Falling Behind

[tenni]

Canada is falling behind on poverty and inequality.

"Canada isn't living up to its potential or its reputation when it comes to societal issues like poverty, government and inequality, according to the Conference Board of Canada.

The group gave Canada a 'B', good for a 7th place ranking out of 17 developed countries, but it said the "middle-of-the-pack" ranking leaves room for improvement.

Getting an 'A' at the top of the rankings were the Scandinavian nations (Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland) as well as the Netherlands and Austria. At the bottom were Japan and the U.S., both getting a 'D' ranking.

Inequality was a major factor in Canada’s low ranking, according to the report. Canada ranked a 'C' on both income inequality and the gender income gap."

........The study notes that due to the tax system and transfers to the poor, income inequality is 27 per cent lower than it otherwise would be, and without government benefits and taxes, poverty rates would be 23 per cent, compared to the current 12 per cent.However, the political system didn’t get a free pass. Voter turnout and confidence in Parliament were both rated 'C'.

Lafleur calls the report “myth-busting” of the idea of Canada as a “kindler, gentler nation,” saying that self-image is “based largely on a narrow Canada-U.S. comparison,” and that the U.S. ranked dead last among the 17 countries ranked.

The report wasn’t without a few positive marks for Canada – the conference board highlighted acceptance of diversity and life satisfaction as strengths.
Crime was also an area in which Canada was given good marks, with lower rates of homicides and burglaries than most of the other 17 countries.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/canada-falling-behind-poverty-inequality-says-report-085522557--finance.html

Do you think that your society is falling behind, maintaining or improving compared to other countries standards discussed here?

[void()]

I think it really does not matter much beyond you obviously pining for a spectacle of a debate. As someone whom lives in the Appalachia area of America, it seems I've spent most of my natural life below federal standards of poverty. This means at times we've been so poor we had to forgo importing dirt. Stock market crashed? Never felt a thing, all the same old poor is poor.

But as I said, I don't think makes a whit of difference one way or the other. Seems you are indeed falling behind though, in adequate means to stir up feces. Try again when you can get more original material.

[BiDaveDtown]

I think it really does not matter much beyond you obviously pining for a spectacle of a debate. As someone whom lives in the Appalachia area of America, it seems I've spent most of my natural life below federal standards of poverty. This means at times we've been so poor we had to forgo importing dirt. Stock market crashed? Never felt a thing, all the same old poor is poor. But as I said, I don't think makes a whit of difference one way or the other. Seems you are indeed falling behind though, in adequate means to stir up feces. Try again when you can get more original material. Bwhahahaha! You described the OP and his posts perfectly! ;)

[tenni]

ha ha Bidave
Void
Well, how much more original can it be when it is a study about my country and other countries? As far as stirring up feces...I look at it as intelligent discussion. Some can. Some are only capable of personal attack and bitch.

[BiDaveDtown]

Some are only capable of personal attack and bitch. Tenni, you are describing yourself here.

[falcondfw]

ha ha Bidave
Void
Well, how much more original can it be when it is a study about my country and other countries? As far as stirring up feces...I look at it as intelligent discussion. Some can. Some are only capable of personal attack and bitch.

Tenni, maybe if some of your other posts had less of a negative implication toward one country, people would consider what you are doing to be intelligent discussion.

[void()]

As falcon points out, had your other threads not portrayed you in negative light, perhaps I'd consider anything said to be of intellect. As it is all I can perceive is that you continually debase and degrade others with seeming clever verbal/written bait and switch attacks. Apologies for not desiring being barbed or harpooned over a subject with little merit. Of course, you would roll out Canada's superiority in dealing with whatever the subject may be, and degrade folks in other countries as inferiors.

Pardon my quaint dabble of vulgarity a moment. Get the fuck over yourself already. I'm not the center of any universe except the limited one I imagine and manifest for me, family. Figure you're much the same buddy. Last I checked, unlike Superman, I need to put my pants on one leg at a time. I would hazard guessing you do so as well. If you would climb down off that high horse of yours, put away the trolling line/s, you might actually find the conversation you're looking for. Otherwise I will call a spade a spade, thank you very much.

A gentle reminder here, to give you some context. Dead is dead. Dead does not care about the colors you wear or piss on. Dead does not care if you live in a gilded cage or a ramshackle hovel. You're still ultimately dead, and you dead is all dead cares about. Surprise, we all through the ages seem to unsurprisingly ... die. So, if you want to have 'more toys', 'bigger ego', whatever that's all fine and good but remember dead doesn't care. And you can't play with the toys once you're dead, and nobody will stroke or stoke your ego when dead. Oddly, you can't take it with you.


Editing note and a bit of clarification regarding the paragraph discussing dead. There is NO malice in me toward tenni. I used the word you, in the general sense of all mankind & womankind. Everyone lives, everyone dies. That's about as brass tacks and commonly accepted as fact as it comes. There was also no intention within what I wrote here to cause or seem threatening or menacing toward anyone. If Drew feels that is the case he may discuss it with me privately, or outright ban me. I think he'll see that it is as I say though. He's fairly intelligent about such matters.

[tenni]

Since this thread has a focus involving seventeen countries, the issues of poverty and inequality within a country have no interest to these posters other than one poster's comment. They would rather break the site rule 2 and do personal attacks.

Congrats to the Scandanavia, Austria and Netherlands! Pull up your socks Canada!

I think that Canada has become a less gentle country over the past eight years under the present government but I'm not sure how. It references our tax system. There has been a fair amount of complaints about government but little concern about democracy being deminished. Just yesterday, it was announced that the Conservatives admitted to robo call techniques that may have muddied our democratic election process. The attack ads by the Conservatives in the past eight years has nearly destroyed the Liberals and altered the political landscape. Well the Liberals may have fallen out of touch with the voters but certainly attack ads outside of an election may have had an impact. The NDP have risen to Opposition party level but the left leaning parties are in disarray while the right have united under the Conservatives. The various devious methods of slipping in omnibus bills under the guise of a budget have not helped. The use of prorogation both federally and in my province has been used to avoid facing the Opposition in both parliaments. In the case of Ontario, to try to cool down a probable election and replace the government leader who screwed up. I and others had not heard of prorogation more than three years ago. A normal parliamentary process of ending a session when all bills had been dealt with is now used to avoid parliamentary democracy.

The "Idle No More" movement based on Indigenous demands and environmental issues has grown stronger. Where I live the movement has not died and this Friday there are plans for art protest during a local art crawl. The government's Prime Minister reluctantly meet with First Nations but ignored any public comments when Parliament re opened. Idle No More does seem to have toned down but there is still discontent along with poverty issues. How First Nations get into such poor living conditions are not clear to me.

Szepplin, I'm Canadian and not British. Perhaps you meant CBC not BBC. The answer is no I am not trying for a job in the CBC nor CTV. Thanks anyway. Nice unintended compliment. I wonder how many of these complaining posters even had a clue about what I wrote about my country. I suspect none.

[falcondfw]

Since this thread has a focus involving seventeen countries, the issues of poverty and inequality within a country have no interest to these posters other than one poster's comment. They would rather break the site rule 2 and do personal attacks.

Congrats to the Scandanavia, Austria and Netherlands! Pull up your socks Canada!

I think that Canada has become a less gentle country over the past eight years under the present government but I'm not sure how. It references our tax system. There has been a fair amount of complaints about government but little concern about democracy being deminished. Just yesterday, it was announced that the Conservatives admitted to robo call techniques that may have muddied our democratic election process. The attack ads by the Conservatives in the past eight years has nearly destroyed the Liberals and altered the political landscape. Well the Liberals may have fallen out of touch with the voters but certainly attack ads outside of an election may have had an impact. The NDP have risen to Opposition party level but the left leaning parties are in disarray while the right have united under the Conservatives. The various devious methods of slipping in omnibus bills under the guise of a budget have not helped. The use of prorogation both federally and in my province has been used to avoid facing the Opposition in both parliaments. In the case of Ontario, to try to cool down a probable election and replace the government leader who screwed up. I and others had not heard of prorogation more than three years ago. A normal parliamentary process of ending a session when all bills had been dealt with is now used to avoid parliamentary democracy.

The "Idle No More" movement based on Indigenous demands and environmental issues has grown stronger. Where I live the movement has not died and this Friday there are plans for art protest during a local art crawl. The government's Prime Minister reluctantly meet with First Nations but ignored any public comments when Parliament re opened. Idle No More does seem to have toned down but there is still discontent along with poverty issues. How First Nations get into such poor living conditions are not clear to me.

Szepplin, I'm Canadian and not British. Perhaps you meant CBC not BBC. The answer is no I am not trying for a job in the CBC nor CTV. Thanks anyway. Nice unintended compliment. I wonder how many of these complaining posters even had a clue about what I wrote about my country. I suspect none.

Tenni,
I want you to understand something. The only thing I am personally attacking about you is that every post you seem to make or thread you seem to start portrays America in the worst light possible.
Indeed, congratulations to Scandinavia and the others, but what were the measurements for that successful criteria? A social safety net? Americans do not believe in handouts from the government, not true Americans. They believe in the sweat on their brow. The effort they put in. And their intelligence.
Or maybe how well they support "the green agenda"? Doing the best for the planet and the children of our country is great, but when it is based on science that has been proven to be faked for political reasons? No true American would buy into that. We believe in honesty. Telling the truth. Doing what it takes to live an honorable life. Notice, I said TRUE Americans.
As for the tax system. Some of the Scandinavian countries pay in the 60 - 70% range. Is that what you want? It is not what most true Americans want and it is not what our founding fathers stood for. This country did not have ANY income tax until the 16th (I think) Amendment in the early 20th century. So how did we get through The American Revolution, The War of 1812, The French and Indian War, The Spanish American Ware, The Civil War, etc. without an income tax? Don't know. Don't care. We did. Period.
This country has become a land of socialist redistribution from the producers to those who refuse to produce. Safety nets are one thing. 2 YEARS! of unemployment benefits are quite another. The mistake Conservatives made? agreeing to call it 99 weeks. It has a heck of a lot more impact when you realize that is almost 2 years!
As for many of those who get home refinance loan breaks or student loan breaks? You knew damn well what you were signing when you did. Them's the breaks. Grow up and swallow your salt with your sugar OR GET A FREAKIN JOB!
Tenni, I am upset with how you have characterized America. But I am more upset with what we have allowed ourselves to become.

[void()]

Since this thread has a focus involving seventeen countries, the issues of poverty and inequality within a country have no interest to these posters other than one poster's comment. They would rather break the site rule 2 and do personal attacks.

It seems quite obvious you are saying I am attacking you personally. It also seems quite obvious due to a lack of Drew reprimanding, or condemning me, that what you say is a fallacy. Drew owns, and administrates the site. As of yet, he has not made any gesture or communication with me to suggest I am attacking you personally.

Allow me to clarify a point which I had thought eloquently articulated previously. In my opinion it seems you are the type of person whom uses verbal and, or written bait and switch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait-and-switch) tactics in order to degrade others you communicate with. Further, in my opinion it would so appear you do so to stoke your ego (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ego%20stoking).

I apologize that further in my opinion you do not merit such from someone like myself. It would seem to me then, it is quite my problem, as I can not comprehend your vast greatness due to my own. So, no I am in no means attacking you personally, merely stating my opinion. We are free to do that here, as far as I know. If not, then why do you seem to persist in positing your own opinion here?

[void()]

Tenni, you can stop worrying over if I am personally attacking you or not. I am going to take my own advice to heart. You have a good one, whatever it is or will be. You got every right to say anything you want. I have every right to not hear you say it. Enjoy! =)

[Gearbox]

How DARE you Tenni! How dare you make threads about international politics that don't show the UK to be the besty bestest best at everything in the world! Your obviously a terrorist Hell bent on making Brits feel bad! You nasty man you!Threads that DON'T put UK in a fantastic light should be banned IMO! Bring in George Orwells 1984, oh yes. He got it right!lolSarcasm aside.... the UK is getting worse realy! I (and many others) don't like where we are heading (or got to) at all! The unemployed are being punished for the lack of jobs as usual. But now the ill and disabled are not safe from the goverment shears! Disgust is rampant here, and I shall quit my 'non-voter' stance to help get this conservetive gov OUT! I've learned my lesson!The UK will drop in stats very quickly, very soon IMO.

[darkeyes]

Tenni,
.
As for the tax system. Some of the Scandinavian countries pay in the 60 - 70% range. Is that what you want? It is not what most true Americans want and it is not what our founding fathers stood for....


Interesting u should raise that... the tax peeps pay is relative... income tax is high in Scandinavia... no question of it.. so are indirect taxes.. yet such is the state of Scandinavia that their general standard of living, quality of health care, housing etc outstrips anything the US has to offer.. and makes the UK almost look like a 3rd world country.. it isn't what we pay which is important it is what is done with it in.... the average Scandinavian is more prosperous than the average Briton or American... they still have poverty but not on the grand scale of the US or increasingly, of the UK. The British government is implementing the kind of policies u would love Falcon... and the fat cats are becoming obese. the poor are gagging for air and the rest of us are being squeezed to make sure that the fat cats become even more obscenely obese.

As for going out and getting jobs... jobs are one thing.. what jobs? Minimum wage 15 hour and less a week jobs miles from home? Needing 3 or 4 such jobs just to make ends meet? The poor being forced, yes, forced from their homes, having benefit cut and paying more tax because they have a spare bedroom... prosperous councils forcing poor people out of their homes and into bed and breakfasts up to a hundred miles away in poor areas so they can attract prosperous people to come and take up the homes vacated? Successful hospitals in poor areas being penalised and being forced to lose services to prop up failing hospital trusts in neighbouring, more prosperous areas... this is Tory capitalist Britain... and even if north of the border devolved government can do and does much to minimise the misery, especially in health, it cannot escape all of the imposition of misery and poverty imposed upon it by central government..

..and governments don't give hand outs.. they return to the people in benefit what the people have paid should they hit hard times.. that is why we have social security.. people pay tax and national insurance to protect themselves from ill health or unemployment... they pay for themselves and their families, and they and their families are entitled to a return on the monies they have paid for such hard times... Tories have a habit of calling them scroungers and some are.. yet few scrounge very successfully and if I scrounged such a pittance I would not consider it worth my time...compared to parasitical robbery by the rich of the poor and the middle classes it is almost nothing... fraud by the poor on the welfare system is as nothing compared to the thousands of billions stolen by the rich in tax evasion... arguably even much of tax avoidance which is a legal way of not paying their dues...

...and if, in next year's referendum, the people of my rather cold little country decide to vote the become independent to free themselves of Tory self serving cruelty and robbery, I wouldn't blame them one bit.. but my heart would go out to the people of the rest of the UK because the English, the Welsh and the people of Northern Ireland would have imposed upon them a Tory hegemony which would take decades to break.. or until at least in the case of the Welsh, they too decided to go down the Scottish route once they had had enough and out of a sense of self preservation, and they too decide to leave the rump UK and make it on their own thus leaving the people of the North England at the mercy of their southern infinitely more prosperous.and healthy brethren... indeed, sometimes I wonder if indeed that is the Tory plan... I have nothing to say about Northern Ireland which is a bit of a mystery to me and a part of the UK of which I lack understanding because of the sectarian division.. like most who are not of that little part of the UK... it is truly a stand alone little country where normal politics and rules do not apply... and how it would go and where is indeed in the lap of the Gods...

[tenni]

“ the average Scandinavian is more prosperous than the average Briton “


Yes darkeyes. The average Scandinavian is also more prosperous than the average Canuck as well. So, are the Dutch and Austrians.


How is prosperity being evaluated in this annual study? Well, if we calm down enough to actually move from screaming accusations, we might note the metrics more carefully.


We don’t have all the metrics that are being used but based on the article we can see some of the metrics that place the Scandinavian countries, Netherlands and Austrians at the top are:



income inequality
tackling poverty
income mobility (generational improvement on income)
poverty rate
child poverty rate
working age poverty
voter turn out
confidence in government
-acceptance of diversity
life satisfaction
homicide rate
burglary crime rate



How do we value these metrics?


Is paying less tax while not being able to economically move from poverty what our countries' voters want?


Do we want child poverty and to prevent people from getting out of poverty generation to generation?


Do we want most of our working people to spend their working lives in poverty while a very small percentage (the infamous 1%?) live in luxury?


Do we want to live satisfied lives or miserable working lives?


Do we want all people in our society to be equal regardless of race, religion, gender, age, sexuality, physical and mental ability etc?


Do we want to be safe from murder and burglaries?


Do we want to feel that our government is doing things to benefit us all?


Do we turn out to vote in large numbers because we feel involved in government decisions?

These questions are being asked of those of us who live in the top seventeen wealthiest countries. They are not being asked of poor countries like Haiti.

[elian]

I cannot control the actions of an entire nation. One of the tenets of my own personal philosophy is that information pollution is killing us. We are living in an always-on 24x7 information connected society but the human mind cannot parse that much information. All of the news stories (and advertising share) clamor for our attention - screaming louder and louder about how the world is going to end, life is going to be miserable, etc. etc. - funny how they never manage to pull a GOOD inspirational story out of their ass, isn't it?

In your life, you have a certain sphere of personal influence and a certain amount of energy to expend per day. It is a good thing to try to reach beyond your boundaries but if you continuously try to reach for the wrong reasons it is very easy to burn yourself out.

When I was younger I wanted to end all suffering, even now I still don't like to see people suffer unjustly but then it dawned on me that there will ALWAYS be suffering in THIS world, it is a catalyst for change. We would not be here if we were not supposed to grow and change.

To avoid burning out when I hear of a bad news story like this I always ask myself, "Does this really affect me?" "Is there something I can do to change the circumstances?" "Is there something I can do to show support?" "If I take action, is it for my benefit?" "Is it for my benefit only or does it also benefit my community?"

In a world that is constantly clamoring for my attention the answers to those questions determine just how much interest and energy I put into something.

We've come a hell of a long way from the tribe to the village to the town to the city to the metropolis to the country and world - Back in olden times traveling 10 miles in one day was a "long drive" .. I wonder if the human mind has managed to adapt to a "global" society yet? I wonder if that's not why we all seem to be struggling so hard?

Sometimes I just like to go off the grid, go for a walk and remember what is like to be in harmony with nature.

Living life successfully is a lot like learning how to dance with a partner. You can learn many interesting and wonderful things by studying one part of nature under a microscope, but you aren't going to learn the rhythm of those parts working together in any lab.

[elian]

Long story short - surveys are a dime a dozen and they predict anything at all they want to predict. I don't think you are falling behind if you do your personal best to show love and support for yourself, your family, your friends and your community.

[tenni]

Long story short - surveys are a dime a dozen and they predict anything at all they want to predict. I don't think you are falling behind if you do your personal best to show love and support for yourself, your family, your friends and your community.

I find it a bit fascinating the numbers from it seems one country who dismiss scientific study methods. I've read it sometimes on this site as a reason to dismiss study results from some posters here. The metrics of: Doing your personal best to show love, support for yourself, your family, your friends and your community are good values. However the study is about income, poverty and income inequality. The metrics that you are pointing out are even less clear to measure than income, voting in elections, multi generational poverty, etc.

[elian]

OK, but what would you like me to do to solve the problem? Reading a study just to sit around in despair WISHING things could be better serves no valuable purpose. I would rather go to a place in my local community that serves breakfast for the hungry, reads to children, helps "poor" people with legal issues and install a wifi router for them so that they can continue to help..

John


I find it a bit fascinating the numbers from it seems one country who dismiss scientific study methods. I've read it sometimes on this site as a reason to dismiss study results from some posters here. The metrics of: Doing your personal best to show love, support for yourself, your family, your friends and your community are good values. However the study is about income, poverty and income inequality. The metrics that you are pointing out are even less clear to measure than income, voting in elections, multi generational poverty, etc.

[darkeyes]

OK, but what would you like me to do to solve the problem? Reading a study just to sit around in despair WISHING things could be better serves no valuable purpose. I would rather go to a place in my local community that serves breakfast for the hungry, reads to children, helps "poor" people with legal issues and install a wifi router for them so that they can continue to help..

JohnThere is intrinsically nothing wrong with what u would rather do, Elian.. they are in a small community great things.. yet these are the very things that people do which governments rely on to avoid making the great decisions to better a people as a whole... they rely on individuals and small groups of people to make the time and effort, often with their own money and resources to prevent the worst off from drowning in a sea of state indifference... and that is all well and good.. yet, conversely what it does is to hold back progress of a whole people to have a better life.. it disguises the scope of a problem and how serious the effects of government indifference and negligence.

Of course we should all help where we can, either by financial contribution and physical effort too by doing our bit to help those around us in our own communities... but reading makes us aware and studies however imperfect are things which help us become aware and by being aware we can make others aware, and have them alongside us in alerting the wider world to the inequalities, the poverty, the problems of our small communities and to shame central or state governments into acting and doing what it they are supposed to do... work for the benefit of all, not simply ignore the majority and do what it can for the few...

..of course work in ur community... that is important.. far too few do.. but don't think that is all u can do.. u can motivate and act, and with motivation and action in our small communities we make small waves which become greater waves as others farther afield, many with the same problems do the same and inspired by ur example, begin to stir too and a great wave can in time become a tidal wave of progress which sweeps out the misery and brings about a great change which eliminates the inequalities, the hunger and the misery heaped on the least able to defend themselves... from little acorns doth great oaks grow, Elian...

[tenni]

Good point Elian
I spent decades working with lower socio economic families as part of my career. Some did seem multi generational poor and worse dysfunctional family structures that made it difficult for children to escape. Values certainly played a role but there seemed to be bigger things keeping them in poverty. Its great to contribute and role models are very important to help break the cycles of poverty. However, so does our societal belief structures. If the society believes in equality and spends its taxes to benefit all citizens that is quite different than proposing an individual take care of yourself philosophy at a government level. There is not much wrong with individualism but it seems to need a balance for the society to prosper and score high on the metrics of the study. The community aspect of society as a whole seems to make all prosper, be happier with the government function and other aspects mentioned in the study. The Scandinavian and Dutch seem to have a better balance in some areas than Canucks. Canucks like to think that we are a gentle society but cracks in that societal belief are showing. I'm not sure about the societal structure of the Austrians.

[elian]

I think community based action groups do a lot of good because they are tailored to the community. None of them are a panacea. Although the state is capable of doing good work sometimes it seems to get in its own way and drown in institutional bureaucracy. Smaller groups are more agile and more of the resources can go where they count. I think we need a mix of both.