The real gender differences?

[Azrael]

My friend and myself were on this conversational tangent a few days ago. We were talking about what we identify with as our respective feminine sides. Then I started going on a slightly Jungian tangent. As we delved into the Anima and the Animus (hidden aspects of either gender in men or women, respectively) I began to wonder what constitutes concrete male or female behavior, or if such things truly exist. Understand that I'm thinking beyond biological factors like ejaculation versus menstruation and childbirth. I mean, some would argue that women are more nurturing by nature. Or that men tend to be more hostile and or assertive, although ironically enough females tend to be the deadlier of the species in the animal kingdom, as so wistfully noted by Rudyard Kipling. With this polarity of human beings, how do we actually define gender specific behavior beyond inherited environmental factors? Any thoughts?

[bigregory]

I do think this goes way back to caveman times.
Instinct.Men and women have there roles in life and it has only been the last hundred years or so that thes roles were not a part of staying alive.Helen Cronin a british evolutionary psycholigist at the london school of economics has some great insites into this subject.. :male:

[Long Duck Dong]

mmm using myself as a subject and knowing that i have both female and male aspects to my personality, I deem to percieve my dual sides using the following:

female
more emotional range, and less emotional blocks to displaying the full range

desire to wear more than the restrictive male range of clothing ( women can wear pants, skirts and dresses, watch what happens when a male wears skirts and dresses )

more inclined to mentally and emotionally destroy a person using well placed cutting words, more than fists and base ball bats

more inclined to take offence and feel threatened

more objective about friends and partners in ways of closeness and contact

more aware of critical of people around me and quickly to draw offence at peoples attitudes and reactions

i can add more, but in essense, I find my feminine side to be more bitchy and vengeful than my masculine, but way less tolerant of pushy people especially with sex however, my feminine side is a damm sight more patience than my male side

male

skin like a rhino and less likely to take offence than the female side

harder and more restrictive in my desires to be friendly and open with people

more critical of people with limited knowledge and wisdom

more likely to dislike a person and less likely to be able to admit that I have no true reason for disliking them

more image conscious, and not wishing to appear weak or unable to handle and deal with things

more likely to display a nurturing nature than the female side.... its natural with the female side, so displays of nurturing from the male side, are done with more effort and gain more notice

as a male in R/L I find that i am expected to be hard, cold and dominant... but that the same time, caring, soft and loving....its a contradiction in terms

now as a bisexual with dual personality aspects, I often find that the personality aspects are constantly changing, from submissive to dominant and back, and that they often clash inside me and turn me into a total wreck
while the male side is more gay than straight, the female side is more bisexual, but sadly the female side is less trusted and open to love and so while i may enjoy passionate sex, the female side will become dominant and fight any chance of me allowing a relationship to start and for my feminine side to be dominated

[gentlepen9]

Everyone is born with the capability to expresss characteristics/behaviors that we deem to be masculine or feminine. Categorizing specific behaviors according to sex is a social construct for gender identity. Needless to say not all women are "feminine" and not all men are "masculine". I think rigidly defined gender roles cause us more harm than good because based upon those roles we make generalizations about men and women and fail to truly look at the individual. Also psychologically it slows the process to wholeness.
According to Jung the Animus is the symbolic representation of the masculine within a woman and the Anima is the symbolic representation of the feminine in the man. I tend to think that, regardless of the person's sex, the Animus and Anima are symbolic representations of those aspects within us that are undeveloped. How do you think the Animus would be represented inside the psyche of a woman who's assertive, goal-oriented, self-efficient and more driven by what she thinks rather than what she feels?

[Nara_lovely]

Was there any talk leading towards the Yin Yang...keeping self (masculine and feminine energies) in balance?

Is it the 'in touch' of those qualities, or bringing forth a masculine or feminine quality, based on circumstances for life (survival, social, behavioural etc)?

:yinyang: I've noticed a few others in the site who use that symbol...curiously adding a slant to the topic. Besides, I really enjoy those wandering deep philosophical discussions!

[Azrael]

Was there any talk leading towards the Yin Yang...keeping self (masculine and feminine energies) in balance?
Yes, as a matter of fact there was.

Is it the 'in touch' of those qualities, or bringing forth a masculine or feminine quality, based on circumstances for life (survival, social, behavioural etc)?
I would guess more the latter, but I'm not entirely sure. As I said, my head's sort of wrestling with this one, but I often find myself emulating what are generally considered feminine behaviors.

:yinyang: I've noticed a few others in the site who use that symbol...curiously adding a slant to the topic. Besides, I really enjoy those wandering deep philosophical discussions!
I'm an ardent fan of conversational black holes as I like to refer to them as
:bigrin:

[Azrael]

I think rigidly defined gender roles cause us more harm than good because based upon those roles we make generalizations about men and women and fail to truly look at the individual. Also psychologically it slows the process to wholeness.
Exactly.

How do you think the Animus would be represented inside the psyche of a woman who's assertive, goal-oriented, self-efficient and more driven by what she thinks rather than what she feels?
That's a hell of a good question. I mean, these are not unusual qualities for many women to have. I suppose it depends on the unrepresented or dormant personality traits of said woman.

[JrzGuy3]

It's really a question of masculine v. feminine, and a good one at that.

Academically, masculinity is strength, ability, access, power, etc etc. Femininity is basicallythe opposite- passiveness, etc. But here's a deeper question I had that my GL studies prof didn't have an answer for: Is femininity a simple lack of masculinity, or is it a characteristic in and of itself?

There's also another angle to look at this from. Ignoring reproductive limitations, is the problem of gender stereotypes that society too strongly paints certain activities, characteristics etc respectively as masculine and feminine, or does society too strongly paint men as masculine and women as feminine?

I think it's the latter. Sure, I'd say chopping down a tree (par example) as being masculine. Men tend to have more chest muscles and durability. But is that really applicable in today's society? First off, while men (in general) may be better suited for this kind of physical work, it's a generalization so broad that "a man is more able than a woman to chop down a tree" is far from a rule. Furthermore, with modern mechanization of logging, I doubt an extra 15 lbs of chest muscle is going to make an appreciable difference in ability.

Summarily, I wouldn't say that logging is not a masculine activity; it implies strength (among other things) which are squarely masculine. However, I contend that masculine implies strength and assertiveness but shouldn't (though it does) imply male.

[Lorcan]

Sure, I'd say chopping down a tree (par example) as being masculine. Men tend to have more chest muscles and durability. But is that really applicable in today's society? First off, while men (in general) may be better suited for this kind of physical work, it's a generalization so broad that "a man is more able than a woman to chop down a tree" is far from a rule. Furthermore, with modern mechanization of logging, I doubt an extra 15 lbs of chest muscle is going to make an appreciable difference in ability.



Yes, but do men (on the average) want to cut down a tree more than woman? Do they get more of a thrill by stroking their Husqvarna and turning a tree into firewood? :bigrin:

I think it's in the wanting.

[ScifiBiJen]

Yes, but do men (on the average) want to cut down a tree more than woman? Do they get more of a thrill by stroking their Husqvarna and turning a tree into firewood?

I think it's in the wanting.

Perhaps, but I feel like a lot of "wanting" may come secondary to our societal conditioning. A little boy who is constantly told "No, you can't play with dolls, wear nail polish, etc" may eventually decide that he won't win that battle and just say "Oh yeah? Well I don't want to anyway, that stuff's dumb". While some men may go on to wear nail polish or women go to chop down trees, I wonder if there are more people who have just resigned themselves to the "rules" given to them. If we never gave children those kinds of rules to begin with, I wonder how many more people would enjoy things not "typical" for their gender roles. :2cents:

:flag1:

[Diane54]

Gender roles are forced on us. by society, parents, peers and others we wish not to disappoint. We all strive for approval. :2cents:

[gentlepen9]

More thoughts on the subject...

The experience of being male or female can't be summed up in a list of behaviors categorized as "masculine" and "feminine". If we look with clarity at what we experience within ourselves as men and women we can see that the terms "masculine" and "feminine" fail to fully explain who we are.

[LouiseBrookslover]

Wow. That's not a weighty question. :tong:

I think that it is our human privilege to drink of seemingly opposite energies, including gender energies. The only thing we are not permitted is to be beholden to eros (the instinct to live, love, create) and thanatos (the instinct to die, to give up, to destroy). But that doesn't really divide the male from the female, only the living from the dead (or walking dead). This is the only time we are marked, divided, and ultimately separated by the energy we have chosen. Not male and female, but living and dead.

[Azrael]

Wow. That's not a weighty question. :tong:

I think that it is our human privilege to drink of seemingly opposite energies, including gender energies. The only thing we are not permitted is to be beholden to eros (the instinct to live, love, create) and thanatos (the instinct to die, to give up, to destroy). But that doesn't really divide the male from the female, only the living from the dead (or walking dead). This is the only time we are marked, divided, and ultimately separated by the energy we have chosen. Not male and female, but living and dead.
Now this is a truly beautiful perspective on the matter. On a sidenote, I pull the powertools out and build shit in pseudo drag, so I really can't make a qualified answer to the husqvarna question cause I'm slightly biased
;)

[Nara_lovely]

LOL Azrael

...and I love swinging an axe to truly appreciate the effect of chopping wood...no chainsaw...this is strength! All done in boots, jeans, old shirt and sweating away, then admiring such a pile of kindling stacked to perfection!

Guess I'm in the 'balanced energy zone' when I then pick up all the little bits of wood to keep the lawn clean...

[Lorcan]

The experience of being male or female can't be summed up in a list of behaviors categorized as "masculine" and "feminine". If we look with clarity at what we experience within ourselves as men and women we can see that the terms "masculine" and "feminine" fail to fully explain who we are.
I agree entirely Gentlepen. There are heavily masculine women and heavily feminine men who wouldn't consider themselves to be in any way "transgendered". Then there's me. Why am i bigendered? I don't think it can described in my behavior.



...and I love swinging an axe to truly appreciate the effect of chopping wood...no chainsaw...this is strength! All done in boots, jeans, old shirt and sweating away, then admiring such a pile of kindling stacked to perfection!

I'm too lazy for that! Though i might have to if i don't get my Husky fixed soon. It's in little parts in the shed awaiting a new fuel line. :rolleyes:

[csrakate]

I mean, some would argue that women are more nurturing by nature. Or that men tend to be more hostile and or assertive, although ironically enough females tend to be the deadlier of the species in the animal kingdom, as so wistfully noted by Rudyard Kipling. With this polarity of human beings, how do we actually define gender specific behavior beyond inherited environmental factors? Any thoughts?

Well..let me put it this way..this nurturing female would rip your lungs out if you dared to mess with her children!!! LOL!! So is this a part of your assessment as per Rudyard Kipling?...or does it all have to do with nurture versus nature...in other words....I will let you live as long as you don't mess with my cubs!!!

Hugs,
Kate

[Azrael]

Well..let me put it this way..this nurturing female would rip your lungs out if you dared to mess with her children!!! LOL!! So is this a part of your assessment as per Rudyard Kipling?...or does it all have to do with nurture versus nature...in other words....I will let you live as long as you don't mess with my cubs!!!

Hugs,
Kate
Absolutely it is, although I'd do the same thing for my kids were I to have any. Nature versus nurture, not really sure where I stand with that, leaning toward both like I do.