find the "walk a mile in my shoes" approach is be better suited to being a thought experiment that engenders empathy, as opposed to a literal commandment. After all, saying that one should "walk a mile in their shoes" is merely a means to (re)discover the ethic of "Treat others as you wish to be treated". Not a huge leap of thought.

no my remark was not aimed at you at all

my remark was more aimed at the people that have numerous posts in the site, rubbishing other LGBT members and calling them bigots, biased and phobic....and it makes no difference if their *target * is male or female, lesbian, bi, gay, hetero, trans etc etc, its always the same 3 words that they use to label people....

why do people talk to others that have shared similar experiences ??? cos they understand better...... so why try and teach somebody about something that they would never understand or gain a similar understanding ?..... maybe the guy did it the wrong way... but for one year, he got to share a experience that many people have... and that is to find out what it can be like to be shunned by people on both sides of the fence...

however, no matter what some people do, it will never be good enuf, it will never be right, no matter how much it changes a person for the better....and I think that is what this guy is going to realise or may have already realised.... he could change his whole life around and inspire others to be more accepting and tolerating, but some people will only see that he was not *gay * therefore anything he did or does, is wrong...... and that begs the question, who are the true bigots and biased? ....him or the people that are finding fault in what he did and not seeing how it changed him for the better....

[Gearbox]

I'm not really convinced that this was an attempt at empathy, but more of an attempt at writing a book.:bigrin:
Yes, call me suspicious, but I highly doubt that the year plan was not for that specific goal. And with that in mind, I wonder how efficient his empathy could be: It's just for a year, he's not really like that, he'll get a book at the end.:rolleyes:

How many gays get that kind of deal out of bigotry and persecution etc? What sweetens the bitter pill for them?
But anyways, it might be interesting to see how it goes.:)

[void()]

I'm not really convinced that this was an attempt at empathy, but more of an attempt at writing a book.:bigrin:
Yes, call me suspicious, but I highly doubt that the year plan was not for that specific goal. And with that in mind, I wonder how efficient his empathy could be: It's just for a year, he's not really like that, he'll get a book at the end.:rolleyes:

How many gays get that kind of deal out of bigotry and persecution etc? What sweetens the bitter pill for them?
But anyways, it might be interesting to see how it goes.:)

Even if the motive was to write a book, he still gained a taste of experience of what the object of his/his social group's bigotry face. I find it difficult to believe such an experience would not offer a positive impact upon at least teaching compassion.

Unfortunately, I cannot provide an answer to placation of adversities faced by LGBT folks. Education is often suggested. Think this guy got a bit. If he shares that experience in a book, others may also.

[æonpax]

I'm not really convinced that this was an attempt at empathy, but more of an attempt at writing a book.
Yes, call me suspicious, but I highly doubt that the year plan was not for that specific goal. And with that in mind, I wonder how efficient his empathy could be: It's just for a year, he's not really like that, he'll get a book at the end.

How many gays get that kind of deal out of bigotry and persecution etc? What sweetens the bitter pill for them?
But anyways, it might be interesting to see how it goes.


Consider this;

Yes he knew he was going to write a book for which he “might” make a profit. What’s the motivation if you can’t get compensated for your time and energy?

Upton Sinclair’s “The Jungle” was a scathing expose of the US meat packing industry and earned him money and respect. Do you think he wrote that book for truly altruistic reasons? Sinclair was a “muckraker” or in today’s terms, an Investigative Reporter.

The books, “Black Like Me” and “The Jungle” had both immediate and profound effects on our culture and one other factor they had in common; both books required the authors to be in the field, 24/7. That requires a hellofalot of personal commitment…and time…and money.

I haven’t read “Jesus In Drag” yet, so I cannot say if it hit an empathic chord in me. That will depend on how good of a writer he is.

What I am saying is that there are two aspects here; 1 – The actual nuts and bolts of gathering the information and, 2 – the ability to take that data and write it into a format that appeals to your target audience. My greatest fear is seeing a well researched topic, not getting the attention it screams for…..because it was poorly written.

Bottom line; Cut the guy some slack for at least trying.

[tenni]

Yes the book Black Like Me was an extremely significant sociological book and remember having it on one of my courses at uni even after the turmoil of social upheaval. It Was done by a journalist who was excellent at doxumenting andcontectualizing his experience. This brought to the forefront a lot of unknown factors that were not known at tha time.
This is A different era and although there are pockets of intolerance it is averydifferent world today.
I doubt that the new book will have anywhere near the impact. Time will tell.

[Gearbox]

@Void&Aeon- I'm not saying that the book won't be worthy, or that he'll not get insight even if his goal was purely fame&fortune, which I suspect it mostly was. Just my opinion.lol
What I'm saying is that I doubt he'd experience what it's REALLY like to suffer persecution for being YOU. More like being a patsy/fall guy, innocent of the 'crime' but taking the blame, for a while.
Sinclair was infiltrating, and Griffin could 'take the mask off' if things got too tough. Although I'm not dismissing a few miles walk in somebody else's shoes, I don't qualify that as the same experience as those who wear them for a lifetime.

But as it seems, he gets snubbed for being HIM, so I'll wait for that book too.:tongue:

[pepperjack]

Back in the turbulent 6o's, a very controversial book came out called "Black Like Me" in which a white journalist, John Howard Griffin, disguised himself for six weeks and traveled down South to experience what it was like being black. The back lash he got from both racist white and blacks, was so severe, he had to move to Mexico for a few years...in fear for his life

History and mistakes have a way of repeating themselves insofar that Timothy Kurek, the author of this book, "Jesus In Drag", is already experiencing a back lash from both the Christian and LGBT communities. While I don't think this will include death threats, in a polarized society, anything is possible.

I intend on reading the book.

Very interesting & coincidental to me. While reading the OP, the book,Black Like Me immediately came to mind! As a boy in the 60's, I was exposed to the Hollywood adaptation during previews at the local drive-in one night. I remember them as being very intense & melodramatic. I believe an actor by the name of Stuart Whitmore played the leading role. It made an impact on my young, impressionable mind and when I was 18, I happened to stumble upon a copy of the book in a library and decided to finally read it. One day, an older black man noticed it in my possession and asked me if it was a good book. I replied simply, " yes it is ." He didn't seem to have a problem with the book or with me.

[Long Duck Dong]

been reading a few of the articles about the writer and the book and there are a few things that come out that were not in the original posted article

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/jesus-in-drag-this-is-why-a-straight-christian-lived-as-a-gay-man-for-one-year/# has a interview with the author
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-elerick/jesus-in-drag-straight-christians-comes-out-for-book_b_1569051.html contains additional info

1) he didn't intend to write a book about his experiences....
2) he rejected his female friend for coming out as a lesbian
3) he found that * love the sinner, not the sin* was about as close as out right rejection as it could get and that it was difficult trying to talk to his own family about his experiences cos of what he was taught about homosexuality
4) he went to LGBT night clubs, joined a gay sports team and worked in a gay cafe......
5) he had a gay friend that stood in as a partner and mentor......
6) he was of the understanding that all homosexuals were sexual deviants and predators cos that was what he was taught
7) he had to dealt with being a closeted hetero guy and how hard it is on people to be closeted

the part that really stands out to me, is that the book is about his experiences, the good, the bad and the ugly and how its not a christian / gay bashing book but it does talk about his negative experiences from both sides of the fence.... and how just a change of label, turned him into a second class citizen....

can not help but notice in the comments on many of the articles I read.... people are continuing to rubbish him for what he did....so much for tolerance and understanding

[darkeyes]

Any who research a book, and this is certainly true of any who go out into the field for much of that research will have eyes opened and learn lessons. The longer the time in the field the more open the eyes and the greater the lessons learned.. the question about any such individual doing such research is how open did his eyes become, what did his eyes tell his mind, and the lessons learned by his field study... very much depends on his internal sense of justice and compassion, and while he may soften his attitudes and beliefs this may not be the case.. I think only time can tell that and what the book has to tell us.. that he will have changed in some way is unquestioned, but whether that change is for the better remains to be seen.. but based on what we know I do think to bash him when we don't have a clue as to the scope and thrust of his field education, save for a one or two hints, nor of his conclusions, I think that would be somewhat harsh...

..and most people write books to make money, some to make a point... some both as has been said.. nothing wrong with any of that in principle.. let's just see where he goes before it is decided to metaphorically hang draw and quarter him.. prejudging is never a good thing..

[æonpax]

@Void&Aeon- I'm not saying that the book won't be worthy, or that he'll not get insight even if his goal was purely fame&fortune, which I suspect it mostly was. Just my opinion.lol What I'm saying is that I doubt he'd experience what it's REALLY like to suffer persecution for being YOU. More like being a patsy/fall guy, innocent of the 'crime' but taking the blame, for a while. Sinclair was infiltrating, and Griffin could 'take the mask off' if things got too tough. Although I'm not dismissing a few miles walk in somebody else's shoes, I don't qualify that as the same experience as those who wear them for a lifetime. But as it seems, he gets snubbed for being HIM, so I'll wait for that book too.:tongue:

`
My attraction to this is both ideological but also technical. I've done investigative research and 95% of it involves interacting with people (far away from a computer) and/or spending weeks going through books, ledgers, hand written journals and boxes of paper, looking for something that may..or may not, exist. So I'll give credit where it is due, even if its intent is less than noble or it's outcome, disappointing to me.

I've spent my entire adult life working, living and personally interacting with blacks but would never dare to presume to claim to understand the mystique many blacks associate with their unique identity...but that's just semantics and after awhile those barriers become irrelevant, it's all just people. Breaking barriers which keep us apart is what's important.

True, enough, such deep investigative reporters can always come in from the cold, so to speak and it ends there. But their perspective is important. Life as a gay or bisexual, written by a gay or bisexual, just doesn't have the je ne se qua a paper written by someone who used to be hostile to homosexuals, may carry.

Only reading the book, once I get to it, will tell.

[Gearbox]

`
My attraction to this is both ideological but also technical. I've done investigative research and 95% of it involves interacting with people (far away from a computer) and/or spending weeks going through books, ledgers, hand written journals and boxes of paper, looking for something that may..or may not, exist. So I'll give credit where it is due, even if its intent is less than noble or it's outcome, disappointing to me.

I've spent my entire adult life working, living and personally interacting with blacks but would never dare to presume to claim to understand the mystique many blacks associate with their unique identity...but that's just semantics and after awhile those barriers become irrelevant, it's all just people. Breaking barriers which keep us apart is what's important.

True, enough, such deep investigative reporters can always come in from the cold, so to speak and it ends there. But their perspective is important. Life as a gay or bisexual, written by a gay or bisexual, just doesn't have the je ne se qua a paper written by someone who used to be hostile to homosexuals, may carry.

Only reading the book, once I get to it, will tell.
It is an interesting twist to put a 'blue peg' in a 'red hole', and have it's reaction to the change. Somehow it's more interesting than just asking a 'red peg' what it's like to be a 'red peg'.:bigrin:
It maybe that for the 'blue' all that is experienced is fresh and notable, where for the 'red' it's become un-notable and mundane. Also that turning somebody into their 'opposites'/'enemies', has a "Look at what you do!" quality about it, that gives a little curious satisfaction.
Hope he learned his lesson!lol

[darkeyes]

It is an interesting twist to put a 'blue peg' in a 'red hole', and have it's reaction to the change. Somehow it's more interesting than just asking a 'red peg' what it's like to be a 'red peg'.:bigrin:
It maybe that for the 'blue' all that is experienced is fresh and notable, where for the 'red' it's become un-notable and mundane. Also that turning somebody into their 'opposites'/'enemies', has a "Look at what you do!" quality about it, that gives a little curious satisfaction.
Hope he learned his lesson!lol
When I was 13 my bf and I went to Easter Road on derby day.. as a long standing pash Jambo even then, I knew Easter Road well and had often been there mostly with my dad and brother to watch us invariably hump Hibees on their own turf.. the difference was bf was not a Jambo... but one of them... and so Fran, always ready for a challenge accepted the dare to pop along with him and watch the game from the "enemy's" end... I knew Hibs fans, quite a lot of them, although in the part of town I lived far more were as me... Jam Tarts.. even the guys:tongue:... and I got on fine with these strange peeps too, but there was always something not quite right about them however much I liked them.. and so this was all new to me even if I did not share some of the religious bigotry which existed between many of the more extreme elements of the two sets of supporters..

Derby day games from the Hearts end is always fun.. good patter,great banter and a shared passion for the boys in Maroon.. unless we got stuffed that is. but in those days like now we do them over.more often than not.. I had never seen a Hibs fan in our end ever at Tynie or their place .. and don't know any of our lot who had dared go into the dangerous dark of enemy territory.... anyways, along goes lil scrawny Fran with big beefy Dan all decked in green wondering if I was going to get out alive... I wont say rape came into my mind it didn't, but I did expect a grope or dunt or two at the very least and a lot of verbals... so I was alil wary.. but a dare was a dare..

.. so there was me, scarf under me leather jacket well hid... being ver ver quiet about me loyalties... an wot did I find? They r pretty much like Jambos.. good fun, great banter and full of the most awful patter... they hate refs just the same.. slag off their own guys when they are playing crap and pretty much leave Jambos without a name just like we do them... and when they spotted the hint of maroon under me Jacket.. what did I find? Much mirth and good natured mickey taking and as the match went on, the Fran gob as it increased its pitch, didn't get 'er hung, raped.. groped or battered.. just laughed at and with, joked with and bf and I had a really good time and didn't have to buy me own Bovril and greasy pie at half time... the game was a draw.. honours shared.. we were robbed.. though they said quite the same thing..but they lied;).... and I had confirmed for me what me luffly ole dad an' grandad had always told me... we are a' Jock Tamson's bairns...:bigrin:

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Well I hope it opened his eyes and mind and let him see life from the other side of the street. I guess I'm going to have to get the book and see how he went about not having sex for all that time, too. How did he handle sexual situations? Just tell men that he 1. Had taken a vow of chastity for a year, 2. Told them he had a headache, or 3, just told people he doesnt play..?
I just hope it taught him the simple fact that gay man are just people all in the end. (No pun intended) and were human at the end of the day just like anybody else..:}
Cat

[Gearbox]

@Darkeyes- I fully expect that when you returned to your 'right side' you referred to your bf's as, "Those splendid chappies! Hurrah!"?:tongue:
Well, no!lol It's all in good fun mostly and it IS a good laugh when physical violence isn't involved.
I expect you had a rival school as a kid too? Well I did. They wore different uniforms, so that made them shit & wankers by default.lol Only rarely it would end in gang fighting, but the slurs were constant, as if it was a duty. It seems completely stupid, and it was! But it makes life more exiting. THAT says a lot about us as a species I think. Angels&Demons.:rolleyes:

@Cheroke - He had a gay friend pretend to be his bf. I pity HIM more. Hope it was an open relationship for his sake.lol

[darkeyes]

@Darkeyes- I fully expect that when you returned to your 'right side' you referred to your bf's as, "Those splendid chappies! Hurrah!"?:tongue:
Well, no!lol It's all in good fun mostly and it IS a good laugh when physical violence isn't involved.
I expect you had a rival school as a kid too? Well I did. They wore different uniforms, so that made them shit & wankers by default.lol Only rarely it would end in gang fighting, but the slurs were constant, as if it was a duty. It seems completely stupid, and it was! But it makes life more exiting. THAT says a lot about us as a species I think. Angels&Demons.l
Don't b daft Gear... it is true I formed a greater affinity to the bugger's and found them much like us.. but wen it comes to footie... they are and always will b referred 2 as "bloody Hibee garbage.."... spesh on derby day.. no hold's barred... but the minute it's over.. the bootgirls usually depart 2 the pub an meet wiv our Hibee m8's and have a gud time... 1 thing more important than footie.. is m8's....but footie is triff for windin' each other up!!!

..an yea we had a rival school.. they didn't go past 4th year and so we used to call them thickos and brain dead... they used to tail us an call is nobs!!! Wot cheek... me?? A nob indeed... summa them spoke rite common an' all.. tee hee... a few of them when it came 2 5th year, if they were bright enough and going on to take Highers had to find other schools, and a couple came into my class... took 1 look at one of them and thought "Jeez.. u.. u gett!!!!" For 2 years that bugger used to pull my hair, grab me tits, slap me arse, nick me bag, swear at me, call me names.. toward the end of me 4th year I had a wordie wiv me bruvva cos I really had had enough of this dick... Alex waylaid 'im, grabbed 'im an' had a "gentle" word in 'is lug'ole and advised 'im what would happen if he got just one more complaint from his lil sister bout 'im actin' like an arsehole.

Ne ways 2 cut a long story short.. me being on me home ground so to speak seemed to intimidate him... and for a few weeks he was as quiet as a lamb with me and nice as ninepence... one lunch time in the dinner hall he sat opposite me an I was on me own with him at the table for the first time... he was ver polite... I was ver polite...mutterin' under me breath "O ffs nooooo....go away....". ne ways we got chattin makin' small talk and I slowly started to warm to him.. so I asked him.. why was he such a sod over that 2 years? He was straight up, quick as a flash "We were the tyke's school.. u lot looked down ur noses at us and thought we were scum.. least that's how we saw it.. we saw u lot and u set our teeth on edge cos u really were a bunch of fucking arseholes. Now I find ur not really.. ur just like us. Well u are, but not near as nobby as I thought. I'm sorry I was a **** but u did act like u owned the world and wouldn't give us the time of day, so we hit u in any way we could dream up. U walked by looking down ur nose at me and my pals and I wasn't letting u away with it. So I decided to make ur life hell". Of course the word's he used aren't exact.. not after half a lifetime, but they are close enough rakin' through me memory.. ur question reminded me of it cos I havent thought of it in years... but as I learned at Easter Road and the footie, he learned when he changed schools that we weren't nearly as bad or as toffee nosed as he thought us... and he taught me a lesson too about thinking less of other people just because of their situation... don't get me wrong, we never became close friends but we did become friends..

I haven't seen the guy in a decade and more.. but a final tale about him... I was on the bus one day during our Highers making me way home.. from the top deck I looked out over The Meadows and saw him chasing a couple of guys from his old school with an "if looks could kill visage" on 'is chops.. next day I asked him why was he chasing them.. he growled and said "The wee ***** called me a fucking nob!!!" I roared in laughter... Angels and Demons indeed Gear.. and we are all a bit of both...

[Monster34]

Firstly, I'm floored that this guy even questioned his values to begin with. Secondly, it's one thing to ask questions, it's quite another to place yourself in the thick of it. Thirdly, once this "experiment" is over, his friends and family will never see him the same way again. Sure he will assure them that is was an act, but those people will never trust him the same way again. So there is a certain amount of risk to him. Most bigots would never even consider that they could be anything other than righteous. I am looking forward to reading his book.

[darkeyes]

Firstly, I'm floored that this guy even questioned his values to begin with. Secondly, it's one thing to ask questions, it's quite another to place yourself in the thick of it. Thirdly, once this "experiment" is over, his friends and family will never see him the same way again. Sure he will assure them that is was an act, but those people will never trust him the same way again. So there is a certain amount of risk to him. Most bigots would never even consider that they could be anything other than righteous. I am looking forward to reading his book.
In the days of Raj, when the old British Empire straddled the globe and the British thought they ruled the planet, many British people, men principally, went out to educate the barbarian, uncivilised,unchristian hoards, there was an expression .. "going native".. where many of these people, rather than educate and civilise the barbarian, unchristian hoards, were themselves seduced by the ways of their charges, and abandoned the life, and sometimes the belief's and ways they had been raised in, to become as much and often more protective and devoted to the ways of the barbarian than the barbarians themselves.. some lived and died in defence of these "less civilised" hoards, even warring against the very nation and Empire which spawned them and sacrificing their lives in the process...

[pepperjack]

In the days of Raj, when the old British Empire straddled the globe and the British thought they ruled the planet, many British people, men principally, went out to educate the barbarian, uncivilised,unchristian hoards, there was an expression .. "going native".. where many of these people, rather than educate and civilise the barbarian, unchristian hoards, were themselves seduced by the ways of their charges, and abandoned the life, and sometimes the belief's and ways they had been raised in, to become as much and often more protective and devoted to the ways of the barbarian than the barbarians themselves.. some lived and died in defence of these "less civilised" hoards, even warring against the very nation and Empire which spawned them and sacrificing their lives in the process...

Interesting,Dark. Maybe a variation of the Stockholm Syndrome within the human psyche, conqueror identifying with captive?

[darkeyes]

Don't know Pepper.. don't think so.. more like eyes being opened that Victoria's empire and Britain itself weren't all they were cracked up to be and that the peoples who had been crushed under foot were not the uncivilised barbarians they were made out to be... it continued after, but was not disapproved of until after the Mutiny when anyone who "went native" became an object of suspicion and derision and often persecuted by the colonial powers that be... the change in India from East India Company control to Imperial control and the Raj changed the whole ethos of tolerance towards the ways of India (and by extension the ret of the empire) to much less tolerance and more interference, control and oppression. the ways of the "gone native" has much to teach us about how to live among people in places where we are the stranger.. what happened after the Mutiny teaches us how not to...

[pepperjack]

Don't know Pepper.. don't think so.. more like eyes being opened that Victoria's empire and Britain itself weren't all they were cracked up to be and that the peoples who had been crushed under foot were not the uncivilised barbarians they were made out to be... it continued after, but was not disapproved of until after the Mutiny when anyone who "went native" became an object of suspicion and derision and often persecuted by the colonial powers that be... the change in India from East India Company control to Imperial control and the Raj changed the whole ethos of tolerance towards the ways of India (and by extension the ret of the empire) to much less tolerance and more interference, control and oppression. the ways of the "gone native" has much to teach us about how to live among people in places where we are the stranger.. what happened after the Mutiny teaches us how not to...

Ok, fair enough, but doesn't " eyes being opened " imply empathy taking hold? You don't know me but I have a very tender, compassionate heart for the oppressed.

[darkeyes]

Ok, fair enough, but doesn't " eyes being opened " imply empathy taking hold? You don't know me but I have a very tender, compassionate heart for the oppressed.
Me an' all Pepper.. me an' all..:)