The Gun Pipeline

[tenni]

This is a very inter government serious problem: cities, provinces, states and countries. It would be good if they all could work for the good of all citizens of both countries. There seems to be so much selfishness at the cost of lives.

At least 70 per cent of all guns used in Toronto crimes are smuggled from the U.S., mostly from states with lax gun purchase laws that make it easy to buy a pistol in a pawnshop, at a gun show or in a parking lot.


Waiting at the end of the supply chain, where comparatively strict Canadian laws make gun possession difficult, Toronto criminals desperate for firepower — for protection, status, intimidation or worse — are willing to pay top dollar for economy brands of semi-automatics, like the gun the Star bought.


“You can get cheap handguns here in the States, and it doesn’t seem to matter to the end purchasers in Toronto what kind of guns they are. The criminals up there just want a gun. It doesn’t matter if the thing’s 40 years old,” Special Agent Mark Jackson of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, told the Star.


The Star scoured court cases on both sides of the border; made applications before a judge for exhibits and attended gun shows; interviewed pawnshop owners and police officers; and obtained previously unreleased data that reveal a state-by-state breakdown of where Ontario crime guns originate in the U.S. Half come from states along the I-75.


The lucrative trade — a gun bought for $200 in Georgia or Michigan can sell for more than 10 times as much in Toronto — involves suppliers out for fast money and border mules hiding guns in gas tanks and behind dashboards, driving their smuggled weapons along Highway 401 to buyers, even renters, many of them kids.


“Without the importing of (handguns) there would be . . . far fewer woundings, killings and charges for possession of them in the hands of the ultimate criminals who use them,” Windsor judge Joseph Donohue said last year before he sentenced a gun smuggler to three years in prison.


In the past 12 months, in venues sometimes crowded with innocent bystanders, the bullets have been wayward and indiscriminate.
And while violent crime rates, such as homicide, have fallen over time, the rate of youth accused of gun crimes rose nearly 50 per cent between 2002 and 2008, according to Department of Justice statistics obtained by the Star.


Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky, Ohio and Michigan all have one thing in common: they are intersected by Interstate 75, which runs north to the Detroit-Windsor border crossing and Highway 401.


In 2011, Michigan ranked first with 69 crime guns traced to that state. It was the fifth year in a row that the state topped the list. Next came Florida with 56, Ohio with 41 and Georgia with 38.


According to a 2010 report from an organization of U.S. city mayors seeking gun law reform, Georgia leads all other states in exported crime guns. The report says it’s because the state has lax gun laws.


Armslist.com hosts over 73,000 ads for firearms, and 94 per cent of them are offered by private sellers not required to conduct background checks, according to Mayors Against Illegal Guns.



http://www.thestar.com/news/investigations/2013/04/12/star_investigation_star_reporters_buy_cheap_us_gun _no_id_required.html




THE SERIES: THE GUN PIPELINE
Today: The buy
NEXT WEEK
Thursday: The brokers
Friday: The mules
Saturday: The guns

[tenni]

14724

[Young pussy and dope]

This is a very inter government serious problem: cities, provinces, states and countries. It would be good if they all could work for the good of all citizens of both countries. There seems to be so much selfishness at the cost of lives Neither country will do jack shit and even if the Canadian government did it would not actually accomplish anything. The Canadian newspaper is ignorant to the fact that most guns that are smuggled or brought into Canada are not from the United States but are from Mexico. Or perhaps they are too afraid to actually investigate this? It's the original poster going on his usual insane rants about how he hates the United States and Canada is just perfect. :rolleyes:

[goldenfinger]

Neither country will do jack shit and even if the Canadian government did it would not actually accomplish anything. The Canadian newspaper is ignorant to the fact that most guns that are smuggled or brought into Canada are not from the United States but are from Mexico. Or perhaps they are too afraid to actually investigate this? It's the original poster going on his usual insane rants about how he hates the United States and Canada is just perfect. :rolleyes:

I was watching 60 min on telly a while ago about the drug problem in Mexico, and most of the guns used in Mexico comes from New Mexico, US.

[4_oral_fun]

More people are killed every year by hammers, knives, drunk drivers, car accidents but you will never hear about that because it doesn't fit the agenda. Let's enforce the laws we have, throw away the bums that break them. If all this about Toronto is true, then it is proof that when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. I have grown up around them and so have my children, respect and safety have been taught from the beginning. Somebody once said they were doing a 50 year study, they had a gun behind glass that was loaded, locked and cocked and had not killed anybody yet.

[tenni]

"brought into Canada are not from the United States but are from Mexico."
Actually, you will have to provide proof of this. If you go to the web link it shows video interviews with US gun shop owners where it has been traced that the guns used in criminal acts in Ontario were sold from these same US gun shops by their number. A US man(with a US not Mexican accent) is shown on a video selling a hand gun to the reporters in a car in a parking lot. He knew that they were Canadian when he sold them the hand gun. They(US officials and Canadian) did research back to the source of the sales and as stated evidence is that the crime guns came from shops in those US states.

from the article
"A crime gun is defined as any gun that is possessed illegally, used or suspected to have been used in a crime, or has an obliterated serial number. While most are never seized, the majority of those taken off the street and traced to the U.S. by law enforcement in 2011 came from one of six states."

from the article.
"A few blocks from the I-75, in Jonesboro, Ga., Arrowhead Pawnshop sits near the end of a strip mall.
At Arrowhead you can buy an iPod or a Bushmaster rifle or one of a large assortment of handguns. A Walther P22 with laser sight sells for $389.99, a Ruger 9-mm for $329 and a Hi-Point 9-mm for $169.

The pawnshop is known as a leading source of out-of-state crime guns, a (US) law enforcement source told the Star."


"then it is proof that when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."
Your logic is difficult to follow. Certain guns (hunting, shotgun) are not outlawed and are for sale. Criminals (often gangs) want to use guns that are not available(30 round or 100 rounds) by legal sales in Ontario. If there are no guns (hand guns) available they will use such weapons as knives or bats. Far far fewer people are injured by weapons other than guns. This is true.

The vast majority of people in my province do not own guns. The rate of gun crime is far, far lower than in the US. The rate of murders with guns is far,far lower than the US per capita. We would like our southern cousins to clean up your processes so that we do not have to suffer.

[Young pussy and dope]

I was watching 60 min on telly a while ago about the drug problem in Mexico, and most of the guns used in Mexico comes from New Mexico, US. And you believe this and the right wing American media that loves to lie to the public who swallows it hook, line, and sinker? People south of the border who are involved in violent crime or the cartels can easily get any weapons they want from the Federales or even the military in Mexico. Yes there was fast and furious which started under the Obama administration even if he now wants to revise facts and history but that is just a drop in the bucket compared to how easily cartel members can get any weapons in large quantities that they want from the Federales and Mexican military servicemembers there. They also get a lot of weapons from other central American countries and countries in South America from the exact same official people who are policemen or military servicemembers in those countries. This is all pretty well known though and has been for decades.

[Young pussy and dope]

"brought into Canada are not from the United States but are from Mexico." Actually, you will have to provide proof of this. If you go to the web link it shows interviews with US gun shop owners where it has been traced that the guns were sold from these gun shops. They did research back to the source of the sales and as stated evidence is that the crime guns came from shops in those US states. "then it is proof that when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." Your logic is difficult to follow. Criminals use guns that are not available by legal sales in Ontario. If there are no guns available they will use such weapons as knives or bats. Far far fewer people are injured by weapons other than guns. This is true. The vast majority of people in my province do not own guns. The rate of gun crime is far, far lower than in the US. The rate of murders with guns is far,far lower than the US. We would like our southern cousins to clean up your processes. We are not your allies and let's be honest Canada is the bitch of the United States and has been for decades, and it's a way too ultra PC country where nothing gets done and real criminals get a slap on the wrist and let go as is the case with psychopathic/sociopathic teenagers and children, and they get freedom, a new ID when they turn 18, go to a lax juvenile detention center that's like a resort and get told "Oh it's ok! Go out and kill again we'll even give you a new ID so you can hide!". LMAO you really think that Mexican cartel members are not in Canada or do not frequently go to Canada with guns and illegal drugs? Get real. Most of the illegal guns and weapons that are in Canada are smuggled in from Mexico and other central and south American countries. Yes it is true that if you outlaw guns only the criminal types will be able to get them, and even if you do outlaw guns or all weapons people will easily be able to get them on the black market as anything can be bought for a price.

[tenni]

We are not your allies and let's be honest Canada is the bitch of the United States and has been for decades, and it's a way too ultra PC country where nothing gets done and real criminals get a slap on the wrist and let go as is the case with psychopathic/sociopathic teenagers and children, and they get freedom, a new ID when they turn 18, go to a lax juvenile detention center that's like a resort and get told "Oh it's ok! Go out and kill again we'll even give you a new ID so you can hide!". LMAO you really think that Mexican cartel members are not in Canada or do not frequently go to Canada with guns and illegal drugs? Get real. Most of the illegal guns and weapons that are in Canada are smuggled in from Mexico and other central and south American countries. Yes it is true that if you outlaw guns only the criminal types will be able to get them, and even if you do outlaw guns or all weapons people will easily be able to get them on the black market as anything can be bought for a price.

You may want to talk to your federal and state government. Ontario works quite well with New York state. A lot of first responders from Ontario volunteered to help the people of New York city immediately after 911. We are your friends. We have the most open free trade deal existing between two countries.

Although not part of this thread, the government of Mexico makes very similar statements about the criminal acts in Mexico and where the drug crime guns come from. US states.

" even if you do outlaw guns or all weapons people will easily be able to get them on the black market as anything can be bought for a price.
Yes, that is why the article was written. To clarify (again for us the source of the guns in our gun crimes) Why not help both countries?

One of the more tragic facts is that there is a gun manufacturer in Ontario and it sells guns legally to the US distributors. Some of these guns have illegally returned to Ontario and being used as crime guns after being sold illegally in the US.

[4_oral_fun]

Crime is regional in the US, look at Boston, Chicago, Detroit, DC and along the southern border. Huntington WV wasn't too bad until the Detroit drug connection moved into that area because it is accessble to the interstae and a tristate distribution area(KY, OH, WV). You can make laws as strict as you want, law abiding citizens will be the only ones suffering, Chicago gang thugs laugh and say it won't stop them. Drug cartels in Mexico own the government, the military, police and anyone else they desire. They are supplied with guns by those people and that jackass DOJ who are falling all over themselves trying to get away from that debacle.

[IanBorthwick]

With the Republican Party holding control of the House and laying down obfuscation and lies despite the fact we KNOW where the problem lies and what is going on, they have enough monied backers to keep anything from occurring.

My prayers lie in the elections of 2014, because the Right Wing appeal is gone. Over 80% of Americans want gun control increased, and have for some time. I could point out the blocking of the appointment of a head of ATF as part of the problem, but any Neocons here would shout me down with BS on that fact before I went too very far along that line. Or any that points at the games they play, including the NRAs trumped up Truth About Sandy games they are playing now.

It's all part and parcel of the monied relying on the stupid to do as they say and help maintain control of the polite and intelligent.

[Dukota]

Well the war on drugs worked out so well....so why not keep pretending you can cure violent crime by having a war on the scary guns.
At least then Canada and the US could be a utopia like Mexico.

[goldenfinger]

And you believe this and the right wing American media that loves to lie to the public who swallows it hook, line, and sinker? People south of the border who are involved in violent crime or the cartels can easily get any weapons they want from the Federales or even the military in Mexico. Yes there was fast and furious which started under the Obama administration even if he now wants to revise facts and history but that is just a drop in the bucket compared to how easily cartel members can get any weapons in large quantities that they want from the Federales and Mexican military servicemembers there. They also get a lot of weapons from other central American countries and countries in South America from the exact same official people who are policemen or military servicemembers in those countries. This is all pretty well known though and has been for decades.

It was an Australian 60 min program, not US. Serial numbers was traced back to the US.

[OverNeath]

OH..Glad I read this post. I need to go pick up my new AR-15 and some high capacity magazines today

[4_oral_fun]

OK, IanBorthwick is drinking the California kool-aid. Typical liberal bovine scatology. Just cause he is afraid, we all should be? This society has done nothing but raise a generation of wimpy ass cry babies. It sickens me that peolpe go in and shoot up schools and so many innocent lives are ended, but outlawing firearms won't solve the sickness of society. The liberal schools want our kids to think that nobody needs to take responsibility for their actions, only the government should do that. The issues of the Bill of Rights were meant to be handled at state government levels, NOT a centralized federal levels. Every state is different and should handle their own issues like this. If your state isn't strict enough to satisfy you, move to one that does. If your state is too strict, move to one that is more free.

[tenni]

What I am reading seems to be a fair bit of rhetoric and statements about political parties rather than social issues?

A few questions for the posters.

Do you believe that guns should be resold in mall parking lots, flea markets, the internet and pawn shops to anyone without checks and balances?

Other than it being a constitutional right to bear arms, why?

As far as moving to a state that has stricter gun control laws, this article proves that guns may easily be smuggled in to the stricter state to become a crime gun.

[OverNeath]

Do you believe that guns should be resold in mall parking lots, flea markets, the internet and pawn shops to anyone without checks and balances?

Look, if there are stricter gun laws put in place,two things will be acheived.
1. Law abiding citizens will be the ONLY ones affected. It will be more difficult for law abiding citizens to purchase a firearm
2. Criminals will STILL be able to obtain firearms. They break the law,thats what criminals do,and,that includes circumventing gun laws.

To address guns beieng sold online. Legal online sites where guns are bought and sold require that guns be shipped to a Federal Firearms Licencesee and by doing so are subject to gun laws ALERADY IN PLACE.


As far as moving to a state that has stricter gun control laws, this article proves that guns may easily be smuggled in to the stricter state to become a crime gun.

Again, you are referring to CRIMINALS that do the "smuggling". Criminals will always be able to obtain firearms,regardless of ANY new or old gun laws in place. The only people that are affected by gun laws are the law abiding citizens. We have plenty of gun laws in place. The problem is..THEY ARE NOT ENFORCED.

Personally,I would never sell a firearm to anyone that I did not know very well. I've sold/traded guns with friends many times,but again,only if I know them very well.

About 15 years ago, I went to my local county sheriffs office and applied for a permit to purcase a handgun. I waited my 5 days and went back to the sheriffs office to pick up my purchase permit. There were two guys in line in front of me. The clerk informed both men that their applications had been denied. One had a felony drug charge pending,the other had domestic violence convictions.I was issued my permit. The clerk and I were talking as the permit was being notorized. She said to me..."The bad thing about those two guys is, they will still be able to get a handgun". She was right,they probabaly did. My point here is. The criminal will always find a way to arm himself,regardless of any laws prohibiting him form buying/owning a firearm. Because of these type of guys,I,the law abding gun owner,will have a more difficult time purchasing a firearm.

[12voltman59]

I would like to see one law get passed when it comes to "gun control"--for those who go and buy guns that a few months later--wind up in the possession of people who have lost their "rights" due to being legally allowed to possess firearms because they have felony criminal convictions--the person who legally purchased those firearm WEAPON or WEAPONS--then such a person faces a Minimum/Mandatory sentence of no less than ten years in 'hard time" federal PRISON--then what are obviously "straw purchases" will tend to go down--and it would also make those who are happily selling guns to those who come to them seeking firearms "off the books" think twice about being so free and easy about selling firearms to just anyone who comes along--but I know that the probability of such a strict and "harsh" law getting passed with the current crowd up in Congress is slim to none.

Jeez--even in the light of Newtown, even though the Senate has passed a pretty weak background check law---its not likely to get passed by the whack jobs in the House and we cannot even have any chance of re instituting the "assault weapon ban" and max size of ammo clips laws passed--something we already had a decade or so back--with those laws not doing one thing to restrict the rights of gun owners.


I really do wonder just how many more Newtown massacres its gonna take till we do enact some sane and reasonable gun restriction laws----and that since the "Newtown Massacre" we have had more people shot dead in our streets in just the "regular day-to-day" shootings than the number killed in the multiple terror attacks on 9/11.

With those 3,000 plus killed in those attacks---we went into two wars and did things like enact the USA PATRIOT ACT---thankfully the bulk of its profoundly Constitutional rights killing provisions have not been used to date----it seems that we cannot get any substantive action taken about the "gun issue" accomplished when it comes to this issue.

That is kind of sad.

[silberwolf1960]

Ok, first off those are called "straw purchases", second DO not lump all U.S. citizens in your rhetoric about illegal guns being sold to Canadians. Not all of us are as " ignorant " as the media depicts, I have many guns in my collection, from WW1 to my DPMS semi- auto " Armalite Rifle". So before ya stray from the laws and into the fictional, remember just because of the few " ass clowns" that sell illegal arms, I don' see anything that deals with all the other countries selling arms to Third world countries that use child soldiers to do their dirty work. Next thing ya know you will want my bow, all my arrows, my fishing rods because it's cruel to the fish.
If you want to slow this kind of activity, when you vote for millages that support the hiring of police officers vote yes, do keeps tryout eyes open, simply because if ya see something wrong don't say it's not my problem, we lived. The age of cells phone and other wireless devices we carry everyday.

[silberwolf1960]

Sorry keep yer eyes open. Oops.

[tenni]

silberwolf1960
Thanks yes I either knew or the article referred to the sales in parking lots as “straw purchases”. Out of curiosity, do you know why this term is used? I’m getting the impression that such “straw purchase” sales are legal in your state? (you mention some as illegally sold in Michigan? (ass clowns)


There is no question that guns are being sold illegally and there is ample evidence over the past five or so years as to where most of the crime guns are coming from. This is not the first article on this use of illegal guns in Ontario. The numbers of these guns and their use seems to be increasing. This indicates that the smuggling is increasing. Police on the streets have been increased. There are some programmes attempting to deal with youth crime but still the incidents of crime guns in a province with restrictions on the sale of hand guns etc. is increasing due to the easy acccess to guns in the US states mentioned.


As far as selling of guns to other countries that is not my point of this thread. It is about the illegal guns that continue to be traced back to the original gun sale as being in these states along the I-75. Some are caught at the border. Some obviously get in and are used to commit crimes in Ontario.


“If you want to slow this kind of activity, when you vote for millages that support the hiring of police officers vote yes, do keeps tryout eyes open, simply because if ya see something wrong don't say it's not my problem, we lived. The age of cells phone and other wireless devices we carry everyday.”


I do not understand your reference to “vote for millages”?
More police on the street to prevent crime makes sense. It won’t stop the smuggling of guns though imo. It doesn’t make sense that when we have laws restricting gun owners on hand guns that they are being smuggled in from a country that does not monitor the sales better. It requires awareness and co operation on both states, provinces and countries. It is not like crime guns do not exist in the US. Your people seem to simply accept their presence and use?

[tenni]

Overneath
Whether gun laws are strict or lenient, it is the law abiding citizen that suffers. They seem to suffer more where there are lax gun laws as far as ownership? Although we are very concerned about the increase in crime guns, we are no where near the numbers of your states. Yes, the targets are often other gang members but the innocent law abiding citizen is killed in greater numbers where guns are used in crime.


Thanks for the information about on line guns being shipped to a Federal Firearms Licencesee and by doing so are subject to gun laws ALREADY IN PLACE. Are you referring to federal laws? Do you know why is it that there are reports that they are being smuggled in to Ontario and they were from on line sales?


Your story about getting a registered gun while those who were declined may still get an illegal gun matches our experience. We are alarmed while you seem to accept it?

[Mr. Suck]

I grew up with guns and I own a firearm. It's not a big deal. I have been shot at and it made me arm myself more and the right to own a gun is one that myself and many United States citizens freely exercise. It does not make us bad people, killers, violent people, etc. just because we own guns and are trained in how to safely use a firearm. I have lived in some very dangerous places and traveled to dangerous places and you would need a gun for protection and perhaps self defense if you lived or traveled to these places. Even if someone did outlaw the sale of all guns in the United States as they have done in other countries people would still be very easily able to get them.

[OverNeath]

Your story about getting a registered gun while those who were declined may still get an illegal gun matches our experience. We are alarmed while you seem to accept it?

Accept it? No, It pisses me off. I dont like the idea of guns being in the hands of criminals any more than anyone else,BUT, if the current gun laws were enforced as written,the problem wouldnt be as prevalent. Keep in mind,that if there were no market for illegal arms in Canada,you wouldnt have a problem. The key to it all is severe punishment for violent crimes committed with a firearm and severe punishment for gun trafficking.

[silberwolf1960]

I agree with OverNeath, stiffer laws to make gun runners pay and if said gun was used in a violent crime or murder the prison stay just became extended. Not all of us are as stupid or naive as a lot of the folks to the north think we are. Gun violence is real, as is rape, child/ spousal abuse, animal abuse, even fraud with devices ( yes there is such a thing and it's a felony)
What makes it worse is people is many see it before it happens, yet they turn a blind eye saying " I don't want get involved, it's none of my business" and so on. Yet they are the first ones to scream for gun control when shit happens that could of been avoided by a simple phone call.
I will say the majority of gun are responseable folks and don't tolerate any illegal use of firearms, yet we would not hesitate to use our firearms to protect perfect strangers should the need arise. I can say with utmost confidence, if you break into my house, there will be no trial by 13, just carried by 6.

[4_oral_fun]

Good conversation. I WILL NOT sell a firearm to somebody I do not know and to some I do know. If you buy a gun for someone else who cannot legally own one, that is a crime. In Charleston, WV a woman did just that, got caught because the gun was used in a crime, her boyfriend also arrested. They both now wear stylish clothing provided by the state with a number attached. ENFORCE the laws we have, demand they be enforced. The 2nd Ammendment was put in place to protect us from tyranny, i.e. gov't gone bad and personal protection of life and property. We become subjects and are no longer citizens when our rights are taken away. The many people who scream for gun control, would fight visciously for their freedom of speech. Concerning pawn shops, all pawn shops must have a liscense to seel firearms and must account for the sales and must conduct the background check. If they do not, they will be shut down and become a prison bitch for someone. If guns are being dealt in the parking lots perhaps the law should be called. Most flea markets do not allow gun sales for fear of liability. I am concerned about interenet sales, the transaction should have to be completed through a firearms dealer. The vast majority of gun owners are responsible, law abiding and not idiots who hate the criminal activity as much as the next guy.