Erring on the side of Inclusion

[scapegoat1987]

As a newbie here, I've noticed a number of threads dealing with defining bisexuality and attempting to rate just "How bisexual" a person really is based on what they have or have not experienced or on what they are or are not willing to do with another person. To me, a person is bisexual regardless of their sexual experiences or sexual practices. Bisexuality, after all, is about desire, and someone is bisexual whether or not they ever get the opportunity to have sex with a man or a woman or both. The only significant qualifier is that one is somehow attracted to more than one sex and/or gender, and I'm including an attraction to trans-identified and gender variant peoples in that equation as well. In fact, a person could die a virgin and still be bisexual. My favorite definition states that I consider myself to be bisexual because I recognize that there exists within me the possibility for attraction, sexually and/or romantically, with more than one sex, and/or gender, not necessarily at the same time, not necessarily in the same manner and not necessarily to the same degree. I personally experience my own bisexual tendencies more in terms of an attraction to masculinities, regardless of whether a particular person is a masculine-identified transperson, cis man or cis woman. I'm not necessarily attracted to femininity in the same way. Therefore, when it comes to defining or measuring one's bisexuality, I'd rather err on the side of inclusion rather than limit a person from embracing their own unique forms of sexual identity or expression. No one of us here is more or less bisexual than anyone else. The fact that we're attracted to more than one sex and/or gender makes us equally bisexual. This is not a pissing contest, and it would be to our advantage to remember the age old saying, "Together we stand. Divided we fall." Just my opinion. :suave:

[tenni]

Hi
I agree with a lot that you wrote. I agree that bisexuality is an attraction to both male and female whether it be sexual and or emotional. Where I differ is you inclusion of transexuals. How do you define pansexuality then if not a sexual and or emotional attraction to people regardless of their sex or gender? That includes those who are not CIS male or CIS female. I think for awhile now the word bisexual has been a very broad dumping ground for yet to be determined sexualities. You may be more pansexual but I agree that it is up to the person to label themselves for their own needs. However they may be way of base due to lack of knowledge or the flexibility that some people experience when it comes to attraction and gender. Sexualities seem very fuzzy at times for some people. I am not convinced that the word inclusion is a good thing. It seems like if you do not include a group there would be something wrong. Why not just say that everyone is the same sexuality regardless if they are monosexual or not? In other words, everyone would be heterosexual with variations.

Is your attraction to masculinities both physical and emotional?

[scapegoat1987]

I agree with your definition of pansexuality and have a number of friends who do identify that way. I probably would to, except that I have a difficult enough time getting people to respect and understand bisexuality. :) And I most often just identify as simply Queer, because it's an umbrella term that includes everyone. Yeah, labels can be tricky, and I try to respect whatever label each person prefers, but there are times when I feel like advocating for fewer rather than more labels. I can only imagine what more traditional heterosexuals are thinking when they read the ever-increasing display of letters I so affectionately refer to as the queer alphabet soup (lgbtqia). It even confuses me at times, and it certainly makes me feel anxious about leaving someone out. Yes, I believe my attraction to masculinities is both physical and emotional. And it has as much to do with stereotypical masculine attitudes as it does with masculine appearances, too. Women who act "Masculine" are more likely to turn me on. I thought for years that I had just slept with women as a young man because of the pressure to conform, but I've recently concluded that it's not necessarily the case. I've been increasingly (and unfortunately secretively) attracted to transmen and transmen porn for over a decade, and I often form crushes and sexual attractions toward butch women. I recently had a huge crush on several very butch lesbian friend of a friend, and I found myself masturbating to thoughts of having sex with them. I also recently went on a date with a moderately butch women at work and was completely attracted to her. That's when I started re-questioning my own bisexuality, and I came to the conclusion that I have been limited in my idea of what it meant to be attracted to women. I had convinced myself that I couldn't possibly be bisexual because I didn't like feminine lingerie or the stereotypical big breasted, long finger nailed porn starlet in high heels. And since I've begun to talk to others about this issue, I've noticed more and more women that I'm attracted to, and my fantasies more often than not have been about sex with a woman lately. It's been a very liberating and rewarding experience for me.

[Long Duck Dong]

just out of curiosity.... do you define bisexuality by a persons body or their mind.... and the reason why I ask that is that there is only 3 possible sex, female, male and intersex ( hybrid chromosones ) but a wider range of definations based around self identification.....

trans people are generally male or female biologically, they can change to male or female, but they are still male or female....so the term trans is used as a way of defining bisexuality as not inclusive of people that are actually fitting into the male / female aspect of attraction....its a bit like saying that you are attracted to goth people, and using that to define your sexual attraction....its actually excluding the sexuality of the person and defining your sexuality based on a non sexual aspect......

the most common defination of pan sexuality covers trans, gender queer, gender undefined, gender less etc but that again is focusing on the self labeling, not the biological sex of the person....in the same way that you are attracted to masculine female, but they are still females....

the majority of people that are bisexual, are actually bisexual ( biological attraction ) and pansexual ( label attraction ) and no matter what way you look at it, other people will try and tell you that your thinking is errorous... when in fact its the definations of bisexual that are errorous...

bisexual.com is a place where the owner embraces us all equally without question, as bisexuality is not really as broad defining as we tend to think, its quite narrow if you look at it... its the type of person that we are attracted to, that is the broader defination of bisexuality....

[scapegoat1987]

Well, I understand that there's a difference between a person's biological sex and their gender. Sex is about genitalia, whereas gender (what it means to be a man or a woman) is performative and varies from culture to culture. And that cis gendered people are merely people whose biological sex and gender are aligned to fit cultural norms, and that transgendered and gender queer people's biological sex and gender are not aligned in the normal fashion. We often mistakenly use these terms interchangeably, confusing the two concepts. I believe that there are women who have a penis and that there are men who have a vagina. I don't suppose, in that respect, that I delineate based on biological sex as much as I do based on a person's perceived gender presentation i.e. a transman is just as much a man to me as a cis man. I'm more attracted to the concepts of "Masculine" and "Butch" than I am hung up on what a person has between their legs. I can work with a penis or a vagina or anything in between. To me, the difference between a bisexual and a pansexual is more of a philosophical one, akin to the difference between what it means to be a vegetarian or a vegan. You're right that pansexuals include trans identified and gender queer peoples in their sexualities and rally against the gender binary. In that respect I am a pansexual. On the other hand, I'm attracted to people with a penis and people with a vangina, which clearly makes me bisexual. I believe that all of our sexualities are much more fluid than we care to admit most of the time, and I try to always respect whatever identity a person embraces. Different people experience bisexuality differently, but we are all still bisexual in my mind. One can argue the peculiarities for days, like if I'm a man who is having sex with a transman, does that make me bi or gay? I believe that the answer to such questions lies within and would answer, "You tell me. Do you identify as gay or bi?" There is no definitive answer; it's all relative. Again, just my opinon. ;)

[dafydd]

As a newbie here, I've noticed a number of threads dealing with defining bisexuality and attempting to rate just "How bisexual" a person really is based on what they have or have not experienced or on what they are or are not willing to do with another person. To me, a person is bisexual regardless of their sexual experiences or sexual practices. Bisexuality, after all, is about desire, and someone is bisexual whether or not they ever get the opportunity to have sex with a man or a woman or both. The only significant qualifier is that one is somehow attracted to more than one sex and/or gender, and I'm including an attraction to trans-identified and gender variant peoples in that equation as well. In fact, a person could die a virgin and still be bisexual. My favorite definition states that I consider myself to be bisexual because I recognize that there exists within me the possibility for attraction, sexually and/or romantically, with more than one sex, and/or gender, not necessarily at the same time, not necessarily in the same manner and not necessarily to the same degree. I personally experience my own bisexual tendencies more in terms of an attraction to masculinities, regardless of whether a particular person is a masculine-identified transperson, cis man or cis woman. I'm not necessarily attracted to femininity in the same way. Therefore, when it comes to defining or measuring one's bisexuality, I'd rather err on the side of inclusion rather than limit a person from embracing their own unique forms of sexual identity or expression. No one of us here is more or less bisexual than anyone else. The fact that we're attracted to more than one sex and/or gender makes us equally bisexual. This is not a pissing contest, and it would be to our advantage to remember the age old saying, "Together we stand. Divided we fall." Just my opinion. :suave:

agreed! thanks for ur post scapegoat1987

[tenni]

Hi again
"You tell me. Do you identify as gay or bi?" There is no definitive answer; it's all relative. Again, just my opinon."

I tend to think that I differ with you on this point. I completely agree that identifying your sexuality is a personal matter. However, there is a clear difference between gay and bisexual on a couple of levels.

I prefer to see bisexuality compared to monosexuality. Gay and heteros are both monosexuals. Bisexuals are not. Bisexuals are attracted physically sexually and or emotionally to both sexes and both genders to some extent. Gays are not attracted to both sexes.

I doubt that gays are attracted (sexually /emotionally) to transexuals whose gender is opposite the gay person but that differential is an attempt for inclusion of a minorities minority of definition. It may be a finer point of pansexuality? It may be a finer point on being gay? Are men who have no attraction to females but are attracted to men including transmen gay or pansexual? It seems unlikely that they are pansexual as the sex and gender of the person matters to them. I suspect that they might be wise to identify as genderqueer or queer rather than bisexual but that is your choice. The problem becomes a political one for other bisexuals though.

It really doesn't matter though to make simple distinctions between gay and bisexual. Sorry but I think that it is a dis service to bisexuals to promote your lose definition and to fuzzing the clarity. Therefore, I would not stand with you on this matter.

Politically, I think that it is wiser for bisexuals to separate themselves from gays and keep our definition separate from the two monosexual grouping if we are going to be accepted by main stream beliefs.

Failing that, I personally like the idea that sexuality is a broad menu and it should not matter what you are on the menu as far as acceptance is concerned. Unfortunately, many heteros see/understand only in the binary. Your fuzzying attempt to fns your identification doesn't do most bisexuals any or little good socio politically.

[Long Duck Dong]

Well, I understand that there's a difference between a person's biological sex and their gender. Sex is about genitalia, whereas gender (what it means to be a man or a woman) is performative and varies from culture to culture. And that cis gendered people are merely people whose biological sex and gender are aligned to fit cultural norms, and that transgendered and gender queer people's biological sex and gender are not aligned in the normal fashion. We often mistakenly use these terms interchangeably, confusing the two concepts. I believe that there are women who have a penis and that there are men who have a vagina. I don't suppose, in that respect, that I delineate based on biological sex as much as I do based on a person's perceived gender presentation i.e. a transman is just as much a man to me as a cis man. I'm more attracted to the concepts of "Masculine" and "Butch" than I am hung up on what a person has between their legs. I can work with a penis or a vagina or anything in between. To me, the difference between a bisexual and a pansexual is more of a philosophical one, akin to the difference between what it means to be a vegetarian or a vegan. You're right that pansexuals include trans identified and gender queer peoples in their sexualities and rally against the gender binary. In that respect I am a pansexual. On the other hand, I'm attracted to people with a penis and people with a vangina, which clearly makes me bisexual. I believe that all of our sexualities are much more fluid than we care to admit most of the time, and I try to always respect whatever identity a person embraces. Different people experience bisexuality differently, but we are all still bisexual in my mind. One can argue the peculiarities for days, like if I'm a man who is having sex with a transman, does that make me bi or gay? I believe that the answer to such questions lies within and would answer, "You tell me. Do you identify as gay or bi?" There is no definitive answer; it's all relative. Again, just my opinon. ;)

lol thats the main issue with bisexuality...lol.... we acknowledge the fluid nature of bisexuality and the diversity, but the pressure is on to present a fixed aspect of sexuality as bisexuality and draw lines in the sand...... and that is a lot of the issue, on one hand we are saying to you, be who you are and be happy with the way you see yourself, and on the other hand we are saying, you must fit into this definition in order to bisexual / pansexual otherwise you are wrong in your understanding of yourself.... and the ironic thing is that it makes it harder for us to settle within ourselves and get others to accept us as who we are, not easier....

I am a intersex ( I have hybrid chromosomes ) pansexual that often ids as bisexual and I also have a asexual nature ( I lack a sex drive but it can be changed with meds ) so I am accepted by the majority of people for what I am and what I call myself, but I have been told that I do not belong to any * group * and therefore I should not ID according to the aspects of who I am, but that I should go and be with the other groups that match what I say about myself....a complete contradiction in stances

most of the bisexuals in the site, are fighting for acceptance of themselves, not bisexuality... because being accepted for who they are is easier than changing to fit into a mold so society can accept a label better... and society will find it easier to accept a person and their sexuality rather than a sexuality that is not always matching the way people are

[scapegoat1987]

Thanks, Daffyd. And I agree with you, Long Duck Dong. And I kind of see your point, Tenni. Call me a bleeding heart liberal (everyone else does), but I think it's up to everyone to make their own decisions about sexual labels. I know people who identify as gay or lesbian who certainly were involved sexually with people of the opposite sex at different points throughout their lives. Hell, I identified as a gay man for two decades and I'd had sex with more women than some of my straight friends. I don't think that our sexual history or sexual activities necessarily define us. For instance, I could be a straight man who was molested by another man for years. Does that make me bisexual because I've had sex with another man? Or I could be a lesbian who felt pressured to marry a person of the opposite sex. Does that make me bisexual? I could be a bisexual man who dies a virgin. Does that make me asexual? I went to a Bar Mitzfah once...does that make me Jewish? I don't think so.

[DuckiesDarling]

I went to a Bar Mitzfah once...does that make me Jewish? I don't think so.
Pretty much sums it up, we are what we say we are cause we have to live with it and be true to ourselves. Waves from E~town :)

[tenni]

scapegoat
I think that you are looking at this from the exceptionality aspect.

Most bisexuals come from a different base than you or daffyd. Many bisexuals may have wondered whether they were gay but never identified as gay like you and daffyd have. Bisexuality has a fairly simple definition with exceptionalities. Basically a bisexual is a person who is sexually and or emotionally attracted to both sexes male and female. Most bisexuals seem to identify from the physical sexual attraction first. It is less common to find a person who identifies as bisexual who has an emotional attraction soley to both sexes.

Although you are clearly a fluid attraction sexual person your path has differed from many bisexuals who post. There seems to be more reports of posters on websites who have your experience of identifying as gay after realizing that heterosexuality doesn't work for them. They are still a minority of people who identify as bisexual.

In your situation, you have a strong attraction to what you refer to as masculine. Is that any different a trait than someone who is attracted to a physical trait such as red hair or large breasts on a woman ....a beard on a man. etc.? You are attracted to physical and behavioural traits usually associated with maleness whether the sex of the person is male or female. You have moved from being attracted to masculine males to be inclusive now to realize that you are attracted to women who have certain physical and behavioural traits (that happen be be associated with a societies cultural belief in what is masculine).

You no longer are exclusively attracted to masculine males. If you were, you would identify as gay or be even labelled by others as gay. This makes you a bisexual person with some travels along the sexual fluidity line that differ from many other bisexuals but you are still a bisexual. I would argue that you were always a bisexual but I may be wrong as again we do hear reports of transitioning gays identifying as bisexual. Only you can reflect on that. (have you ever wondered how many quietly returned to identify as bisexual and not gay?).

Perhaps some day, bisexuality will be defined in part with the trait of attraction being a fluid aspect to the strength and degree that a person is attracted to both males and female sexes.

[Visexual]

I'm jumping in here sort of late but I think we all overthink this whole thing a bit.

Personally, I enjoy sex and always have. I think I enjoyed the first cock in my hand as much as the first time I had my hand on a pussy. Both were so excitingly sexual!

I certainly enjoyed fucking a pussy more than a guy's butt, but I did cum in both.

OK, I find a woman's appearance much more stimulating but a man's attitude more stimulating.

The best sex I've had in years was a reasonably passable CD.

[Gearbox]

Every year the X-Factor shows us lots of people who identify as 'fantastic singers', and every year Sharon Osbourne & co tells a lot of em "No darling, your not a fantastic singer.".:tongue: Many of them will disagree coz in their hearts & souls they are born to take the music industry by storm etc, and that is who they believe themselves to be. The 'minor' technocality of sounding like a dying crow to others is just that - a minor technocality.lol

Now they could reinvent the criteria for what qualifies them as 'fantastic singers' to include 'sounding like a dying crow', but it wouldn't get them recognised as such. Few would buy into that definition of 'fantastic singer'.
Yet some would argue that the label is more important than what is labeled, and many would argue the criteria for that label. So we often get a big old fuzzy mishmash of definitions to accommodate identity, mind, body and perspective put to a majority vote.:bigrin:

A nice gay man was bi-erasing me one day so I gay erased him.....:rolleyes:...I asked if he ever has a sexual attraction to a female. He said 'yes', but they had to be exceptionally attractive.:tongue: I found that that was a common 'technicality' among the bi erasing gay blokes that I meet. Sharon Osbourne wasn't available for comment, but am sure she'd tell them that they are not the 'fantastic' singers that they think they are.;)

[scapegoat1987]

I spent a long, long time bi-erasing myself, thinking only in terms of the binary. And I got really good at policing my own desires. Yes, it certainly makes me wonder how many other people are doing the same thing. I know there are a lot. The point of my original post was not to fall into the hazy mire of defining what qualifies as bisexual, but to say that it would be advantageous to the community as a whole if we simply were more encouraging of people to identify as bisexual, instead of making it seem as though there's some agenda or criteria that everyone has to meet. I believe there are many other people like me who are intimidated by the thought of coming out as bi, because they feel that others are going to question their qualifications. A teenage boy who's never had sex before tells us that he's straight and nobody questions it. A grown ass, experienced man such as myself comes out as bisexual and suddenly people on both sides of the fence are pulling out checklists to see if I qualify. We complain about bi-erasure and bi phobia but the truth is that things are never going to change until the bisexual community first practices self acceptance. If there's one thing I've learned from being part of the lgbt community, it's that coming out of the closet is the most effective method of change ever. I see it every day in terms of Same-Sex Marriage...people are adamantly against it until they learn that a friend, coworker or family member is gay. Likewise, until people know bisexual friends, coworkers and family members, they are going to view bisexuals as "Those other people who threaten my heteronormative existence." And a lot of people, such as myself, have been hesitant to embrace a bisexual identity because they've been made to feel that "That doesn't count" or "You're not bisexual enough." Again, just my opinion.

[Gearbox]

@Scapegoat1967 - I think you're reading these 'How bi are you?' threads from the wrong angle. Well I think so.:bigrin:
They are IMO checklists of peculiarities within bisexual attractions to seek commonalities , and not criteria for being bi. The use of the kinsey scale sets a tone for bisexuality as margin between binary sexualities, and not quite a definitive sexuality.
For most, the definition of bisexual is the sexual attraction to both genders. But even so, there are MANY likes & dislikes involved in those attractions. Liking 3 out of 10 is not proof of binary, but (to some) proof of a leaning towards either end of the scale.
IMO being 3 shades whiter than black doesn't mean you're white in comparison to black.:tongue:

In my case, I don't like cum, sucking cocks, 3somes or being fucked. So reading some threads here I sometimes think I might be some kind of freak.LOL I have no commonality with those bi's in those regards. I'd score a big fat zero on those scales and be hetero if bisexuality were judged on those things alone.
But it's not.:)

Yes, I agree that ALL bi's came out and disclosed themselves and all those peculiarities there'd be a much better understanding of bisexuality and sexuality in general.
That hasn't worked for homosexuality nor heterosexuality so far, but it would be worth a shot. IMO bisexuality brings up a lot of things that stay closeted in all sexualities.
For eg- the negative psychological kickstart to non-monog at the very mention of bisexual, even tho it's not a strictly bisexual phenomena.
Makes me feel I should stay in the closet at times, until the rest of society matures.:tongue:

[scapegoat1987]

You make a good pint, Gearbox. I'm admittedly a bit sensitive still, because I just started coming out as bisexual to people I know, and I've gotten some negative feedback. I do know that not everyone is coming from that angle and being critical though. I hope my post didn't come across sounding like an accusation toward everyone at this site. I'm new here and enjoying all the threads and the people. I just felt the need to voice my frustrations, and to raise awareness of how intimidating it can seem to new comers at times. As with any minority group, there are always going to be those people who try and police their ranks, and who try to inflate their own egos by proving "I'm more (fill in the blank) than you" or "You're not one of us because your not (fill in the blank) enough." I often joke with my friends that "THEY are going to come take my gay card away" because of something I do or say. I'm only joking when I say that....well, mostly. :rolleyes:

[Gearbox]

To any new member who comes here hoping to find a 'typical bisexual' to compare themselves with, they'll be very disappointed.:bigrin:
They'll find a VERY big box of tricks if they look for details to match theirs with. But to look for 'birds of a feather' is perfectly natural, even if unnecessary. So those checklists are prone to being viewed in a negative slant if they don't tick the boxes.
We all like to fit in a box (pun intended.lol), and feel accepted. But in bisexuality there are many little boxes inside a big one, and if your not in a little one, your still in the big one.......so looking too close isn't always wise if your not yet comfy in the big box.
Getting comfy would be the realisation that bisexuals are not all exactly the same.:)

[scapegoat1987]

Nicely said. I agree.

[DiamondDog]

As a newbie here, I've noticed a number of threads dealing with defining bisexuality and attempting to rate just "How bisexual" a person really is based on what they have or have not experienced or on what they are or are not willing to do with another person. To me, a person is bisexual regardless of their sexual experiences or sexual practices. Bisexuality, after all, is about desire, and someone is bisexual whether or not they ever get the opportunity to have sex with a man or a woman or both. The only significant qualifier is that one is somehow attracted to more than one sex and/or gender, and I'm including an attraction to trans-identified and gender variant peoples in that equation as well. In fact, a person could die a virgin and still be bisexual. My favorite definition states that I consider myself to be bisexual because I recognize that there exists within me the possibility for attraction, sexually and/or romantically, with more than one sex, and/or gender, not necessarily at the same time, not necessarily in the same manner and not necessarily to the same degree. I personally experience my own bisexual tendencies more in terms of an attraction to masculinities, regardless of whether a particular person is a masculine-identified transperson, cis man or cis woman. I'm not necessarily attracted to femininity in the same way. Therefore, when it comes to defining or measuring one's bisexuality, I'd rather err on the side of inclusion rather than limit a person from embracing their own unique forms of sexual identity or expression. No one of us here is more or less bisexual than anyone else. The fact that we're attracted to more than one sex and/or gender makes us equally bisexual. This is not a pissing contest, and it would be to our advantage to remember the age old saying, "Together we stand. Divided we fall." Just my opinion. :suave: Yes there's a lot of what you described on this site. I ignore it.

[RustyPete]

"...Getting comfy would be the realisation that bisexuals are not all exactly the same.:)"
Agree, Gear, and same goes for heterosexuals as well, IMO they, too, have their likes and dislikes, their variations. As a Bi married to hetero for 35+ years, Ah can say there are a few heterosexual behaviors Ah'd like to try, and have asked to try, but she won't. It is the classic basic nature nurtured in a certain socio-cultural upbringing, neither of which was anything like mine.

[darkeyes]

Getting comfy would be the realisation that bisexuals are not all exactly the same.:)
Peeps, luffly man, no matter their sexuality are not all exactly the same... they r as varied and diff as the stars in the sky... superficially from afar similar.. but up close and inside seething masses of difference:)...

[Gearbox]

Agree, Gear, and same goes for heterosexuals as well, IMO they, too, have their likes and dislikes, their variations. As a Bi married to hetero for 35+ years, Ah can say there are a few heterosexual behaviors Ah'd like to try, and have asked to try, but she won't. It is the classic basic nature nurtured in a certain socio-cultural upbringing, neither of which was anything like mine.
Had a gf once who'd NOT suck my cock in 4 years. She'd rub my balls as I wanked myself sometimes, and I had to tell her when I was about to cum so she could jump off the bed and take cover.:bigrin: I did threaten to report her to the hetero authorities for her sex crimes, but she didn't care! Just didn't like that kinda thing.:( Didn't mind me giving HER oral tho, or intercourse after a few hours of seduction!lol

I think that DESPITE us knowing better, we still put sexualities into 'norms'.:- Gay men like this...Hetro men like this...lesbians like that...hetro women like that...bisexuals like EVERYTHING!:tongue:

[Gearbox]

Peeps, luffly man, no matter their sexuality are not all exactly the same... they r as varied and diff as the stars in the sky... superficially from afar similar.. but up close and inside seething masses of difference:)...
And that's why dating sites make so much money out of making 'perfect matches'.:bigrin: