Rape or not?

[darkeyes]

Some of what comes out of the Republican Party doesnt haff gimme the shivers.. but it's not only right wing politicians here who think dumb thoughts about rape... Georgeous Gussie for one. I am a great supporter of Julian Assange.. for his Wikileaks work... but that he should answer the allegations of rape made against him I have not the slightest doubt.. I don't intend to go into the whole Assange saga here, but it is his cases of alleged rape which has prompted this thread and George Galloway's "Etiquette" statement...

Georgie boy's statements that having sex while a woman (and presumably also a man) is asleep does not constitute rape is a very contentious issue... that it is no more than "a breech of sexual etiquette"... no doubt many think just that, and many think it's not even a breech of etiquette.. and I will be honest, having been so fucked in my life more than once, by both ex-husband and partner to name but two, and as I have instigated sex myself while a partner sleeps, and no doubt many on site have done so too, it is not a condundrum I find easy to resolve... such instigation is often rape, but is it always? Technically says the laws of the UK countries, it is. We are unable to consent while we sleep.. this is also the law of Sweden, but no matter how often I turn it over in my mind, I have no real answer to this conundrum because if it is the case that it is rape, then our jails would be overflowing with both men and women who are rapists, and it is likely that there would be more in clink than outside of it and, from my personal own point of view, what has normally been for me a very nice way to waken up a lover or be wakened by a lover or partner would be a very dangerous thing and potentially become a thing of the past......

Gussie's statement may be dumb but it does open the debate about consent.. and just how do we decide when the instigation of sex upon a person while she (or he) is asleep constitutes rape or even should penetration not occur, sexual assault? How can we so frame law to overcome what is very tricky problem and protect women (and men) from rape while asleep and yet show common sense in its application? Indeed.. is it possible for the law to be so framed? Or should we even try?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/21/politicians-rape-case-of-denial-editorial

[Jobelorocks]

Well, I know I do this to my husband often and he does it to me. We have told each other on many occasions, that it is fine and dandy with us to wake us up this way. lol. It is a fun thing to do. I do not consider that rape. Sometimes it could be, but not always. For instance if someone starts having sex with you in your sleep who you are not in a relationship with, or that you passed out near and don't know or have sexual contact with, then yes, it is probably rape. I could see why it would be on the law books. So people can't go, yes they are finally sleeping, now is the time to make my move and violate you because you are vulnerable.

There are also laws that if someone is drunk, they can't consent to sex. My husband and I have sex pretty much every time we get drunk, do something stupid like pee in the same toilette at the same time, and they pass out. Is that really rape? I don't think so. But again I understand why it would be on the law books because someone can just get someone plastered to the point of confusion and then take advantage of them in their drunken stupor. A friend of mine had this done at a party where a stranger decided to have sex with her in a state like that and she was having a hard time figuring out what was going on. That I believe was rape.

[Long Duck Dong]

part of the trouble is when we look at a situation, we can call it whatever we want... but when we are in the situation, the lines become blurred.......

this is something that was discussed in another thread concerning sexual assault, where I made the point that if we were to be honest, a lot of the times consent is not given even in a consensual situation, ergo no consent equals sexual assault, and it was argued that that rule of thumb is wrong.... as why should a person have to clearly consent to sex every time..... my reply was simply that some of the posters were arguing that implied consent was not consent, so they were in fact not playing by the rules they wanted used but I was wrong for applying the rules as stated by other posters.....

its the same in this case.... if a female enjoys waking up to slow, passionate love making and has indicated that in the past, has she given consent for the other person to do that to her or not, if she doesn't give permission for that particular instance and could not cos she was asleep

to be honest, its something we can not frame in law, but leave as a very grey area for the courts, lawyers and juries to ponder....

personally, I have no issues with waking my partner with some very intense and sensational intentions... but I have done it cos DD is my partner, not some stranger that is a one night stand, and DD already knows that I view the rules concerning sexual assault, to be a issue for many people.....and that often the laws are used and abused by people cos of things like regret sex...

[æonpax]

`
Rape and alcohol have long been associated. The US justice system has all but thrown out the "drunk" excuse for rape. Yet, it still persists. I found a interesting site in the UK, Scotland specifically, that addresses the issue of drinking and rape: http://www.thisisnotaninvitationtorapeme.co.uk/drinking/#myth_tab

[Rhevan]

Rape and sexual assault is often not as clear cut as it would appear on first glance. The person being forced into having sexual contact states no or otherwise expresses his/her non consent with various actions such as fighting and screaming. However, there are plenty of cases on the books where things get murky. No one is saying any rape victim asks for it, but there are precautions that should be taken. Being aware of your surroundings and taking self defense courses should be standard operating procedure for any person but how do you defend yourself in your sleep? Problem is that scenario is multi layered as well. Is it a partner, is it a wife/husband, is it a stranger breaking in?

Does being married give the right to have sex an automatic yes regardless of the awake state of the partner? Some states do not have laws governing marital rape but there is such a thing. It's when the husband/wife says no and is forced into having sex anyway. This is not the guilt tripping into sex when you don't feel like it but actual physical domination of another person regardless of the fact they are bound by marriage.

That being said, I love waking my partner up or being woken up by my partner for sex. Not everyone does, and that is one of the quirks of being in a relationship, you figure those things out rather quickly, along with how she squeezes the toothpaste and hangs the toilet paper. The line gets drawn when you have drugs or alcohol involved, it does lower inhibitions, but is it still implied consent when your partner pushes you away and says "No" very clearly? Is the fact they were all over you five seconds before falling deeply asleep implied consent enough to have sex? Sorry, even if my partner had brought me to the edge of orgasm and passed out, I'd take care of myself and let her sleep. I have no interest in diddling a corpse and when she passes out that is what she most closely resembles for a few hours. I can wait until my partner is in a state of awareness to enjoy being with me rather than waking up after the fact and missing the entire ride. Just my :2cents:

Rhevan

[Warrior Poet 69]

I think this question needs a dose of uncommon sense. That's what used to be called common sense but since hardly anyone has it anymore its now considered uncommon. Back to my point. Barring some sort of weird, extreme, crazy circumstance, why are you sleeping near, next to, or with someone who might rape you? Ooh yeah. Drugs and alcohol. How silly of me to forget those two amazing and wonderful brain cell killers. If that's the reason you got raped then you've got more problems than just the quote unquote rape. I know I'm being a bit cavalier and snide about this but we aren't talking about someone brutally beating and/or physically taking you by force. We are talking about you being asleep and vulnerable with someone you don't know our trust enough to know you and your thoughts and feelings on being awakened in such a manner. Nobody deserves to be raped. Period. Never ever. That being said, exercise a bit of that uncommon sense and we aren't having this conversation.

[æonpax]

This was on Soledad O'Brien the other day - Battling a rapist for parental rights: Shauna Prewitt on her personal story of rape, birth and custody fight - http://startingpoint.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/23/battling-a-rapist-for-parental-rights-shauna-prewitt-on-her-personal-story-of-rape-birth-and-custody-fight/

Can you imagine that...the fucking rapist wanting custody of a child he forced on her.

[Jobelorocks]

I think this question needs a dose of uncommon sense. That's what used to be called common sense but since hardly anyone has it anymore its now considered uncommon. Back to my point. Barring some sort of weird, extreme, crazy circumstance, why are you sleeping near, next to, or with someone who might rape you? Ooh yeah. Drugs and alcohol. How silly of me to forget those two amazing and wonderful brain cell killers. If that's the reason you got raped then you've got more problems than just the quote unquote rape. I know I'm being a bit cavalier and snide about this but we aren't talking about someone brutally beating and/or physically taking you by force. We are talking about you being asleep and vulnerable with someone you don't know our trust enough to know you and your thoughts and feelings on being awakened in such a manner. Nobody deserves to be raped. Period. Never ever. That being said, exercise a bit of that uncommon sense and we aren't having this conversation.
Wow, so if someone is at a friends party (like my friend I mentioned earlier), drinks too much, then helped to the extra bedroom to crash, and then next thing she knows she wakes up with a guy on top of her (is confused because she is still pretty drunk) makes her stupid and she "has more problems than rape"? Some people drink socially from time to time and I don't think it is fair to say that getting raped while drunk somehow makes them stupid. Not a fair assumption to rape.

[darkeyes]

In England it was long considered to be Common Law that a man had absolute right to his wife's body and could exercise that right whenever and however he pleased (short of sodomy). Upon marriage it was considered a woman had submitted to him and that he had had rights of access because that submission gave him those rights. In short, rape was not possible within marriage. Scotland had long since abandoned that principle but in England there were a number of cases going back to 1954 which enshrined that principle in the law of England and Wales.

This state of affairs ended in 1991 when the house of Lords ended the exemption in the first appeal which had ever been allowed to get that far and held that previous rulings in lower courts had upheld not the common law, but a common law "fiction" of implied consent, The man who had been convicted by a lower court and had appealed right up to the Lords, thus lost his appeal and was sent to jail for raping his wife. The concept of marital rape exists in less than half the countries of the world, and most do not recognise a wife's right to the integrity of her own body. In the UK, they have this integrity and it is right that they do.

Implied consent is the crux of this debate and goes far beyond marriage... as such the cases which have inspired this thread, those of Julian Assange, are not as far as we know anything to do with drink or drugs, but of a man and two women with whom he had sex at night, and in the morning, as they slept he they claim had sex with them and this they claim was rape. Whether they awoke, which I would think more then likely, or whether they slept through it we do not know.. and wont until any trial takes place.. if they did indeed sleep through, it is quite possible that drink or drugs were involved and that it was upon waking that they discovered sex had happened, I think quite justifiably, they can claim rape..but not necessarily.. tiredness exhaustion and illness can all contribute to us sleeping through many things.. sex included....whether or not drink and drugs were involved, if they awoke as a result of penetration and objected, I would think they can justifiably claim rape. There was no consent.

Technically, under the laws of the UK and of Sweden, if penetration took place whatever the reason an individual lacked consciousness, this is rape.. and if this is the case as it surely is under the laws of those countries.. many, if not most of us have been both rapist and victim in the eyes of the law.

I have never felt myself to have been raped at such times, neither have I felt myself to be a rapist.. they were lovely mutual fucks. Most of them anyway .. some were a bit duff... Quite frequently for one reason or t'other, I have had my advances rejected as a partner slowly awoke from slumber and I have persisted whining little like most of us do... but it is their body, not mine and their decision not mine to make.. I have been huffy and grumped a bit but what choice had I but to stop pushing my luck?

Equally, I have rejected being touched up by a partner in my semi consciousness and even been penetrated prior to becoming conscious.. but partners have had the good sense to stop when, for whatever reason, I told them to even if often in bad grace...is this rape or a sexual assault? I never felt raped or assaulted.. but actually I suppose it is... rape and sexual assault mitigated by their self control, but rape nonetheless.. is this a rape in the eyes of the law? Is it in the eyes of common sense?

It is a bloody minefield and common sense has to prevail.. each case on its merits. that Assange should answer whatever questions exist about his conduct is unquestioned... he has not yet been charged, nor has he for reasons we know well even been questioned by the Swedish authorities...

..but if he acted wrongly, and he did indeed rape these women he should be punished to the full extent of the law.. his case has many questions and many of those questions have nothing to do with rape, but there are sufficient for us all to do some thinking and heart searching as to just what do we mean by rape in such circumstances and how do we have protection and justice for victim and also for those alleged perpetrators? Too many rapists get away with rape and in all its forms too few victims receive justice.. i the UK, and I hope Sweden and elsewhere the debate is just beginning and in the UK at least, Gussie's thoughtless intervention and the furore it has caused may be the catalyst to something better.. but what? That's the question somehow we have to answer and act upon...

[falcondfw]

I think this is a VERY difficult question.
Personally, if you have discussed being woken up with sex with your so and everyone is on board for it, I think it is ok.
However, drunk at a party and passed out or even drunk at home and passed out is a totally different matter.
With the first scenario, you have discussed things and both of you find it hot. Permission is given. No, you cannot give permission at exactly that moment, but you still have permission.
With the second scenario, there is no permission given. There is no chance to say yes or no. Heck, depending on how drunk they are, they may never wake up at all during the act and never be able to give permission.
In summary, for me personally, , Sleepy, discussed beforehand (even years prior) = ok.
Drunk = NEVER ok.

[Jobelorocks]

Drunk = NEVER ok.
So if I tell my husband it is okay for him to have sex with me even when I am really drunk or even passed out, then it is still not okay? My husband and I have drunk sex about once a month. So once a month we "rape" each other because we are drunk? There are plenty of situations where drunk sex is not rape.

[darkeyes]

So if I tell my husband it is okay for him to have sex with me even when I am really drunk or even passed out, then it is still not okay? My husband and I have drunk sex about once a month. So once a month we "rape" each other because we are drunk? There are plenty of situations where drunk sex is not rape.
I agree Jobe... ver fond of a lil rumpy wile sozzed mesel.. and have been wakened from me rather shameful stupors and been only 2 glad of a nice canoodle... but that's not the issue.. the issue is circumstance, consent and when is it rape and when is it not...

[Gearbox]

I was sleep raped by a female attacker!lol A gf told me how she blew me to completion during the night. I had no idea anything wen't on, and had never discussed it beforehand. So that must be rape?
Now I make a point to discuss any boundaries if sleeping with anybody, just in case. I'm practically un-rapable to any hookup sleepover. Except if they BB me up the arse in my sleep, drug me, chloroform me, use violence etc etc.:eek2:
Wonder if I should get a chastity belt and a baseball bat just in case?:yikes2:

[tenni]

I once slept with a woman who I knew but had not had sex with. She had been drinking. Several of us casually headed to different bedrooms for an unexpected sleep over at a remote farm house. I was chatting with her in bed and suddenly she was not responding. I realized she was asleep. I knew that my buddy had feked her. I knew that he told me that she was....uh...easy and had slept with lots of guys. I felt a bit disappointed that she fell asleep. The next morning, she scolded me for not having sex with her...lol

I was confused but ya...I would have considered it rape if I had done it. Maybe, if she responded to touch...but I saw that as a boundary not to be crossed.

Sadly, we never had another opportunity for me to test her "rape" fantasy?

[Warrior Poet 69]

Jobelorocks....I wasn't excusing the rape at all. Was simply saying maybe not get drunk. What kind of people are showing up at your friends party? Hence, more problems than rape. I'm not opposed to drinking but does it have to go to the point of excess? If you ARE partying that hard shouldn't you know who you are partying with?

[Jobelorocks]

Jobelorocks....I wasn't excusing the rape at all. Was simply saying maybe not get drunk. What kind of people are showing up at your friends party? Hence, more problems than rape. I'm not opposed to drinking but does it have to go to the point of excess? If you ARE partying that hard shouldn't you know who you are partying with?
Sorry, but if you believe just because you are partying with friends, you are safe, you are deceiving yourself. Most cases of rape are done by someone you know. Like friends, boyfriends, neighbors, family members, acquaintances. For instance I got raped and it was a boyfriend (and he seemed really trustworthy, he was active in the Church and a pretty prominent member in the community). I really am not a party animal, but people should be able to live and go out, get drunk, and have fun with their friends.

[falcondfw]

So if I tell my husband it is okay for him to have sex with me even when I am really drunk or even passed out, then it is still not okay? My husband and I have drunk sex about once a month. So once a month we "rape" each other because we are drunk? There are plenty of situations where drunk sex is not rape.

Sorry. I violated a rule of mine in my post. That rule is "NEVER say NEVER"! lol.
Jobelo, obviously, it is ok for you two to "drunk rape" each other, because you have prior permission. I was thinking more along the lines of being at a party and coming across a girl passed out drunk. My apologies.

[falcondfw]

I was sleep raped by a female attacker!lol A gf told me how she blew me to completion during the night. I had no idea anything wen't on, and had never discussed it beforehand. So that must be rape?
Now I make a point to discuss any boundaries if sleeping with anybody, just in case. I'm practically un-rapable to any hookup sleepover. Except if they BB me up the arse in my sleep, drug me, chloroform me, use violence etc etc.:eek2:
Wonder if I should get a chastity belt and a baseball bat just in case?:yikes2:

ok. let me preface this by saying I am only half kidding. And I know this is a cliche. But Gear, you can't rape the willing. Even if they become willing after the fact. lol.

[falcondfw]

I once slept with a woman who I knew but had not had sex with. She had been drinking. Several of us casually headed to different bedrooms for an unexpected sleep over at a remote farm house. I was chatting with her in bed and suddenly she was not responding. I realized she was asleep. I knew that my buddy had feked her. I knew that he told me that she was....uh...easy and had slept with lots of guys. I felt a bit disappointed that she fell asleep. The next morning, she scolded me for not having sex with her...lol

I was confused but ya...I would have considered it rape if I had done it. Maybe, if she responded to touch...but I saw that as a boundary not to be crossed.

Sadly, we never had another opportunity for me to test her "rape" fantasy?

You did the right thing Tenni.

[falcondfw]

Sorry, but if you believe just because you are partying with friends, you are safe, you are deceiving yourself. Most cases of rape are done by someone you know. Like friends, boyfriends, neighbors, family members, acquaintances. For instance I got raped and it was a boyfriend (and he seemed really trustworthy, he was active in the Church and a pretty prominent member in the community). I really am not a party animal, but people should be able to live and go out, get drunk, and have fun with their friends.

Totally agree with your post Jobelo. And i am very sorry that happened to you. I have many female friends who have been raped and in every case it was someone they knew and trusted. Family members. A guy they had been dating for a long time. It makes me more angry every time I hear about a rape, because it is just being a bully. Picking on someone they see as weaker. And it is so wrong.

[Warrior Poet 69]

Jobelo...I am truly sorry that ever happened to you and at the same time very very glad that you seem to have been able to move past it and find a good/great relationship! The guy that raped you falls into the crazy, extreme category I was talking about. Unfortunately there are and probably always will be animals like that that wear one face to hide another. My whole point was simply that we should all realize this and do our best to protect ourselves. This world would be a much better place if we all looked after and cared for one another but that's not the case or we wouldn't be having this conversation. Therefore, if we want to avoid the ugly of this world we start by looking out for ourselves i.e. drink but don't get drunk,sleep in safe place. I'm sorry you seem to have taken offense to what I posted. Was not my intent whatsoever.

[Jobelorocks]

Jobelo...I am truly sorry that ever happened to you and at the same time very very glad that you seem to have been able to move past it and find a good/great relationship! The guy that raped you falls into the crazy, extreme category I was talking about. Unfortunately there are and probably always will be animals like that that wear one face to hide another. My whole point was simply that we should all realize this and do our best to protect ourselves. This world would be a much better place if we all looked after and cared for one another but that's not the case or we wouldn't be having this conversation. Therefore, if we want to avoid the ugly of this world we start by looking out for ourselves i.e. drink but don't get drunk,sleep in safe place. I'm sorry you seem to have taken offense to what I posted. Was not my intent whatsoever.
Honestly, ya it was a little offensive. You have to remember that rape victims may read what you have written. Trust me, people tell us all the time what we could have done differently to avoid the rape, or that we put ourselves in a dumb position, or I have even been told that dressing nice or "immodestly" for my dates with that boyfriend made me partly to blame ect. ect. ect. We get enough of that and it seemed that you were saying that these people may not have deserved it, but certainly are partly to blame. Rape victims feel enough shame and they don't need anymore.

[Realist]

I agree with Jo, nothing warrants being raped.

When I was in college, a girl in some of my classes was raped at a party.

She called the police and the first cop who showed up told her that it was her fault, for not wearing a bra!

Hell, no one was wearing bras, back in the late '60s/early '70s!

Luckily, another policeman with better sense showed up. They took the rapist in custody and charged him.