Religious Zealots hopefully get theirs....

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

http://news.yahoo.com/petition-urges-white-house-classify-westboro-church-hate-192906943.html

[Brian]

I watched the movie "The Hamburg Cell" last night, so I have a special disgust for religious zealots today and for the next couple of days.

1. The bad news is I am pretty sure that when religious zealots die they fail to realize how disgustingly wrong they were in life. The 9/11 perpetrators expected to be lead by the hand by two beautiful virgins into heaven in the moments after they murdered and died (apparently it is written somewhere, so it must be true). But all the evidence points to nothing at all happening after we die - the brain ceases to function and so all sense and thought ends. So too will Fred Phelps never realize in death how full of shit he is.

2. The good news is that religious zealots can be exposed as nasty idiots by science-based thoughtful reasoning when they are alive and after they are dead. A simple example... What do Muhamed Atta and Fred Phelps have in common? Answer, a lot of things, but just one is they both believe in a god that thinks human slavery can be justified.

3. Unless Westboro has crossed a line recently, I don't think they should be labelled an official hate group. I think we have to be very careful about what we consider to be "hate speech" and thus a "hate group". We owe so much to the concept of "free speech" (often called "freedom of expression" in Canada and I think the UK) - it really is the cornerstone of so much of our high quality of life in the west. If Westboro advocates violence then yes, they are a hate group. But I think Westboro is careful to not cross that line - they are cowards at heart, leaving the real nasty work, including death and torture, for their imaginary god.

As an atheist I kindof like Westboro - they do so much of the work for me. I think moderate theists should appreciate them for the same reason. Best to let them spew is my thinking.

- Drew :paw:

[Realist]

My most powerful issue with them is, their total lack of respect for those who are mourning someone who has died. Any person in the depths of sorrow, over the loss of a loved one, certainly does not need to be subjected to that kind of abuse.

If that is not an hateful act, I don't know what is.

[tenni]

"a hate group or end its tax-exempt status."

There seems to be a few things in play here. Questions as to whether this "church" is a hate group and whether the actions of this church fall outside of US tax exemption for churches in the US.

I agree with Realist that the behaviour of this group at funerals is socially unacceptable. To connect sexual orientation as a cause of death for a different individual seems most bizarre. I am uncertain as to the US but in Canada the difficulty for an action to be seen as a hate crime apparently falls under several laws. As drew mention the use of speech to incite violence towards a group is not legal in Canada and hopefully in the US as well.

I know that this group attempted to enter Canada or spoke about coming to a funeral in Canada. A federal cabinet minister made a statement that the woman(daughter of Phelps) would be turned back at the border. We have not heard of their threats since as far as I can recall. So, it seems that they will back down. You just have to find or create laws that make their behaviour legally unacceptable. Would a sexual orientation equality law improve the chances of stopping this group from harassing the families of dead people? Would it make it illegal to stop such accusations about non heteros causing tragedies and death? I would think that it should but suspect that it won't in the US.

It would be interesting to know if scientific reasoning has been of any help in rectifying their mistaken beliefs? How would that go?

[zman64]

The Westboro people..( I use the term people very loosely here)..are about making money and they do that by the publicity they get. They attempt to incite those they target into violence against them in order to take legal action for financial gain. One way to keep them at bay is for the law enforcement agencies in the areas they appear to deny them special protection which they usually demand/request before they make their appearance. On two separate occasions here, they protested at a deceased soldier's funeral, which spawned a lawsuit by the county against them for flag desecration and child endangerment. The case eventually was dismissed due to lack of funds from the county. In the other case they were scheduled to protest a local high school which had planned a gay/bi/lesbian/trans support rally or event. Westboro demanded...not requested..demanded special protection from the police department, who refused it and told them "You are adults and are afraid of some high school kids?"...(the high school is also well known for gang activity..)..Their (Westboro) protest lasted about 10 minutes..They were largely ignored, and away they went. It is however, a sad irony that they largely protest the deaths of the people who provided the very freedom that allows them to do so in the first place..

[elian]

I do think it is a disgrace that they protest at funerals but I will only tell you this. They serve as a catalyst in the community. They protested our church for supporting "Jim In Bold" a documentary film about the life of gay teen Jim Wheeler. Many more people in the community came out to support screening the movie as a result of the outrageousness of WBC. It was very satisfying to see our 800 people in a normally conservative area deciding to celebrate diversity versus their 7-10 people spewing messages of shock and hate.

I will second the fact that they fund their "ministry" by legal claims of "assault" if a bystander is provoked into a confrontation. This speech by Nate Phelps offered a lot of insight into the motivations of the group.

http://www.atheistnexus.org/page/nate-phelps-2009-aa-speech

I can only imagine that WBC did not want people to see the film because it would put a human face on something they would rather remain a faceless entity. It's a lot harder to demonize being "gay" once you realize that LGBT people act pretty much JUST LIKE YOU.

[biblkman]

I agree with realist....how dare they ! These people like the people who lost family in war are mourning and trying to bury loved ones...and these assholes have no sense or regard to human suffering that they would take a sleezy opportunity to push there religious beliefs or ideals on anyone in a time of great loss.

I am an atheist but respect the opinions and faith of different religions....but that church and its members are ridiculous.

I know a lot of Christians, Baptists,witnesses,and non denomination religious people who are appalled and outraged by this hate groupe posing as a religious group.

As a freethinker and a humanist I hope someday people like these idiots no longer exist...but its up to us to make them extinct by combating there kind of hate wherever they go

[biblkman]

Drew...I agree free speech should always be protected but these assholes hide behind that, where do we drew the line there's a difference in free speech and an out right insult and psychological assault these people do.

I'm for gay marriage but if a man and a women get married no gay or lesbian couple should have the right and privilege to picket , protest and yell things to the newly wed couple, just as if it were a gay or lesbian couple no one should have the right to say what they want if they do they should legally have to shout and protest from afar! If we keep letting shit like this slide it will get out of hand like with this church, as a freethinker I fully believe in expression...but some and a lot of expression needs a filter

[DuckiesDarling]

Unfortunately, they have defended their right in court to protest at funerals. Doesn't mean I support what they say but I do support their right to say it. Then again, I don't just say I support free speech when it's something I want to hear.

[void()]

Unfortunately, they have defended their right in court to protest at funerals. Doesn't mean I support what they say but I do support their right to say it. Then again, I don't just say I support free speech when it's something I want to hear.

My momma always taught us this, "you're free to say what ever tickles your fancy. I'm also free to not listen if I choose not to. Enjoy the freedom." She told us to tell them with a smile, nod and walk on.

Came in handy when KKK members ran a recruiting drive in our town.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

It doesnt matter what a person's religion is, or Isnt. And i do agree about freedom of speech, but when a so called church uses public funds for their hate, it is wrong. Ya see...non-profit organizations get Tax free status, and are tax exempt. They can get reduced flights and travel all over the world, can get reduced and some times free lodging, reduced or free meals in select resturants, and benefits in businesses. They rely on these donations from people all over the world, that's how they continue their bullshit. Its on thing to blame a soldiers being killed on the hand of God, or for some legistration going thru to allow same sex folks to marry, but to blame innocent children for some maniac's insanity? Do any of us see the validity or sense in this?
I hope to Spirits not....

It may be their rights to protest, to spout their poison. I have to respect the Right to do so, but I dont have to respect the folks Doing it...Like the saying goes "Dont hate the game, hate the players"
Cat

[pepperjack]

I watched the movie "The Hamburg Cell" last night, so I have a special disgust for religious zealots today and for the next couple of days.

1. The bad news is I am pretty sure that when religious zealots die they fail to realize how disgustingly wrong they were in life. The 9/11 perpetrators expected to be lead by the hand by two beautiful virgins into heaven in the moments after they murdered and died (apparently it is written somewhere, so it must be true). But all the evidence points to nothing at all happening after we die - the brain ceases to function and so all sense and thought ends. So too will Fred Phelps never realize in death how full of shit he is.

2. The good news is that religious zealots can be exposed as nasty idiots by science-based thoughtful reasoning when they are alive and after they are dead. A simple example... What do Muhamed Atta and Fred Phelps have in common? Answer, a lot of things, but just one is they both believe in a god that thinks human slavery can be justified.

3. Unless Westboro has crossed a line recently, I don't think they should be labelled an official hate group. I think we have to be very careful about what we consider to be "hate speech" and thus a "hate group". We owe so much to the concept of "free speech" (often called "freedom of expression" in Canada and I think the UK) - it really is the cornerstone of so much of our high quality of life in the west. If Westboro advocates violence then yes, they are a hate group. But I think Westboro is careful to not cross that line - they are cowards at heart, leaving the real nasty work, including death and torture, for their imaginary god.

As an atheist I kindof like Westboro - they do so much of the work for me. I think moderate theists should appreciate them for the same reason. Best to let them spew is my thinking.

- Drew :paw:


" But ALL the evidence points...?" http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/26/books/dr-eben-alexanders-tells-of-near-death-in-proof-of-heaven.html?_r=0 Typical, arrogant, misleading, atheistic statement! I think YOU'RE full of shit & due for the same rude awakening as Phelps & his bunch!

[darkeyes]

" But ALL the evidence points...?" http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/26/books/dr-eben-alexanders-tells-of-near-death-in-proof-of-heaven.html?_r=0 Typical, arrogant, misleading, atheistic statement! I think YOU'RE full of shit & due for the same rude awakening as Phelps & his bunch!O Pepper... u r silly sometimes... it's a view, nothing more.. and I agree with it... we don't know wether it is misleading and full of poo... isn't arrogant at all... and until we pop our clogs we can't say 1 way or t'other... and even then if he is rite..we won't know will we? Wen I was at school a Kirk Minister 1ce told us that wen we die we lose all consciousness of our earth bound life once in heaven (dunno bout hell...most dont think hell exists.. cept mayb on earth).. have heard it sed several times since out of the gobs of Ministers and Priests among others... so in a sense we wont know even then if ther is an afterlife then either if wot he and others say is true... seems an odd view but then ther r lots of odd views wen it comes 2 belief in a God or Gods...

[pepperjack]

O Pepper... u r silly sometimes... it's a view, nothing more.. and I agree with it... we don't know wether it is misleading and full of poo... isn't arrogant at all... and until we pop our clogs we can't say 1 way or t'other... and even then if he is rite..we won't know will we? Wen I was at school a Kirk Minister 1ce told us that wen we die we lose all consciousness of our earth bound life once in heaven (dunno bout hell...most dont think hell exists.. cept mayb on earth).. have heard it sed several times since out of the gobs of Ministers and Priests among others... so in a sense we wont know even then if ther is an afterlife then either if wot he and others say is true... seems an odd view but then ther r lots of odd views wen it comes 2 belief in a God or Gods...

I'm "silly" for expressing my "view?" It IS more! It comes across as definitive, authoritative....."ALL the facts....." & that is extremely arrogant! I shared just a portion of the alternate facts & I have the personal knowledge of experiences that lend credence to those alternate facts. You're silly for being in such serious denial but then isn't that the bottom line of atheism?

[void()]

It doesnt matter what a person's religion is, or Isnt. And i do agree about freedom of speech, but when a so called church uses public funds for their hate, it is wrong. Ya see...non-profit organizations get Tax free status, and are tax exempt. They can get reduced flights and travel all over the world, can get reduced and some times free lodging, reduced or free meals in select resturants, and benefits in businesses. They rely on these donations from people all over the world, that's how they continue their bullshit. Its on thing to blame a soldiers being killed on the hand of God, or for some legistration going thru to allow same sex folks to marry, but to blame innocent children for some maniac's insanity? Do any of us see the validity or sense in this?
I hope to Spirits not....

It may be their rights to protest, to spout their poison. I have to respect the Right to do so, but I dont have to respect the folks Doing it...Like the saying goes "Dont hate the game, hate the players"
Cat

I much agree with you. I have concluded that I'm probably atheist, and humanist. So what?
That is not an invitation for anyone to convert me to anything. You'd be eternity and a day
trying, I'd still not convert.

I won't bother trying to convert anyone either. I know better. Does not mean I cannot chuckle
and think your way funny, insane, flat out stupid. I may even tell you so if you act stupid
about it. Don't want me calling you stupid? Don't act it.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

I'm not trying to convert you, Void. Pervert you? Yes, I'd do that, but I'd never try to change you, or anyone else. Thats not my lot on life to do, to change people. I love people just as they are. I may not have to Like what a good person does, but I do have to respect it, What these fools do is cause Disrespect for people, so therefore I hold nothing but contempt for them, and those who follow their idea and ideals.
*Pets Voids head and skritches his back* B'sides, you's bootiful just like you is..:} Muahs to your furry cheek..:}
Cat

[Brian]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts pepperjack. But if you think there is real evidence for the existence of heaven and hell, and that article your referenced has it, then you are wrong. I am not being arrogant. I am just going with the evidence or the vacuum thereof - there is no evidence for the existence of heaven and hell. These are mythical places. Stories of people seeing lights or meeting their god (or innocent-looking young girls in skimpy summer dresses, as some claim) when they were unconscious or in other states of brain abnormality are evidence of nothing - the brain does abnormal things when in a state of abnormality.

I dreamed last night, I have memories of these dreams. Were those dreams evidence of real places and events? No. Then why would we think the memories of someone who has been unconscious or in a coma are memories of real places and events?

And I don't know why you are so angry about it. But let it all out I guess...

- Drew :paw:

[pepperjack]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts pepperjack. But if you think there is real evidence for the existence of heaven and hell, and that article your referenced has it, then you are wrong. I am not being arrogant. I am just going with the evidence or the vacuum thereof - there is no evidence for the existence of heaven and hell. These are mythical places. Stories of people seeing lights or meeting their god (or innocent-looking young girls in skimpy summer dresses, as some claim) when they were unconscious or in other states of brain abnormality are evidence of nothing - the brain does abnormal things when in a state of abnormality.

I dreamed last night, I have memories of these dreams. Were those dreams evidence of real places and events? No. Then why would we think the memories of someone who has been unconscious or in a coma are memories of real places and events?

And I don't know why you are so angry about it. But let it all out I guess...

- Drew :paw:


I think there is very compelling 'circumstantial evidence' of some sort of 'afterlife.' And that's all your opinion is based on, circumstantial evidence; and if you're not being arrogant, then I'm not wrong. In our courts of law, murderers have been convicted on circumstantial evidence. I guess you missed the part where the man being referenced was not only an objective scientist but also a neurosurgeon, an expert on the functions of the human brain, something you are not. According to the original prognosis by his doctors, if by some chance he were to emerge from his coma, he would be a vegetable. And also, the particular form of meningitis he was suffering from affected a portion of the brain that controlled dreaming & memories,meaning he would have neither! These are 'facts' I discovered while following this story; if you think they are false....then go after him & the media. But like I said, this experience is only a portion of the evidence which he reinforces by claiming these type of stories have become "tripe." And yes, there was some venting going on. Know-it-all arrogance tends to trigger that in me.