Canada Eager for U.S. to Avoid the "Fiscal Cliff"

[tenni]

(from the Globe and Mail)

With the election over, the White House and the U.S. Congress can now get to work on preventing the country from hurtling over the “fiscal cliff” – and that is good news for Canada.

Hundreds of billions of dollars worth of tax cuts and spending programs are set to end automatically at the end of the year unless the two branches of government can reach a deal to avoid that. Withdrawing so much money from the economy, so suddenly, would likely throw the United States into serious recession, according to the International Monetary Fund and numerous economists. It would cut roughly four percentage points off annual economic growth at a time when the world’s largest economy is growing at a rate of about 2 per cent.

The fiscal cliff matters a great deal to Canada, and not just because 70 per cent of the country’s exports go to the United States and the two economies are so interwoven.

“A strong U.S. economy is very important for the world,” said William Robson, president of the C.D. Howe Institute in Toronto. “We want the U.S. to be strong in every sense.”

For months, the U.S. economy has been held back by an unusual wave of uncertainty, spreading nervousness among businesses and consumers everywhere, including Canada.

“Economic uncertainty is choking the economy, simply because there is no clear path for monetary or fiscal policy,” pointed out economist John Makin of the American Enterprise Institute in Washington. “Only when the Federal Reserve and lawmakers begin to take steps to reduce the uncertainty will the U.S. economy begin to show signs of growth.”

Even before Tuesday’s election, there were signs that the U.S. economy was improving. The long housing slump south of the border appears to be over, the auto industry is doing better, job creation is picking up steam and consumer confidence has reached its highest level since the recession. In a recent forecast, Export Development Canada said the United States would likely grow 2.8 per cent next year, up from 2.3 per cent this year.

That’s positive for Canada, where the economy has been steadily losing steam in recent months.

If history is any guide, Canada’s economy typically does much better when a Democrat is in the White House. In a recent paper for the Canadian International Council, University of Montreal political scientist Pierre Martin argued that Canada grows faster, exports more, its factories crank out more products and unemployment is lower during Democratic administrations. That’s based on tracking the economy as far back as the 1950s.


Do you think that the U.S. will avoid the Fiscal Cliff? Will the blame game continue with lies and accusations?

[darkeyes]

Do you think that the U.S. will avoid the Fiscal Cliff? Will the blame game continue with lies and accusations?
To the first part.. questionable... we don't know but we can but hope... to the second I have no doubt that it will... 'nuff sed really..some peeps forget just why they were elected and what they are expected to do....

[Brian]

I really hope both sides can come together. It would be a disaster for the western world if America ended up in a situation like Portugal, Ireland, Greece or Spain.

To me the general solution is obvious and amounts to moderation and compromise on EVERYTHING... you cut defense spending, you increase taxes on the wealthiest citizens (at least to the same level as the middle class, but why not more?), you selectively trim entitlements, you cut some government services (ideally you do it smartly, look for fat, and outdated systems that can be made more efficient), you re-jig corporate taxes to reward job creation (and maybe a minimum corporate tax?). You do all that and you have a balanced budget and nothing but prosperity ahead. I think the US federal budget could be balanced in just 4 years.

But I just don't know if there is a partner there in the-party-of-hell-NO! Boehner. And will the far left allow smart entitlement cuts such as maybe Medicare benefits clawbacks based on an income test? The far right and far left need to be cut loose by both parties. The time to get it done through compromise is now.

Heaven help us all if these changes are not in place by the time interest rates rise (projected to be in 2014) - the portion of every tax dollar that goes to service the debt will skyrocket and then America will be looking at (more) extreme measures everywhere. It has to happen this next 12 months. If not, then it is time for all of us to consider moving our meager retirement savings into gold under the bed.

- Drew :paw:

[jamieknyc]

The business community is not optimistic. Office holders of both parties, inlcuding President Obama, are career politicians with little experience in the business world.

[darkeyes]

The business community is not optimistic. Office holders of both parties, inlcuding President Obama, are career politicians with little experience in the business world.

It's in part their game Jamie, a serious game but intended to "persuade" Obama to fall into their line and do their bidding.. the trouble is all too often governments they don't like fall into the trap.. they are pessimistic as much for effect as in reality... which is why so far not much has changed since they (the business community and the banking business community in particular) got the world economy in the mire and bide their time to restore themselves and capital to rude health and do much as they like until the next time they flush us all down the toilet.. we have seen it all before...

[jamieknyc]

You might have been right ina past age. Today, office holders are career politicians, to whom the private secxtor is a foreign language.

[darkeyes]

You might have been right ina past age. Today, office holders are career politicians, to whom the private secxtor is a foreign language.
Doesn't matter if they are career politicians or not... it doesn't change... and won't until some1 takes them on and faces them down and deals with their game.....

[falcondfw]

(from the Globe and Mail)

With the election over, the White House and the U.S. Congress can now get to work on preventing the country from hurtling over the “fiscal cliff” – and that is good news for Canada.

Hundreds of billions of dollars worth of tax cuts and spending programs are set to end automatically at the end of the year unless the two branches of government can reach a deal to avoid that. Withdrawing so much money from the economy, so suddenly, would likely throw the United States into serious recession, according to the International Monetary Fund and numerous economists. It would cut roughly four percentage points off annual economic growth at a time when the world’s largest economy is growing at a rate of about 2 per cent.

The fiscal cliff matters a great deal to Canada, and not just because 70 per cent of the country’s exports go to the United States and the two economies are so interwoven.

“A strong U.S. economy is very important for the world,” said William Robson, president of the C.D. Howe Institute in Toronto. “We want the U.S. to be strong in every sense.”

For months, the U.S. economy has been held back by an unusual wave of uncertainty, spreading nervousness among businesses and consumers everywhere, including Canada.

“Economic uncertainty is choking the economy, simply because there is no clear path for monetary or fiscal policy,” pointed out economist John Makin of the American Enterprise Institute in Washington. “Only when the Federal Reserve and lawmakers begin to take steps to reduce the uncertainty will the U.S. economy begin to show signs of growth.”

Even before Tuesday’s election, there were signs that the U.S. economy was improving. The long housing slump south of the border appears to be over, the auto industry is doing better, job creation is picking up steam and consumer confidence has reached its highest level since the recession. In a recent forecast, Export Development Canada said the United States would likely grow 2.8 per cent next year, up from 2.3 per cent this year.

That’s positive for Canada, where the economy has been steadily losing steam in recent months.

If history is any guide, Canada’s economy typically does much better when a Democrat is in the White House. In a recent paper for the Canadian International Council, University of Montreal political scientist Pierre Martin argued that Canada grows faster, exports more, its factories crank out more products and unemployment is lower during Democratic administrations. That’s based on tracking the economy as far back as the 1950s.


Do you think that the U.S. will avoid the Fiscal Cliff? Will the blame game continue with lies and accusations?

To the first question, the answer is partially. Some of the tax cuts will be allowed to expire. Others will not. We will not avoid the additional taxes from Obamacare (Stupid, Uneducated - on the candidates, Voters). Plus, Obama wants to raise the capital gains tax and the corporate tax rate. So for the most part, no, we will not avoid the fiscal cliff.

To the second question, does a bear crap in the woods? Of course the blame and lies will continue.

Just remember, it's all Bush's fault.

[12voltman59]

Of course no one really wants the US to do this--because the US economy still is the biggest economy in the world and with things not so good across Europe and even China is having some problems of its own, Japan has had long standing problems only made worse thanks to the triple header disaster from last year--the US economic recovery might be weak---but it still has one of the better performing ones in the world and it is certainly the case that if the US "gets a cold, everyone else gets pneumonia" is surely not a good thing.

I would like to think that something might actually get done with yesterday being such a rather big sweep for the Democrats, not only with the win of Obama---but that the Dems are going to get more seats in the Senate--enough that if the rules of the Senate were as they are supposed to be, the Dems would gain total control of that body---rules set forth in no less a document than the Constitution itself. The Constitution clearly states that it takes 50 plus one votes with (the tie breaking vote being cast by the Vice President) for action on measures to take place--but the rules have been perverted in recent years that it now takes 60 plus votes for a "Super Majority" in order for bills to be passed!!

In spite of the wins by the Dems--the leadership of the House, John Boehner and in the Senate, Mitch McConnell, have basically laid down the same "conditions" to President Obama and the Dems when it comes to working together--"what we mean by compromise is that you come to our way of viewing things and accept what our priorities are!!" Boehner actually said along the lines of "President Obama and the Democrats seem to believe that they have some sort of mandate for their agenda---it is clear they don't since they didn't get control of either house--we are the ones who have a mandate since we retain control of the House and the Democrats did not get total control in the Senate."

Now--it is something--Barack Obama has won office in two back to back elections-- with the results being incontestable and clear--- winning both the popular and electoral college counts--by as big a margin as any candidate gets in this era.

The Republicans spin this as not being any indication that Obama has a mandate--but yet--go back to the year 2000 and the way that election played out--with-- lets face it---George W. Bush effectively only got the five votes that really came to matter in that election---the votes of five members of the US Supreme Court with those votes making him president--but when you do look at the actual vote count---Bush won the electoral college count but did lose the popular vote----he took office acting as if he had this big, huge, sweeping mandate and when he got re-elected in a squeaker four years later--with some dispute hanging out there about the outcome--his final numbers being smaller than what Obama has gotten both times----he once again took off in his second term acting as if he once again had a big mandate to do as he pleased. Of course--the right wing media, lead by "networks" like FOX News backed him up.

The bottom line of this is that if we lived in a just world--what took place yesterday for the Democrats and Barack Obama was a very real mandate for them---but no---it gets spun as that not being the case--so it does seem that we are just going to have more of the same---more deadlocked government with the Republicans serving once again as "do nothing," obstructionists----with them being more dedicated to holding fast to their ideology and "principles" over actually doing anything that is vital for the good of the country and the world.

I guess they would rather "scuttle the ship with all hands aboard" out of spite, and their misguided adherence to their Grover Norquist pledge to "never, ever raise taxes for any reason whatsoever" (this is something to me that I consider to be tantamount to Treason and Sedition for an elected official to hold to a pledge "required of all Republican candidates for office," an extraneous pledge that Republicans give fidelity to a degree that seems to exceed the degree of fidelity they give to the oath of office taken upon their inauguration to office, an oath the says they will faithfully serve the people and to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies--foreign and domestic")---so unless something changes with them---ya all enjoy the ride!!!!

[jem_is_bi]

Better to crap in the woods than on the world economy.
Bush's fault? I think we need to turn the finger back toward ourselves.
We elected him twice in spite of his destructive economic and war policies.

[12voltman59]

In the great PBS documentary film series, The Civil War, Ken Burns relied upon the work of the late historian, Shelby Foote, who had spent his life documenting that war to create that incredible film.

Foote appeared frequently in clips where he discussed each aspect of history being covered in each part of the film.

In one section of the film when discussing the reasons for the war----which of course dealt with the issue of slavery--Foote noted that it was not the dispute over the issue itself that lead to the war---but that both sides of the issue had come to a point that "they lost the ability to compromise" on the issue and thus--began the chain of events that lead to the war and its terrible consequences.

Well-I think that our current situation is much the same today.

With all this intense polarization on each side regarding just about everything---hell--today it seems that we are incapable of agreeing on any thing from the most important to the most trivial---it puts us in jeopardy.

I would imagine a conversation between a "liberal" Democrat Congress member and a "conservative," Republican one that might go something like this:

"Hello Jim, lovely day outside, isn't it?? The leaves are coming out on the trees, its warm and sunny, the birds are chirping--its a day that makes you happy to be alive!" says one.

The other responds: "A nice day---are you crazy??---its cold, nasty and snowing outside!! You need to have your head examined!!"

[jem_is_bi]

I just listened (CSPAN) to a far-right list of what they want to change in the Republican party based on this year's failure.
WOW!!!!

[Realist]

Our paper this morning said with the house Republican majority, it's doubtful that Obama will be able to implement many of the changes he wants. He does not have a mandate, it seems.

[darkeyes]

To the first question, the answer is partially. Some of the tax cuts will be allowed to expire. Others will not. We will not avoid the additional taxes from Obamacare (Stupid, Uneducated - on the candidates, Voters). Plus, Obama wants to raise the capital gains tax and the corporate tax rate. So for the most part, no, we will not avoid the fiscal cliff.

To the second question, does a bear crap in the woods? Of course the blame and lies will continue.

Just remember, it's all Bush's fault.Taxes taxes taxes... fucking taxes.. its about far more than bloody taxes falcon and 'bout time u lot over on that side of the fence realised it... unless its sorted... and ur team in the House stops it stupid games, that fiscal cliff of which everyone speaks will become an ever increasing drop the bottom of which will become farther away and a damn sight harder for all.. including we who are not Americans.. when we do finally hit rock bottom... I am under no illusions 'bout Obama.. he has and will make mistakes and do things I loathe... a lot of things I loathe.. forget whose fault it was the mess we are in.. or where bears crap.. the only bears we have in this country are in zoos or stuffed in museums... and for huge parts of the Republican party these are about the only places they should be found... more chimp than bear, enjoying their tea party or gazing brain dead from inside a glass case... if after the New Year the arse falls out of the world's economy again, we will know who is responsible... and I suspect it will not be Obama who is the principal culprit...

[jamieknyc]

Obama won't make mistakes, because he is going to sit in office like a potted plant for four years, like he did for most of his first term. In reality, he is little more than a Democratic Party hack. He never supported most of the ideas that the followers of the Obama personality cult are pushing.

[darkeyes]

Personally, I would rather a party hack than a political maverick who does his own thing depending on how he feels when he gets out of bed of a morning.. from what we see here Obama is a bit of a mix of the two and hasn't been stunning at either.. he is however far more progressive, much more compassionate, infinitely more tolerant and far less dangerous than what was on offer from the other side... as, if I may say so, is the party to which he belongs...

[Brian]

10060I think, jamie, you will see a balanced budget within 4 years, or well on the way to being balanced. Just like in the 1990s it is moderate progressives who will demonstrate that when the Party Of Hell No is tamed then great things happen, including things Republicans pretend to believe in.

I have zero respect for the Republican Party. I don't think they are what they pretend to be. If the fundamentalist christians in the Republican party really believe all their nonsense, and the tea party libertarians in the Republican party really believe all their nonsense, and the fiscal conservatives in the Republican party believe all their nonsense, then the party should split - because the three are fundamentally incompatible. You can't claim to believe in freedom on one hand, and want to entrench a fundamentalist reading of the bible into law (to be forced on all, but especially those uppity women) on another hand, and want a country with the infrastructure for a thriving economy on the other (I know, third) hand.

10061So I say to the Republican Party, split up already. If any Republicans really believe their principles then they must split. But I don't think the Republican Party will split because when it gets right down to it Republicans have no principles. They don't really believe in fiscal prudence - they don't really believe in lower taxes for the middle class - they don't really believe in taming the debt - they don't really believe jesus will return soon - they don't really believe in small government - they don't really believe in freedom - they don't really support the troops - they don't really believe in personal responsibility. They only really believe in Fox News and Rush Limbaugh, which is to believe in nothing at all.

I think the Republican Party has put party before nation for far too long . Now, just like in the 1990s it is going to be liberals who show them how to balance the books, grow the economy and make people truly free. If Republicans had any convictions they would split from their beloved party of hypocrisy to one with a consistency of belief (the Libertarian Party, the Christian Party, the Small Business Party). A coalition of incompatible ideas, a coalition of hypocrisy, is not a sustainable coalition.

True conservatives should be happy with an Obama victory because he is going to do what should be the most important thing to all conservatives, and what *is* the most important thing to progressives - tame that deficit and continue the economic recovery from the financial disaster known as the Bush years. He'll do that and still have time to ensure people are free from the yoke of fundamentalist christianity.

- Drew :paw:

[IanBorthwick]

To the first part.. questionable... we don't know but we can but hope... to the second I have no doubt that it will... 'nuff sed really..some peeps forget just why they were elected and what they are expected to do....

By "some" you share the blame amongst the legislature when it should rest wholly on the obstructionists...or Republicans. The Election on Tuesday was a wake up call for them to wake up or go the fuck away. And it's time you stopped sharing blame across a spectrum because you don't want to pick a side. What you're doing there is not reaching for impartiality, you're tryign to remain Neutral, like Switzerland. That's the path to truth, that's the way to be aloof and ignorant of facts.

[IanBorthwick]

I really hope both sides can come together. It would be a disaster for the western world if America ended up in a situation like Portugal, Ireland, Greece or Spain.

To me the general solution is obvious and amounts to moderation and compromise on EVERYTHING... you cut defense spending, you increase taxes on the wealthiest citizens (at least to the same level as the middle class, but why not more?), you selectively trim entitlements, you cut some government services (ideally you do it smartly, look for fat, and outdated systems that can be made more efficient), you re-jig corporate taxes to reward job creation (and maybe a minimum corporate tax?). You do all that and you have a balanced budget and nothing but prosperity ahead. I think the US federal budget could be balanced in just 4 years.

But I just don't know if there is a partner there in the-party-of-hell-NO! Boehner. And will the far left allow smart entitlement cuts such as maybe Medicare benefits clawbacks based on an income test? The far right and far left need to be cut loose by both parties. The time to get it done through compromise is now.

Heaven help us all if these changes are not in place by the time interest rates rise (projected to be in 2014) - the portion of every tax dollar that goes to service the debt will skyrocket and then America will be looking at (more) extreme measures everywhere. It has to happen this next 12 months. If not, then it is time for all of us to consider moving our meager retirement savings into gold under the bed.

- Drew :paw:

This is where I have to disagree with you, Drew. The "Austerity" myth is being blasted apart in the countries you mention as being non-viable. The cutting of the necessary to spare the wealthiest as if taxes causes a decrease in businesses has been a farce for ages untold.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yVU0hwv7-Q&feature=colike

Thom Hartmann adresses it the post election show on RT the Big Picture.

[darkeyes]

By "some" you share the blame amongst the legislature when it should rest wholly on the obstructionists...or Republicans. The Election on Tuesday was a wake up call for them to wake up or go the fuck away. And it's time you stopped sharing blame across a spectrum because you don't want to pick a side. What you're doing there is not reaching for impartiality, you're tryign to remain Neutral, like Switzerland. That's the path to truth, that's the way to be aloof and ignorant of facts.
The "some" I refer to are precisely the obstructionist arseholes u are so concerned about... none else.. I picked my side a long time ago.. if anything I have said makes u think I am neutral in the fight against capitalism and the right in this world then u know bugger all.. if it was up to me I'd tear down ur "democracy" as well as ur entire socio/economic system and chuck it on the scrapheap and have it replaced with something worthy of the words and more importantly of the people they are supposed to serve.. just as if I could, I would do my own and to that end I spend much of my active political life... try clicking ur brain in gear a bit more and stop trying to tell others what they are doing or saying when u don't have a bloody clue.. I am not impartial when it comes to what goes on in the world and certainly not neutral... I do as I always do; speak as I find of parties of the right, the centre or the left or anything else in this world... u may not like either where I stand or what I say, but then where u stand and much of what u say I think is bollox as well..

[jamieknyc]

You're reading about it in the newspapers. In reality, the Democratic Party is just as much controlled by wealthy power brokers as the Republican Party. All the 'compassionate' stuff is just a lot of PR.

[darkeyes]

I'm under no illusions about the Democratic Party, Jamie.

[pepperjack]

Personally, I would rather a party hack than a political maverick who does his own thing depending on how he feels when he gets out of bed of a morning.. from what we see here Obama is a bit of a mix of the two and hasn't been stunning at either.. he is however far more progressive, much more compassionate, infinitely more tolerant and far less dangerous than what was on offer from the other side... as, if I may say so, is the party to which he belongs...

Political maverick? http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell110712.php3

[pepperjack]

By "some" you share the blame amongst the legislature when it should rest wholly on the obstructionists...or Republicans. The Election on Tuesday was a wake up call for them to wake up or go the fuck away. And it's time you stopped sharing blame across a spectrum because you don't want to pick a side. What you're doing there is not reaching for impartiality, you're tryign to remain Neutral, like Switzerland. That's the path to truth, that's the way to be aloof and ignorant of facts.

Ok, let me try to connect these dots. Being neutral = path of truth= aloofness & ignorance of " facts ." So, according to your logic....truth & facts are diametric. No wonder you're so jubilant about Obama's win. Ok, I'm neutral that the sun will rise in the morning because it's a given; and it's also a truth because all life on earth knows it and also a fact because science has not pointed out any reason for it not to rise. So, how does truth contradict facts here?

[void()]

Better to crap in the woods than on the world economy.
Bush's fault? I think we need to turn the finger back toward ourselves.
We elected him twice in spite of his destructive economic and war policies.

*chuckles* I did not vote for Bush either of the three times, Jr. or Sr. The last I voted was for Regan, and then only due to personality. My first and only vote. Then, I became more informed and realized Stalin was right. Voters decide nothing, only the ones counting the votes do. And as my father in law is fond of saying after twenty odd years as an inside sales person, "follow the money, it never lies."

This election, shunting away alternate parties is a prime example of my father in law's truth. Few saw the Green Party respond to the Justice Party during debates. Why? Money bought mainstream media and the debates. Most Americans blissfully ignorant of third and fourth, fifth and possibly a sixth party chose between only two parties that offered evil and evil's lesser brother. Some fucking democracy.

Even a liberal media outlet like Democracy Now limited its coverage of the debates. Which, in their defense may have been due to budgeting reasons and not some insidious conspiracy. Honestly I think the conspiracy happened well before John Kennedy, Hamilton making the Federal Reserve, a centralized private bank. Ask a bank robber why they rob banks. Quite an obvious answer and more credence of that truth about following the money.

Look at how the bankers (in general) seem to have fleeced everyone. They did it to Russia, Japan, China, Spain, Greece and now here America is in the cross hairs. I concur with Fran, abolish our fiat currencies. We need to return to something real backing a promise. Even if it's only labor. Heck, I would gladly deal with my pain, pick a few bushels of strawberries if I got a bushel for my trouble. I might help paint a house if some Joe will come along and help me set up a solar system at my house. Or, we could return to gold and silver, gems ... whatever, fiat currency is dead weight.

No fixing it when it's this rotten through. Dump it over the side, find another barrel. Oh, and let's us try to remember this shit. It's happened before, time and time again but we don't seem keen to learn it. Don't use fiat currency or central private banks. It gives away too much power from the good guys.

[darkeyes]

Political maverick? http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell110712.php3Not being an expert on American governance, Pepper, how much is flank an how much constitutionally correct I have no idea... but do kno' that Bushie did like 2 do 'is own thing and all and was fond of working a flanker or 2..... and Cameron here is no diff.. its 1 thing squealing at wrong doing but its a bit much 2 just squeal bout wrong doing of 1 side cos the side they r so fond of r just as bad if not a bloody sight worse... what I can say is if biz and the right are squealing bout paying ther dues then things cant b going that badly.... and if they are squealing about things I care about being wrong then even better... wrong person 2 post that 2 babes...

[jamieknyc]

Slow down, no banker made anyone buy a house, car, boat, vacation, etc. with borrowed money, and certainly didn't make people lie and say they were buying their home for more than the actual purchase price so they could borrow 100% of the cost. And as for gold-backed currency, you can't turn the clock back to the time of Grover Cleveland.

[tenni]

I'm not quite sure how US banking practices play into the fiscal cliff other than being a factor in the downward spiral of the US economy. Unregulated banking practices led to deceit and "profit greed" on many US bankers. In Canada, we had more stricter regulations and we did not experience the housing market bust due to excessive building etc. Bringing this thread back to the premise that there is a fiscal cliff that the US is about to fall off. It is not directly impacted by the poor US banking practices but how the various levels of the US government system need to change their path. Years of poor fiscal management on the US government by US legislators have brought the US to this cliff. I'm sure most of us are hopeful that the US government will be able to prevent this for not only the US sake but the rest of the world. I don't know whether the US people themselves need to stop their bickering and put pressure on their government to work better together. Is it like a train heading to a train wreck that can only be seen from outside the train?

[darkeyes]

Is it like a train heading to a train wreck that can only be seen from outside the train?
No... they see it from inside the train ok... trouble is some at the back of the train are quite happy for the wreck to happen rather than than have the points switched 2 take train onto a safer line . and the driver and rest of the passengers r almost helpless to stop it happening......

[darkeyes]

No... they see it from inside the train ok... trouble is some at the back of the train are quite happy for the wreck to happen rather than than have the points switched 2 take train onto a safer line . and the driver and rest of the passengers r almost helpless to stop it happening........and of course all the peeps who r innocent bystanders not on the train who have 2 watch this happening and con do bugger all cos 1ce train comes off the track it will career in2 just 'bout everyone1....:eek2:

[Vatnos]

"President Obama and the Democrats seem to believe that they have some sort of mandate for their agenda---it is clear they don't since they didn't get control of either house--we are the ones who have a mandate since we retain control of the House and the Democrats did not get total control in the Senate."

Note that Democrats received more votes for the House of Representatives but due to gerrymandering the Republicans control a majority of seats. What they have is not a real mandate but a stolen branch of government that is unaccountable to a public. Boehner can thank the conservative Supreme Court for protecting the state legislatures' ability to disenfranchise their citizens.

Ohio, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and North Carolina are so severely gerrymandered it would take a 10+ point democratic majority in the states to overcome the geographic disadvantage they have been given. In my state, which voted mostly for democrats for the House, only 4 of 13 seats have democrats in them, each winning by massive 70-80 point majorities, while Republicans control all the other seats with 55-45 majorities.

[falcondfw]

Slow down, no banker made anyone buy a house, car, boat, vacation, etc. with borrowed money, and certainly didn't make people lie and say they were buying their home for more than the actual purchase price so they could borrow 100% of the cost. And as for gold-backed currency, you can't turn the clock back to the time of Grover Cleveland.

Yeah, economically we can. And we need to. One of the things that is keeping this recession going and making there be no recovery is the fact that we put the printing presses in the "Locked On" position. The Quantitative Easing, now to the tune of a total of almost 3 TRILLION dollars has greatly weakened the value of the dollar.
One of the things I love about Ron Paul (ok. the only thing.) is his fiscal sense. He's a loon when it comes to foreign policy and the military but he is right on target economically. We need to turn the printing presses off, go back to the gold standard and CUT SPENDING!

[falcondfw]

I'm not quite sure how US banking practices play into the fiscal cliff other than being a factor in the downward spiral of the US economy. Unregulated banking practices led to deceit and "profit greed" on many US bankers. In Canada, we had more stricter regulations and we did not experience the housing market bust due to excessive building etc. Bringing this thread back to the premise that there is a fiscal cliff that the US is about to fall off. It is not directly impacted by the poor US banking practices but how the various levels of the US government system need to change their path. Years of poor fiscal management on the US government by US legislators have brought the US to this cliff. I'm sure most of us are hopeful that the US government will be able to prevent this for not only the US sake but the rest of the world. I don't know whether the US people themselves need to stop their bickering and put pressure on their government to work better together. Is it like a train heading to a train wreck that can only be seen from outside the train?

Banking PRACTICES have nothing to do with the fiscal cliff. I agree with everything you say. The loosening of lending standards and almost insistence of our government that banks lend to unqualified borrowers is a big part of what got us in the recession, but it has nothing to do with the fiscal cliff.
The problem is, to Obama, compromise is "The Republicans give up what they want and give in to what I want.". That is not compromise. And unless Bohner blinks (AGAIN!) we will be going over the "fiscal cliff".

The combination of the Bush tax cuts expiring, the new Obamacare taxes, the raising of Capital Gains and Corporate taxes (like Obama wants to do) will not only send this country back into recession, it will send us into full blown depression. With higher taxes, corporations will be moving offshore and taking the jobs with them. With higher capital gains taxes, investors will invest in other countries where they can get more for their money and keep more of it. With the bush tax cuts expiring, plus the Obamacare taxes, plus the expiring of the social security tax break we have had for the past two years, consumers won't have the jobs or the money to spend. And so the death spiral will continue.

[pepperjack]

Not being an expert on American governance, Pepper, how much is flank an how much constitutionally correct I have no idea... but do kno' that Bushie did like 2 do 'is own thing and all and was fond of working a flanker or 2..... and Cameron here is no diff.. its 1 thing squealing at wrong doing but its a bit much 2 just squeal bout wrong doing of 1 side cos the side they r so fond of r just as bad if not a bloody sight worse... what I can say is if biz and the right are squealing bout paying ther dues then things cant b going that badly.... and if they are squealing about things I care about being wrong then even better... wrong person 2 post that 2 babes...

Wrong person? You opened the door with comment " political maverick. " And you do have " illusions about Obama " if you think he's " caring & compassionate ." He's a ruthless, power-hungry shark. You can " loathe " me & my comments all you like. Btw....I'm not a Republican but an Independent, a freedom lover.

[darkeyes]

Wrong person? You opened the door with comment " political maverick. " And you do have " illusions about Obama " if you think he's " caring & compassionate ." He's a ruthless, power-hungry shark. You can " loathe " me & my comments all you like. Btw....I'm not a Republican but an Independent, a freedom lover.
Haven't said he isn't power hungry or ruthless.. but being those things doesn't necessarily remove from a man his compassion or his ability to care... in pursuit of a goal many people are such, but words were not that he is caring and compassionate, but that he is more caring and compassionate than what was on offer from his main opponent and by a long way, his party for all its faults, is by a long way more caring and compassionate than the Republican Party. No I don't have any illusions about Obama whatsoever, but of what was on offer..he is simply your best bet... as well as ours... and trust me.. that doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence... but what it does not do as would be the case if Romney had won.. it does not fill me with dread...

[pepperjack]

Haven't said he isn't power hungry or ruthless.. but being those things doesn't necessarily remove from a man his compassion or his ability to care... in pursuit of a goal many people are such, but words were not that he is caring and compassionate, but that he is more caring and compassionate than what was on offer from his main opponent and by a long way, his party for all its faults, is by a long way more caring and compassionate than the Republican Party. No I don't have any illusions about Obama whatsoever, but of what was on offer..he is simply your best bet... as well as ours... and trust me.. that doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence... but what it does not do as would be the case if Romney had won.. it does not fill me with dread...

Both candidates were perceived by various peoples as ' the lesser of two evils. '

[void()]

10109

[pepperjack]

10109


Actually, there's a powerful, post-election momentum occurring & the Bhengazi stench is reaching higher to heaven.:shades:

[void()]

Actually, there's a powerful, post-election momentum occurring & the Bhengazi stench is reaching higher to heaven.:shades:

Yes, the CIA Director resigned due to having an affair. Quite a terrible stench of being human. Still believe you're beating a dead horse.

[pepperjack]

Yes, the CIA Director resigned due to having an affair. Quite a terrible stench of being human. Still believe you're beating a dead horse.


Being Human; isn't that a cancelled Sci-Fi channel series? Didn't realize it had such far reaching implications.:rolleyes:

[jamieknyc]

Yeah, economically we can. And we need to. One of the things that is keeping this recession going and making there be no recovery is the fact that we put the printing presses in the "Locked On" position. The Quantitative Easing, now to the tune of a total of almost 3 TRILLION dollars has greatly weakened the value of the dollar.
One of the things I love about Ron Paul (ok. the only thing.) is his fiscal sense. He's a loon when it comes to foreign policy and the military but he is right on target economically. We need to turn the printing presses off, go back to the gold standard and CUT SPENDING!

Actually, the value of the dollar has gone up considerably in the last eighteen months rather than down. But that is due to the implosion of the Euro zone.

[void()]

Being Human; isn't that a cancelled Sci-Fi channel series? Didn't realize it had such far reaching implications.:rolleyes:

I know you're trying to be funny. Unfortunately, I do not find humor in this comment. Not your fault. I have a droll and macabre sense of humor which often fails to see the funny others may.

[12voltman59]

I did go and support Barack Obama again this election cycle and I can surely say---I do not think he is some sort of Messiah or such--nor are the Democrats all that great--but when you do consider the only viable alternative we have at present in American politics (thanks to the faulty manner in which it is set up) to Barack Obama and the Dems---that other party and the entire slate of candidates they fielded this year were to a person---unfit for duty as POTUS with all their pandering to the "tea party" faction of the modern Republican Party.

While Obama and the Dems surely have their faults---at least they do realize that they live and have to deal with this particular time-space continuum---I don't know which one or ones that the Republicans must be seeing and mostly living in--because with all of their inane and often just simply untrue stuff they came up with----it sure as hell is apparent they do not realize the realities of this one!!!

[DiamondDog]

The not surprising thing is, you won't find a legitimate solution proposed by either side. No one in DC (save a few fiscal radicals) take the debt seriously.

It's kind of a joke they keep telling people they are going to deal with it for decades and year after year, and no progress gets made ever.

It will never get fully paid off. Doesn't anyone study economics or history?

People who try to live way above their means and go into debt, don't pay off their debt, and buy expensive houses/cars, and take out loans and then complain about what happens when they don't pay off their debts are idiots and get what they deserve when they're kicked out of their home, or their car is reposessed. I have no sympathy for people like this since they brought it onto themselves.

Doesn't anyone actually know about personal finance, how to manage your own money, pay off your bills completely, and not go into debt?

Does anyone here have an MBA or study world economics?

[kev1963]

I'm an American and I hope we DO go over the cliff and I'll tell you why.

We know that fiscally the gov't defecit needs to be dealt with. That's a no-brainer.
The defecit CANNOT be dealt with if only budget cuts are on the table.
We know Republicans are dead set against raising any taxes and most have signed a pledge with Grover Norquist to NEVER raise taxes. If anyone breaks their signed pledge they will have the full wrath of Tea Party money donors ready and waiting to support someone else in 2014, the next time there are Congressional elections.
Norquist's pledge demand (bribe) was detailed on 60 minutes a year ago.

If the US goes "over the cliff" on Jan. 1 this is what will happen:
The "Bush Tax Cuts" effective since 2001/02 will expire.
Taxes will go up on EVERYONE, and draconian cuts will be made in defense and domestic spending.

What will occur is that when this happens, Congress will quickly enact new legislation to restore most of the cut funding and they will trim back tax rates but the biggest issues, namely estate taxes and taxes on interest/dividend income (mostly earned by wealthy folks) will be dealt with separately. If Republicans try to impede this they will look like fools in the eyes of the public because all they ever talk about is cutting taxes and in such a scenario they would be the very ones blamed for NOT cutting taxes by a large majority of the population. Given the demographics of the recent election results, most Americans agree that the Republicans already have a huge image problem in the eyes of the population. Most Americans also realize that the deficit cannot be dealt with only by cutting spending and that additional tax revenue is necessary.

The end result will be a tax cut enacted for Wage earners retroactive to Jan. 1 (the date when the rates go up). By being retroactive, the increased amount deducted from paychecks until the new tax bill is signed will be reduced to what people are used to and the over-deduction from the period Jan. 1 until the new tax bill is signed will be returned to wage earners so for wage earners there will be little or no net tax hike at all for the entire year.

What the result will be is that Republicans will be seen as cutting taxes when a new tax bill is passed. The actual effect is that that because investment and estate taxes and other parts of the Bush Tax cuts will not be re-enacted in a new "high priority" tax bill, total tax collections received by the government will go up because of the automatic expiration of those tax cuts. A new "high priority" tax bill will cut taxes to levels that wage earners are used to. And the good news is that none of the Republicans can be accused of raising taxes, so they are off the hook where their "no new taxes" pledge is concerned. With actual tax collections going up because of the automatic expiration of the "Bush Tax Cuts" and budget cuts in spending finally taking place in a serious way, the country will finally be starting to deal with the huge deficit that it has in a way that will have broad impact on it.

I am VERY much in favor of going OVER THE CLIFF!!!

[Brian]

I'm with kev. From what I have heard on the news channels the "cliff" is a bit of a misnomer. Most of it is good stuff, especially the stuff that happens Jan 1 - such as bi-bi to the Bush tax cuts for the very rich (which has been such a huge portion of the deficit the last 10 years and has yielded precious little benefits for anyone other than the Chinese and the very rich). It is more like an uncomfortable incline rather than a cliff. I think it will all be fine. The powers that be will cut a deal before the crazy stuff kicks in.

Anyway, no more politics from me for a while. I needed to let it all out this last week after so many months of hypertense election coverage. Now it is back to mostly minding my own business as a Canadian (well trying). ;)

- Drew :paw:

[ExSailor]

Obama doesn't cater towards the rich with tax breaks or tax cuts for them. He's somehow not as bad as Bush when it comes to spending money we don't have. :rolleyes: Yeah it's a good thing if we go "over the cliff" and go bankrupt. :rolleyes:

[darkeyes]

Obama doesn't cater towards the rich with tax breaks or tax cuts for them. He's somehow not as bad as Bush when it comes to spending money we don't have. :rolleyes: Yeah it's a good thing if we go "over the cliff" and go bankrupt. :rolleyes:
Maybe it is.. if it brings the whole capitalist system tumbling down and something better is put in its place which is fairer and more responsive to needs of all people not just a few.. trouble with that is the misery and poverty it will bring world wide until that new economic and social system gets up and running and being effective... evolution or revolution? I'm all in favour of both and don't see either as necessarily precluding the other.. it depends on what we are prepared to sacrifice to achieve an end and whether the end justifies the means which it doesn't always. Whether something better would be put in capitalism's place is questionable and the most likely scenario is a new "improved" more brutal capitalism would appear with a new ruling class..or maybe the old one entrenched even more in position and power... revolution can be a good thing but the conditions and time for it must be right... the question is whether or not the end of this year and early next is the right time? The only answer to that is to let it happen...