Dontcha Jus Luff 'Em?

[darkeyes]

Wonda how long me wud get for shuvvin a treatment couch up a bigotted arseholes arse? Not very pacifist Fran... but sumtimes me reads stuff wich makes the blood boil...:eek:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7963828.stm
http://www.treatmentshomosexuality.org.uk/

[rissababynta]

Well, this crap probably still wouldn't be happening if some homosexuals were not seeking change, which is quite a sad thought.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Oh Puleeessee. You cant change who and what you were born to be. Its like trying to teach a duck to crow like a chicken, it just Doesnt work. (I mean, they got one that yells like AFLACK, but that's neither here nor there.....)lol

When are people going to learn to leave well enough alone, and just let people be people...? Idjets. :2cents:
Too early in the morning to think coherantly....
Still sleepy Cay

[rissababynta]

Oh Puleeessee. You cant change who and what you were born to be. Its like trying to teach a duck to crow like a chicken, it just Doesnt work. (I mean, they got one that yells like AFLACK, but that's neither here nor there.....)lol

When are people going to learn to leave well enough alone, and just let people be people...? Idjets. :2cents:
Too early in the morning to think coherantly....
Still sleepy Cay

I told my husband that I want a duck someday and I'm going to name it Aflack.

Hey! They do have dogs and cats and stuff that can say "I love you" though!

[PolyLoveTriad]

Wonda how long me wud get for shuvvin a treatment couch up a bigotted arseholes arse? Not very pacifist Fran... but sumtimes me reads stuff wich makes the blood boil...:eek:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7963828.stm
http://www.treatmentshomosexuality.org.uk/

Sighhhhhhhhhh can someone please tell me what year it is? I was so under the impression this was the 21st century but I suppose I could be wrong.

This upsets me too Dark so I dont blame you a bit for getting riled over it. These therapists, psychologists etc need to be helping people who come to them seeking "help" with coming to terms with their sexuality and feeling more comfortable with who they are. NOT trying to "change" them and make them feel more confused.

Now my cat, he really thinks he is a dog, he hangs out with the dogs, plays with the dogs toys, sleeps with the dogs and yes, he even does a "bark" very similar to our dogs. I wonder if we should be taking him to a therapist.... *grin*

[PolyLoveTriad]

I told my husband that I want a duck someday and I'm going to name it Aflack.

Hey! They do have dogs and cats and stuff that can say "I love you" though!

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck?? QUACK QUACK BABYYYYY take me home! Hehehehe

[rissababynta]

Sighhhhhhhhhh can someone please tell me what year it is? I was so under the impression this was the 21st century but I suppose I could be wrong.

This upsets me too Dark so I dont blame you a bit for getting riled over it. These therapists, psychologists etc need to be helping people who come to them seeking "help" with coming to terms with their sexuality and feeling more comfortable with who they are. NOT trying to "change" them and make them feel more confused.

Now my cat, he really thinks he is a dog, he hangs out with the dogs, plays with the dogs toys, sleeps with the dogs and yes, he even does a "bark" very similar to our dogs. I wonder if we should be taking him to a therapist.... *grin*

Seriously! The last time I checked none of my psychology teachers taught me that it was at all ethical to change your patient, even if they did ask you to.

[evilpanda]

look at it this way. in a decade or so, these people will be a decade older and, therefore, much fewer in numbers. time is on our side, because so much of this divide is generational.

they can try to keep their children in a pious state of being perpetually weirded out by queers, but it only works some of the time. and those unfortunate enough to stay in the 20th century will be as outdated and ostracized from society as the parents of baby Adolf.

[izzfan]

I read this article on BBC news today and my reaction was one of disbelief, before checking the calender to see if it was April Fool's day already. I have heard about "reparative therapy" in some areas of the US, but I didn't think that it went on in the UK. The phrase: "The incidence appeared to be as prevalent in recent years as decades earlier." in the article is quite shocking.

I have heard/read horror stories about how psychiatrists used to try and "treat" homosexuality in the 1960s/1970s and I'm reading some of the ones on the other site, but I thought that such approaches were well and truly consigned to the dustbin years ago. It's scary to think that they are still going on in any way, shape or form.

[darkeyes]

I read this article on BBC news today and my reaction was one of disbelief, before checking the calender to see if it was April Fool's day already. I have heard about "reparative therapy" in some areas of the US, but I didn't think that it went on in the UK. The phrase: "The incidence appeared to be as prevalent in recent years as decades earlier." in the article is quite shocking.

I have heard/read horror stories about how psychiatrists used to try and "treat" homosexuality in the 1960s/1970s and I'm reading some of the ones on the other site, but I thought that such approaches were well and truly consigned to the dustbin years ago. It's scary to think that they are still going on in any way, shape or form.

Don it jus makeya wanna boak Izz hun? The getts betta not b allowed 2 offer it on the National Health or it won jus b me whose blood is boilin... that wud jus b 2 much 2 take..:eek: Way me instincts go they shud b stopped by law.. but doubt that will happen.. tho it seems 2 me 2 b the psychiatric equivalent a removin a healthy kidney ..:eek:

[allbimyself]

Don it jus makeya wanna boak Izz hun? The getts betta not b allowed 2 offer it on the National Health or it won jus b me whose blood is boilin... that wud jus b 2 much 2 take..:eek: Way me instincts go they shud b stopped by law.. but doubt that will happen.. tho it seems 2 me 2 b the psychiatric equivalent a removin a healthy kidney ..:eek:I don't know, Fran. If the NHS can pander to other bits of nonsense (homeopathy and other "alternative therapies") it would be discrimination to not pander to other absurd beliefs.

[darkeyes]

I don't know, Fran. If the NHS can pander to other bits of nonsense (homeopathy and other "alternative therapies") it would be discrimination to not pander to other absurd beliefs.
Surprised atya Allbi hun... closin ya mind 2 stuff like shiatsu, chinese medicine inc acupunture (wich me mum gets for treatment a pain on 'er joints an neck..), homeopathy, herbalism (those 2 me has used an dus use for migraines an very successfully an all... they havn haff cut down the frequency an the severity..) an the like.. they r complimentary 2 conventional medicine not a replacement for it per se.. tho sumtimes they r the best remedy for many complaints... always thot ya wer an open minded sorta guy... not everythin is recommended within each kinda alternative medicine cos the NHS is a lil pikky an prob ritely so.. don wanna hav me poisoned an dun in by a traditional remedy wich kills me off do we??? They havta b approved.. tho sumtimes me wondas wy sum r not given approval.. Now u pop along 2 ya local conventional quack an tell 'im or 'er not 2 b such a silly boy or girl an open 'is or 'er mind.. an u open urs an don b so soft!!! Muah...:tong:

Lotsa things in medicine r not an shud nev b acceptable.. stuff the nazis did for instance.. neitha shud owt b allowed wich is used for reasons a prejudice an intolerance...

[allbimyself]

Surprised atya Allbi hun... closin ya mind 2 stuff like shiatsu, chinese medicine inc acupunture (wich me mum gets for treatment a pain on 'er joints an neck..), homeopathy, herbalism (those 2 me has used an dus use for migraines an very successfully an all... they havn haff cut down the frequency an the severity..) an the like.. they r complimentary 2 conventional medicine not a replacement for it per se.. tho sumtimes they r the best remedy for many complaints... always thot ya wer an open minded sorta guy... not everythin is recommended within each kinda alternative medicine cos the NHS is a lil pikky an prob ritely so.. don wanna hav me poisoned an dun in by a traditional remedy wich kills me off do we??? They havta b approved.. tho sumtimes me wondas wy sum r not given approval.. Now u pop along 2 ya local conventional quack an tell 'im or 'er not 2 b such a silly boy or girl an open 'is or 'er mind.. an u open urs an don b so soft!!! Muah...:tong:

Lotsa things in medicine r not an shud nev b acceptable.. stuff the nazis did for instance.. neitha shud owt b allowed wich is used for reasons a prejudice an intolerance...Fran, I have no prejudice or intolerance for "alternative" or "complementary" medicine. I simply ask that before they are used to "treat" anything they are subject to proper double-blind studies. Read up on the difference between anecdotal evidence (which you provide) and empirical evidence.

BTW, the NHS only weeds out the obviously unsafe (e.g. the poisons you mentioned) but does NOT exclude anything just because it may lack efficacy.

[Holmes]

I have no problems when a therapist is helping someone accept themselves as they are , but seriously. There are enough fringe groups trying this crap and they don't need validation from the NHS to try and back that position. Besides you would think with the scandal one of the groups had a few years ago they wiould crawl away and hide. Long short two "former gays" with wives a kids went on a tour to tell all how they were made "straight" in the end the left the wives and kids and became a couple . Kindof skews the stats don't it?

[totchune]

Fran, I have no prejudice or intolerance for "alternative" or "complementary" medicine. I simply ask that before they are used to "treat" anything they are subject to proper double-blind studies. Read up on the difference between anecdotal evidence (which you provide) and empirical evidence.

BTW, the NHS only weeds out the obviously unsafe (e.g. the poisons you mentioned) but does NOT exclude anything just because it may lack efficacy.

Are you saying that we should discard mainstream western medicine because placebo pills occasionally work just as well as actual medication, so it's all based on belief (mind) and not on biology (body)?

Patients have undertaken surgery without anesthetics, just by using acupuncture...whether this and other eastern medicine or natural treatment "miracles" are made possible because of a belief or not, as long as they works, most are a lot less toxic and dangerous than the heavy drugs mainstream medicine uses, with their countless side effects...

Ultimately, patients need to protect their freedom to choose.

[allbimyself]

Are you saying that we should discard mainstream western medicine because placebo pills occasionally work just as well as actual medication, so it's all based on belief (mind) and not on biology (body)Nope. Didn't say that at all.


Patients have undertaken surgery without anesthetics, just by using acupuncture...whether this and other eastern medicine or natural treatment "miracles" are made possible because of a belief or not, as long as they works, most are a lot less toxic and dangerous than the heavy drugs mainstream medicine uses, with their countless side effects...Great. As long as efficacy is proven using proper double-blind testing which is subject to peer review (just as ALL traditional western medicine is subject to).


Ultimately, patients need to protect their freedom to choose.
"Aye, there's the rub." Not everyone has the freedom to choose. Parents have been convicted of reckless endangerment and child abuse for refusing traditional medicine in favor of prayer in treatment of their underage children. This is no different. The NHS, by offering unproven techniques of treatment, is, in the mind of patients, saying "this works."

BTW, before anyone adopts the popular "science can't explain..." argument, the scientific method can PROVE something works without explaining how. For decades surgeons noted that sterilized surgical instruments resulted in higher survivability without the knowledge of what caused infection.

As far as the placebo affect is concerned, all treatments are subject to it. That's one of the reasons double-blind, repeatable and peer reviewed studies are required of all traditional treatments and should be for all alternative treatments.

[darkeyes]

Please don misundastand me Allbi.. don hav a downer on convenvtional medicine.. an do concede at least in part ya point bout testin.. many many peeps in an outa the medical profession think the NHS shud hav nowt 2 do wiv alternative medicine for much the same reasons as u question.. the NHS spends bout 1.5 billion quid on alternative treatments wich they think cud b spent betta elsewer.. on otha hand many many both in an outa the profession think it has proven its usefulness in many areas... many conventional treatments r in fact refined versions a traditional remedies wer the testin has taken place.. anecdotal evidence is but a pointer spesh wen it is 1st hand.. so it has its place tho do concede 'gain ya point bout propa study.. howeva.. many..spesh herbal remedies wich hav been used for centuries do work as do many within the homeopathic field.. traditional chinese medicine has much 2 teach an the use a acupunture is but one example wich has proved its usefuleness.. an wich has evidence an studies wich prove this.. alternative an complimentary medicine is no replacement for the conventional wich we find mosly 2 day..nor shud it b.. it has twice played a huge part in me own life an is responsible for me bein 'ere 2day...the las time not so very long 'go...

.. howevea don hav entirely ur apparent faith in study an testin.. far 2 many tested an tried medicines hav proven 2 b inadequate at best, wiv many nasty side effects not realised until in common use, harmful in the middle order an downright lethal in the extreme... so even ur point bout testin actually has its drawbacks an all...

[allbimyself]

Fran,

There have been no studies that have survived peer review (i.e. they were not properly conducted) that prove the efficacy of ANY "homeopathic" remedy. There HAVE been a couple treatments that labeled themselves as "homeopathic" that have proven effective, however they were NOT true homeopathic remedies (they contained non-homeopathic ingredients.)

Herbal remedies, obviously, CAN have efficacy. But the danger with those is that they rarely are subject to the same scrutiny for safety as manufactured drugs. They do NOT have to go through the same clinical trials for safety. However, as you've pointed out, that doesn't guarantee safety but has prevented some drugs from being approved. But, you seem to imply that alternative or complementary treatments are always safe. That is NOT the case. And is even more dangerous when it causes the patient not to accept proven treatments.

Of course, I'm sure you wouldn't suggest that we treat AIDS with beet root and having the patient have sex with a virgin, but those are examples of alternative therapies being "prescribed."

Also, every study I've seen that has "proven" the efficacy acupuncture didn't survive even a cursory glance when subject to peer review. Properly conducted double-blind studies have failed to prove the efficacy.

I don't mean to belittle your personal experiences, however, I can introduce you to hundreds of people that will tell you about personal "miracles" and experiences with God. Would you consider that proof of the existence of one? I think not.

[darkeyes]

Fran,

There have been no studies that have survived peer review (i.e. they were not properly conducted) that prove the efficacy of ANY "homeopathic" remedy. There HAVE been a couple treatments that labeled themselves as "homeopathic" that have proven effective, however they were NOT true homeopathic remedies (they contained non-homeopathic ingredients.)

Herbal remedies, obviously, CAN have efficacy. But the danger with those is that they rarely are subject to the same scrutiny for safety as manufactured drugs. They do NOT have to go through the same clinical trials for safety. However, as you've pointed out, that doesn't guarantee safety but has prevented some drugs from being approved. But, you seem to imply that alternative or complementary treatments are always safe. That is NOT the case. And is even more dangerous when it causes the patient not to accept proven treatments.

Of course, I'm sure you wouldn't suggest that we treat AIDS with beet root and having the patient have sex with a virgin, but those are examples of alternative therapies being "prescribed."

Also, every study I've seen that has "proven" the efficacy acupuncture didn't survive even a cursory glance when subject to peer review. Properly conducted double-blind studies have failed to prove the efficacy.

I don't mean to belittle your personal experiences, however, I can introduce you to hundreds of people that will tell you about personal "miracles" and experiences with God. Would you consider that proof of the existence of one? I think not.

Me wud eat beetroot if me wos HIV.. wudn do me ne harm.. but nope nor wud it b me cure... am not sayin yas rong from ya own point a view.. an am not tellin ya bout miracle cures.. not 1ce has me mentioned that expression.. am sayin me also knos lotsa peeps whose condition has been helped an alleviated by non conventional medicines.... anya kno wot me thinksa God an 'is an 'is boy's lil "gems" a healin the sick...so we kinda cum 2 an impasse.. jus cos summat aint proved by drug companies med research labs or woteva is not a recommendation 2 dismissin a treatments efficacy (do luff that word..keep on wiv it).. in many cases they hav a vested interest in disprovin or at the very least discredittin alternative medicine.. tho they r kwik enuff 2 pik up on summat wich mite be new from the alternative field an a possibility 2 make billions by developin ther own version an claimin it as ther own...

Ya sooks the boilin of ya choice Allbi... an wetha mintie or sour or sweet or bitter we sook that boilin based on wot we kno an don sook it blindfolded... in end thats all ne of us can do...:)

[allbimyself]

Me wud eat beetroot if me wos HIV.. wudn do me ne harm.. but nope nor wud it b me cure... am not sayin yas rong from ya own point a view.. an am not tellin ya bout miracle cures.. not 1ce has me mentioned that expression..
I never said you did. I was speaking of anecdotal evidence of the existence of God and comparing it to anecdotal evidence of the effectiveness of ANY medical treatment.

am sayin me also knos lotsa peeps whose condition has been helped an alleviated by non conventional medicines.... anya kno wot me thinksa God an 'is an 'is boy's lil "gems" a healin the sickWhich is why I used that argument.
...so we kinda cum 2 an impasse.. jus cos summat aint proved by drug companies med research labs or woteva is not a recommendation 2 dismissin a treatments efficacy (do luff that word..keep on wiv it).. in many cases they hav a vested interest in disprovin or at the very least discredittin alternative medicine.. tho they r kwik enuff 2 pik up on summat wich mite be new from the alternative field an a possibility 2 make billions by developin ther own version an claimin it as ther own... Ahh. I see. This isn't about science or medicine, it's about politics. You are assuming that no one else studies these things. Government labs, universities and other disinterested third parties are my sources. Not Merck.

And, BTW, the drug companies making profit doesn't make them evil. You think the companies peddling homeopathy and other snake oil, or the "physicians" performing acupuncture aren't raking in the money? Do you even know what a homeopathic remedy is? Basically, it's an "active" ingredient diluted to the point that it contains zero active ingredient. We are talking even less than a grain of sand compared to the size of Earth dilution (which is why they can use poisons as active ingredients, there's none left in the final product). So, they are charging $5, $10, $20 for an ounce of pure water! And you complain about the amount of money pharmaceutical companies make? At least they have to spend a boatload of money in research, efficacy testing and safety testing. All "alternative" remedy manufacturers have to do is market their product. They have to prove nothing.


Ya sooks the boilin of ya choice Allbi... an wetha mintie or sour or sweet or bitter we sook that boilin based on wot we kno an don sook it blindfolded... in end thats all ne of us can do...:)That would be all well and good if this wasn't a life or death matter.

[darkeyes]

That would be all well and good if this wasn't a life or death matter.

Will say this Allbi..wen it came 2 life an death conventional treatment an medicine wos all ther wos available 1st time round an 2cd time wos the treatment an medicine a me choice...:)

.. an hav nev sed drug companies r evil... well no moren ne otha big capitalist biz..;)

[darkeyes]

..an no Allbi..me don play politics wiv health .. or peeps lives.. tho it can b argued that woteva we believe an argue is politikkin in 1 way or t'otha..

[allbimyself]

You're the one that brought up money made by companies, Fran, and knowing you that is political.

I also notice you didn't address the money being made by the companies/individuals providing snake oil or charging $20 for an ounce of distilled water.

[darkeyes]

You're the one that brought up money made by companies, Fran, and knowing you that is political.

I also notice you didn't address the money being made by the companies/individuals providing snake oil or charging $20 for an ounce of distilled water.

Ther r certain things even me cant stomache hun... many r rip offs an few more so than bottled wata...spesh wen the stuff outa the tap is at least as pure an as gud for ya as that.. an a damn site cheapa an environmentally friendly.. an as u say snake oil..that 1 depends wotya refer 2 as snake oil...but do accept ther lots of it 'bout..

.. now scuse me..havta gerrout an c bout sum decent snake oil.. like plonk an cognac an stuff.. tee hee;):bigrin:

[allbimyself]

:rolleyes:

[darkeyes]

:rolleyes:God Allbi...snake oil is brill.. me feels triff this mornin.. well afty.. tee hee... nice long lie helped even tho clocks went forward 2 day... no hangova..jus all smiles afta brill nite out..:bigrin: Had rite amount 2 make it perfect...;)