Would you use your bisexuality to get out of serving in the military during a war?

[glantern954]

I think I would, especially this war.

[orpheus_lost]

I think I would, especially this war.

For this war, yes. For a legal war, no.

[smokey]

I tried to use it to get out in the 70's, after i was drafted. Didn't work. Eventually however they let me go early, I was told that I was unadaptable to military life and I told them that I could have told them that when they sent me my draft notice. I consider unadaptable to military life a badge of honor. BTW when I got my notice to report, I enlisted in the Coast Guard. I had no problem serving my country if I had to...I just didn't like the idea of getting shot at (or hit) or killing.

[codybear3]

If you sign up, serve your term...If you don't like it, maybe you should think twice about signing your name on the dotted line in the future...This goes to anyone going in to do anything anywhere... :2cents: :paw: :paw:

[arana]

Was I drunk when I enlisted????

[EludedSunshine]

(If I were in a position to be drafted) I would, absolutely. As much as I don't want to use my sexuality as any sort of crutch, I do not agree with a government's reasons for going to war 99% of the time. And I definitely couldn't be integrated into the military lifestyle...

[Herbwoman39]

My initial reaction to this question was "YES!!". However, upon thinking about it, were I in a position to be drafted into the military, I would serve my time.

We expect the world to treat us the same as straight people. We need to live up to the same obligations as everyone else is expected to live up to whether we like those expectations or not.

Equality doesn't just mean taking the good stuff and leaving the rest behind. You've got to take the good with the bad and just suck it up and deal. Just like everybody else.

[canuckotter]

I suppose I'm in a different situation because I'm Canadian and we're not in Iraq, but if my country needed my service, I'd sign up in a heartbeat and hide my sexuality. I'd be annoyed by the necessity, but I'm sure that'd be the least of my frustrations with military life. :)

If it were a draft, I might think differently. If I didn't agree with the necessity for the draft, I'd probably announce my bisexuality right away, and if they still want me, fine. Of course, I think I'm just about past draft age... :)

[glantern954]

I was speaking about in the event of a draft. In that scenario, I think I would not serve because if I am not good enough the rest of the time why am I suddenly good enough now.

Then again, if things started to really look that bad for our country (for example, an invasion) how could I not fight to protect those I love.

If I was already serving and a war broke out, I guess I would have to do the honorable thing and continue my service. As scary as that would be.

[JohnnyV]

I would not use my bisexuality to get out of serving. I object to what's happening in Iraq, and I think the war should have never happened. But if everyone who has the sense to see what's wrong with it, stays home, then the only people on the ground will be the lockstep minions who can't see what's going wrong. The lack of mixed opinions only makes it easier for people to exercise poor judgment and commit atrocities.

If there were a draft and I weren't in my mid-thirties, I would go. If I got drafted as a translator or something, I would definitely go. I would go with the intention of being the voice of restraint, calm, and ethics. I'd probably get discharged for some kind of insubordination. For instance, I have no doubt that if I were one of the soldiers at Abu Ghraib, I would have offended my fellow soldiers by telling them to stop and setting free some of those prisoners. How can I be so certain of myself? I offend people all the time and get myself in trouble, everywhere. But I do it based on deep convictions, for what that is worth.

J

[smokey]

Well ya know I was drafted and if I was going to go to Vietnam, I would have gone to Canada as I was opposed to the war. BUT, I was in one of the last drafts, I think that there were 2 after mine, I would have gone in but not to Vietnam so I chose to enlist. I had no problem serving, but I wanted to be in something that had a positive mission other than killing, so I chose the coast guard. Still I stuck out like a sore thumb and never fit in. I realized this earlier than they did so I tried to get out early based on my sexuality. Didn't work. If I had said I was gay, I could have gotten out but I am bisexual and they just shrugged their shoulders at that. It wasn't until a year and a half later that they decided on their own that I was a misfit and kicked me out...honorably.

[Azrael]

I would not use it to get out of military service, but that's just my sense of integrity. I enlisted and almost went in the Marine Corps when I was 17 as an Air crash firefighter, but came to my senses and told them I was an acid-head, which I was at the time. I'm now exempt from military service for three reasons. One, occasionally homosexual behavior. Two, I have screws holding my left shoulder together. Three, I have a history of manic/psychotic behavior. I don't think they let people like me have guns :bigrin:

[jedinudist]

It's not that I would use it. Nope. But Uncle Sam knows about it and he doesn't like it.

Go ahead, give us all weapons...

Then try calling us fags.

Survivor of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children

[wanderingrichard]

ok here goes, and i'm not being lunkheaded, just stringing thoughts;

arana, baby; being drunk when you enlist dont work.. they actually watch you closely and stop you from proceeding if they figger it out

one of the bravest men i ever met was a marine who was a raving flamer away from the rest of all that hoorah machismo bullshit... i would have and did on one occaision, follow him almost anywhere, he was that type of leader.

am bi, have always been.. am a military brat [ AF], am also a veteran in my own right [ Army, 3 conflicts, thank you mr. reagan. ] yep i got shot at , and hit too.

to survive in that strict structured environment takes a lot of self sacrifice courage and brains..also in this day and age a lot of political street smarts..i hid my bisexuality for over 15 years..had i not, i may have not lived very long, nor progressed past my 1st enlistment, thier social structure doesnt allow for abberation.. the Uniform Code of Military Justice doesnt have shades of gray when it comes to sexual preference.. you are either hetro, celibate, imprisoned for being homosexual, [ usually they claim sodomy laws] or out on your ear with either a general type discharge or a dishonorable one.. which means you'll never qualify for many jobs and almost no federal benefits of any type.

i volunteered right after the draft here in the states ended, and just after veitnam ended. i did so to run away from a home that was stereotypically epitomized in the movie footloose.. wasnt a damn thing there for me after being dragged all over the world..

nowadays, thankfully, no, no draft, and i discourage all young men and women who approach me about joining. i tell them it's not worth it. there are too many negative factors involved that would adversely affect their lives.too many lets go to war types trying to pick up the dropped tasks of their fathers and forebearers.. remember this is the video thumb generation..kids who cobbled together the voip companies and programs like skype and vonage, yahoo and google in their dorm rooms, or did marathon sessions of video games or chat room before during and after their homework..i tell these kids, use your brains.. look at what is happening to other kids your age who are in military and in conflicted areas..how many are coming home messed up in one way or another..

but, i also tell them; do not be afraid to give those who are in uniform a warm welcome home, a pat on the back, anything you can do to show you appreciate the fact that they sacrificed so you didnt have to, so you can run the streets in your hip hop or pride gear and all that tinsel and ink you think is so cool. but, you had better be ready to learn how to defend yourself and your freedoms right alongside these same people if we ever get invaded again [ war of 1812, wwII, 9/11 ] and have to fight as a nation on our own soil. usually that makes them think a bit, some it scares the hell out of, some don't get the references.. the smart ones, you can see the light come on.

yeah i got off topic. sorry.

short version, no i wouldnt use my sexuality to avoid or shirk that type responsibility. i've already proven that..

but thats just me.

[jamie63]

well, i'm still serving in the forces - joined up in 1980, and would not use my bisexuality to get out !

if you join, then try to do your time & enjoy it. You don't have to tell them you're bi, gay, or les! I knew when i joined up that there was a possibility that i could be sent to a 'conflict zone', and since joining up i have been in
several armed conflicts!!

jamie

[Long Duck Dong]

as a nz ex soldier, I wouldn't use a minor part of my life as a excuse for anything

sure i am bisexual.... but my bisexuality doesn't play a part in helping my fellow man or woman....

my platoon medic ( i was a sergent ) was a homosexual....so what...... he was also the best damm medic i have encountered in the armed forces, and he may bottom in the bedroom but by god, he was tops in the field and out on exercise...and thats what a lot of people tend to miss about the forces.... there is not just the armed personal... there are the engineers, medics, support crew, caterers, nurses, desk jockeys, radio personal etc etc..... now many of them may not see combat....but i am bloody sure that 99% of them are not there to shoot or be shot at, they are there covering the ass of the man / woman either side of them so that everybody gets out alive

sure the war in iraq is a bloody great screw up, but i take my hat off to the servicemen and women that are over there trying to smile and serve out their terms of service as they dodge bullets and bombs, wishing to hell that they were home with family and loved ones... a lot of us are sitting here talking about using our bedroom habits as a excuse, while people with family, partners and children, are over there praying they get home to sleep in their beds one more time

[scubaman]

When you take the oath and get sworn in you agree to obey all orders of the officers appointed over you, which includes the President. If you don't like it then don't go in. If there is a draft again and you feel that strongly against the situations the country is in, then flee to Canada or better yet to France. I am a 22 year disabled vet, so I guess that shows where my loyality lies!

[orpheus_lost]

When you take the oath and get sworn in you agree to obey all orders of the officers appointed over you, which includes the President. If you don't like it then don't go in. If there is a draft again and you feel that strongly against the situations the country is in, then flee to Canada or better yet to France. I am a 22 year disabled vet, so I guess that shows where my loyality lies!

But a soldier also has an legal and ethical obligation to disobey illegal orders. Now I know this isn't the easiest thing to do as refusing orders in a war situation, illegal or not, is likely to get you shot. That being the case, using whatever means in your possesion to disobey is the honorable thing. As the iraq War is an illegal operation, any non-violent action that would remove one from service would be ethical.

[DÆMØN]

The military ( any branch ) in Canada will not take Deafies. I know, cause I applied twice, and got rejected for my troubble. Yep even the militia won't take non hearies.

On the point of bisexuality and military service, why should it matter? Its not like yer gona go over there and screw the enemy to death.

[biandu]

I have a history of manic/psychotic behavior. I don't think they let people like me have guns :bigrin:


HA!... I beg to differ............. there are LOTS of manic/psychotic folks with guns .....lol


so i am sure it's because, of the other two reasons......lol


[btw-being totally sarcastic]

[biandu]

I don't think the question put forth was about whether or not.. a person's bisexuality should matter if you're in the military or whether or not bisexuality for some reason could make you less of a dedicated, loyal, top notch servant to your country...............it's the person's character that determines those answers.


for me the question was... would i use my bisexuality to not be drafted into the military during a war that i did not feel was legal/or warranted.


FUCK yeah.. and i'd used anything else i could possibly think of..

like Nohhum was a mohican indian... who threw blueberries at CIA and BIA and AIM was her best friend... and oh yeah... we have a history in our family of not working from Fri sundown to Sat sundown... and btw-.. all my toes are the same length except my big toes.... and i have a tendency to see butterflies come out the back of women's head after being up for 80+ hours.. .......... and.... and..... uhmm....... oh yeah............... i don't use syrup when eating pancakes................



NOW.. if there was not such a situation

I don't think i'd enlist..........but if i was drafted- I'd like to think i'd be there for my country and my family.

Hell yeah i'd be scared.....but everything about me would be completely gung ho..............and i'd be the best fucking servant this country ever had!

[timsgfdmo]

When you take the oath and get sworn in you agree to obey all orders of the officers appointed over you, which includes the President. If you don't like it then don't go in. If there is a draft again and you feel that strongly against the situations the country is in, then flee to Canada or better yet to France. I am a 22 year disabled vet, so I guess that shows where my loyality lies!


Scubaman as a sidelight the officer oath does not include anything about obeying officers superior to you. It just says support and defend the Constitution. Therefore when an officer commits an illegal act that person has no legal support to say he was just following orders.

Also a soldier has a legal obligation not to follow illegal orders.

[Azrael]

HA!... I beg to differ............. there are LOTS of manic/psychotic folks with guns .....lol


so i am sure it's because, of the other two reasons......lol


[btw-being totally sarcastic]
Meh, firearms just aren't my style. I do however have a pretty decent collection of knives and the like. Guns are for the lazy. A knife has a function outside of simple destruction.

[gthommo]

Here in the UK where Her Majesty's Armed Forces are happy to recruit gay, lesbian and bisexual people I assume merely being bi ain't much of a get-out. Decent liberal laws have a down side!

[12voltman59]

I am a vet and I went to one place where the US military undertook "a policing action" back in the 1980s, (the invasion of Grenada).

I volunteered to serve in the military--I joined the Coast Guard. I liked that service for several reasons the first being when I was very young, my parents bought their first boat and they took the safe boating course offered by the US Coast Guard Auxilary and then joined that voluntary civilian organization. I also joined because I figured if there was some sort of war or the like--being in the Coast Guard would reduce my chances of having to take part in combat and third--the Coast Guard was mostly known for being "The Lifesavers."

At that time I did not consider myself bisexual, but even if I had--I would not have used that as an excuse to get out of my service--

I can say that I do think that relationships between those of the same sex is not so uncommon in the military---there were some people in our division that were said to either be gay or bi---it really did not matter to me--and it was well hidden. I did hear about some guys occasionally getting caught giving head every so often.

I do not understand why the military freaks out so about same sex, sex....if it was an open thing that people were gay, then it would not be a security issue and just as there are rules against fraternization for hetero people within a command or unit--the same rules should obviously apply--if you serve in a unit together you should not be involved irrespective of the genders of the parties because this is something that does affect morale and unit cohesiveness.

Some militaries in the world allow homosexuals to serve openly and proudly--it is my understanding that the Israeli Defense Force is one and also the UK---you folks from the UK can confirm or correct me if I am wrong on that point..

I don't see how it hurts the service if a member goes home to a person of the same sex or opposite--a stable homelife is better than what most single service members experience--kind of lonely and often indiscriminately promiscuous....that is something that can hurt military performance...

As far as some of the hetero married people in the service--when I was stationed in Key West--the married enlisted housing area was known as "Peyton Place." There was more screwing going on beyond the bounds of the marriages of those folks than you could ever imagine----

The thing is with homosexuality or bisexuality in the military (they would not accept Bi--only gay as a definition --one step at a time--)--if a President in his/her role as Commander-In-Chief were to order the military to completly accept homosexuality in the service--the brass may not like it, but being good sailors, marines, soldiers and airmen-they would salute and say "Yes Sir/Maam" and get down to the task of restructuring the service...

They say that this could not be done but it seems to me that this is far easier of a task than it was to integrate the military back in the '40s....

The military became one of the main instruments of integration not only within the service itself--but in the greater society.

All it would take to for the military to accept homosexuality is for the military to make its mind up that "that is the way it is"

When you join the service, you are told to leave your opinions at the door--you will think what the military tells you to think--so just as whites had to accept blacks as equals in most cases and superiors in others---once the military accepts homosexuality--then it will be part of the culture of the service--and in the greater society...

Just like it took a few years to digest acceptance of blacks, then women serving in most roles-in a few years the issue of a person's sexual orientation would go **POOOFFF**

But of course-that is what that part of the right wing that gets so up in a dander about gays are afraid of--if gays, bis, lesbians, etc. are accepted by the military--they have no place upon which to stand to rally against such people in the rest of society....

[12voltman59]

While I would reluctantly go serve in this "war" if asked--I would most certainly not want to send a child---it's not that I would fear their death--but that like so many untold stories about this war-- I would not want my child to be like one of the many young people who have been permanently maimed in this war.

They have recieved horrorific burns thanks to the use of IEDs by the "insurgents" in Iraq and increasingly in Afghanistan--

I heard a story the other day of one young man--he had been burnt over 80 percent of his body---he did die but a second person featured was nearly as badly burned, but has survivied and is going through the pain of multiple skin graft operations, reconstuctive surgery of his face and other body parts and just the fact that he was so seriously burned over much of his body.

I would not want to lose the most precious thing (a child) in the world to this 'war" perpetrated by Bush and his band of merry neo-cons...who in my book are nothing more than criminals...I would rather have Tony Soprano as a friend than this bunch...

[Qetesh]

Hubby is in the military and he WOULD NOT use his sexuality for his own gain at all. But I'm curious how would you use your sexuality to get out of service? I cant see how that'd play a factor.

Q x

[scubaman]

In the US armed forces homosexuality is considered taboo thus illegal. They operate under the don't ask - don't tell policy. Since illegal and it comes out then the military discharges that person under a general discharge. Bisexuals are under the same regs.

[happyjoe68]

Hello Sailor!

For me the problem is no sexuality, but pricks telling you what to morning, noon and night - that's the worse aspect of military life and why I left the army cadets

[blue_hard]

No - if it were that much of an issue I probably wouldn't sign up in the first place (already served anyway).

[Herbwoman39]

For me the problem is no sexuality, but pricks telling you what to do morning, noon and night - that's the worse aspect of military life

That's my big problem too. With my attitude I can just hear it now "Drop and give me 50!"
"Sir, !@#$ you sir!"

Yeah, I'd get along REALLY well in the military (please note the sarcasm)

The other issue is that I'm turning 40 in January and I'm probably about 40 pounds heavier than I should be. It's that pesky marriage/baby weight ;-)

[LouiseBrookslover]

Wow, it is almost creepy how in tune I am with certain posters on this board. I was reading the post about "bisexuality and the military" and it got me to thinking about a lot of things. One of which is that my bisexual side, my artistic side, really believes in flux, in chance, in a life lived on the edge.

How ironic, then, that I could never pick up a gun in anger.

Not that side of me, at least. And not because I don't believe in killing, but because I don't believe in anything but a certain aesthetic sensation. The artist in me either is in the midst of that wonderful amorphic feeling or he is in the deepest of depression. The good times are better than I suspect most people have, although this aesthetic sensibilty, even in its best times, provides no real mooring. Nothing to truly believe in. Or to fight or die for.

But maybe life truly doesn't supply these moorings, and only artists can see this. Only artists can see that there are pleasures, beauties, but they are fleeting and they must be enjoyed while we have them. Nothing is guaranteed, and nothing really persists to moor us down. If this is in fact the case, artists see the truth but it might not be an especial blessing. We who are inspired by a glance, a word said perfectly, the perfect turn of phrase, a beautiful girl we will never have, live in a different world than those who find their thrills from a story that ties them back to a group, a culture, a nation. Such people get these aesthetic thrills, but they come from belonging to a group. Think of those people who get goosebumps from Lee Greenwood songs, for example. They feel emotion that comes from evoking a group myth. The emotion that this group myth evokes leads them to unequivocally volunteer to die for it.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not sure these people aren't happier. That's just the point. I believe the artist in me sees the world as it really is, and it can be a terrible thing. It is a basic human need to believe in something larger than ourselves, in a myth. To deny the myth and strike out on your own is the bravest, saddest, most noble thing in the world. But a part of me, sometimes, wishes I could be like those who don't feel as I do. Who can fight the nihilism that haunts my darkest hours by engaging in war.

I'm posting this to two threads, as it was inspired by both, and covers both questions.

[wanderingrichard]

my apologies to everyone for derailing the original thread and setting us on this thorny side track..merely relating my personal military experiences as a bisexual who had to seriously closet himself to stay alive, i never thot we would end up so far from the theme of the orignal question.

maybe my answer should have been, "hell no i wouldnt use it as an excuse", and left it at that.. :grouphug:
rich

[arana]

ok here goes, and i'm not being lunkheaded, just stringing thoughts;

arana, baby; being drunk when you enlist dont work.. they actually watch you closely and stop you from proceeding if they figger it out.
I was mainly asking because I didn't know how I got in this predicament in the first place. If I needed to use something as an excuse I'm assuming I didn't just walk in and enlist. If I was drafted I'm afraid I'd be the Vincent D'Onofrio character in Full Metal Jacket.

[LouiseBrookslover]

Talk about turning a thread off course. I had no idea Private Pyle was Vincent D'onfrio. Learn something new everyday.

[marine88]

Well when I was in the Marines during Desert Storm I thought I was straight and now during this war( in the army now), I have had quite a few bisexual encounters between the 2 wars, usually with couples and even been on the bottom once, but I don't think that makes me any less of a man to serve my country. Nothing sexual going on here for now but will pick up where I left off before I came here.

[wanderingrichard]

wow..vincent...i mean holy cow thats a huge jump going from a psyched out lunatic to a stand up whiz kid cop on tv.. no wonder i thot his face was so darn familiar