Ladyboys?

[cakehead]

Does anyone else have an attraction to TV's, trangendered, ladyboys, shemales etc (I aware some of these names can offend)?

[TaylorMade]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1220/1111477093_bf7f96eab6.jpg

The following terms are verboten, Re: the transgendered
"shemale"
"ladyboy"
"chick/w dick"
"trannie"

If you use them, you have none to blame but yourself for the summary ass-kicking by the transwomen on the forum.

*Taylor*

[AdamKadmon43]

Please watch how you phrase things cakehead.

Please keep in mind that you must always be totally politically correct...... You must never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever say anything that anyone would even remotely find offensive. Being un-aware that it is offensive is no excuse. You should have, at the very least, some intuitive knowledge as to what might be offensive to some one.

And if you persist in using terminology that someone might find offensive, the "Political Correctness" police shall show up at your house and force you to participate in "Sensitivity Training".

And if that does not solve the problem, then they may be very well be justified in extracting your tongue.

Thank you for your understanding and co-operation and have a nice day.

:)

[Germanicus]

Just as an aside, what are acceptable "labels" (for want of a better word)?

[Skater Boy]

Just as an aside, what are acceptable "labels" (for want of a better word)?

Trans-person, Trans-woman, etc. I've even heard that some favour the "T-girl" label.

[Biboz49]

Please watch how you phrase things cakehead.

Please keep in mind that you must always be totally politically correct...... You must never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever say anything that anyone would even remotely find offensive. Being un-aware that it is offensive is no excuse. You should have, at the very least, some intuitive knowledge as to what might be offensive to some one.

And if you persist in using terminology that someone might find offensive, the "Political Correctness" police shall show up at your house and force you to participate in "Sensitivity Training".

And if that does not solve the problem, then they may be very well be justified in extracting your tongue.

Thank you for your understanding and co-operation and have a nice day.

:)

LOL! So very true Adam and that's all I'm gonna say in case I say something the wrong way.

[MarieDelta]

Ok lets see now.

I let most people make a mistake before I send in the sensitivity trainers.

But you know that some of those terms are bound to offend, why use them?

Trying to get attention? is that what it is?

Some of those terms you mentioned were coined by the pron industry to sell things involving transpeople. Why do we get upset at that?

Imagine someone calling the Female person closetest to you a wh*re. That is exactly the type of insult we are dealing with here. It reduces people to mere objects of lust.

Anyway don't be afraid to ask, but try to be nice with the terms you use..


all the best,
Marie

[DiamondDog]

What if the person refers to themselves in one of those terms like a shemale, lady boy, or any of the other terms, and they don't care if other people do this or use these terms?

Or they're from a non western culture that uses terms that really should not be compared to transgender/transsexualism since these are modern day western terms?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Transgender_in_non-western_cultures

[AdamKadmon43]

What if the person refers to themselves in one of those terms like a shemale, lady boy, or any of the other terms, and they don't care if other people do this or use these terms?

Or they're from a non western culture that uses terms that really should not be compared to transgender/transsexualism since these are modern day western terms?



Good point DD.

In my own particular case, I really do not mind it if they call me a queer.

But I really wish that they would be a bit more accurate about it and call me a semi-queer.

[MarieDelta]

What if the person refers to themselves in one of those terms like a shemale, lady boy, or any of the other terms, and they don't care if other people do this or use these terms?

Or they're from a non western culture that uses terms that really should not be compared to transgender/transsexualism since these are modern day western terms?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Transgender_in_non-western_cultures


There are cultures that do have established third genders( ie: Kathoey, Hirjas .) I wish that western culture acknowledged a third gender sometimes, it would make my life easier, I think.

And I am all for people Identifying themselves as they wish, you want to be called "Indian" rather than "Native American" that is your right, and your call I suppose.

If you wish to be called "She-Male", or "Lady-boy" or what ever I have no problem with that, just as any woman who wishes to call her self a wh@re or a B!tch or whatever, her name, her call. But the majority of transpeople are offended by those terms, so if you are attracted to transwomen, for instance, wouldn't it be wiser to use terms that don't offend the majority of us?



Marie

[transcendMental]

Does anyone else have an attraction to TV's, trangendered, ladyboys, shemales etc (I aware some of these names can offend)?

It is also noteworthy that cakehead begins his list with TV. So it may not be transpersons that he is attracted to. The relevant (currently most widely acceptable) term for that would be "cross-dressers", who, as has been explored in other forums, are significantly different from transpersons.

Of course, I'm laying my money on the likelihood that he was just trying to ignite a fire. Fortunately, where there's flame, there's also light.

[Long Duck Dong]

cakehead lol..... i feel for you dude.....

we live in a world where you may not say and do anything that may be regarded as offensive, rude, not PC, impolite etc etc etc

it doesn't matter what you do and say.... somebody out there is ready to take offense to it

now I do understand what your original question was.....and that was, who is interested in the wide range of people that range between males that dress as ladies right thru to trans people.....

but as you can see.....you need to use terms that do correctly reflect what you are trying to say.....and thats why you hardly see any threads about trans people in the forum.....

[mrplayfuluk]

is it ok to say yes to the original question now?

[Long Duck Dong]

lol go for it mrplay

I have a interest in the people, more commonly known as she males....
the people that are not tv/cd's, do not refer to themselves as trans people
and are people that are feminine in form but male in sexual identity.... and have no immediate plans to become fully female, as they find their current form to be a form which they enjoy
hence they don't identify as trans people

its not a sexual interest, I just find them very interesting people to talk with and yeah I am blessed enuf to know a couple of them....dear friends, they are

[izzfan]

The relevant (currently most widely acceptable) term for that would be "cross-dressers"

Just a minor point: what's wrong with ther term 'transvestite'? I'm a TV and I prefer to refer to myself as such rather than 'cross-dresser' which just doesn't sound as good in my opinion. Although, apparently the tern transvestite has slightly different connotations in America apparently.

Now, enough pointless PC word-games! As for the original question - I'd be a liar if I said that I didn't find some TV/TS people to be very attractive but that's not to say that I'm exclusively attracted to them, I mean if someone's attractive then you;'re probably going to be attracted to them regardless of gender.

Izzfan :flag3:

[Biboz49]

To the original question, my answer is yes I have an attraction.

[MarieDelta]

A question for all those Trans-Amourous Folks out there,

What is it that attracts you to trans people? (is it that we have a penis? or is it our breasts or is it that we are straddling the gender divide? Is it similar to the way a person prefers a redhead or a brunette(asian/ caucasian/ african)?

Do you think it is a lasting thing? What if the transperson decides they need to have the bottom surgery?

What about Transmen? Is anyone else attracted to them(I am - Most of the transguys I have met are real cuties and sweethearts too)? But I am also attracted to natal guys as well.

:)

[cakehead]

Well by no means I meant to start a political row.. or fire as some of yous reffered it as. Every culture has a different labelled word for the "third sex".

In Scotland they are most reffered to as 'trannies' and the closest we come to having a mass mediocrity of them would be when the Ladyboys of Bangkok come to Edinburgh.

Whats everyones fascination with politcal correctness??? Maybe some of you should be more accepting than to attack the person who said the names which most cultures could recognise would cause no offence.

AND SINCE!!! There is no set term for these unique people how dare you correct which words which are used world wide.

Sheeesh.

Anyhow. The one thing I have a fascination with Transpeople is that they're decieving. I love the whole switching of roles. I cant get it out my head.

[MarieDelta]

"Political Correctness" is just another way of being Polite

Marie

PS: Calling it "PC or Politically Correct" was a move by the right wing to deride a movement of being kind to people.

PPS: We third gender individuals have a right to be treated with respect just as you do. Just because some cultures would refer to you with rude names does not make it alright to refer to you as those rude names. In other words when in Rome (or America) do as the Romans do. Third Genders have existed since the dawn of human time, in all cultures. (Third Gender Wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender))

[cakehead]

I retire from this cause I seem to cause offense to everyone. Fair enough if I was being malicious, if anyone see's me that way then tell me what I am doing wrong?

I dont agree with complete political correctness, but that dont therefore mean that I am unpolite. If it's P(un)C to refer to what different cultures may refer to as the transgendered then so be it. But until there is a set term for the 3rd sex who knows who I will upset next.

The girl in my year has no offence taken to being reffered to as a shemale.

She says "I have a penis, I have boobs... in what way could that offend me??"

Furthermore she said, "to be classified as a transexxual makes me embarressed, it makes me sound deformed".

So who is willing to speak on behalf of the entire world of the transgendered people to say what IS PC and what ISNT PC?

[izzfan]

Marie, although I have to agree that political correctness certainly started out with good intentions, it has begun to become a rather oppressive force in recent times - kind of like the "newspeak" in Orwell's "Nineteen Eighty-Four".

I'm not saying that everyone should be rude to each other but when people start worrying that something they say in all innocence may offend somebody, somewhere at some point in time then that is where I begin to see it as paranoid thought control or as a way for the state to censor everyday life [this is probably more the case in the UK with our wonderful New Labour Government and their newspeak propaganda terms such as: 'smokefree', 'binge drinking','extreme pornography','carbon footprint' etc...]

Sorry to have a political rant :soapbox: but I feel very strongly about the issue of political correctness. I wouldn't see myself as left or right wing [I'm a kind of strange mixture of the two with a heavy measure of libertarianism] and I certainly don't advocate being rude to people simply because of who they are, but there is a difference between politeness and political correctness in my opinion [and I would prefer politeness any day].
-----------------------------------------------------

Now that we've got all the politics and controversy out of the way, I don;t know if I would be attracted to transmen, I guess it depends on how attractive they were [both personality and looks].With TV/CD people I guess the attraction is probably more to do with jealousy at how amazingly good some of them look and the fact that I'd never be able to look that good when 'en femme' in a million years.

Again, sorry about the politics earlier but political correctness is one of a number of issues I feel strongly about and will go on about at the slightest opportunity lol.

Izzfan :flag3:

[DiamondDog]

I'm mostly attracted to transmen but I've met a few transwomen who I was also attracted to.

[Qetesh]

Hi sorry to jump in with what might be a daft question but....

what is it about the terms ladyboy or shemale that offend? Yes this is a serious question, I'm not trying to upset anyone. It was compared to a woman refering to herself as a whore or bitch, I can see how those terms offend, whore= sleeping around A LOT and bitch=generally nasty and/or dog like...not nice. But 'lady' isnt offencive nor is 'boy' so why does it change when you put the two together? This does confuse me. They arent terms I use but I'd still be interested in how they can be compared to insults like the ones mentioned above.

Oh and for what its worth I think PC goes too far sometimes, I mean a coloured person cant be called black yet a caucasian (sp?) person can be called white! And I HATE this labour party with all their 'buzz words'!

Hope I didnt offend anyone :)
Claire x

[MarieDelta]

"We asked our 190 [kathoeys] to say whether they thought of themselves as men, women, sao praphet song ["a second kind of woman"] or kathoey. None thought of themselves as male, and only 11% saw themselves as kathoey (i.e. ‘non-male’). By contrast 45% thought of themselves as women, with another 36% as sao praphet song... Unfortunately we did not include the category phet tee sam (third sex/gender); conceivably if we had done so there may have been many respondents who would have chosen that term... Around 50% [of non-transgender Thais] see them as males with the mistaken minds, but the other half see them as either women born into the wrong body (around 15%) or as a third sex/gender (35%)."[16]




You haven't offended me, If you had I would be laying down much harsher words. I am just continuing a conversation about what are and aren't the correct terms.

Your friend doesn't want to be called transgender then , don't call her that.

I for one would be the last to force anyone into a label they find ill suits them.

The one term that everyone around the world agrees on is transgender, that covers all of us "other gendered" people. However there are those who deny even this, prefering to be called Women(or Men) with a transgendered history.

I am not trying to call you bad name , just trying to enlighten you and perhaps continue a discussion.

In some places transgender only refers to transexuals (parts of Australia) but for the most part it refers to all us differently gendered people.


I think perhaps the cisgendered do not understand why this is such a big deal? Do you think this is about changing a name to suit ourselves or trying to rename ourselves? I assure you that transgender was around long before "shemale" or "ladyboy". Do a search on "shemale" or "ladyboy" and see what comes up. Mostly pron.

Do you understand why those names irritate us(me) so? It is because they turn us into fetishistic objects rather than feeling women and men. I know that (for the most part) men don't get that, it's not something that they have been subjected to, and therefore not part of their experience. I happen to be a woman who was born male, it doesn't mean that I am any less a person than Jane Doe down the block. I have similar wants, needs and desires as she does.

Again I am not trying to attack you or any one else here I just want people to understand my position. I know of one or two transwomen on this forum/chat who do refer to themselves a "shemales" and that is their right.
It's not my job to label other people.

[TaylorMade]

Hi sorry to jump in with what might be a daft question but....

what is it about the terms ladyboy or shemale that offend? Yes this is a serious question, I'm not trying to upset anyone. It was compared to a woman refering to herself as a whore or bitch, I can see how those terms offend, whore= sleeping around A LOT and bitch=generally nasty and/or dog like...not nice. But 'lady' isnt offencive nor is 'boy' so why does it change when you put the two together? This does confuse me. They arent terms I use but I'd still be interested in how they can be compared to insults like the ones mentioned above.

Oh and for what its worth I think PC goes too far sometimes, I mean a coloured person cant be called black yet a caucasian (sp?) person can be called white! And I HATE this labour party with all their 'buzz words'!

Hope I didnt offend anyone :)
Claire x

I can't call myself black anymore? Just when I stopped using negro to describe myself... goddamit.

:p

*Taylor*

[darkeyes]

Oh and for what its worth I think PC goes too far sometimes, I mean a coloured person cant be called black yet a caucasian (sp?) person can be called white! And I HATE this labour party with all their 'buzz words'!

Hope I didnt offend anyone :)
Claire x

Interestin... me a Labour Party memba an the buzz word for blacks is well....blacks..... its callin peeps coloured wich is so fukkin condescendin!

[TaylorMade]

Interestin... me a Labour Party memba an the buzz word for blacks is well....blacks..... its callin peeps coloured wich is so fukkin codescendin!

okay... names I cannot call myself in the UK:

Black
Negro
Colored


Just needed to check with the white people. :p

*Taylor*

[Scooby]

So why was Baa Baa Black Sheep banned from some schools for being racist? This is a great example of PC gone mad. Noone knows whats Politically Correct or not anymore!

I didnt realise there was a 'buzz word' for being black.... I just knew the ones you get rammed down your throats everytime you pick up a paper or watch TV... carbon footprint...climate change...blah de blah de blah

[TaylorMade]

So why was Baa Baa Black Sheep banned from some schools for being racist? This is a great example of PC gone mad. Noone knows whats Politically Correct or not anymore!

I didnt realise there was a 'buzz word' for being black.... I just knew the ones you get rammed down your throats everytime you pick up a paper or watch TV... carbon footprint...climate change...blah de blah de blah

Damn.

I am freaking grateful to be an American after hearing that. Good lord. . .

*Taylor*

[darkeyes]

okay... names I cannot call myself:

Black
Negro
Colored


Just needed to check with the white people. :p

*Taylor*u callya sel wotya like Taylor hun.. no need 2 check wiv me, so don b quite so touchy.....point me makin is that we all coloured..white (tho thats reely the colour of me eyeballs an teeth not me skin... jus wot colour am I??? Interestin question... aint pink.. skin coloured?? cant call me that... tho it is me own skin colour.. jus wot colour r white peeps??? God life is confusin..me brain hurts now wiv all that thinkin... me gives up....) black brown yellow an all shades.....

[benjiboy]

u callya sel wotya like Taylor hun.. no need 2 check wiv me, so don b quite so touchy.....point me makin is that we all coloured..white (tho thats reely the colour of me eyeballs an teeth not me skin... jus wot colour am I??? Interestin question... aint pink.. skin coloured?? cant call me that... tho it is me own skin colour.. jus wot colour r white peeps??? God life is confusin..me brain hurts now wiv all that thinkin... me gives up....) black brown yellow an all shades.....


A name is just a name, its who u r inside that matters. I am a straight acting bi male and have met all sorts in my time, but have never been pre-judgemental on anyone. I accept people for who they are, everyone has the right to that. Lets not ponder on names, only that we are all the same and should respect each other as such!
Peter.
XX

[darkeyes]

Me agrees wivya actually Pete babes.. but its a bit of a prob wen me describes 2 me m8 sum 1 who fancies the knickers off er an am tryin 2 fix er up wiv a date.. he/ she is same height, same hair, same eyes, same weight, same sex, same ethnicity, same bits ... naaa mite agree but in sum ways it don half cos probs....:tong:

[Scooby]

LOL Taylor, you think thats bad? In schools now black boards have to be called chalk boards but white boards are still called white boards not pen boards. Wheres the sense in that? I really dont get it a colour is a colour, surely it isnt that important?!? Yes just be grateful your American, its awful here lol :2cents:

[MarieDelta]

Another Question for those of you who say that you really like transfolk.

What have you done to make it easier for us to exist?

Are you out with us, helping us to legislate/lobby for our rights?

It is very dificult to exist as a third gender in western society, imo, most people are confused or threatened by us. They have no idea what to call us or where to put us. For example: I can't travel by airline as myself I have to go in male mode until I get there and even then I may be subjected to harassment by security for carrying my own underwear. Otherwise I may have to ship my clothes.

I can have an ID card that recognizes my correct gender for state purposes, but nationwide my soc. sec. will remain as is untill I get the surgery and have a Dr. verify it.


Anyone watch "Breakfast On Pluto"?

& Yes I support GLB and T rights as well as womens rights where I am (just in case you were wondering). I have written letters and called my congress critter regarding these subjects.

[darkeyes]

LOL Taylor, you think thats bad? In schools now black boards have to be called chalk boards but white boards are still called white boards not pen boards. Wheres the sense in that? I really dont get it a colour is a colour, surely it isnt that important?!? Yes just be grateful your American, its awful here lol :2cents:
Aint awful here at all... its actually pretty gud.... sure ther r things wich get up our noses but thats betta than peeps gettin sent 2 jail or a mental hospital for shaggin or even jus fancyin ther own sex..or not bein able 2 walk down the street for fear of gettin ther heads kicked in or worse cosa wer they cum from or cosa ther skin colour or who they fancy an havin little or no recourse 2 law... not ne that mattad ne ways. An God helpya if ya had gender identification probs.. that wot this threads about an its been a bit hijacked..for which me apologises 2 Marie an the other Transgendered peeps whose thread this reely is... yad b lukky 2 c the lita day...

Colour shud b jus colour..sadly historically its the uses 2 which certain colours wer put that makes peeps so sensitive bout usin them 2 describe peeps... an so sum things r lost from our culture.. wetha these losses r gud or bad time will tell... but we havta understand that for gud or ill these things r sensitive to certain communities an therefore it is incumbent on us 2 try an at least b sensitive 2 ther concerns.

When like me yas part of the majority (white) population its easy 2 run ruff shod ova the concerns of minorities an say sod em they shud jus accept our ways, our lingo our culture an lose thers. Thats neitha bein very sensitive or welcummin 2 peeps who cum here 2 live for woteva reason.. an so we suppress an lose an real enrichment of our culture...

An actually jus 2 clear up 1 point. In sum schools, tho not all, white boards r known as marker boards... lil point...mayb unimportant... but prob more accurately descriptive than the expression white board ne way..

The UK has its probs..many of em 2... but it sure is a lot betta now than in the middle of the 20th century an earlier...the loss of a few words an nursery rhymes, new words 2 describe old things... these r a small price 2 pay if we r 2 becum a truly multicultural an civilised society...

[darkeyes]

What have you done to make it easier for us to exist?

Are you out with us, helping us to legislate/lobby for our rights?







Yes. And yes Marie.. an hav since me wos 15 years old.. an me mum an dad fore me wos born... x

[transcendMental]

I need to chime in to say that I have not been offended by what people have said here. As Marie points out, this is part of a badly needed dialog.

Many people say they "like us", but it seems they don't really know or understand us at all. It feels at times that when we try to have conversations about this, people don't want to engage in the conversation -- they are more comfortable simply complaining about PC terms rather than engaging in understanding a complex condition.

In aid of conversation, I will try to answer some questions succinctly (these answers are personal and do not apply to all TG/TS persons -- I am speaking as one MtF transsexual):

(1) Qetesh/Claire, I understand Marie's point about "shemale" originating in the porn industry. I'm less familiar with the origin of "ladyboy". I do not put those words on par with "whore" or "bitch", though. Rather, I object to their apparent denial (or at least misunderstanding) of my condition: I do not consider myself either a boy or a male. Those words make it sound as if I'm a particularly effeminate boy or male. This is not an accurate understanding of what is going on. My brain is structured as a woman's brain, complete with a desire for estrogen. None of us can help the body we're born with, but I have a growth between my legs that doesn't belong there, and I don't produce enough estrogen to keep my brain functioning the way it's supposed to. It is painful for me to be called "male" or "boy" because of the pain and confusion I've suffered all my life being called these things, when my brain was telling me otherwise. People did not recognize that I was a girl then, and by calling me "male" and "boy" now, people continue to not recognize that I am a woman. (ok, so much for succinct :eek:)

(2) Cakehead, I apologize for suspecting you of trying to start a fire. Clearly, you just didn't understand the difference between shemales and transsexuals. What you find fascinating about shemales is exactly what makes me uncomfortable with them: "they're deceiving". While shemales (and crossdressers) are deceiving people, trying to present themselves as something other than what they identify as (meaning simply that they identify as male, but present themselves as female), most transpeople are trying NOT to deceive people: when I present as female, it is because I identify as female, and want/need people to see me that way. I feel like I have worn a mask my entire life, and can't take it off. When I present as female, it feels as though the mask is finally gone. Hence conflating these groups (shemales and transsexuals) brings confusion and suspicion on people like me.

(3) Everyone who finds shemales arousing, I completely respect your right to your taste. But please don't assume when you meet someone bearing the Scarlet T symbol for their gender (please see my related thread on "the Scarlet T") that the person in question is a shemale, or that he/she finds anything remotely arousing about their condition. I for one find my condition extremely frustrating and at times near-debilitating. The thought that someone is getting off on it just feels, um, icky. The bit of me that you might find most physically attractive happens to be the bit that I'm most anxious to get rid of (well, to trade in for something more appropriate, anyway).

(4) Taylor, of course you (and everyone else) should call yourself what you prefer. In order for the rest of us to be appropriately sensitive, though, we need to know if there's anything you do or don't want US to call you. I can guess at one word you may dislike, and I won't even name the first letter of it. But there are some people of color who take offense to some of "black", "negro", or "colored", but not to others. So people are a little confused about others' preferences (because not all persons of color are alike, just like not all transsexuals are alike), but mostly, we should just be trying to respect those preferences.

Sorry to go on so long. I hope some of the above adds light.

:bipride:

[MarieDelta]

Yes. And yes Marie.. an hav since me wos 15 years old.. an me mum an dad fore me wos born... x

Thank you Dear, I know you have.

I really appreciate the work you and yours have done and thanks to you we have made great strides.

I wonder at those who say that Trans folk "turn them on" & yet have done nothing to ensure that we can exist or at least make it easier for us.

A certain chatter on this site was telling me that I should be grateful that he jerks off to trans people and lust after us otherwise "my old wrinkled trannie" butt would be left all alone.

[Skater Boy]

OK guys... here's my 1.99 cents (or pence, if you prefer):

ANYONE who ISN'T a white, middle-class, heterosexual, urban male should be called : "A Fuckin' Freak!!!".

Although feel free to use Mr. or Ms. Freak where applicable, or even just "Freak" if you're on friendly terms.

I trust this resolves the issue. :bigrin:

[Skater Boy]

A certain chatter on this site was telling me that I should be grateful that he jerks off to trans people and lust after us otherwise "my old wrinkled trannie" butt would be left all alone.

Fucken hilarious, Marie! Just like women should be grateful that men actually wanna get them into bed, otherwise they'd just be lonely old crones who crave chocolate and go shopping to relieve their frustration.

I hadn't realized we had so many psychoanalysts on this forum... ;)

[MarieDelta]

OK guys... here's my 1.99 cents (or pence, if you prefer):

ANYONE who ISN'T a white, middle-class, heterosexual, urban male should be called : "A Fuckin' Freak!!!".

Although feel free to use Mr. or Ms. Freak where applicable, or even just "Freak" if you're on friendly terms.

I trust this resolves the issue. :bigrin:

:color:
But, but... I wanted to be Miss Freak :upside:

-M;)

[Skater Boy]

:color:
But, but... I wanted to be Miss Freak :upside:

LOL, OK Marie... in compliance with your wishes, henceforth thou shalt be addressed as "Miss Freak". :)

Now, who votes that we try and get "Freak" put on the official list of Politically Correct terms, hmm??? :tongue:

[DiamondDog]

OK guys... here's my 1.99 cents (or pence, if you prefer):

ANYONE who ISN'T a white, middle-class, heterosexual, urban male should be called : "A Fuckin' Freak!!!".

You can also say the same about white upper middle class affluent urban gay men who live in a gay ghetto.

[transcendMental]

Your honor, I rest my case.

[naive]

ANYONE who ISN'T a white, middle-class, heterosexual, urban male should be called : "A Fuckin' Freak!!!".


interesting to see this come from someone who meets all the criteria except one ;)

[Skater Boy]

interesting to see this come from someone who meets all the criteria except one ;)

Well, technically speaking, I'm "mixed race", although you could be forgiven for thinking that I'm pure caucasian just by looking at me. Secondly, my current financial income puts me well and truly in the working class and below catagory. In household terms, I was raised in low quality council accommodation and have spent most of my life living in such conditions. My parents' income was below average until much later in their lives, and now that they earn more it doesn't really affect my circumstances so much because I'm "supposed" to be independant by now. Education wise, I went to fairly normal schools- certainly no prestigious acadamies that might indicate any sort of privelige. My general standard of education is little better than that of anyone else of my age in this country. As for heterosexual, well, I think that SHOULD have been the thing that gave away my lack of sincerity when making the statement... ;)

[mike9753]

I don't have any answers to any of this except two comments.

1. As I read thru the various posts, I notice that various people express themselves in different ways - some with a written regional "accent", some with a very few words, some with so many abbreviations that I cannot understand what they are trying to say, some with longer explanations, etc.

My opinion is that on this forum we express our opinions in ways that we feel will be understood to the other readers. There is nothing "right or wrong" about this. However the issue has to do with whether the posts are understandable to the majority of readers. If too short, the comment may be misunderstood, if language is too regional in nature, only a few will get the point, if the posts are too long, who reads them? And isn't this the issue with the words we are debating? Do the listeners understand what the speakers are really saying? And do the speakers of these words really know what they are referring to?

2. And we are discussing particular words that have deeper meanings to each and everyone of us. It is those meanings that are up for discussion. What I have taken from this discussion is that I have no fuckin idea what to call a person who dresses like a woman - may look very sexy and feminine (or not), but has or formally had the genitals of a man.

I do not want to offend anyone, but I also want people to realize that my intentions is to refer to a person in an accurate way. If the person presents an ambiguous personna then my reference to them will be ambiguous. Not out of disrespect, but out of confusion.

I cannot help what terms the porn industry uses nor can I fully understand all the reasons why a particular individual may accept one term but not another. There is so much confusion about this, at least from what I can see, that I intend on letting my common sense and my normally fairly sensitive nature dictate my use of terms that I think are accurate and following that be open to being corrected if need be.

Mike

[MarieDelta]

I understand your frustration Mike.

It is confusing, even moreso for those who loved us as children and as people trying to deal with this Gender Identity.

However in the abscence of "politically correct" terms, if you treat me with kindness, I will likewise treat you with kindness.

I may correct you if you use terms that I find offensive or inacurate, please don't take offense when I do. Be assured that (at least the first time around) I haven't taken offense at your comments either.

[mike9753]

Dear MarieDelta:

Yes, I think that's the essence of it - kindness and intent (without judgment of worth).

Mike

[DiamondDog]

Your honor, I rest my case.

:confused:

Who was that directed at?

Anyway if you've ever visited a gay ghetto in any major city like SF, LA, Philly, NYC, Palm springs, South Beach/parts of the keys in FL, etc. you'll see what I referenced in my last post.

[brunette]

i think the saddest thing about all this is something that Marie touched on. many "hetero" defined people find transgender porn erotic, but are afraid of appearing "gay" so they don't attempt to fight for transgender equality. in some cases, they fight against equality.

i can admit to being ill informed before joining this forum. and the stigma that transgender porn carried was often at the center of jokes. but porn is drastically different than real life, and now i can proudly say that i fight against misunderstanding.

GLB and T issues are closely linked, and i believe respecting each other's differences is a good first step to changing other's minds about us.

[Long Duck Dong]

lol in answer to a question asked earlier in the thread..... what is it about trans people that interests me ??

its not sex... or a sexually based interest.....

there is a unique nature and personality trait in trans people that I rarely find in non trans....
I am not sure if its part of the trans nature, or a natural aspect of the person themselves..... but its very alluring, calming, gentle and subtle

as for trans porn.... its like any other porn, it doesn't interest me, unless I can * feel * the emotions of desire and love between the people in the movie....and not just another fuck flick with a script and emotionless sex

[MarieDelta]

i think the saddest thing about all this is something that Marie touched on. many "hetero" defined people find transgender porn erotic, but are afraid of appearing "gay" so they don't attempt to fight for transgender equality. in some cases, they fight against equality.

i can admit to being ill informed before joining this forum. and the stigma that transgender porn carried was often at the center of jokes. but porn is drastically different than real life, and now i can proudly say that i fight against misunderstanding.

GLB and T issues are closely linked, and i believe respecting each other's differences is a good first step to changing other's minds about us.

Unfortunately, it's not just the hetero community that sometimes refuses to fight for the transgender rights, it's also the GLB communities that sometimes stigmatize and even refuse to acknowledge us.

:cool:

[darkeyes]

Unfortunately, it's not just the hetero community that sometimes refuses to fight for the transgender rights, it's also the GLB communities that sometimes stigmatize and even refuse to acknowledge us.

:cool:

Sadly so Marie.. jus as Gays often screw down on Bis they can b even more down on u.... an sum of us aint no betta... they often jus don realise we all in same boat.... TF they ain all like that but jeez far 2 many r bigotted arsholes 2 fulla ther own importance!!

[MarieDelta]

Sadly so Marie.. jus as Gays often screw down on Bis they can b even more down on u.... an sum of us aint no betta... they often jus don realise we all in same boat.... TF they ain all like that but jeez far 2 many r bigotted arsholes 2 fulla ther own importance!!

Unfortunately I have met people on both sides who think they're "better than" the other people.

I met (on another forum, not this one) a "woman with a trangender history" who told me and other transpeople of the forum that she had "Harry Benjamin's Syndrome" and therefore didn't want to associate with gays, lesbians and bisexuals (or even crossdressers, genderqueers, transvestites).

I told her not to let the door hit her in the ass on the way out. Because in the end, it comes down to as my Grandad said "If we don't hang together, we'll hang seperately."

I guess that sums up my feelings on the whole thing. It's damn shame that people look down on others, but it seems to be part of the human condition too. We seperate up into tribes at the slightest hint of difference.

[transcendMental]

Your honor, I rest my case.


:confused:

Who was that directed at?



DD, let me extract a quote from my above post:

"It feels at times that when we try to have conversations about this, people don't want to engage in the conversation -- they are more comfortable simply complaining about PC terms rather than engaging in understanding a complex condition."

I followed this with my best attempt to lay out some genuine meat for conversation, including some rather personal observations.

Granted my post was long, but not a person responded to a single point in it: instead the conversation carried on with jokes and complaints about PC language. This is not the first time this has happened.

So I rest my case: People really don't seem to want to talk or think about this issue: they just want it to go away. Most of you can make it go away by dismissing it/us. But we can't.

Marie wants rights, she wants people to advocate for us. I want rights too, but right now I'd settle for people simply attempting to understand us.

tm

[brunette]

I followed this with my best attempt to lay out some genuine meat for conversation, including some rather personal observations.

Granted my post was long, but not a person responded to a single point in it: instead the conversation carried on with jokes and complaints about PC language. This is not the first time this has happened.

So I rest my case: People really don't seem to want to talk or think about this issue: they just want it to go away. Most of you can make it go away by dismissing it/us. But we can't.

Marie wants rights, she wants people to advocate for us. I want rights too, but right now I'd settle for people simply attempting to understand us.

tm

i'm sorry, i didn't quote you, but i did read your post and was impressed with the points you made. i thought that you made very concise and accurate observations, and i had nothing further to add except what i said.

which is that transgendered people are considered a fetish in the porn industry and are often the center of jokes. the people who find your situation arousing are often the people who work the hardest to reduce those of us with "alternative lifestyles" to jokes or freaks.

i should also point out that i understand your situation like i understand a parent dying because my hermit crab died. i am not transgendered, but i respect your feelings and your particular method of dealing with it. and i will fight for your ability to choose.

[Skater Boy]

Your honor, I rest my case.



DD, let me extract a quote from my above post:

"It feels at times that when we try to have conversations about this, people don't want to engage in the conversation -- they are more comfortable simply complaining about PC terms rather than engaging in understanding a complex condition."

I followed this with my best attempt to lay out some genuine meat for conversation, including some rather personal observations.

Granted my post was long, but not a person responded to a single point in it: instead the conversation carried on with jokes and complaints about PC language. This is not the first time this has happened.

So I rest my case: People really don't seem to want to talk or think about this issue: they just want it to go away. Most of you can make it go away by dismissing it/us. But we can't.

Marie wants rights, she wants people to advocate for us. I want rights too, but right now I'd settle for people simply attempting to understand us.

tm

tm, if you were referring to MY humor, then please forgive me. It may have been facetious of me, but I meant no disrespect.

My views on this subject are fairly clear, and I believe I have probably stated them before.

[MarieDelta]

Marie wants rights, she wants people to advocate for us. I want rights too, but right now I'd settle for people simply attempting to understand us.

tm

I don't want people to advocate for us, but with us.

Mind you these are the same people who are constantly telling how sexy we are and how much they want us.

I think it would be a step in the right direction.

[transcendMental]

brunette, thanks for your clarification and your support. If you have questions, please ask. And that offer/request extends to all who have posted on this thread. As Big Bird once observed "asking questions is a great way of finding things out." :tong:

Skater, I didn't take your humor as directed at me at all. From what I've seen, I consider you an ally! Perhaps your joke was (from my perspective) just ill-timed.

Marie, I don't care if it's the people who "love us", the people who are freaked out by us, or the people who outright hate us -- if they'd try to understand what's really going on, I'd appreciate it. Understanding is a vital first step to support: if society doesn't understand who/what we are, we'll never have rights.

[MarieDelta]

TM - The problem with people trying to "understand" us is that sometimes we barely understand ourselves. Acceptance is nice, understanding is nice. But to have rights that is something that can be used.

Wether or not they understand us/accept us. Hell, I don't think the people who are our closest allies really understand us.

I know that i am on a wild goose chase trying to get so-called straight me to support us. They have way to much invested in their heterosexual priveledge.

These are the same men (like for instance Eddie Murphy-arrested for picking up a trans hooker) who would tell their friends anything to be considered straight.

They don't want to know us in the daylight. They don't want to see us outside the bedroom. :cool:

[darkeyes]

I do not claim to understand Marie, merely that I try. Like most bisexual and gay people I have had my own struggle to assert who I am, and truly discover myself. Largely, though not entirely, I have succeeded. I do not believe any of us truly succeed entirely, but memory and knowledge of my own personal struggle of self discovery gives me an inkling of your life's dilemma.

The rights of people such as yourself should enshrined and embossed in our hearts and minds. Understanding and acceptance should be without question. That you should be able to walk free and breathe the air, which is everyones right, in the light of day and without fear is something every bisexual should fight for. That you should be more than an object of temporary desire within the bedroom is an appalling indictment of our own and the gay communities. To be used and cast aside as a piece of dirt, and later denied. Yes, the straight community also, but we all know that of them and we can at present expect little more. And yet, what more can we expect, since so many of us treat our own, and the men and women of the gay and straight communities as just that. The treatment of people such as yourself is so much worse however, in that you are considered a mere trifle and a curiosity by so many of us, men in especial, and therefore not real, or to be accepted fully as a part of our world.

I would be proud to walk with you in the light of day, and with any who are like you, knowing how much you hurt inside, of your struggle for acceptance not merely as transgendered or transexual people, but as human beings with the right to live the life they have chosen or nature has chosen them for, with all the respect we can muster.

[transcendMental]

I do not claim to understand Marie, merely that I try.


Thank you, darkeyes! Marie, this is all I ask. When people change the subject or make jokes (or stay silent), they are not trying to understand, they are trying not to confront a difficult subject.

My claim is that before we can hope for rights, we need people to be willing to even think about us at all (as more than objects of desire, certainly).

Of course, there is still the difficult other issue: darkeyes also mentions that she feels that we should have the right to walk free as transpeople. I do not identify as a transperson, but as a woman. Is it too much to expect to be able to walk free in that way someday?

(Marie and I seem to differ significantly in our identification as a 3rd gender -- I do NOT feel like a 3rd gender, and am perfectly comfortable with the two genders we have, especially imperfectly defined as they are. I do, however, recognize and respect that many transpersons DO identify with the 3rd/other gender notion.)

[darkeyes]

Thank you, darkeyes! Marie, this is all I ask. When people change the subject or make jokes (or stay silent), they are not trying to understand, they are trying not to confront a difficult subject.

My claim is that before we can hope for rights, we need people to be willing to even think about us at all (as more than objects of desire, certainly).

Of course, there is still the difficult other issue: darkeyes also mentions that she feels that we should have the right to walk free as transpeople. I do not identify as a transperson, but as a woman. Is it too much to expect to be able to walk free in that way someday?

(Marie and I seem to differ significantly in our identification as a 3rd gender -- I do NOT feel like a 3rd gender, and am perfectly comfortable with the two genders we have, especially imperfectly defined as they are. I do, however, recognize and respect that many transpersons DO identify with the 3rd/other gender notion.)

Actually hun, I thought you would have taken as read that I support your right to be considered a woman inasmuch as you have the right to be considered as that which you feel yourself to be. That I did not explicitly say so I apologise, but I didnt consider it necessary. Promise I will think a little more clearly next time.:)

[MarieDelta]

Thank you, darkeyes! Marie, this is all I ask. When people change the subject or make jokes (or stay silent), they are not trying to understand, they are trying not to confront a difficult subject.

My claim is that before we can hope for rights, we need people to be willing to even think about us at all (as more than objects of desire, certainly).

Of course, there is still the difficult other issue: darkeyes also mentions that she feels that we should have the right to walk free as transpeople. I do not identify as a transperson, but as a woman. Is it too much to expect to be able to walk free in that way someday?

(Marie and I seem to differ significantly in our identification as a 3rd gender -- I do NOT feel like a 3rd gender, and am perfectly comfortable with the two genders we have, especially imperfectly defined as they are. I do, however, recognize and respect that many transpersons DO identify with the 3rd/other gender notion.)



Here's the thing I don't identify as a "third" gender. But it is what I am. Because I was born a man who'd rather be a woman. I know that no matter what I do my chromosomes will always be xy. I don't have any choice in that.

It's not in my nature to avoid looking at those facts.

I'd rather take advantage of the history and be proud of who I am than shoving it back into the closet once I transistion.

I was a boy at one time, I was the son that my parents created. I am now in the process of becoming a woman. Maybe at some point my mind will change about all this and I will see things as you do, but for now this is how I see things.

[MarieDelta]

...I would be proud to walk with you in the light of day, and with any who are like you, knowing how much you hurt inside, of your struggle for acceptance not merely as transgendered or transexual people, but as human beings with the right to live the life they have chosen or nature has chosen them for, with all the respect we can muster.

You don't know how much this means to me.

I would be proud, as well.

Thank you, Fran.

[open2both]

Oh HELL yeah!
My FAAAAAAAVORITE!
Femininity with man meat!
C'mon Santa, put a few under my Christmas tree!:devil:

[Skater Boy]

Oh HELL yeah!
My FAAAAAAAVORITE!
Femininity with man meat!
C'mon Santa, put a few under my Christmas tree!:devil:

LOL, d'ya think he read any of the posts in this thread before jumping in with his :2cents:?

[darkeyes]

Oh HELL yeah!
My FAAAAAAAVORITE!
Femininity with man meat!
C'mon Santa, put a few under my Christmas tree!:devil:
Wotta wankin arsehole!!! Hope e calls by an stix ya xmas tree up ya arse an don botha 2 remove the deccies an lites!!!!

[MarieDelta]

LOL, d'ya think he read any of the posts in this thread before jumping in with his ?


I think they thought it was something else. I think.

What do you think they thought?


:tongue:;)

[MarieDelta]

Wotta wankin arsehole!!! Hope e calls by an stix ya xmas tree up ya arse an don botha 2 remove the deccies an lites!!!!


One could only hope. But alas, this too would probably fulfill at least *one* of their desires.
:eek:

[csrakate]

Oh HELL yeah!
My FAAAAAAAVORITE!
Femininity with man meat!
C'mon Santa, put a few under my Christmas tree!:devil:
I think this might be a classic example of how NOT to refer to these individuals!!

[darkeyes]

One could only hope. But alas, this too would probably fulfill at least *one* of their desires.
:eek:

Wud u like 100000 priks up ya arse at same time Marie??? Complete wiv decor an leccie power?? An wot fun pullin it out gain an tearin im 2 shreds an pullin im inside out.... wile still alive an concious of course... God me dus hav sum sadistic tendencies for such an angel!:bigrin:

[BreeIsMe]

Just to weight in on this deal.

I agree with Marie...

In general people are not (and should not) be labeled by the sexual organs they happen to have at the time. "Shemales" describes people who have characteristics of both male and female sexual organs. HOWEVER, transgendered individuals do not (in general) see themselves as a "combo" but rather as a woman (ie., fully female) trapped in a physical body that doesn't match their emotional body perception. Therefore, the dual nature of their existence is actually quite painful. I guess you can look at it like: our "Fantasy" would be to wake up one morning and be ENTIRELY female and be accepted for being that. Thus, the "male" part of the "shemale" is something we would just as soon forget and discard.....
I hope this helps a little ..........


Bree



You haven't offended me, If you had I would be laying down much harsher words. I am just continuing a conversation about what are and aren't the correct terms.

Your friend doesn't want to be called transgender then , don't call her that.

I for one would be the last to force anyone into a label they find ill suits them.

The one term that everyone around the world agrees on is transgender, that covers all of us "other gendered" people. However there are those who deny even this, prefering to be called Women(or Men) with a transgendered history.

I am not trying to call you bad name , just trying to enlighten you and perhaps continue a discussion.

In some places transgender only refers to transexuals (parts of Australia) but for the most part it refers to all us differently gendered people.


I think perhaps the cisgendered do not understand why this is such a big deal? Do you think this is about changing a name to suit ourselves or trying to rename ourselves? I assure you that transgender was around long before "shemale" or "ladyboy". Do a search on "shemale" or "ladyboy" and see what comes up. Mostly pron.

Do you understand why those names irritate us(me) so? It is because they turn us into fetishistic objects rather than feeling women and men. I know that (for the most part) men don't get that, it's not something that they have been subjected to, and therefore not part of their experience. I happen to be a woman who was born male, it doesn't mean that I am any less a person than Jane Doe down the block. I have similar wants, needs and desires as she does.

Again I am not trying to attack you or any one else here I just want people to understand my position. I know of one or two transwomen on this forum/chat who do refer to themselves a "shemales" and that is their right.
It's not my job to label other people.

[raistkit]

to all the trans people on this site i'de be more than happy to walk down the street with you. i've been walking, talking, and dressing as i please for a long time now. granted it's easier for me as a female to do this. do i get some people looking at me as though i have a third head, yes i do. i just look them straight in the eye and say hello. i can't change who and what i am, nor do i have any intentions of doing so.
yes it is irritating to be viewed as a freak, or some kind of carnival side show. it's a hard thing to do, but we have to go about our daily lives as who and what we are openly. remember there is strength in numbers.
as far as the original question is concerned, it's who you are that attracts me and not your genitals.

kit

[transcendMental]

Here's the thing I don't identify as a "third" gender. But it is what I am. Because I was born a man who'd rather be a woman. I know that no matter what I do my chromosomes will always be xy. I don't have any choice in that.

It's not in my nature to avoid looking at those facts.

I'd rather take advantage of the history and be proud of who I am than shoving it back into the closet once I transistion.

I was a boy at one time, I was the son that my parents created. I am now in the process of becoming a woman. Maybe at some point my mind will change about all this and I will see things as you do, but for now this is how I see things.

But Marie, your statement sounds like you conflate sex with gender. You are not a 3rd gender. Your sex is male, your gender is female. So you're changing your sex to match your gender (and chromosomes are all but irrelevant as there are plenty of XYs out there with natural vaginas and plenty of XXs with natural penises -- biology just isn't that perfect). What basic facts am I avoiding looking at?

This is not about denying one's past (though some choose to). It is about acknowledging who you REALLY are.

(Thanks to all for their support, by the way! It really does mean a tremendous amount! :))

[MarieDelta]

Well lets look at it this way then:

I was born and raised and socializied as a male(albeit with some discomfort on my part.) I cannot change that, I won't deny that part of myself either.

It's not that I'm tellng you that you are denying a fact or refusing to look at something. It's more that I am who/what I am. Right now, I can't & won't try to claim the label "woman". I don't feel justified in making that claim & under hard scrutiny I know that it won't stand. Would I rather be a woman, yes of course, but it just doesn't work that way for me. If I could hit a switch right now and become totally female, I would without a doubt. But the reality is that I am not female , was not raised female and can only approximate being a female to the best of my ability.

Again I'm not trying to say that you , or anyone, else is doing it wrong. I wouldn't dream of telling anyone else how they should live. I can only represent myself in this.

One more thing I want to say too, I really appreciate the opportunity to discuss these topics here. The support that you all have shown in this forum and in the chat rooms is nothing short of astonishing to me.

Thank you once again.

[Doggie_Wood]

Please watch how you phrase things cakehead.

Please keep in mind that you must always be totally politically correct...... You must never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever say anything that anyone would even remotely find offensive. Being un-aware that it is offensive is no excuse. You should have, at the very least, some intuitive knowledge as to what might be offensive to some one.

And if you persist in using terminology that someone might find offensive, the "Political Correctness" police shall show up at your house and force you to participate in "Sensitivity Training".

And if that does not solve the problem, then they may be very well be justified in extracting your tongue.

Thank you for your understanding and co-operation and have a nice day.

:)

Me thinks Adam is under-cover trans-police.

[Doggie_Wood]

okay... names I cannot call myself in the UK:

Black
Negro
Colored


Just needed to check with the white people. :p

*Taylor*

Taylor, honey - you can call yourself anything you want - you have the right to do so. What or how one refers to oneself is (at least should be) non-offensive to to anybody else.

The two words "black" and "negro" are actually the same words. Negro (pron. "nay - grow") is the color black pronounced in spanish.

But Taylor hon, you're my caramel sundae to satisfy my sweet tooth. :shades:

[balto38]

is it ok to say yes to the original question now?

in sticking to the question and keeping it short, my answer is yes too.

[BreeIsMe]

obviously, this is a very "hetero"geneous topic and no two people are alike. I can particularly identify with what Marie is saying but I can also appreciate the other view points. The truth is what is true for each person. In an ideal world we would all be able to change ourselves in an instant to what we really are and want to be. However, in the real world we will always be somewhat less than ideal. The "acceptable" way to be will depend on the individual in question. I would like to thank everyone for the discussion as this type of open forum helps all understand each other and that understanding will help the world become a better place.

Bree

[dickhand]

WOW ! I am almost afraid to answer the original question here . I have to say the first time I was ever exposed to this idea was in a Hustler lay out in the early 80's . It was of a roman legionair getting it on with a couple of women . Later in the photo layout you see one of the " ladies " has a cock . I was hooked . This vision of a lovely woman with a nice dick seemed to me would be the perfect mate for me . The one I could be totally monogamous with . If that was " her " choice . If her ultimate goal is to have " the " operation , I guess that would be the end of my fantasy . I hope I have not offended anyone one way or the other . I would love to meet one and explore the possiblities though .

[TaylorMade]

Oh HELL yeah!
My FAAAAAAAVORITE!
Femininity with man meat!
C'mon Santa, put a few under my Christmas tree!:devil:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1220/1111477093_bf7f96eab6.jpg

*Taylor*

[diB4u]

To answer the original question many posts back, yes I am attracted to cross dressers and transvestites as well. Although being a ‘drag queen’ is different from being a cross dresser. A drag queen- for use of a better word is someone that is paid to dress up in women’s’ clothing, regardless of their own sexuality or gender. Women who dress up for performance in overtly masculine clothing can also be deemed erotic well at least for me.

I am a larger woman, but people call me ‘obese’ a term which I don’t like but which is widely and professionally used.

[MarieDelta]

To answer the original question many posts back, yes I am attracted to cross dressers and transvestites as well. Although being a ‘drag queen’ is different from being a cross dresser. A drag queen- for use of a better word is someone that is paid to dress up in women’s’ clothing, regardless of their own sexuality or gender. Women who dress up for performance in overtly masculine clothing can also be deemed erotic well at least for me.

I am a larger woman, but people call me ‘obese’ a term which I don’t like but which is widely and professionally used.

A Crossdresser is someone who dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex, regardless of the reasons behind it(Pay, comfort, sex ad infinitum).

A transvestite is also a crossdresser, depending on where you are they may be seen as only the more "serious" crossdressers or the fetishistic crossdressers.

A Drag queen is a male who pretends to be a woman on stage(usually gay, but not always.)

Women who pretend to be men for performance sake are called Drag Kings.

Transexuals can and have come from all of these groups.

[Azrael]

LOL, d'ya think he read any of the posts in this thread before jumping in with his :2cents:?

I highly doubt it :tong:

[diB4u]

A Crossdresser is someone who dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex, regardless of the reasons behind it(Pay, comfort, sext an infinitum).

A transvestite is also a crossdresser, depending on where you are they may be seen as only the more "serious" crossdresseers or the fetishistic crossdressers.

A Drag queen is a male who pretends to be a woman on stage(usually gay, but not always.)

Women who pretend to be men for performance sake are called Drag Kings.

Transexuals can and have come from all of these groups.



Yes and I’ve found people that fit all of those categories charismatic and I’ve been attracted towards at least one of each group before.Thanks for clearing that up. Very prompt reply.

[MarieDelta]

A Crossdresser is someone who dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex, regardless of the reasons behind it(Pay, comfort, sext an infinitum).

A transvestite is also a crossdresser, depending on where you are they may be seen as only the more "serious" crossdresseers or the fetishistic crossdressers.

A Drag queen is a male who pretends to be a woman on stage(usually gay, but not always.)

Women who pretend to be men for performance sake are called Drag Kings.

Transexuals can and have come from all of these groups.


Before I forget - a Cisgender is someone who is not transgender.


A Genderqueer is someone who transgresses gender in a way that challenges the definitions of Male and female (Genderf*ck). Wearing a dress with a beard and mustache or having obvious female breasts while also having a short haircut and facial hair are examples.

[transcendMental]

A Crossdresser is someone who dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex, regardless of the reasons behind it(Pay, comfort, sex ad infinitum).

A transvestite is also a crossdresser, depending on where you are they may be seen as only the more "serious" crossdressers or the fetishistic crossdressers.

A Drag queen is a male who pretends to be a woman on stage(usually gay, but not always.)

Women who pretend to be men for performance sake are called Drag Kings.

Transexuals can and have come from all of these groups.

PLEASE note, though, that transsexuals can also belong to (or come from) NONE of these groups. I for one have never belonged to any of these categories.

[darkeyes]

Coffs... clears throat an puts on poshest voice 2 try an sound brite an brainy..

I have no difficulty with people crossdressing.. Thats my starting point. People have the right to dress as they please and go where they please, dressed as they please, and should do so without any legal or personal redress from any authority or any individual or individuals. Naked is another thing, but Im not sure walking about in the nude can be classed as cross dressing.. and I am unconvinced that there is such a thing as cross undressing...

However, short of the caricature of the professional drag artist, or for dramatic or other professional purposes I do have personal difficuties with individuals who cross dress for other reasons. Not in principle let me add here.. I have said what I think, and will say no more on that. My difficulty stems from people overdressing, and becoming caricatures of that which they are attempting to mimic or become. In the end it is of course a matter of personal choice, and that is for people to decide for themselves. I hate it when people dress and make themselves look stupid, for in many cases that is exactly what cross dressers do. Of course many men and women dress badly also, and I hate seeing that every bit as much, but to some extent there are social, biological and economic reasons for this. Other than the biological these reasons do not exist to the same extent for those who cross dress.

Of course we should dress for comfort, but I for one am not comfortable unless I am dressed just right.

I am the first to admit that I suffer from a certain amount of vanity. I dress to look good as well as feel comfortable, and also to look as sexy and attractive as I am able. My partner gives me stick for my vanity, and I accept that as part of who and what I am. That I spend far too much on my personal appearnce is probably true, but to me, that is a price worth paying to look smart and to look good. I take time to preen myself, and think a great deal about what I look like will look like before a stitch goes on my body. I consider everything from what will be seen, to what will not. From make up to perfumiery, jewellery to shoes. It is a whole package and tim must be taken to think and produce the end result.

Many people do none or not all of of these things, and I am not criticising them for that. I simply point out that it is better to look the part than not, especially in matters of sexual attraction. I know that in many cases cross dressing is not about sexual attraction, but those who cross dress, and this includes women, but more especially men, simply do not even come close when it comes to looking the part. They do not consider the whole package. They like the look of something so its bought and worn without giving adequate thought to how it will look when worn. They too often dress clumsily, and without style. They forget body shape, size of feet, ven size of head and a myriad of other things which should be taken account of when dressing. This is not their fault entirely. We are not raised and taught how to dress as members of the opposite sex. What is the fault of too many cross dressers, is their insistence on not learning, or taking advice from those who do know... the opposite sex, who after all do dress in the manner which is expected of them. There is little worse than looking at a 20 stone builder, dressed in a mini skirt,a tight blouse, bulging muscles (or worse fat!!), an unmovable wig, the skimpiest of slingbacks, and with a two inch thick layer of make up, minging to high heaven with overich perfume. The hair is always important, and I understand sometimes why people spray it so much that it never moves. To me however this is anathema.. the natural flow of hair is one of the beauties of women especially, and should as often as possible always be allowed to look natural. This can be a problem for folically challenged cross dressers, I understand that, but with a little thought and this can also be overcome.

Whoever we are, we should dress to look good, whether it be casual or anything else. At least as good as our resources allow. We should not do ourselves up as dead mutton dressed as lamb, and stink accordingly. People should consider the occasion, the outfit, the hair, the eyes, overall look. For those who are larger, it is often better to wear a slightly larger size than that which is a perfect fit, because it doesnt make them look like a pint squeezed into a half pint pot. Height and shape, weight should always be considered before even putting on a single item. Often in our minds eye we see ourselves looking delicious and then see the item when on, and off it has to come because it simply isnt right. (even I am not immune to this sad sate of affairs). Shoes are very important for the wrong shoes can and often do spoil a whole look. And tree trunks do not go with thigh hi boots and skirts 10" or 12"" above the knee. Stockings must be just right, and whether patterned or plain is a matter of personal choice but must look right with the whole package.. just like everything else.

Make up is always important, and getting it right also can make a whole look. A delicate and light touch is better than a two inch thick layer of foundation and eyes should never be to heavily made up whatever the occasion. We are dolling up a face not throwing a clay pot!!! The right lipstick to go with the eyes and outfit is important. Do we gloss the lips or no? Do we need any lippie of any kind? Pastel or more bold colours should be considered in teh context of occasion and dress. Perfume is of immense importance. As with make up, perfume or cologne should be used sparingly, and never sprayed so much as to kill the whole effect.. a hint rather than a hit you in the face pong! Some perfumes should never be worn, especially those with a more pungent aroma. I think everyone knows what I mean here and who...

Jewellery.. Gold? Silver? Gems... the wrong jewellery can ruin a look just as the wrong hair style or wrong make up can. I never wear clumsy jewellery, and never too much. Hands sould never be packed with rings in every finger, as I have often seen of cross dressed men... its jewellery and not a bloody knuckleduster! A locket or pendant? A cross? Round the neck..never ever pearls! Gemstones possibly, but never too many. And the gemstones to be worn must compliment the look just as much as every other part of it must do.

I know I am vain and certainly spoiled. Maybe even a little cheeky trying to tell you not how to dress exactly but what to consider. Beauty is after all in the eye etc. But even allowing for that being the case however, there is no excuse for overdressing, no excuse for bad dressing.. there is no excuse for not making the best of oneself. Dressing is a work of art and must never be rushed. It is who we are, and who we wish the world to see.

[CuddlyKate]

And to think there exist in this world those who wonder why I get so exasperated sometimes.:)

[MarieDelta]

Coffs... clears throat an puts on poshest voice 2 try an sound brite an brainy..

I have no difficulty with people crossdressing.. Thats my starting point. People have the right to dress as they please and go where they please, dressed as they please, and should do so without any legal or personal redress from any authority or any individual or individuals. Naked is another thing, but Im not sure walking about in the nude can be classed as cross dressing.. and I am unconvinced that there is such a thing as cross undressing...

However, short of the caricature of the professional drag artist, or for dramatic or other professional purposes I do have personal difficuties with individuals who cross dress for other reasons. Not in principle let me add here.. I have said what I think, and will say no more on that. My difficulty stems from people overdressing, and becoming caricatures of that which they are attempting to mimic or become. In the end it is of course a matter of personal choice, and that is for people to decide for themselves. I hate it when people dress and make themselves look stupid, for in many cases that is exactly what cross dressers do. Of course many men and women dress badly also, and I hate seeing that every bit as much, but to some extent there are social, biological and economic reasons for this. Other than the biological these reasons do not exist to the same extent for those who cross dress.

Of course we should dress for comfort, but I for one am not comfortable unless I am dressed just right.

I am the first to admit that I suffer from a certain amount of vanity. I dress to look good as well as feel comfortable, and also to look as sexy and attractive as I am able. My partner gives me stick for my vanity, and I accept that as part of who and what I am. That I spend far too much on my personal appearnce is probably true, but to me, that is a price worth paying to look smart and to look good. I take time to preen myself, and think a great deal about what I look like will look like before a stitch goes on my body. I consider everything from what will be seen, to what will not. From make up to perfumiery, jewellery to shoes. It is a whole package and tim must be taken to think and produce the end result.

Many people do none or not all of of these things, and I am not criticising them for that. I simply point out that it is better to look the part than not, especially in matters of sexual attraction. I know that in many cases cross dressing is not about sexual attraction, but those who cross dress, and this includes women, but more especially men, simply do not even come close when it comes to looking the part. They do not consider the whole package. They like the look of something so its bought and worn without giving adequate thought to how it will look when worn. They too often dress clumsily, and without style. They forget body shape, size of feet, ven size of head and a myriad of other things which should be taken account of when dressing. This is not their fault entirely. We are not raised and taught how to dress as members of the opposite sex. What is the fault of too many cross dressers, is their insistence on not learning, or taking advice from those who do know... the opposite sex, who after all do dress in the manner which is expected of them. There is little worse than looking at a 20 stone builder, dressed in a mini skirt,a tight blouse, bulging muscles (or worse fat!!), an unmovable wig, the skimpiest of slingbacks, and with a two inch thick layer of make up, minging to high heaven with overich perfume. The hair is always important, and I understand sometimes why people spray it so much that it never moves. To me however this is anathema.. the natural flow of hair is one of the beauties of women especially, and should as often as possible always be allowed to look natural. This can be a problem for folically challenged cross dressers, I understand that, but with a little thought and this can also be overcome.

Whoever we are, we should dress to look good, whether it be casual or anything else. At least as good as our resources allow. We should not do ourselves up as dead mutton dressed as lamb, and stink accordingly. People should consider the occasion, the outfit, the hair, the eyes, overall look. For those who are larger, it is often better to wear a slightly larger size than that which is a perfect fit, because it doesnt make them look like a pint squeezed into a half pint pot. Height and shape, weight should always be considered before even putting on a single item. Often in our minds eye we see ourselves looking delicious and then see the item when on, and off it has to come because it simply isnt right. (even I am not immune to this sad sate of affairs). Shoes are very important for the wrong shoes can and often do spoil a whole look. And tree trunks do not go with thigh hi boots and skirts 10" or 12"" above the knee. Stockings must be just right, and whether patterned or plain is a matter of personal choice but must look right with the whole package.. just like everything else.

Make up is always important, and getting it right also can make a whole look. A delicate and light touch is better than a two inch thick layer of foundation and eyes should never be to heavily made up whatever the occasion. We are dolling up a face not throwing a clay pot!!! The right lipstick to go with the eyes and outfit is important. Do we gloss the lips or no? Do we need any lippie of any kind? Pastel or more bold colours should be considered in teh context of occasion and dress. Perfume is of immense importance. As with make up, perfume or cologne should be used sparingly, and never sprayed so much as to kill the whole effect.. a hint rather than a hit you in the face pong! Some perfumes should never be worn, especially those with a more pungent aroma. I think everyone knows what I mean here and who...

Jewellery.. Gold? Silver? Gems... the wrong jewellery can ruin a look just as the wrong hair style or wrong make up can. I never wear clumsy jewellery, and never too much. Hands sould never be packed with rings in every finger, as I have often seen of cross dressed men... its jewellery and not a bloody knuckleduster! A locket or pendant? A cross? Round the neck..never ever pearls! Gemstones possibly, but never too many. And the gemstones to be worn must compliment the look just as much as every other part of it must do.

I know I am vain and certainly spoiled. Maybe even a little cheeky trying to tell you not how to dress exactly but what to consider. Beauty is after all in the eye etc. But even allowing for that being the case however, there is no excuse for overdressing, no excuse for bad dressing.. there is no excuse for not making the best of oneself. Dressing is a work of art and must never be rushed. It is who we are, and who we wish the world to see.

Let me say first that I do agree with you on most, if not all, of your points.

In the defense of crossdressers however. Most of them are people trying for whatever reason to express something in themselves that they very seldom get the chance to, have no experience in doing and are seldom seen in public. With time and experience many of them learn how to blend with society as they should.

I have seen all of the above frasion gaffs present in women as well as crossdressers though, so I know that we aren't the only ones who make mistakes.

As far as make-up goes there are factors that crossdressers have to consider that you would never have to. A dark black 5 o'clock shadow... & yes when people are first going out they tend to really plaster on the make-up, through inexperience and enthusiasm. Again here time (and experience) tend to mellow the presentation.


Regarding accepting advice from natal women, most crossdressers I know would have been overjoyed to have that advice, when available. They are extremely self conscious and do not wish to make fools of themselves anymore than you would want to.

[darkeyes]

Let me say first that I do agree with you on most, if not all, of your points.

In the defense of crossdressers however. Most of them are people trying for whatever reason to express something in themselves that they very seldom get the chance to, have no experience in doing and are seldom seen in public. With time and experience many of them learn how to blend with society as they should.

I have seen all of the above frasion gaffs present in women as well as crossdressers though, so I know that we aren't the only ones who make mistakes.

As far as make-up goes there are factors that crossdressers have to consider that you would never have to. A dark black 5 o'clock shadow... & yes when people are first going out they tend to really plaster on the make-up, through inexperience and enthusiasm. Again here time (and experience) tend to mellow the presentation.


Regarding accepting advice from natal women, most crossdressers I know would have been overjoyed to have that advice, when available. They are extremely self conscious and do not wish to make fools of themselves anymore than you would want to.
Must admit to not havin thought of the 5 o clock shadow bit. Why? Dont ask me... I only said I was trying to sound intelligent.. but seriously do see this point, and know that very often it is the worse for older men. Often late teens and early 20s can get away with it since they have not yet developed full beard growth, and the hair is softer and not quite so obvious..

Regarding the gaffs many women make in their mode of dress.. I also agree with you there, and think I did mention it though possibly not with the prominence I should. But my aim was advice for cross dressing not for women who should know better.

Many cross dressers do learn, but many get stuck in the rut of bad taste. Yes Marie, as do many women, and they should be thinking about my advice also.. As time marches on, from the time we first experiment wearing mums clothes and shoes, and ruining her make up, wasting her smelly stuff through puberty and adolescence into adulthood and beyond, that early experimentation should have evolved into something much better, and very often, even usually, does. Sadly, and women can be dreadful for this, once the "permanent" prey has been landed, all too often they fall sadly and badly into disrepair. Later attempts to recover lost beauty, or even just lost youth in the case of women certainly, often results in a sad parody of the original.

I know many cross dressing men, and women for that matter to some degree, are unable to get the advice they so badly require and so make many of the mistakes you outline. That is a cultural thing that will unfortunately be with us for some time to come. Luckily some have the luxury of sisters, or female friends who are sufficiently understanding to advise and help.. not all sadly and thats another condemnation of the world in which we live.

Neither this or my original post are intended to offend and I really hope no one does take offence. They are merely sincere attempts at trying to advise people of things to consider when thinking about what to wear and the look they hope to achieve. It is by no means an exhaustive list, but I hope is sufficient to be getting on with.

Love and luck to everyone and happy classy dressing to all.

And if I ever fall victim to a bout of bad taste.. I expect to be executed on the spot.. do not include me gob in this..or me morals... them ya luffs or leaves!!!

[MarieDelta]

Must admit to not havin thought of the 5 o clock shadow bit. Why? Dont ask me... I only said I was trying to sound intelligent.. but seriously do see this point, and know that very often it is the worse for older men. Often late teens and early 20s can get away with it since they have not yet developed full beard growth, and the hair is softer and not quite so obvious..

Regarding the gaffs many women make in their mode of dress.. I also agree with you there, and think I did mention it though possibly not with the prominence I should. But my aim was advice for cross dressing not for women who should know better.

Many cross dressers do learn, but many get stuck in the rut of bad taste. Yes Marie, as do many women, and they should be thinking about my advice also.. As time marches on, from the time we first experiment wearing mums clothes and shoes, and ruining her make up, wasting her smelly stuff through puberty and adolescence into adulthood and beyond, that early experimentation should have evolved into something much better, and very often, even usually, does. Sadly, and women can be dreadful for this, once the "permanent" prey has been landed, all too often they fall sadly and badly into disrepair. Later attempts to recover lost beauty, or even just lost youth in the case of women certainly, often results in a sad parody of the original.

I know many cross dressing men, and women for that matter to some degree, are unable to get the advice they so badly require and so make many of the mistakes you outline. That is a cultural thing that will unfortunately be with us for some time to come. Luckily some have the luxury of sisters, or female friends who are sufficiently understanding to advise and help.. not all sadly and thats another condemnation of the world in which we live.

Neither this or my original post are intended to offend and I really hope no one does take offence. They are merely sincere attempts at trying to advise people of things to consider when thinking about what to wear and the look they hope to achieve. It is by no means an exhaustive list, but I hope is sufficient to be getting on with.

Love and luck to everyone and happy classy dressing to all.

And if I ever fall victim to a bout of bad taste.. I expect to be executed on the spot.. do not include me gob in this..or me morals... them ya luffs or leaves!!!


Believe me Dear Fran, I take no offense to your comments. I just wished to enlighten you to some possible reasons behind what people are doing, based on my personal experience.

& I for one appreciate the fact that you took your time to jot some of these items down here.

I have seen it all believe me from the 40yo man dressing like his grnadmother to the 30 yo dressed worse than a teenager. It's not pretty in most cases, but it does take experience at makeup and dressing to look nice.

It starts with pride. Take the time to express that in your choices about your clothes , makeup health and jewelery choices. Because even the most humble of smocks , when worn with some pride can look decent. But the most expensive clothes worn without pride will look like trash.

Just my :2cents: