A Question on Compromising...

[diamond_tether]

We do not agree with cheating and find it to be completely inappropriate behavior, but there are cases in which we wonder about how the blame is distributed.

Case-in-point: What if the would-be cheater tried to talk to their partner (hopefully on more than one occasion) about the various feelings and desires they had, but were completely rebuffed? As in, to the point where their partner was disgusted that they even mentioned it and refuses to talk about it at all.

Even at its most basic levels - when going into a relationship, isn't it typically in hope of finding happiness with another person, encouraging your partner's happiness, trying to be together for the long haul (in case of marriage), etc?

If so, where's the personal responsibility to hear out one's mate and seek resolutions that make each partner happy? When it lapses, why isn't significant blame attributed to both/all parties? When does one's own comfort/peace-of-mind trump real internal concerns in one's partner?

[anne27]

I used to think everything was black or white-either people cheated or were honest. As I grow older, I see many more shades of gray and I'm not as quick to judge others (after all, who among us is without flaws?) as I once was. There are as many circumstances as there are people. To cast judgement on someone without first knowing their circumstances isn't realy fair. :2cents:

I try to be as honest and open as I can be. Not everyone is in the same circumstances I am in. I can't fault them for that.

[darkeyes]

Yas rite Anne...ther r so many shades of grey... hav always tried never 2 cheat... in principle don think we shud, but know only 2 well that ther r tims an circumstances wen we can all fall by the way. Hav cheated..been cheated on... either way ends up in pain an agony an lotsa tears. So me neva judges ne 1, cos am simply 2 flawed 2 hav the rite 2 do so.. an me track record aint gr8.

Even if me wos the perfect angel, an had neva been a cheater..dus that give me the rite 2 judge those who do?? Don think so..human beins r flawed an varied...an we shud try an understand them not condemn..... even if me had neva cheated, an God forbid me eva dus again... then me has sufficient otha character defects wich peeps can slag off.. an am judged often disparigingly on them... but we r all judgemental..wether we like it or not..I try not 2 b..but its inherent in the human condition 2 do so... its a flaw in humanity..an we jus havta liv wiv it!

[Long Duck Dong]

there is no two people to blame for cheating

how can a partner be responsible for your own actions when you stray outside of the relationship......how can any person be responsible for your own actions

did they point a gun at your head ??? threaten to cut your sexual organs off if you didn't fuck around ??? etc etc etc

the end statement is that your partner doesn't make you do anything, you choose to, then blame your partner to justify your actions


one thing that makes me laugh is the list of excuses I hear....
my partner refuses to indulge my sexual desires so I cheat
my partner refuses to let me talk about things that make them sick
my partner refuses to accept me and who I am.....

for a start, your partner is human with thoughts feelings, understanding, wants needs and desires, and they may not always match our own.....

just cos I am bisexual, doesn't mean that all my partners have to change their ways of thinking and understanding to match me.... and the same applies to me with them.....

I regularly hear about people cheating cos of their partners.... and in 99% of the cases, the partner doesn't make the person cheat, the person chooses to indulge themselves outside of the relationship / marriage, and then holds their partners responsible for the actions of the cheater....

its a bit like saying, * darling I am fucking the next door neighbor cos you wouldn't listen to me talk about my fantasies of fucking the next door neighbor so its your fault that i fucked the next door neighbor and now we are in divorce court*

[darkeyes]

No 1 sayin the partner is 2 blame Duckie... all we sayin is that circumstances exist where we can all fall. Wether it b weakness, selfishness alcohol wotever...yea, an loneliness an misery..in the end its our responsibility..a responsibility from which no 1 is completely immune....

[Sapphrodite]

To Cheat or Not to Cheat, That is the Question..... Or is It????

Everyone seems to be focusing on the blame of cheating instead of the other aspects Diamond Tether inquired about: the responsibility to one's relationship, finding happiness and encouraging it in your partner, and not closing off communications when your partner needs you most.

Possibly it's not the issue of cheating but what values you both share. If you both feel it's inappropriate to "cheat" then, regardless of gender, extramarital sex is off the menu. If one partner is bi and looking to explore but the other isnt supportive, or if your values have changed significantly because of this new sexual awareness, then it's not the cheating that needs to be negotiated, but each of your personal values that needs to be reassessed.

Looking at definitions of these terms may help clear the waters:

Cheating: "An act of deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition. Cheating characteristically is employed to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others. Cheating implies the breaking of rules. Cheating is a primordial economic act: getting more for less, often used when referring to marital infidelity."

Values: "Principles, standards, or qualities of a person or social group in which they have an emotional investment (either for or against). Values are implicitly related to a degree of behavioural freedom or autonomy by human beings; values steer or guide the person, on the basis of internally chosen options. Thus, values imply the (conscious) prioritising of different behavioural alternatives which are perceived to be possible for the individual."

"A Value System in its own right is internally consistent when its values do not contradict each other and its exceptions are abstract enough to be used in all situations and consistently applied."

Infidelity: "Generally defined as consensual sexual intercourse by a married person with someone other than his or her lawful spouse... A marriage in which both spouses agree that it is acceptable to have sexual relationships with other people is termed open marriage and the resulting sexual relationships, though still adulterous, are not treated as such by the spouses."

*Not trying to scare everyone off with excessive dictionary use, but the true meanings of words sometimes get lost with overuse, so I find it helpful to go back to the books.

Compromise is a scary word when it comes to your value system because it is usually not a compromise, but one person conceding their values and beliefs unto the other person's desires. In those instances, these concessions can build hostility within your partner for going against what they truly believe in, and will ultimately cause more problems in the end, (but unfortunately you wont see it till they blow their stack)!

I'm fortunate in my relationship that my S/O believes that my orientation is normal and acceptable. He does not view my being with women in a safe, emotionally responsible manner as cheating, as we both agree it's okay. Our marriage isnt "open" as in no rules, but we have laid out a responsible set of rules that allows for both of us to be who we are without comprimising our values deep down (aka no sex with opposite gender, 3somes, etc).

I remained "bi-celebate" (coined to express my refraining from same-sex encounters) for well over a year because I wanted to ensure that our values were the same. I didnt want anything to compromise our relationship, as my S/O is the one I love. We both grew infintely as a couple during that time and I felt comfortable about both being on the same page to explore safely and without damaging our relationship.

My advice is to bring home some literature, books, weblinks etc for your spouse to read, not on bisexuality from your point of view, but on theirs (there are plenty of books and support groups online for Straight Partners of Bi Spouses). Remember your S/O hasnt had as long to think about this as you, and they may be feeling inadequate, unloved, or possibly struggling with the notion you may be gay-oriented. Maybe consider some form of counselling so you can both talk openly about your true feelings and decide whether this is a dealbreaker or not.

Take your time, be patient: the wonderful world of same-sex encounters isnt going anywhere!! However the refusal to talk about how you feel, regardless of its nature, isnt healthy and obviously you two can't walk around ignoring it for long before your whole relationship will suffer for the breakdown in communications. Whenever there is a standoff, you have to go with your gut and be true to yourself - you have to defend your own values first.


Guess I added :2cents::2cents: worth instead of just :2cents:, but I hope it's helpful to someone out there.... ~Sapphy~ :tong:

[darkeyes]

Partners shud talk..all the time bout their cares, concerns, wot they want outa life, outa luff, outa each other.... a hard an fast rule which is necessary for couple to truly gel an become as 1.

However that is an ideal. In every relationship there exist areas wher words dont come easily, an sharing is difficult. It is sad, but it is so. Equally, ther r differences which each shud respect an never treat with contempt. Often these are concerned with sexual matters.. fidelity if u like, take sexuality outa the equation for now. Some people are quite simply incapable of sharing their partner with another. I know this from experience, and it has cost me dearly, and caused huge heartache in my life. Whether it is rite or wrong is of no consequence, it is.. and it shall always be in many human relationships.

What are we to do when our partner insists on our fidelity?? Accept their decision without question? Or do our own thing on the sly??? We are human, and I have mentioned before we are all flawed. I have loved and lost because of my insistence on the fidelity of another. I have loved and lost because of anothers insistence on mine. Hypocrisy? Not really..merely a belated partial understanding of myself and my character defects and the selfishness which is within us all. Human beings are complex animals and no amount of study can ever bring us full understanding of why we do what we do, and of the true cost, to ouselves and others, of our actions.

I have bared my soul at times in these threads about how shitty Ive been, as much as a warning to others as a need to expose my innermost feelings and the chaos which is often in my mind. I have used them as a therapy for myself, and while I am not sure that therapy has been altogether successful, it has at times allowed me the luxury of a gud long blub at my own self pity. But it has always been a comfort to me to know that I was not alone in my misery, and hopefully our shared experiences have been of some comfort to each other. This subject of cheating or infidelity almost more than any other.

When 2 people are so diametrically opposed in their view of the world, when one wishes to act on their desires outside of the relationship, and the other will not tolerate it what are we to do? Its a conundrum so many have to face. Respect the view of our partner? Or cheat? Its not an easy decision, however much our society or religion tells us otherwise. On the contrary it can be the beginning of the end of a loving relationship whatever course we choose. It will almost certainly cause heartache and pain not just to ourselves but our partner and God knows who else. If we stifle our need, our resentment however much we fight it, can create insurmountable problems within a relationship because of our frustrations of not fulfilling our desires.

Of course this can be the case in many things other than sex. Politics, social attitudes, religious difference, raising children and many other things have often proven to be the catalyst of the end of a relationship, for no two of us think the same. But sex is the most basic human instinct and probably the one which drives us more than any other. It is therefore only natural that this instinct is the one which causes most problems.

There is no easy answer to it. It is an area we must all find our own answers, and none will ever be totally satisfactory.

My journey to find my answers has brought me confusion, agony, lonliness, pain and misery. It has also brought misery and pain to others. Worst of all in some ways, to people I had never met, nor even knew existed. It is something about which I never dreamed when it comes to infidelity until now.

I dont have all my answers, and probably never shall, but I have some, and now go forward with my life more confidently and happily than for what seems an age. There remains so much I have to make up for, but I now have a peace of mind of sorts, and my answer is to spend my life not living in penance but devoting myself to the person who I treated so shabbily and with contempt. Forgiveness is a double edged sword. We are glad of it, need it, and yet somehow it increases the guilt we feel for our betrayal of those we love. Now I spend my life trying to rebuild the trust we once had. So far so gud.. Its a life's work.

What I know is that cheating can and almost certainly will cause chaos and unimaginable agonies to so many. Those who have, like myself, must live with the consequences of their actions. The question isnt so much whether to or whether it is right... it is whether we can live with the aftermath.. and it is not only ourselves who must do that...

[CountryLover]

I had an 8 year hetero affair and numerous bi affairs while married to my first husband.

I was faithful for the first 20 years, until I had enough of his abuse. Then I confronted him about it. When he refused to acknowledge it, even after a marriage counselor pointed it out in plain language to him, I told him in no uncertain words that I was divorcing him. I couldn't divorce him legally - no money, heart problems, no job, and a new baby just added up to more than I could handle in my beaten down condition - but I specifically said "I divorce you from my heart. It's over."

As far as I was concerned, he had broken our marriage vows irretrievably by his continued emotional, verbal and spiritual abuse, and I was no longer bound by them.

Do I feel like I cheated? Nope. Does it meet society's definition of adultery and cheating? I really don't care if it does or not. I did what I had to do to survive and rebuild myself. I won't do it again, for the simple reason that I won't allow myself to be abused like that again. I don't need to walk that road again.


As others have said, there are all sorts of shades of gray.

[someotherguy]

Rationalization is part of cheating. It is the lies people tell themselves and others to hide from the responsibility they have for their actions. If you don't know that betrayal of trust is morally wrong, then think and say anything you like because you are already beyond the domain of love.

[darkeyes]

Rationalization is part of cheating. It is the lies people tell themselves and others to hide from the responsibility they have for their actions. If you don't know that betrayal of trust is morally wrong, then think and say anything you like because you are already beyond the domain of love.
Wot bollox..many things r morally wrong but it does not put us beyond the domain of love... ya wer ok till ya used that expression! We r none of us perfect... now grow up an try an understand human nature an have some compassion for those who r not paragons of virtue! Put us beyond the domain of love an we are unsaveable...

[CuddlyKate]

You may well be right Frances but sometimes you can be a little cutting and harsh.

[darkeyes]

No more'n they deserve luffer... ;)

[FalconAngel]

its a bit like saying, * darling I am fucking the next door neighbor cos you wouldn't listen to me talk about my fantasies of fucking the next door neighbor so its your fault that i fucked the next door neighbor and now we are in divorce court*

That sounds like what my ex-wife tried to tell me, except the next door neighbor was a married salesman that she worked with and the talking about fantasies was not letting her date other men after we got married.

Some people are a real piece of work.

[the mage]

If you were able to achieve the openness and honesty we all claim to have in us you'd have been able to talk to you S/o about your sex all along and it would not be cheating. An open relationship is not a cheating one.

But hey, all humans are flawed and live an internal life that the world never sees. Claiming an omniscient understanding of all relationships makes a person harsh and foolish.

[someotherguy]

Wot bollox..many things r morally wrong but it does not put us beyond the domain of love... ya wer ok till ya used that expression! We r none of us perfect... now grow up an try an understand human nature an have some compassion for those who r not paragons of virtue! Put us beyond the domain of love an we are unsaveable...

I'm trying to reconcile your insulting tone with the smarmy sentiment in your signature at the bottom of that same post. What is the term you guys use over there? Wanker?

Grow up yourself, Mr. Wanker.

[anne27]

I'm trying to reconcile your insulting tone with the smarmy sentiment in your signature at the bottom of that same post. What is the term you guys use over there? Wanker?

Grow up yourself, Mr. Wanker.


Fran certainly doesn't need the likes of me to fight her battles, but perhaps you should rethink your words. Calling someone 'wanker' hardly proves your maturity level.
:2cents:

Oh, and I believe it should be 'Ms. Wanker'. :rolleyes:

[JoyJoyHollywood]

I have to say, I've always found it a bit ridiculous to share blame for infidelity. I can only say that in my experiance, when I enter a relationship where fidelity is expected it is my responsibility to maintain an honest view of the relationship, so that if I do not have my needs met and I begin get wanderlust for another partner I have to hash it out to an agreeable resolution or end it.

In my opinion, when I have an agreement with a person whether it be discretion, fidelity or abstinence from certain sexual or social activities I have to place as great an importance on the agreement and maintain and respect it as much as I do my desire to be with my partner. To me, disrespecting the boundaries of our relationship is undifferentiated from disrespecting my partner themselves.

If my needs change while in the relationship, it is my obligation to address these needs thoroughly until an accord is met. If no such accord can be met than it is my responsibility to inform my partner of any possibility of duplicity. If they still do not want to reach agreement, then it is my job to walk away before I hurt my partner and shame myself with my behavior.

I don't attribute my partners inability to reach agreement with me as a lack of concern for my happiness, however childish that inability may be. I consider it to be their personal boundary. To me, if I wish my boundaries to be respected I can only offer the same to them. It's not my place to change them, or make them comfortable with something that they have a true problem with.

For me it's a matter of choice between how much I want something and how much I want them. I have to be adult enough to make a decision about which is more important and act accordingly.

[someotherguy]

Fran certainly doesn't need the likes of me to fight her battles, but perhaps you should rethink your words. Calling someone 'wanker' hardly proves your maturity level.
:2cents:

Oh, and I believe it should be 'Ms. Wanker'. :rolleyes:

We have already established that I need to grow up. My point is that you need to fuck off.

I was expressing my opinion, and not addressing anyone in particular. Then the doorknob takes it upon itself to issue their mild personal attack. Disagree with my ideas, fine, attack me personally, and you will get a reply in kind.

What I said stands, now go sit down.

[darkeyes]

We have already established that I need to grow up. My point is that you need to fuck off.

I was expressing my opinion, and not addressing anyone in particular. Then the doorknob takes it upon itself to issue their mild personal attack. Disagree with my ideas, fine, attack me personally, and you will get a reply in kind.

What I said stands, now go sit down.
You really r a very offensive and childish individual. You judge as a child, without consideration for the feelings or concerns of others and go into your defensive shell by becoming quite simply obnoxious. Attack me all you like, but not those who may differ and argue with you and are not deserving of your bad manners.

Your opinion is as valid as mine insofar as it goes even if I disagree with part of it vehemently. My remarks were an admonition of your opinion and what I percieved to be your age of maturity. Your subsequent attack on Anne, if not on myself allow me no room to change that view.

We are none of us angels is all I argue and we all fall by the way sometimes. You no doubt are the exception.

Now, what I said stands... sit, stand, run, crouch, kneel, walk or fall down the loo or w***..please yourself...

And finally..MR Wanker?? tsk tsk... wot can I say???

[someotherguy]

You really r a very offensive and childish individual. You judge as a child, without consideration for the feelings or concerns of others and go into your defensive shell by becoming quite simply obnoxious. Attack me all you like, but not those who may differ and argue with you and are not deserving of your bad manners.

Your opinion is as valid as mine insofar as it goes even if I disagree with part of it vehemently. My remarks were an admonition of your opinion and what I percieved to be your age of maturity. Your subsequent attack on Anne, if not on myself allow me no room to change that view.

We are none of us angels is all I argue and we all fall by the way sometimes. You no doubt are the exception.

Now, what I said stands... sit, stand, run, crouch, kneel, walk or fall down the loo or w***..please yourself...

And finally..MR Wanker?? tsk tsk... wot can I say???

fuck you