Belle asks....Have you been where I am? (off topic)

[onewhocares]

Hello FRIENDS, old and new. I have been on this site since fall of 2005 and have been privileged to have met so many people, both in person and on line. Most have become friends, some friends with benefits- just a wonderful collection of genuine people from around the world. I know that this thread is off topic but I have been placed in a situation where I think many you have been. I am hoping you can offer me your thoughts......

I have an elderly aunt, my deceased father's sister. She was the one who was always there for us, her five nieces and nephews. When we built our new home, she was supposed to come to live with us, but backed out a week after the foundation was poured saying that leaving her home was too emotional. About a year and a half ago it became clear that she was unable to care for herself so she moved into a Lifecare facility half a mile from our home.

Now I find myself in a quandary. My aunts health has deteriorated to the point that she is coming to the end of her life. She was hospitalized last week and it was determined she had a stroke, heart attach, UTI, kidney failure, high BP, macular degeneration. She was a diabetic and did not take care of herself. We were asked by the hospital if we wanted a feeding tube inserted or not. She already has a DNR order, and I as her Health Care Proxy and POA is must speak for her.

I guess my question is, if you have been in my predicament, what advice did you receive and how did you come to your final decision? I know that each and every case is different and I am not looking for intimate details, but rather a general feedback from those who have been through this. I thank you for taking the time to answer this request. I know my name on here is self explanatory, but I really DO care and would like to hear from you.

Belle

[Doggie_Wood]

...... She was hospitalized last week and it was determined she had a stroke, heart attach, UTI, kidney failure, high BP, macular degeneration. She was a diabetic and did not take care of herself. We were asked by the hospital if we wanted a feeding tube inserted or not. She already has a DNR order, and I as her Health Care Proxy and POA is must speak for her.

I guess my question is, if you have been in my predicament,..........

Belle

Belle, I am so sorry to hear of your ordeal. I am not going to suggest what to do in this situation, and I was in a very similar position with very similar circumstances almost two years ago with my father.

First off the bat - do you know or have you ever heard her speak of what she would want if this type of situation ever came up?? If she did, there's your answer. - If not, then;
Secondly, I would look at - Is there any hope or chance of her making a recovery from the massive onslaught of the illnesses/failures/attacks? In other words, will she be cognitive or in a vegitative state??

My father had diabetes and suffered a major stroke. When he was hospitalized, the staff inserted a feeding tube and and air assist tube before we could get onscene. We had discussed this very issue several times only months prior to the onset. So our decision was simple. Pull the tubes. That is what he wanted. He wanted to live - not mearly exsist. And he didn't want to be a burden on anyone.
That is why it is so very very important for people to communicate their wishes with their loved ones or those who would have the burden of medical decision making or the POA if something should happen. And there wishes should be put clearly in black & white, signed and witnessed by someone who has no stake in the outcome in the event of death.

Now, my personal opinion is that anyone who laying in a hospital bed or extended care facility bed, and that person is not cognitive of their surroundings and in a vegitative state is simply exsisting, not living in life.
I personally would not want to 'exsist', not being able to decide for myself what would happen to me in that state of being. I would want to be placed in my own bed or in a Hospice, be given a mophine drip to keep me comfortable and out of stress & pain, and let me drift to the celestial fronteer.

Again Belle, I hope I have helped in some small way. But know that you and your family are in my thoughts and prayers and have my heartfelt love.

Be good to yourselfs.

DW :doggie:

[rayosytruenos]

[...] Now I find myself in a quandary. My aunts health has deteriorated to the point that she is coming to the end of her life. She was hospitalized last week and it was determined she had a stroke, heart attach, UTI, kidney failure, high BP, macular degeneration. She was a diabetic and did not take care of herself. We were asked by the hospital if we wanted a feeding tube inserted or not. She already has a DNR order, and I as her Health Care Proxy and POA is must speak for her. Hi!

Well, I have had several relatives with very bad conditions and some of them have died, but we have usually taken the decision to keep them alive as much as possible, if the treatment doesn't imply making them having a worse quality of life than without the treatment. The feeding tube is somehow a bit uncomfortable and for instance, my mum would hate it if she ever has to have one again, but she survived and is sort of having a normal life with my family now. Your aunt seems to have her vital signals quite deteriorated, so I'm not sure what I would advise you to do. My sister when she refuses to eat she has had also a feeding tube, but the doctor just did it to make her eat normally. Otherwise when she has been quite ill for other reasons, she is usually fed with a gluco-saline flow into her veins.

I hope this can give you some ideas. All the best,

ray

[anne27]

My mother was also a diabetic who refused to care for herself. During her last few years of life I was her sole care giver. She had amputations and a series of strokes. It came to the point where there was nothing left of my mother but her body. Her mind, her spirit, everything that made her 'her', was gone. After her last major stroke, her children were asked if they wanted a feeding tube inserted.

My mother was a woman full of spit-and-vinegar. She was tough of spirit and would have hated lingering on with tubes pumping life into her body. It was a very dificult decision and there was some name calling and bad blood between some of the family afterwards, but the decision was made not to prolong her dying.

My two sisters and I sat up at the hospital for the next three days. It was the hardest thing I have ever gone through in my life, but I had to be there for her. She was with me when I came into this world, I had to be there for her when her body left it. It was heart wrenching.

I do not envy you your decision. My heart goes out to you and yours.

[dans94]

Hi,

My father-in-law died a year ago April after having been diagnosed with throat cancer the November before. When he went into the hospital for the last time he said that he didn't want any heroic measures to prolong his life. He stated that he wanted a DNR order. Well, here in California, a DNR includes a feeding tube (which he had been on for the duration of his illness). The poor man was given a saline drip with morphine and oxygen, nothing more. We gave him sips of water and put ice to his lips but for the last week he was pretty much unconscious. It took him two weeks to basically starve to death but that's the way he wanted it. There certainly wasn't any hope for any kind of recovery for him. It's a sad thing to watch somebody die but I'm afraid it's something we all can look forward to.

I agree with everyone else here. If there is no hope for recovery for her, let her die in pease, naturally. That's the way I want to go, even though I would like to live forever.

[littlerayofsunshine]

Belle,


I am so sorry for what you are going through at this time. My thoughts and prayers are with you.


This sunday marks the one year anni of the death of my father in law. His heart was failing and he could no longer withstand the treatment for his cancer. He had wanted DNR. And DNR he got. I believe no one wants to suffer, barely living, while in pain.


I can't be absolute, but if her organs are shutting down, her heart failing, it probably won't be much longer and she has a chance to slip away peacefully. A feeding tube probably wouldn't be enough to sustain her.

A hard decision lies ahead of you, please take comfort in knowing that in whatever decision you make, it will be the right one.



(((((((((( HUGS))))))))))

[12voltman59]

Belle--you and I have been friends on here since I first came here--I am sorry that your auntie is in such straits---at this point though--what is the use of prolonging life needlessly---we went through the same thing with both of my mom's parents in succession within a few months time---

I know--speaking for myself---I would not want any excess amount of measures taken when the outcome is pretty well set anyway---better to end life with some measure of dignity than to prolong a life spent stuck in a bed in a hospital or at a hospice--but then again---miracles do happen and people can rebound---

I guess you just have to have a family sit down and get a feel for the consensus is---no one can really tell anyone else about such things lest they are somehow involved---

As usual Belle, my thoughts and love go with you and yours--and I have missed you-- I heard from a bear that you were not feeling so good yourself---I worried about you like you have done when I had some rough patches--so take care dear and all the best with this situation!!!!

[raistkit]

hi belle: kit here i've worked in nursing homes for years and i've found it to be very rewarding work. as i am typing this i am thinking of some of my dearest friends and i wish they were here to answer your queation? so i'm going to go back and look at your question. and search my memory. kit

[raistkit]

hi belle: kit here again. sorry no easy answeres, but you do have to go with her wishes. wish i could help ease your pain, lost a lot of family to cancer if you need to talk to someone messange me. kit( no bi stuff here, just friends)


thinking of you kit

[Solomon]

i'd just like to say that flex an me both send our sympathies..... and i certainly don't envy the position you're in

[onewhocares]

Dear Friends,

I am not sure what I expected when I wrote this thread, but I am overwhelmed at the response. Your outpouring of support for me has touched my heart deeply. I have always known that the people that I have met on this site where special, and my impressions have come through. I thank each and everyone who has responded to my thread, both here and privately. The amount of support and heartfelt advice has been most appreciated.

I know that the decisions that lie ahead are not easy ones, but when I look back at the life that my aunt shared with us, the answers are there. She was an unselfish woman, giving her life to care for those around her. Be it her aged parents and her rambuncious nieces and nephews, she was our best friend and supporter in so many ways. Now I can give back to her the love that she shared with us for a lifetime. The quantity of ones life can not be measured in days but rather in the enjoyment and love of moments. Her moment of final joy is near and I can give her the best gift ever.

Thank you all so so much. I am proud to be amoung you.

Belle

[Curmudgeon]

Hello FRIENDS, old and new.
She already has a DNR order, and I as her Health Care Proxy and POA is must speak for her.

I guess my question is, if you have been in my predicament, what advice did you receive and how did you come to your final decision? Belle

As her POA you should follow her wishes as faithfully as you are able. I witnesses my wifes aunt kept in pseudolife by life-support gadgets for two years. She had had a stroke and was unable to feed or care for herself or speak, but her eyes begged to be freed from her prison.

I would hope that my POA would do the same for me!

[NEJack]

OneWho.... Your pen name is so accurate - you care and care so much.
I am with an earlier writer who in the same position decided not to prolong dying. There is a time for everything, for being born, for growing up, for being an adult, and for dying. If there is little liklihood of any quality of life, then why are we delaying what will happen anyway? Nature knows the time. It's us who intervene. As in a prevoius thread the real issue is other members, who might disagree. You are a good person and I think the right decision will come to you. Maybe in the middle of the night. Regards, Jack

[The Cheshire Cat]

Yes-I too had to make that kind of decision. My mother didn't want any extreme measures taken for her. We decided against the feeding tube-she was so very sick..and didn't last very long. So, it was not as if we were "starving" her. She went peacefully-totally unaware. Best to you and your decision. Cat

[Solomon]

i truly wish i had some sort of wise saying or words that would come close to comfort......

but it seems to me that if your aunt had the fortune to know people like yourself then she's lived well :cool:

[usedbear1950]

Dearest Belle,

You and I have been friends for some time now. I wish that there were some words of wisdom to impart. All I can offer is the experience I went thru with my Mother.
For over twenty years by Mom suffered with a heart damaged by Rhuematic fever, a radical mastectomy, strokes, heart failures, diabetes and open heart surgery. But being the person she was, she maintained a smile throughout. Over that period of time I received several phone calls to tell me she was rushed to the hospital and was in ICU. And yet she smiled.
As the end neared her kidneys began to fail. Dialysis was not a viable option. When I visited her she would grab my hand tightly and say a phrase that to this day haunts me, "Please don't let them cut my babies." As her oldest, I was the one she came to when things troubled her. But I do not know and probably will never know what she meant, if anything. It wrenched my heart.
We all knew she was dying and in order to preserve the dignity she always exhibited, we transferred her to a hospice. There she seemed to come back to the person we always knew. I would sit on the bed with her and watch old movies, like the old days. Her youngest granddaughters sat at the foot of the bed playing with their dolls and their Grandmother.
Two weeks later, during the night and in her sleep she passed away. And my only consolation to the loss of my frist and best friend, to the woman who raised me to be the man I am today was that she was no longer in pain.
When we laid her to rest I leaned over her coffin to lay a rose upon it and sang an old ditty she would sing to us. It was a song I sang to announce myself to her when she was in ICU. Years later I found out that this was a real song.
"The cows ass the pigs ass they all ass for you, down on the farm they all ass for you." (Pardon my NYC accent, we don't do hard 'k's that well...LOL) I sang this as I leaned over her casket about to be interred. I added, "And now the angels ask for you." My sister whispered to me that she knew I would do what I did.
I guess my point is that people should be allowed to die with dignity. And we the living should facilitate that dignity, mourn the loss of the their presence and always happily remember the good times you had together.

I write this on Mother's Day, the eighth one without my Mother in my sight but never out of my thoughts

I don't know if this helps you sweet Belle. I hope it does.

ur ever luvin
usedbear

[onewhocares]

If you are lucky, there comes into your life people who make a difference. At first you may not know how or why they were brought into your life, but time answers you. (Perhaps when we are not even looking) Well I must be blessed from someone somewhere who has given me a wealth of friends. Into my life has come a man, a learned man, one of immense insight and intelligence who for some reason has blessed mine. A love of a man cut from the same cloth as I. Who among you has not had the touch of the Bear. The ultimate gift is that of friendship....nothing, nothing can compare with the joining of hearts and minds.

When the time comes in our lives, hopefully when we have lived our lives, we can look upon the passing of another with the experience and compassion of the time we have spent on this earth. Never have I been so lucky as to be graced with so many kind and compassionate friends as on this site. I know that many have sent private messages and I say thank you.

With the understanding of those fine folks who have responded to this thread, you have only reinforced my thoughts. I agree, that when our time on this earth is coming to an end, we must prepare ourselves for a journey of dignity and compassion. Thank you to ALL who have shared the very private moments to aid me. I agree, that the quality of one's life is determined by the value of the time on earth and not the days spent. I should rather live one extra ordinary week of my life, filled with the joy of life, the value of friendship, and the deliverance of love, than a life time spent in a place not filled with friendship and love, love of man, love of nature.

Thank YOU all.

Belle

PS I am blessed with the comforting arms of a humble Bear, I LOVE YOU

[BreeIsMe]

Belle,
I am so sorry to hear about your Aunt. This is particularly hard when its someone who has been so wonderful to you. You are in a very difficult position as the health care proxy. I have several questions:
1. Did she every speak to you about what she would want in a situation like this? Often people hint or just come out and tell you that they would never want a feeding tube or respirator or dialysis, etc.
2. What do the doctors say about possible recovery of "meaningful" life? Do they think she could ever return to her assisted living situation?
3. What do you observe? Is her spirit gone? Does she really "want" to live anymore? If someone really has lost the will to live, it really doesn't matter what you do.

The body is an amazing thing and can recover from many diseases and misfortunes but figuring out when to say when is difficult, particularly in this country. Many people feel guilty about not "doing everything" so in order to make themselves feel better (not the sick relative) they give their permission to do almost anything. I think you have to find a happy medium where you can be happy that all "reasonable" things have been done and that "excessive" things with very little hope of meaningful results are not done. Obviously, youi know your Aunt well, have seen her over the years, and know her spirit. Do you think she would want to be kept alive longer with a feeding tube knowing that this wouldn't necessarily restore meaningful life? It sounds like this is something close to what you are experiencing. I hope there are others that know her well who can assist you in this process. Bearing the burden by yourself if not easy.

You know you can always lean on us at this site as we all wish nothing but the best for you and your entire family but we cannot make the decision for you.

Good luck and keep us abreast of what you are doing...

Love,
Bree

[CountryLover]

Dearest Belle,

I'm so sorry to hear of your impending loss. I too have been in this position. My dad had Alzheimers for 16 years, and I took care of him the last 2 years of his life.

These are the things I processed during his last months...

There is a DNR in place. That means your aunt has expressed her wishes in a legal document that she does NOT want to be resusitated. Those wishes need to be respected. My dad had one also, and before he lost his ability to communicate let us all know he did NOT want heroic measures to keep him alive.

Sometimes expressing love has to be done by doing the hard thing because it is the right thing. If your aunt has expressed her wishes, and asked you to be the one to make sure those wishes are carried out - the right thing is already before you. If there is no quality of life, why prolong it? Why prolong suffering to no end?

I took the spoon from my mom's hand, where she was dripping water droplets onto my dad's mouth after he had lost the ability to swallow. We put it away and then watched over him for four days as his body gradually shut down. He didn't give up until I sat with him privately for a few moments and promised him that I'd take care of mom and that his brother and mom were waiting for him. He was gone 10 minutes later.

Death is a part of life, a natural ending we all must come to eventually. Let her have her peace and dignity and count your blessings for having had her love in your life. One of the best things you might do is stay close to her, be with her as she passes on. Hold her hand, tell her she is loved and her passing will be gentle. That will help your grief heal sooner.

You're in my prayers dear friend,
Sara

[seafer]

Hello FRIENDS, old and new. I have been on this site since fall of 2005 and have been privileged to have met so many people, both in person and on line. Most have become friends, some friends with benefits- just a wonderful collection of genuine people from around the world. I know that this thread is off topic but I have been placed in a situation where I think many you have been. I am hoping you can offer me your thoughts......

I have an elderly aunt, my deceased father's sister. She was the one who was always there for us, her five nieces and nephews. When we built our new home, she was supposed to come to live with us, but backed out a week after the foundation was poured saying that leaving her home was too emotional. About a year and a half ago it became clear that she was unable to care for herself so she moved into a Lifecare facility half a mile from our home.

Now I find myself in a quandary. My aunts health has deteriorated to the point that she is coming to the end of her life. She was hospitalized last week and it was determined she had a stroke, heart attach, UTI, kidney failure, high BP, macular degeneration. She was a diabetic and did not take care of herself. We were asked by the hospital if we wanted a feeding tube inserted or not. She already has a DNR order, and I as her Health Care Proxy and POA is must speak for her.

I guess my question is, if you have been in my predicament, what advice did you receive and how did you come to your final decision? I know that each and every case is different and I am not looking for intimate details, but rather a general feedback from those who have been through this. I thank you for taking the time to answer this request. I know my name on here is self explanatory, but I really DO care and would like to hear from you.

Belle

I don't know what kind of help this would do for you, but here I go.. Im a CNA at an inpatient Hospice house. I work for Odysse of East Mesa and I just love what I do.. so many people old and young have crossed my path to spend thier last days in peice and comfort. we not only comfort the terminally ill(thats what I call them), but we also comfort their families.
some come to us and go home only to come back and die with us.. thats what we are all about..
I guess what you need to do is find out if she has Hospice Insurance and put her in Hospice.. we are unlike a facility. we are better. Ive worked Hospitals and Facilities and I just love Hospice. its so very rewarding and special. we don't get much for our care for all the families we care for, but their respect and love.
If this means anything to you, Ive helped. if not, Im sorry. just had to send this to you..

[my life]

I would like to offer my support to you. It is not easy. Your aunt seems to have made her wishes clear...I wish more people would do that. I also work in the health services,on the perifery, but still see the anguish that not having a plan inflicts upon families. I know that you will be kind and caring as your name says. My PRAYERS are with you.

Vikki

[NorthBiEast]

I know several people that have had to make this exact choice for their loved ones. Each of them found it to be one of the most difficult choices they ever faced. One chose to "do everything" in the hope of recovery and they made the "right" choice. Another made the same decision only to have her mother fade away a few weeks later. I have never met anyone who said "keep me alive no matter what." My parent's jokingly take it one step further "shoot me and get it over with if it looks like I'll have to be in a nursing home."

The hard truth is that no matter what decision is made, you will never know for sure if it was the "right" way to go. But you can have peace of mind in that you made the best decision you could.

I wish you and your family peace in this difficult time :grouphug:

[sexyboo]

I don't really have any advice for you that you haven't already received from people on here, i just want you to know that what ever choice you make, it will be the right choice. I'm sorry that you're going through this and i wanted you to know, that even though i don't know you or your family, you are in my prayers. may god bless you and yours

~Elizabeth