Patriotic Duty (by Henry Gibson--j/k)

[vitt&cho]

"Wars throughout history have been waged for conquest and plunder.... the working class who fight all the battles, the working class who make the supreme sacrifices, the working class who freely shed their blood and furnish their corpses, have never yet had a voice in either declaring war or making peace. It is the ruling class that invariably does both. They alone declare war and they alone make peace....They are continually talking about their patriotic duty. It is not their but your patriotic duty that they are concerned about. There is a decided difference. Their patriotic duty never takes them to the firing line or chucks them into the trenches."—Eugene V. Debs

Thoughts? Theories?

[void()]

One of the more honest reproaches of war I've read in ages. Thoughts? Really none except thinking it has always been the same war, merely peppered with brief interruptions.

They regroup and reload during those interruptions. Ever notice when the big bullies stop warring, most others do as well. Sort of a team effort to respect the sacred regroup and reload time. The bullets being the proletarians.

We do outnumber the affluent class. Perhaps, we ought to find out the answer to the next question.

"What if they had a war but no one showed up to fight it?"

[vitt&cho]

Two Little Rulers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gheDSsd-S60)

this is a link people... check it out :)

[darkeyes]

"Wars throughout history have been waged for conquest and plunder.... the working class who fight all the battles, the working class who make the supreme sacrifices, the working class who freely shed their blood and furnish their corpses, have never yet had a voice in either declaring war or making peace. It is the ruling class that invariably does both. They alone declare war and they alone make peace....They are continually talking about their patriotic duty. It is not their but your patriotic duty that they are concerned about. There is a decided difference. Their patriotic duty never takes them to the firing line or chucks them into the trenches."—Eugene V. Debs

Thoughts? Theories?
Says it betta in a few lines than all the stuff me has sed in 'ere...

[darkeyes]

We do outnumber the affluent class. Perhaps, we ought to find out the answer to the next question.

"What if they had a war but no one showed up to fight it?"

... wy else hav patriotism Voidie???... it needed 2 keep up the supply a cannon fodder...

[FalconAngel]

Patriotism is a double-edged sword.

Some use it to stand for their nation and what is right while others use it to drive the disinformed to die for evil causes or give up their rights. (see Patriot Act)

We cannot always find something to kill for, but we can all find something worth fighting, and if necessary, dieing to protect.

[Trinity-Fl]

You would think that McCain's years as a prisoner of war would have made him appreciate the awful mistake Vietnam was. (I've wondered if, while sitting in his cell, he ever wondered, "WTF are we doin' over here?"

Bush and Cheney have sent almost 4000 young people to their deaths and physically damaged over 30,000 others and mentally damaged uncounted numbers of our young people for what I see as a fruitless blunder into a soverign country. They used the same arguments that the government used in the late 50s and 60s to promote the Vietnam conflict... If Vietnam falls, the whole area is a house of cards and will be overrun. Now it's Iraq and surroundings. Well,, Vietnam fell and we're still pretty much status quo.

A year ago, the American public sent a clear message to the administration - Bring our troops home! I just heard that the Pentagon has published the plans to send thousands more of our troops to Iraq in the summer of 2009. Let's ask for volunteers... Which mother wants her son to be the last soldier killed or maimed in Iraq?

You're right - politicians (the elite) send the working class (Yeah, the Army's a great career! Good pay. Good benefits.) to die. And, true, many of them believe in the cause. They have to believe to place themselves in harm's way but that doesn't mean they're right!

And if you disagree it doesn't make you "unpatriotic." During every war there is the knee jerk reaction to fear. "Give up your rights so we can catch the bad guys." It happened during WWI and WWII. How 'bout the camps they herded thousands of innocent Japanese to? The Patriot Act is about the greatest lost of rights we've ever suffered with Bush and especially Cheney leading the attack.

It's a complex world with very few simple solutions.

[darkeyes]

You would think that McCain's years as a prisoner of war would have made him appreciate the awful mistake Vietnam was. (I've wondered if, while sitting in his cell, he ever wondered, "WTF are we doin' over here?"

Bush and Cheney have sent almost 4000 young people to their deaths and physically damaged over 30,000 others and mentally damaged uncounted numbers of our young people for what I see as a fruitless blunder into a soverign country. They used the same arguments that the government used in the late 50s and 60s to promote the Vietnam conflict... If Vietnam falls, the whole area is a house of cards and will be overrun. Now it's Iraq and surroundings. Well,, Vietnam fell and we're still pretty much status quo.

A year ago, the American public sent a clear message to the administration - Bring our troops home! I just heard that the Pentagon has published the plans to send thousands more of our troops to Iraq in the summer of 2009. Let's ask for volunteers... Which mother wants her son to be the last soldier killed or maimed in Iraq?

You're right - politicians (the elite) send the working class (Yeah, the Army's a great career! Good pay. Good benefits.) to die. And, true, many of them believe in the cause. They have to believe to place themselves in harm's way but that doesn't mean they're right!

And if you disagree it doesn't make you "unpatriotic." During every war there is the knee jerk reaction to fear. "Give up your rights so we can catch the bad guys." It happened during WWI and WWII. How 'bout the camps they herded thousands of innocent Japanese to? The Patriot Act is about the greatest lost of rights we've ever suffered with Bush and especially Cheney leading the attack.

It's a complex world with very few simple solutions...and Afghanistan..and so it will go on..and on..and on....:(

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7653367.stm

[void()]

... wy else hav patriotism Voidie???... it needed 2 keep up the supply a cannon fodder...

Aye. Reminds why I loathe Walt Whitman. Jingoism concealed in artistic verse. Think him a deplorable pig. Alas, praises are sung for _Leaves of Grass_. Then, I nay got onto the band wagon of Huxley's _Brave New World_, either. He lacked transition in his writing, causing me to wonder what laced the hash. _1984_ was a more eloquent, subtle and terrifying way to iterate the points. More's the pity, here we are living it day out yet again.

[FalconAngel]

And if you disagree it doesn't make you "unpatriotic." During every war there is the knee jerk reaction to fear. "Give up your rights so we can catch the bad guys." It happened during WWI and WWII. How 'bout the camps they herded thousands of innocent Japanese to? The Patriot Act is about the greatest lost of rights we've ever suffered with Bush and especially Cheney leading the attack.

It's a complex world with very few simple solutions.


You are absolutely right. Our founding fathers were all, to a man, traitors. Most people forget that they were all British subjects when the "shot heard round the world" was fired.

Dissention is at the core of American Patriotism.

Speaking up whether right or wrong is the most patriotic thing that you can do.

Silencing the dissenters is the most UN-patriotic thing that we can do.

[vittoria]

Aye. Reminds why I loathe Walt Whitman. Jingoism concealed in artistic verse. Think him a deplorable pig. Alas, praises are sung for _Leaves of Grass_. Then, I nay got onto the band wagon of Huxley's _Brave New World_, either. He lacked transition in his writing, causing me to wonder what laced the hash. _1984_ was a more eloquent, subtle and terrifying way to iterate the points. More's the pity, here we are living it day out yet again.

1984--ahh George Orwell's prophetic masterpiece...along with 'soylent green', 'bladerunner', 'shock treatment' (yes, part 2 of 'rocky horror' made in 1982 which was about something the world never even thought of at the time~~REALITY TV and commercialism), and V for Vendetta are required watching (and even reading) for anyone to understand what is in store for us

(at least it isnt anything like 'Logans Run' yet... the movie version about how some kind of crystal is implanted in one's hand and when the person turns 30 years old they are killed so they wont get old and become a hinderance on society...or they run for a place called "Sanctuary" and take the chance of getting killed by an officer along the way!)

[void()]

Dominic: "What do you think will happen?"
Finch: "What usually happens when people without guns stand up to people *with* guns."

Quite excellent. And yes I agree on required literature and movies. Read _1984_ after reading _Flatland_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland), _The_City_of_the_Sun_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_of_the_Sun), _Dialogue_Between_a_Priest_and_a_Dying_Man_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialogue_Between_a_Priest_and_a_Dying_Man),
Castanada's Don Juan Series/ (http://www.prismagems.com/castaneda/), and for some light trash reading as complement _The_Mayfair_Witches_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mayfair_Witches). Read all of these compressed into about two or three months, one right after another and at times two or three together. Also read _Brave New World_ somewhere in there and _Stranger in A Strange Land_, portion of Plato's Sixth Republic and Aristotle's eight books on metaphysics. Any wonder the mind has left me?

[hudson9]

Debs had it absolutely right. I will add: people (of any class) are always more willing to send other people to die in war than are willing to go themselves or send their own children (Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld... NONE of them served in Vietnam).

I think my generation made a mistake when we pushed to eliminate the draft. We thought if no one (or very few) would enlist, they couldn't run a war. We underestimated their cleverness. Outsource the war: use "contractors" for everything from cooking the chow, to maintaining the technology, to manning and guarding convoys... exploit the fact that they've created a permanent economic underclass to drive people into the war machine.

If there had been a (truely fair) draft, if ANYONE could end up having to go, the opposition to these wars would have grown faster, been more vocal, and you can bet your ass Bush and Cheney would have been impeached for lying us into this mess and killing so many.

:2cents:

[Sarasvati]

"Wars throughout history have been waged for conquest and plunder.... the working class who fight all the battles, the working class who make the supreme sacrifices, the working class who freely shed their blood and furnish their corpses, have never yet had a voice in either declaring war or making peace. It is the ruling class that invariably does both. They alone declare war and they alone make peace....They are continually talking about their patriotic duty. It is not their but your patriotic duty that they are concerned about. There is a decided difference. Their patriotic duty never takes them to the firing line or chucks them into the trenches."—Eugene V. Debs

Thoughts? Theories?

Why do the impoverished masses not rise up and massacre their rulers?

[Sarasvati]

1984--ahh George Orwell's prophetic masterpiece...along with 'soylent green', 'bladerunner', 'shock treatment' (yes, part 2 of 'rocky horror' made in 1982 which was about something the world never even thought of at the time~~REALITY TV and commercialism), and V for Vendetta are required watching (and even reading) for anyone to understand what is in store for us

The violent censorship and suppression of free speculation, especially with regard to religion, ideology, politics and beliefs, is nothing new.

The renaissance, the reformation, the New World and the printing press allowed northern Europeans to slowly tear themselves away from the Catholic stranglehold of the dark ages. The advances in liberal democracy, medicine, science, technology, commerce, education, etc., etc., that we enjoy would otherwise never have been possible.

Do any of us in Britain, America or the modern West really envy the citizens of Equitorial Guinea, Cuba, China or Saudi Arabia today, or of the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany in the recent past?

What value are such future warnings as expressed above, if those who have the fortune not to live under such oppression do not respect it, and, even worse, sometimes promote violent, bloody revolution.

[void()]

Why do the impoverished masses not rise up and massacre their rulers?

I have been thinking a great deal about this question. Some of what has been involved.

Sic_semper_tyrannis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic_semper_tyrannis)

War is a racket (http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm)

Tao Te Ching (http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html)

And as much as it would seem the easy solution to reign hell upon the ruling class, it would be of no avail. You see it society is like the eternal serpent biting it's own head off only to regrow another. But our modern Western society, one based upon the Republic of Rome, is no mere serpent but a hydra.

There is no way to end such a cycle save for entropy. That way takes lots of time, as gentle streams topple huge mountains. Besides that, you run into the ever classic quagmire of "yeah, well tell us a better way." So far, unfortunate as it may be, no one claims mastery of that key.

[MarieDelta]

Problem with revolutions - usually you end up with the same scoundrels in different dress.

Remember the French revolution? Killed all the aristocracy that they could get their hands on, the revolution committee turned out to be as harsh a mistress as the monarchy.

The Russian revolution - same thing. Killed all the aristocracy, but Stalin turned into a monster of titanic proportions.

We need to revolutionize ourselves, which is the harder work. By which I mean to say that we still need to stand up and be counted. But we need to do this in a different way, a peaceful way, a way that doesn't place the same masters in charge yet again.

As Audre Lorde said: “The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house.”

[darkeyes]

Problem with revolutions - usually you end up with the same scoundrels in different dress.

Remember the French revolution? Killed all the aristocracy that they could get their hands on, the revolution committee turned out to be as harsh a mistress as the monarchy.

The Russian revolution - same thing. Killed all the aristocracy, but Stalin turned into a monster of titanic proportions.

We need to revolutionize ourselves, which is the harder work. By which I mean to say that we still need to stand up and be counted. But we need to do this in a different way, a peaceful way, a way that doesn't place the same masters in charge yet again.

As Audre Lorde said: “The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house.”

Violence begats violence sadly Marie.. but ther r beacons a hope.. in the 1970's afta Salazar died they had a revolution wich the world can look on as true hope.. a truly peaceful revolution wich changed everything... it wos called the Carnation revolution an as an illustration that humanity will not always vresort 2 terror an evil afta revolution.. look 2 Portugal an wer Portugal is 2 day:)

[TwylaTwobits]

Very true, Marie and Darkeyes. The one good thing about the way evil works is that sometimes it's self destructive. Plenty of revolutions begin with good intentions but then the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Somewhere along the way they lose what they are fighting for and just fight, when it is over, everyone has lost a piece of themselves if they are the victor and usually their lives if they are the loser.

[void()]

Problem with revolutions - usually you end up with the same scoundrels in different dress.

Let's skip a revolution. See? Revolution means it all goes around and around.
We don't want it coming back. Let's have an evolution. We can grow, adapt and evolve to be better. Frankly, I think _Hurt Locker_ had a potent message concealed. "War is for children." We as a race are no longer children but mature. Why have we not put aside childish things? Because we can not, or will not evolve.

I think we can. Each day brings that hope. It's one of the few things keeping me standing fast despite feeling as though it's all caca. For every Evil monster out there, you find two heroes/heroins. That's motivation to stay.
But c'mon let's evolve already.

[nakedheathen]

Interesting discussion, I note the absence of veterans. I am one. I have been to Iraq twice and Afghanistan and I'll go again. Why? Someone has to or else Osama bin laden and his ilk will fly more planes into more buildings. I love pacifists, I just wish there were more of you. Until all the world is a pacifist, the second to last non pacifist better be on your side and better be a better soldier than the last non pacifist bad guy. Put this into the context of WWII. Hitler was killing jews, gypsy, gays, and anyone else he wanted. He wasnt going to be stopped by a large group of pacifists, sorry. Look at Osama bin Laden. Only way he is going to quit trying to establish his caliphate is for him to die. How about the knuckle head in Ft hood TX. Wouldnt I like to have been in his hospital room when he woke up and didnt see any virgins.

Keep working for peace. We need it. We need justice, that will breed peace quicker than anything else. Until then, I am afraid that I will need to go out there again and again.

[TwylaTwobits]

Just a note to tell naked.... Thank you.

[darkeyes]

Interesting discussion, I note the absence of veterans. I am one. I have been to Iraq twice and Afghanistan and I'll go again. Why? Someone has to or else Osama bin laden and his ilk will fly more planes into more buildings. I love pacifists, I just wish there were more of you. Until all the world is a pacifist, the second to last non pacifist better be on your side and better be a better soldier than the last non pacifist bad guy. Put this into the context of WWII. Hitler was killing jews, gypsy, gays, and anyone else he wanted. He wasnt going to be stopped by a large group of pacifists, sorry. Look at Osama bin Laden. Only way he is going to quit trying to establish his caliphate is for him to die. How about the knuckle head in Ft hood TX. Wouldnt I like to have been in his hospital room when he woke up and didnt see any virgins.

Keep working for peace. We need it. We need justice, that will breed peace quicker than anything else. Until then, I am afraid that I will need to go out there again and again.

*Sigh*

I understand your reasoning and know that is the world in which we live. Yet too few understand that the Bin Ladens of this world are there because in the past they have been faced with just such as you. That isn't a criticism of you and those like you, merely an acceptance unhappily that those who encourage us to be patriots and line up to die for king and country are not encouraging us to sacrifice our lives for our way of life, but to lay those lives down for the retention of their privileges, power and wealth..

.. the way of the west is not the only way.. yet when war looms, invariably it is against those societies with whom we have least in common.. we may not like Bin Laden, we may not be Palestinian, Iraqi, Iranian or Afghan..and we may not be Islamic.. but we have to understand that how they live is every bit as valid as our way of life.. it is so much easier to motivate the masses to risk life and limb for a war against a bogeyman.. Islam is the west's current bogeyman, and we are Islam's.. both sides in one way or another stir up suspicion and hatred, both sides prepare young men and women to kill and maim, both sides send out young people to slaughter indiscriminately by accident or design..

I am not anti Islamic.. nor can I bring myself to hate any human being for his or her belief.. I am a pacifist in part because I know why we war.. and it is not for the reasons we are told.. I am a pacifist because I value the richness of our world and our species.. I value each culture and value human life and will not take another's.. greed, selfishness and power is why we war.. if every man and woman not of the elite said no.. then they would have to fight their own dirty, nasty, little war.. and they would soon realise the futility of it all, or destroy life itself on this beautiful place.. I am an idealist sure.. I live by that ideal..and will die by it..

I know what you are saying. History and the world seem to bear you out.. yet if the leaders of the world decided there would be no war, then it would quite quickly become a thing of the past.. but leaders, of nations and of militia's, religious groups and freedom fighters have no interest in that, for they have only their own interests and the interests of their own creed and elite at heart.. their power, their wealth, their perennial march for more and more.. if the mass of people decided to the contrary.. they ultimately could do nothing and the dawn of true peace would be upon us.. until that day dawns, they will continue, assisted by vested interests and the media, to send millions upon millions of people to a nasty, disgusting death on their behalf...:(

[void()]

Naked,

Thank you brother. Your work is appreciated. I gave up being pacifist when I was twenty. That also meant leaving the Mennonite faith. I served albeit briefly in U.S.N.

I'm fairly on kilter with dark eyes' view. Some of her view I may not fully agree with but that's expected and even welcomed. If we were all dark eyes then our world just as well commit suicide.

And no that's not a slight against dark eyes. It is just saying we can't all be the same. A sad but true fact. At any given, be safe in your work brother we hope it soon ends. Right now, I'm left to defend the kin and those I love. Beyond that I'm not serving.

Run it slow.

[FalconAngel]

Interesting discussion, I note the absence of veterans.


Uumm, Naked?

I am also a vet. 1978 - 1984, US Army. I was stationed overseas during the real terrorist threats, when we refused to take action. I was in London the day that the IRA bombed Harrod's and our base was constantly receiving threats and being picketed by the CND.

At least, in the sandbox, you could shoot back. We were not allowed to do so.

There are a lot of us vets here (even a few from the war in Vietnam), we don't all mention it very often.

Hell, I didn't even know that Voidy was a vet until he mentioned it on this thread, and we've both been on this site for years.

[void()]

Falcon,

Yes sir, did a bit in service. It wasn't long enough though. Unfortunately there was some notion about physiques and welding ship hauls, or helping udts. Do recall about a month that I rather not discuss too much. Went to a bad place, did bad things to bad people. We sent a message. It was understood real clearly. Much as I'd rather soldiers be unneeded, they still are.

Funny, grandfather and uncle were both Army infantry. Grandfather went through WWII, uncle through 'Nam. Both agreed war is located in hell. Dad was a Leatherneck, made it rough as a sailor. At least I wasn't a fly boy. But we're all green through and through.

[MarieDelta]

Did my time in the USAF - FWIW. Cold war era (1986-1990)

There are quite a few of us Vets on here...


Not all of us post, and not all of us feel the same way...

I appreciate anyone who has served in the military, even if it was just peeling spuds.

[darkeyes]

Uumm, Naked?

I am also a vet. 1978 - 1984, US Army. I was stationed overseas during the real terrorist threats, when we refused to take action. I was in London the day that the IRA bombed Harrod's and our base was constantly receiving threats and being picketed by the CND.

At least, in the sandbox, you could shoot back.

CND were terrorists? Me don think so Falcie.. me mum spent quite a lotta time camped outside Greenham Common an picketed several otha US air bases and we wer taken 'long as part of our education.. think me wos 3 or 4 an memba sum big boobies.. oops soz.. bobbies.. naaa wos rite 1st time..boobies shoutin at me mum an the otha women, them screamin back, an me an me bruvva screamin our heads off scared silly.. that'd b bout the time u wer here wudn it? Mayb we met then.. on otha sida fence... prob wee'd on ya breeks or summat...:bigrin:

Hav been a memba CND since very young an they can hardly b described as a terrorist organisation.. not sure u meant it as it read, but puttin it in same breath as the harrod's bombin wos hardly ver cleva..mayb a lil more effort huh?