Orientation and Spirituality

[Seigun]

I'm wondering:
Does anyone here experience a connection between their sexual orientation and view of spirituality?

In my case, my personal view of the spirit being without a gender translates directly into my experience of being a bisexual. In fact, it was this understanding--as well as the 'God is love' teaching-- that caused me to appreciate it instead of attempting to reverse it when I was younger.

My personal view goes deeper than this, but I will stop here simply to keep it brief.

Thoughts? Experiences? I'd love to hear them!

[ghytifrdnr]

I believe that every person is an embodiment of the Holy Spirit, and when viewed that way then having sex with anyone, male or female, is Holy Communion.

:2cents:

[Seigun]

I believe that every person is an embodiment of the Holy Spirit, and when viewed that way then having sex with anyone, male or female, is Holy Communion.

:2cents:

That's beautiful!
Thank you for sharing that! You've given me a lot to think about! :three:

[kitten]

I have faith that there is spirituality in everything, every day...
a conversation, a strong argument, in the butterfly that kisses the flower, and in the passion shared by lovers.
I have faith that spirituality leads to balance. There is a good and a bad in everything...the bee can sting but creates delicious honey, a rose has thorns but its fragrance is astounding, and the water that can drown you feels so good flowing over your skin.
I feel that relates to my bisexuality in the same way. I see beauty in people not based on their gender but what makes them unique and passionate about their life.

good thread, thanks!

[ForbiddenWindow]

To me, spirituality and sexuality have never mixed, blame American standards on the typical evangelical christian community. I am outcast. Even tho I am outcast, I know Jesus loves the sinners, the beggars, the prostitutes, and the homeless. Therefore Since I must be sinning by church standards, I must be loved not by my community, but by my savior.

[FerociousFeline]

I do.

For me sexual expression and my spirituality are very closely linked. Sexual expression is an act where I become as vulnerable as I am capable of being.
I find I open myself to my partner and to the Divine in that process.

[TaylorMade]

For me, my orientation is a neutral thing that can either help or hinder my spiritual growth. It comes down to one thing. . .am I allowing my sexuality to take control, or am I allowing God to take control? Drives are good, but mis-use,over-use, or abuse seem to get in the way of a person and their spiritual growth sometimes.

I guess I see it as walking a tightrope that God thinks I can handle because He wouldn't have allowed it to happen had I could not.

*Taylor*

[Danielle B]

I think my gender identity and my orientation has inspired me to become more spiritual, if anything. I figured that I was made this way for a reason, and it was a reason that my religion (don't mean to offend the religious here) didn't acknowledge or account for. I guess I've just come to believe that nothing in life is an accident, and everything is the way it is for a reason, and my spirituality will help bring me closer to who I am at the deepest level.

[Herbwoman39]

My personal belief is that the soul is neither male nor female but both. We are a reflection of the Divine which is also neither male nor female but both and neither.

I also believe that reincarnation plays a part in sexuality, albeit a very small part. Those underlying memories of being another gender might possibly influence sexuality. Though I really feel that fetal development and exposure to varied hormone levels pay a much larger part.

:2cents:

[Danielle B]

My personal belief is that the soul is neither male nor female but both. We are a reflection of the Divine which is also neither male nor female but both and neither.

I also believe that reincarnation plays a part in sexuality, albeit a very small part. Those underlying memories of being another gender might possibly influence sexuality. Though I really feel that fetal development and exposure to varied hormone levels pay a much larger part.

:2cents:

I've read before of the idea that sexual orientation is a past-life/karmic issue; for example, a soul might choose to be bi or gay in order to learn empathy and learn how it is to be part of a discriminated-against minority, or as karmic "payback" for having been homophobic in a past life.

Perhaps the fetal development happens the way it does BECAUSE of the particular soul's need? The soul has already chosen a body and brain of a gay/bisexual person, so the pre-natal hormonal happenings would be inevitable and almost besides the point? Am I making sense?

[MarieDelta]

I guess I'm more buddhist in oreintation than anything as regarding spirituality.
I feel that sexuality is between two or more (consenting adults) people and, as long as no one is hurt, everything is good :)

Spiritually I think it adds to the love on the planet, and that's a good thing.

I see humans in relation to their closest genetic cousins the Chimpanzee.
Chimps are known to egage in war and even genocide, and live in a male dominated system.

Bonobo Chimps do not engage in war or genocide. They are also bisexual and live in a female dominated system.

Personally, I'd rather be like a Bonobo than the other Chimps. :)

I see people around me acting with hatred for the "others" in this world and it frankly disturbs me. I'd rather love and be loved.

Love is better than hate.

Love will trimuph over hate in the end.

Sexuality = a form of play between adults. Adults who play together and get to know each other may not be as prone to attacking each other (esp if their is no jealousy involved).

Anyway, I've meandered through my thoughts on this, hope it makes sense to someone out there :)


Luv ya,

Marie

[coyotedude]

Being bi is part of who I am as a human being. So yes, it does influence my spirituality. But again, it is only part of who I am; being bi does not overwhelm all the other parts of me. Ultimately, it's all a question of finding balance. (Which for me is eternally easier said than done.)

Interesting tidbit: In some tribes, you'll hear gays, lesbians, bis, and trans folks referred to as "two-spirit" people. In the old days, they believed that your gender wasn't just about your physical plumbing, but also about your spirit. There's male and female spirit power (you'll also hear it referred to as "medicine"), and we each have a mix of both. (Mind you, male and female medicine is NOT the same as our views of masculine and feminine today!)

The belief was that gay men had more female medicine than male; lesbians had more male medicine than female; bis presumably had a roughly equal mix. In some cases, a man had so much female spirit -- or a woman had so much male spirit -- that they ended up being trans. (And in fact, in some tribes, even gay men who wouldn't be considered trans today would dress as women and take up the women's lifestyle.)

Personally, I do believe (strongly) in the male and female spirit power, and I do believe our spirits have an influence on our personality and our physical nature. But I suspect our sexuality is more complex even than the old beliefs. I've met lesbians who were not necessarily more male than female, for example, and gay guys who were not necessarily female at all.

But I gotta stop rambling!

Peace

[Herbwoman39]

Perhaps the fetal development happens the way it does BECAUSE of the particular soul's need? The soul has already chosen a body and brain of a gay/bisexual person, so the pre-natal hormonal happenings would be inevitable and almost besides the point? Am I making sense?

You're making sense, yes. I'm wondering though if you're talking about we as pre-incarnated souls setting up this current life situation OR do you mean that everything is pre-determined by Divinity and that we are fated to be the way we are?

Or is it something else alltogether?

[ohbimale]

For me, spiritual beliefs and practices are linked to sexuality. The God and Goddess do not care what your sexual orientation is. They do care that you are in supportive, loving relationships - sexual and non-sexual - that bring joy and fulfillment to your life. Keep in mind - All Acts Of Love And Kindness Are Sacred. :bipride: :male: :male:

[Danielle B]

You're making sense, yes. I'm wondering though if you're talking about we as pre-incarnated souls setting up this current life situation OR do you mean that everything is pre-determined by Divinity and that we are fated to be the way we are?

Or is it something else alltogether?

I'm talking in the sense of us as pre-incarnated souls. I think we are given choices as to how we want to "do" our next incarnation, and we're given guidance as far as which experiences will help us mature quicker. I don't believe in "fate" or anything being pre-determined. IMO, if such important things were pre-determined, then what's the point of our existence?

[darkeyes]

I'm talking in the sense of us as pre-incarnated souls. I think we are given choices as to how we want to "do" our next incarnation, and we're given guidance as far as which experiences will help us mature quicker. I don't believe in "fate" or anything being pre-determined. IMO, if such important things were pre-determined, then what's the point of our existence?
Its already happened..everything in our life thats past..so wosnt that ur kismet??? Ur fate?? Wosnt it predetermined??? It wos always meant 2 b. Its sum question... point of existence?? Even bigger 1..but wot I do know is so much of it is sooooo yummie an me wudnta missed it for the bloody world...predetermined or no.... :tong:

The shitty stuff? well..cud wella dun wivout any of that!!! :(

[Danielle B]

Its already happened..everything in our life thats past..so wosnt that ur kismet??? Ur fate?? Wosnt it predetermined??? It wos always meant 2 b. Its sum question... point of existence?? Even bigger 1..but wot I do know is so much of it is sooooo yummie an me wudnta missed it for the bloody world...predetermined or no.... :tong:

The shitty stuff? well..cud wella dun wivout any of that!!! :(

I don't think it was. Everything that happened in our lives IMO was the result of all of our choices leading up to that point. Life is the ultimate self-fulfilling prophecy- nothing happens to us without our choosing.

[darkeyes]

I don't think it was. Everything that happened in our lives IMO was the result of all of our choices leading up to that point. Life is the ultimate self-fulfilling prophecy- nothing happens to us without our choosing.
But whatever we chose...we always were going to choose...for isnt that just what we did???? And any consequences were always going to be....

[dafydd]

I don't have a religion nor a spirituality. I guess i thought i was spiritual a long time ago, but as I get older, I find myself just living my life, without the need for gods, or spirits, or a greater good.
When my grandma died 3 weeks ago, i was too embarassed to agree with everyone at the funeral that said she had gone to a better place. I knew she was just dead, and drying out in the coffin i had to carry. she had a jewish funeral and we (as the male grandchildren) had to bury her, shovelling dirt onto her grave. It was hard work and ir summed up to me what I had been thinking all along. People die. you bury them. that's it.
I don't feel lonely because of this, actually i feel free.
D

[12voltman59]

I definitely do consider there to be a link between my spirituality--not religiousity--that plays into my identifying as bisexual---

[DiamondDog]

I'm agnostic with Buddhist metaphysical leanings, so no my sexuality has absolutely nothing to do with religion/spirituality/anything like that.

[Danielle B]

But whatever we chose...we always were going to choose...for isnt that just what we did???? And any consequences were always going to be....

I can't say I agree with that. Life is dynamic; for any situation, there are many possible choices that one could make, and I don't think those choices are pre-determined. I think what determines which choices you make is what your mental/emotional/spiritual state is at a given time.

I believe that there is an order and balance to the universe that is beyond anything that we can comprehend, and free will is the reason for that. I remember hearing the rhetorical question millions of times of "Who said life was fair?", but it IS fair because we are always creating our experience through choice.

I guess I can't accept fate because I feel that makes us and our lives pointless- if my experiences have already been laid out for me, and there's nothing I can do to alter them one way or another, then why am I having them at all? It would feel as if my life is like driving a car without a steering wheel.

[Aravanww]

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.

thus quoted, so all I can add.. that is the base poem of who I am spiritually, thus, my being bi also stems there. To deny myself the experience of each path met, is to deny what my spirit needs.

So in the end and the simple answer to your question... Yes.

[Herbwoman39]

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.

thus quoted, so all I can add.. that is the base poem of who I am spiritually, thus, my being bi also stems there. To deny myself the experience of each path met, is to deny what my spirit needs.

So in the end and the simple answer to your question... Yes.


All I can add to that is "Not all who wander are Lost." :)

[Herbwoman39]

Fran & Danielle:

Here's a thought for the two of you. What if it's a combination of the two? What if we're given a Life Plan before we incarnate wherein certain predetermined and agreed-upon elements occurred in order to facilitate the learning of certain life lessons BUT along the way there are places we can make choices that determine how we get where we're going?

Who says it has to be either-or? Why not both? ;)

[Danielle B]

Fran & Danielle:

Here's a thought for the two of you. What if it's a combination of the two? What if we're given a Life Plan before we incarnate wherein certain predetermined and agreed-upon elements occurred in order to facilitate the learning of certain life lessons BUT along the way there are places we can make choices that determine how we get where we're going?

Who says it has to be either-or? Why not both? ;)

That's a great question- why NOT both? I do believe that to a point, and guess I didn't do a very good job of fully explaining myself. I think we definitely are given parameters within which to work, if for no other reason to keep ourselves somewhat focused- otherwise I could see how we could become overwhelmed.

[AdamKadmon43]

I don't have a religion nor a spirituality. I guess i thought i was spiritual a long time ago, but as I get older, I find myself just living my life, without the need for gods, or spirits, or a greater good.
D
Thank you....

What is it with all this "spirituality crap?"

Why does it seem to be so damned impossible for people to just live their lives and be what they are without the crying necessity to build more in to it than can ever be rationally justified.

Oh, well ... I suppose if they need all that, then I should just leave them alone and let them have it.

Adam

[Seigun]

Thank you....

What is it with all this "spirituality crap?"

Why does it seem to be so damned impossible for people to just live their lives and be what they are without the crying necessity to build more in to it than can ever be rationally justified.

Oh, well ... I suppose if they need all that, then I should just leave them alone and let them have it.

Adam

Spirituality doesn't have to be based on a belief in the unseen. Not having one is just as fine an angle as anything else in this thread.

My goal in starting it was on the assumption that some people would have come to a conclusion about how they thought about "life, the universe, and everything" and tell briefly, whether or not they thought their sexuality hinged on that in any way.

There's no need to question 'why or why not' or the 'needs' of others; You're encouraged to join in as you are. :bigrin:

[Mr chadw]

i am a reconstructionist jew so from my out look my Spirituality dose not realy interfear with my Orientation. my synagogue even has lgbt suport days so i dont realy have any problums.

[Seigun]

Just a quick interjection:

Thank you, everyone, for sharing your thoughts on this question! All of your answers have been very insightful so far.

[FalconAngel]

I've read before of the idea that sexual orientation is a past-life/karmic issue; for example, a soul might choose to be bi or gay in order to learn empathy and learn how it is to be part of a discriminated-against minority, or as karmic "payback" for having been homophobic in a past life.

Perhaps the fetal development happens the way it does BECAUSE of the particular soul's need? The soul has already chosen a body and brain of a gay/bisexual person, so the pre-natal hormonal happenings would be inevitable and almost besides the point? Am I making sense?


Interesting theory; And it actually makes sense.

As Pagans, we are firm believers in reincarnation, and the soul goes through many lives, genders and sexualities as it develops. It could be something like you believe.

[Danielle B]

Interesting theory; And it actually makes sense.

As Pagans, we are firm believers in reincarnation, and the soul goes through many lives, genders and sexualities as it develops. It could be something like you believe.

I definitely believe that.

It's funny, because I was raised Catholic, and all along I didn't feel "right" with it, ever since I was a kid. I remember sitting in Sunday school and thinking to myself that she really didn't expect me to believe what she was telling me... lol But, I didn't really give much thought to the topic of spirituality at all for years because I confused spirituality with religion (I was taught they were one and the same) and didn't find religion very spiritual at all.

When I was 17, I had a dream that was unlike any other dream I had before. In it, I was a girl (and having been born male in this life, and being 17 and insecure and nowhere near ready to process being TG I was very freaked out by the dream), and I was in 14th or 15th century France and being forced to have an abortion because I wasn't married. I just blew off the dream as just really weird and didn't give it a second thought for years.

Then, after I separated two years ago, and was quite disillusioned with everything about life, I had another dream that seemed much more "real" than most other dreams. I was in ancient Rome during the 2nd century, and was arriving at the Coliseum for a fight. I had a very uneasy feeling as I knew in the pit of my gut that I was going to die that day. Just before I walked into the arena, I heard my own voice inside my head telling me not to worry- that if I die, I don't REALLY die. That's when I put the first dream into perspective, and I have been convinced of reincarnation ever since.

I'm still in the process of putting all the pieces together so to speak; I know that life isn't what I was raised to believe it was. I do know that all of this has forced me to question every last thing I thought I knew about everything, though.

[MarieDelta]

One more thought that occured to me yesterday.

We are all part of "God" (the Creative Force, the Creator, the Great Spirit) therefore making love to someone is like making love to "God".

:)

[ghytifrdnr]

One more thought that occured to me yesterday.

We are all part of "God" (the Creative Force, the Creator, the Great Spirit) therefore making love to someone is like making love to "God".

:)

Sounds like we're on the same wavelength. That's what I said in my post at the beginning of this thread.
:flag4:

[darkeyes]

I can't say I agree with that. Life is dynamic; for any situation, there are many possible choices that one could make, and I don't think those choices are pre-determined. I think what determines which choices you make is what your mental/emotional/spiritual state is at a given time.

I believe that there is an order and balance to the universe that is beyond anything that we can comprehend, and free will is the reason for that. I remember hearing the rhetorical question millions of times of "Who said life was fair?", but it IS fair because we are always creating our experience through choice.

I guess I can't accept fate because I feel that makes us and our lives pointless- if my experiences have already been laid out for me, and there's nothing I can do to alter them one way or another, then why am I having them at all? It would feel as if my life is like driving a car without a steering wheel.Am a huge believer in kismet Dani... neither of us can prove things either way. Whether every act is predetermined or not I cant say for certain, but 1ce its happened it seems to me that it was our destiny and therefore unchangeable..it was always going to be...

How much is true freedom of thought, and how much an illusion and our thoughts were predestined, God Im not a brill philosopher..merely a lil girl who has her own ideas an who questions everything, and argues accordingly.

Herbwoman may have a point in that it may be a bitta both... Im not God, so I am not privy to all the answers. How that would work I havent a clue..Im not even sure there are answers to the kismet thing.. how it works, whether it works just fascinates me, and deep down I do believe whatever happens is our fate... and if that is the case, at least in part...probably even substantially, our destiny is therefore out of our control....

Kismet does not make our lives pointless, for we do not know what is our eventual destiny and therefore we choose our fate by selecting options within the perameters of our time on the planet... real or illusory. Not everything, whether you believe in fate or not is in our control... but in the end whether our lives are not prefated or whether they are is not relevant.. its an intellectually philosophical argument which is interesting but not crucial to our existence... what is crucial is how we conduct our lives, whether within the context of predestined fate or whether we do indeed have substantial influence on our lives.

None of this means we shouldnt keep on having a go at controlling our fate.. on the contrary, it is imperative that we do, for life would simply be awful if we just sat back and let things roll over us and accept whatever will be... thats not for me.. if it was I would simply have given up at the first knockdown...

[coyotedude]

Thank you....

What is it with all this "spirituality crap?"

Why does it seem to be so damned impossible for people to just live their lives and be what they are without the crying necessity to build more in to it than can ever be rationally justified.

Oh, well ... I suppose if they need all that, then I should just leave them alone and let them have it.

Adam

Because people for thousands of years have looked up at the sky and asked "why?"

Because people for thousands of years have pondered the universe and our place in it.

Because people fear the unknown and the unknowable.

Because people love, and hate, and laugh, and cry.

I could go on and on.

Reason is a great and powerful tool. But even reason cannot answer all questions.

Astronomy can explain many of the details of stellar birth, development, and death. Physics can describe the intricacies of matter at the heart of nearly every star. But neither astronomy nor physics can tell me why the night sky is beautiful.

It just is.

Peace

[Lorcan]

Thank you, coyotedude.

I too was once agnostic. When asked if i believe in God i would reply "why?... my life goes on in the same way whether i believe in God or not. I don't remember anything before i was born, so why should i have anything to remember after i die?"

Then God came along with a baseball bat and hit me up side the head. Now i believe! :eek: ;)

I do think my bisexuality impacts my spiritual beliefs. I believe that God is both male and female... how can you create something that is not inside of you? I believe in reincarnation; i believe i've been both several times.

I believe in both fate and free will: i believe God lives outside of time...If you look at the whole of life in it's entirety from outside of time, it's all been decided: fate. But if you look at it from where we stand it's free will.

I like Herbwoman's "life plan".
I think my "life plan" is to find the geocaching i hid in my previous life; then i win! :tong:

[AdamKadmon43]

***** Beware of gods with baseball bats, for they shall take a swing at your head in order to attempt to make an impression upon your brain (and to scare the hell out of you, and cause you to kiss their ass, and do terrible things in their name) ****

I suppose that it might have been prudent of me to have exercised some good judgement, and asked for a definition of "spirituality" before I started saying things that were, by virtue of making certain pre-suppositions, absolutely guaranteed to get me into trouble. I took it to mean that one is possessed with some sort of pre-disposition towards knowing more than one can seem to know by any normal means.

Believe it or not, I too look at this most spectacular and incredible universe that I appear to be existing in with awe and a great deal of amazement. Judging from the empirical evidence that we observe, it would seem as if there are great and wonderful natural laws that operate in every direction that we look. It would seem almost as if there is some design and perhaps some purpose guiding those natural laws.

AND I AM WILLING TO LET IT GO RIGHT THERE.

I am humble enough to admit that maybe there are things that I can not know. I am strong enough to admit that I can live my life without the necessity for pretending that I have such knowledge. I am brave enough to face the probability that someday I shall cease to exist (after I get done annoying the crap out of people).

I most probably should get back to what got this started to begin with.

I do not believe that we are possesed by a spirit or spirits. I do not believe that we have any sort of soul, or anything else that transcends our physical being. But I do believe that we are rather magnificant, interesting, wonderful and very complex creatures that possess a great deal of understanding about our own existence. Probably something very unique in this corner of the Universe.

Adam

[coyotedude]

I don't know that you necessarily got yourself in trouble, Adam. After all, aren't you simply voicing what you and many others in the world think? And I really have no particular issues with your world view. Whether you believe in spirituality or not is your business, not mine; that you choose to share your thoughts is appreciated by me, no matter how they may differ from my own.

I do have a problem when those who reject spirituality cast aspersions on those of us who do not. I'm not talking about the doubts of skeptics, which are by definition natural and normal. I'm talking about value judgments made by skeptics about those who believe.

In my experience I have found too many skeptics to have no more tolerance, acceptance, or patience with other world views than, say, Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson. Skepticism can be just as black and white as the faith of any evangelical Christian, Muslim fundamentalist, or ultra-orthodox Jew; either you accept the Truth or you wander lost in the desert. Such a world view is troubling for those of us who recognize the many shades of gray in life.

What is doubly ironic is how few skeptics have any knowledge or understanding of the spiritual values and practices they condemn. In just our own little online community, I am constantly amazed at the misstatements of fact and outright bogus claims made about religion and spirituality by many atheists and skeptics. It's not that they are lying. But they are not drawing conclusions based on hard facts, but rather on their own beliefs, assumptions and biases.

Indeed, skeptics are not immune to fallacy. Skeptics are just as prone to mistake rhetoric for reason as we poor believers are. Reason may be superior to belief, but I'm always amazed at how few disciples of Reason can apply solid reason to their arguments. More than once, I have found myself wondering how skeptic X can be so blind to the fallacies of his or her arguments if even I as a believer can so plainly see them!

The hard truth is that skeptic or believer, atheist or spiritual seeker, we are all human. We all have our ignorance and our assumptions and our biases; we are all blind and deaf, each in our own way. (Too bad we're not mute more often to go along with that.)

Whether you accept or ridicule my faith in the spiritual world ultimately doesn't matter; it's my life, and my choice, and my faith, and I will live it the best way I can.

Peace

[AdamKadmon43]

I don't know that you necessarily got yourself in trouble, Adam. After all, aren't you simply voicing what you and many others in the world think? And I really have no particular issues with your world view. Whether you believe in spirituality or not is your business, not mine; that you choose to share your thoughts is appreciated by me, no matter how they may differ from my own.

Peace
It would appear as though I have managed to make the mistake of doing something in a forum that I have taken great extremes to avoid doing in the ordinary world.... That being getting my self involved in a discussion with people of religious persuasions.

It was totally my fault. I started it by throwing out some very ill-conceived comment about spirituality. And I intend to atone for that bad choice of judgement by shutting up and going away.

But not until I attempt to correct a few misconceptions that I seem to have gotten perpretrated. And before I do that, I suppose that I should try to clarify some terms.

There is a particularly annoying term called "skeptic" that religious people tend to apply towards people who are doubtful about the existence of god. I am not a "skeptic"... I simply do not know.

Misconception #1:
"In my experience I have found too many skeptics to have no more tolerance, acceptance, or patience with other world views than, say, Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson."

Wrong.... The Jerry Falwells and the Pat Robertsons of the world would, if given the political power to do so, most probably pass laws that would make my life style (if not my very existence) illegal. And if you do not believe that, you are delusional.

Us "skeptics" would most probably allow everyone else to live their lives as they saw fit.

Misconception #2
"What is doubly ironic is how few skeptics have any knowledge or understanding of the spiritual values and practices they condemn."

Not So...I was raised in a very devout religious environment. I had the misfortune of having had some of their spiritual values and practices quite emphatically placed upon my backside when, as child, I did not comform to their notions as to what was "spiritual" and what was not. I suppose that I might also mention the fact that I have spent a great deal of time taking classes in Comparative Religion.

Misconception #3
"More than once, I have found myself wondering how skeptic X can be so blind to the fallacies of his or her arguments if even I as a believer can so plainly see them!"

I suppose that I will have to give you that one......beliefs will inevitably manage to supercede rational arguments in most cases.

...And just one more little thing.....

"I do have a problem when those who reject spirituality cast aspersions on those of us who do not"

I may attack a person's argument, but I never, ever resort to attacking the person who is making the argument.

And peace to you to.

Adam

[Lorcan]

well here's what i don't like, since were on the topic... this confusion of "belief" with "knowledge". I don't actually "know" anything about God or even whether she exists. I could be all wrong. But i "believe" these things.

And this notion that i made up a god because i need to believe in something is bullshit. I wasn't looking for a god when i had that "spiritual experience" (that's what i meant by baseball bat) I thought i was fine believing that god didn't matter to my life.

Now that "spiritual experience" might be something i ate that day... it may totally explainable in the physical world. I am a mostly logical person. But I know how it felt, and i am the ONLY person who knows how it felt. And until you have one yourself, don't judge.

It may [gasp] happen to you! :eek: :bigrin:

[coyotedude]

Adam: If "spirituality crap" wasn't an aspersion, then what the hell was it? The whole point of your post was in essence rolling your eyes at those of us who feel the need for a "security blanket" called spirituality! So I ain't buying that argument for squat, buddy! :)

You may find the term "skeptic" annoying, but I think it fits perfectly: someone who is skeptical. In fact, skepticism is acknowledged within the realms of philosophy and science. Here's what Wikipedia has to say re: scientific skepticism:


A scientific (or empirical) skeptic is one who questions the reliability of certain kinds of claims by subjecting them to a systematic investigation.... Considering the rigor of the scientific method, science itself may simply be thought of as an organized form of skepticism.... the skeptic generally accepts claims that are in his/her view likely to be true based on testable hypotheses and critical thinking.

I will grant you the fact that Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson aren't nearly as nice as most people who don't believe in God. (They're also not as nice as most people who do believe in God, but we'll leave that aside for now.) I probably was a bit extreme in how I phrased my argument. But the point I was trying to make is that many skeptics are NOT necessarily tolerant or accepting of other views, certainly not as much as they would like to believe. I can only assert my own experiences here, unfortunately. (Please note I am trying to couch my statements by saying "many" rather than "all". I am well aware that skeptics, like believers, are a varied lot themselves.)

I also stand by my assertion that many skeptics have little knowledge or understanding of religious or spiritual practices. The fact that you have some very personal knowledge does not mean that others do as well. That would be a fallacious argument, I believe! And even you quite possibly (and most understandably) could have a bias when studying comparative religions, if your own experience with religion was as painful as it sounds.

Essentially my point is that skeptics (or whatever the hell word you want to use) are human and subject to the same human irrationalities as believers (which in itself can be a loaded label). So I raise my eyebrows when a skeptic asserts the superiority of reason and then relies on rhetoric, belief, and bad logic to back these claims.

Peace, dude!

[Dagni]

i don't know, i think that my view on Satan which is very individual and specific brought me in situation that i can be completely free.
I only see him as a symbol against christianity and all other religions, since Scandinavians in general has never accepted christianity or any other religion at all.........so i would rather stick to Satan as a symbol of freedom against those stupid and weak religious hypocrats.

[DiamondDog]

i don't know, i think that my view on Satan which is very individual and specific brought me in situation that i can be completely free.
I only see him as a symbol against christianity and all other religions, since Scandinavians in general has never accepted christianity or any other religion at all.........so i would rather stick to Satan as a symbol of freedom against those stupid and weak religious hypocrats.

But by actually believing in Satan aren't you just being one of those stupid and weak religious hypocrites yourself, even if you're not Christian or another religion?

I was always under the impression that "Satanism" or the "church of Satan" are just other words for Agnosticism or secular humanism and neither of these believe in the idea of an "evil" diety like Satan in the Christian Bible or the Jewish Torah/Talmud.

I've found that some pagans/wiccans can be cool and down to earth and don't shove their beliefs down your throat; but some can be just as self righteous and holier than thou as the Christians/Christian teachings that they vehemently dislike and hate.

[Dagni]

But by actually believing in Satan aren't you just being one of those stupid and weak religious hypocrites yourself, even if you're not Christian or another religion?

I was always under the impression that "Satanism" or the "church of Satan" are just other words for Agnosticism or secular humanism and neither of these believe in the idea of an "evil" diety like Satan in the Christian Bible or the Jewish Torah/Talmud.

I've found that some pagans/wiccans can be cool and down to earth and don't shove their beliefs down your throat; but some can be just as self righteous and holier than thou as the Christians/Christian teachings that they vehemently dislike and hate.

Diamond, plase, my "belief" in Satan have no any religious background, it's just something what started in Scandinavia, in Norway to be precise when whole Black Metal scene have develop with Øystein Aarseth (a.k.a. Euronymous), founder of famous band Mayhem. His views used to be very similar with mines, but after he was killed by his fellow and "freind", but whole Black Metal view on Satanism have nothing with such idiots like Anton LaVey or Alister Crawley, cause they based everything in their own purposes just pretending to be Satanists, but actually they were nice people.
Also there was Swedish band Bathory with Quorthon who was also represented Satanism on completely individual level rejecting any Satanic learnings from anyone.

So, it is true that most of Black Metal guys don't like each other, even if they're in same band, but it's all based on individual level, you know, like a new view on Satanism in general.
Just leave Crawley and LaVey aside.