Anyone else dislike Queens, Nelly, or femme men? [Archive]

AmericanBeauty

Apr 20, 2009, 5:01 AM

M. Wolfe

Apr 20, 2009, 5:17 AM

Apparently I do at least on the other thread - you know the one I'm talking about, but it's not true, he's boyish goddammit!!!

- ahem.

No, I don't like them over femininity is just plain wrong to me, but at the same time the other extreme is also true, I don't like excessive masculinity either. A well balanced guy (perhaps ever-so-slightly on the fem side - slender, long hair, those general qualities) are the most attractive.

I see around me what I call the peacock conundrum. As we all know, the big flashy beautiful peacock is the male, his reproduction depends on his presentation. The peahen in the dull, brown lump of a bird. In our society it's the other way round. The guys are supposed to leave themselves untouched, rugged and butch, while the girls pretty up. I like the guys who look after their image, keep their hair clean, face clear, just make themselves presentable - but not going overboard, the 'metrosexual' type.

Queens & co. ruin the whole thing - like a peacock on fire, it's failure.

cand86

Apr 20, 2009, 5:20 AM

AmericanBeauty

Apr 20, 2009, 5:26 AM

Am I the only one detecting just a bit of femme phobia here?

I mean, it's one thing to say you're not into femme men; many just don't like "queens", and that's cool. I'm just not into big macho dudes, but I don't go around saying that they're faking and acting that way to get attention.

I like femme men (somewhat of a conundrum for me, since most are gay), and for every bad quality you've listed here (qualities which, I'll remind you, are universal), there's a good one to counter it.

Methinks maybe you've had some run-ins with femme guys who just happened to be jerks.

I have friends who are sort of femmey but they're nowhere near as bad as queens and I have yet to meet a femme/queen guy who doesn't put on a total act and just the way he does just for attention and who isn't a total flake.

Even my friends who have had long term relationships with femmey male partners said how they're like this and are major flakes and drama queens making a huge fuss out of nothing all the time over everything.

bityme

Apr 20, 2009, 5:52 AM

Anyone else here dislike guys that are femme, nelly, or who would be called queens or as the British say camp men or a sissy?

I'm talking about guys who call everyone Hon or honey, sweetie, even other men, and they're your stereotypical flaming guy.

I don't like them because they are so fake and have all of the qualities that I don't like in people such as vapidness, being totally fake, way too over affectionate/sweet, and many are totally passive/aggressive and appear nice but then are really vapid, mean, untrustworthy, and two faced behind your back or towards other people even people who they consider to be their "friends".

Also these men are walking stereotypes and are just really putting on a fake act and acting this way to get attention even if it's negative attention, and it's all just a fake act they do just to get attention from everyone.

WOW!:eek: Talk about being judgmental! While I am not attracted to Queens, I cannot agree that they are all fake, mean, untrustworthy, and two-faced. That is a pretty strong generalization. Is it fair to make such a comment without really knowing the individual? Could this be a bisexual expression of animosity toward those who are totally and unequivocally gay?

I have met some Queens who are as you describe; I have also met some who are not. I prefer to judge each individual on their own merits.

Haven't you met women with exactly the same qualities; calling everyone honey or sweetie, being fake, mean, untrustworthy, and two-faced? These are all traits that can be found in people of either gender. It is inappropriate to deride one portion of that group simply because we don't like them?

What is the normal reaction when a hetero or a gay says that bisexuals are just playing at being gay and that they need to get off the fence and make up their mind?

Several of the threads lately have discussed the fact that human sexuality is not an either/or mandate. Rather it is a spectrum which has individuals at all points in between the extremes. If we accept someone in the middle of the spectrum for what and who they are, are we not obligated to also accept those on the extreme ends? Just my:2cents: :soapbox:

MarieDelta

Apr 20, 2009, 6:30 AM

rissababynta

Apr 20, 2009, 10:25 AM

WOW!:eek: Talk about being judgmental! While I am not attracted to Queens, I cannot agree that they are all fake, mean, untrustworthy, and two-faced. That is a pretty strong generalization. Is it fair to make such a comment without really knowing the individual? Could this be a bisexual expression of animosity toward those who are totally and unequivocally gay?

I have met some Queens who are as you describe; I have also met some who are not. I prefer to judge each individual on their own merits.

Haven't you met women with exactly the same qualities; calling everyone honey or sweetie, being fake, mean, untrustworthy, and two-faced? These are all traits that can be found in people of either gender. It is inappropriate to deride one portion of that group simply because we don't like them?

What is the normal reaction when a hetero or a gay says that bisexuals are just playing at being gay and that they need to get off the fence and make up their mind?

Several of the threads lately have discussed the fact that human sexuality is not an either/or mandate. Rather it is a spectrum which has individuals at all points in between the extremes. If we accept someone in the middle of the spectrum for what and who they are, are we not obligated to also accept those on the extreme ends? Just my:2cents: :soapbox:

My thoughts exactly!

I knew a friend in school that had a relationship with the quarter back, had beach blonde hair, was skinny as hell, cracked gum all day long, used terms such as "I was like...Ohhhh my GOD!" while twirling her hair and was such an air head. Guess what, she was a cheerleader! One big walking stereotype of a cheerleader! However...that was completey HER...she was not fake and she was a lovely person.

Don't judge a stereotype by it's cover.

TaylorMade

Apr 20, 2009, 2:16 PM

LIke most things, it depends on the person.

If someone is a jerk, then they are a jerk, and it doesnt matter what their mannerisms are.

A friend will stick with ya no matter what, and some folks are just a$$hole$.

True. But I admit most of my gay male friends, or the gay/bi men I am closest to are masculine/straight acting. Most of my experiences with more feminine men end with me overpowering them, or them trying to make me over.

Masculine men are usually more intrigued by the fact that I'm like them, but ...equipped differently.

*Taylor*

Bi-Zarro

Apr 20, 2009, 3:07 PM

Actually, some of the men I've liked have been pretty "femme." So, no, it's not a problem for me at all.

(Of course, there are some Evil Queens out there, but so what?)

darkeyes

Apr 20, 2009, 3:55 PM

Peeps r peeps r peeps r peeps.. no matta wot peeps r like, sum will like an luff em.. an sum won.. waya the world..:)

NJ Mac

Apr 20, 2009, 3:58 PM

I'd say most people the world over dislike men who don't act the way people like you would prefer them to act. The evidence abounds -- think of all the men beaten, stoned, stabbed and shot to death for "acting" too femme, sissy, etc.

Why you feel the need to broadcast this anti-gay, pro-conformist bullshit here, on a bisexual website of all places, is unclear. Maybe you could join a neo-Nazi group. You know, after you move out of your mom's basement.

AmericanBeauty

Apr 20, 2009, 5:32 PM

WOW!:eek: Talk about being judgmental! While I am not attracted to Queens, I cannot agree that they are all fake, mean, untrustworthy, and two-faced. That is a pretty strong generalization. Is it fair to make such a comment without really knowing the individual? Could this be a bisexual expression of animosity toward those who are totally and unequivocally gay?

I have met some Queens who are as you describe; I have also met some who are not. I prefer to judge each individual on their own merits.

Haven't you met women with exactly the same qualities; calling everyone honey or sweetie, being fake, mean, untrustworthy, and two-faced? These are all traits that can be found in people of either gender. It is inappropriate to deride one portion of that group simply because we don't like them?

What is the normal reaction when a hetero or a gay says that bisexuals are just playing at being gay and that they need to get off the fence and make up their mind?

Several of the threads lately have discussed the fact that human sexuality is not an either/or mandate. Rather it is a spectrum which has individuals at all points in between the extremes. If we accept someone in the middle of the spectrum for what and who they are, are we not obligated to also accept those on the extreme ends? Just my:2cents: :soapbox:

You're going by the homophobic assumption or stereotype, that all men who are femme/queens will be gay when that's not the case.

I've met bisexual men who are femmey queens and they are just as flakey, fake, and as bad as the gay ones.

There are even femmey heterosexual men.

As far as comparing my viewpoints to biphobia or even homophobia, don't even go there as you can't compare the two and I've never had anyone, even a queen say that I was confused or really gay but just closeted since I came out to them as being bisexual, and I'm not being homophobic just because I don't like queens and how they act with their mind games, passive/aggressive behaviour, fake behaviour, and how they can be flat out worse at this than women are.

NJ Mac-Get out and actually meet some gay men. You'll see that most gay men do not like flaming queens either for the reasons I've written about, and it's got nothing to do with homophobia.

SWCube

Apr 20, 2009, 5:49 PM

You're going by the homophobic assumption or stereotype, that all men who are femme/queens will be gay when that's not the case.

I've met bisexual men who are femmey queens and they are just as flakey, fake, and as bad as the gay ones.

There are even femmey heterosexual men.

As far as comparing my viewpoints to biphobia or even homophobia, don't even go there as you can't compare the two and I've never had anyone, even a queen say that I was confused or really gay but just closeted since I came out to them as being bisexual, and I'm not being homophobic just because I don't like queens and how they act with their mind games, passive/aggressive behaviour, fake behaviour, and how they can be flat out worse at this than women are.

NJ Mac-Get out and actually meet some gay men. You'll see that most gay men do not like flaming queens either for the reasons I've written about, and it's got nothing to do with homophobia.

I can't help but notice that in many posts you have made so far you accuse someone of being homophobic, heterophobic, or stereotyping while completely denying it yourself while starting a thread stating "I hate all queens". All of your posts seem to spew hatred and intolerance. That being said, here's a few things to think about. I have known many people, gay, straight, bi, other, that are fake and when it comes down to it we all put on an act. Every person out there puts on a public face, or a family face, or a work face and no one is the same in every situation. You could just say its part of who they are or want to be but I would say the same about queens and they way they act. I have personally always allowed each person to make their own impression on me and despite having many bad experiences with one type of person, I still do not go into a situation going "Great, another one of THEM..." but thats just me.

In closing, even if NJ Mac didn't phrase it quite the way I would, I agree that this isn't the right place to be posting any kind of anti-gay or intolerant propaganda. My :2cents:

AmericanBeauty

Apr 20, 2009, 6:16 PM

I can't help but notice that in many posts you have made so far you accuse someone of being homophobic, heterophobic, or stereotyping while completely denying it yourself while starting a thread stating "I hate all queens". All of your posts seem to spew hatred and intolerance. That being said, here's a few things to think about. I have known many people, gay, straight, bi, other, that are fake and when it comes down to it we all put on an act. Every person out there puts on a public face, or a family face, or a work face and no one is the same in every situation. You could just say its part of who they are or want to be but I would say the same about queens and they way they act. I have personally always allowed each person to make their own impression on me and despite having many bad experiences with one type of person, I still do not go into a situation going "Great, another one of THEM..." but thats just me.

In closing, even if NJ Mac didn't phrase it quite the way I would, I agree that this isn't the right place to be posting any kind of anti-gay or intolerant propaganda. My :2cents:

cube-Read my posts again and keep an open mind. I don't care if you agree with me or not.

I'm not spewing hatred or anything like that, as I didn't say that I hate all queens, I just dislike how fake they are, and I think that the majority of them are total flakes, acting this way for attention, and have problems.

Most gay men don't like femme men or queens.

Lots of bisexual and gay men don't like the fact that homosexuality and bisexuality are associated with being feminine, a fake queen, or a nelly guy when it's anything but that, and those men have problems and think that because they are gay or bisexual that they have to act femme or be a total fake queen.

If you need proof just ask them, try actually going out and meeting gay people, or going into a gay bar.

What I wrote about Jamaica is true and also what I wrote about in the thread about GLBT people and having a higher incidence of mental illness and substance abuse.

What I've written about closeted bisexual and gay men is true even if people do want to deny it.

Look up the information about all of this.

allbimyself

Apr 20, 2009, 8:19 PM

A CubicZirconiaCanine by any other name smells just as nasty.

Bi-Zarro

Apr 20, 2009, 9:19 PM

"I'm not being homophobic just because I don't like queens and how they act with their mind games, passive/aggressive behaviour, fake behaviour, and how they can be flat out worse at this than women are."

What you are being is...misogynistic.

jem_is_bi

Apr 20, 2009, 11:38 PM

Actually, some of the men I've liked have been pretty "femme." So, no, it's not a problem for me at all.

(Of course, there are some Evil Queens out there, but so what?)

WOW! Do you mean the whole borough in New York!

I am a male that prefers being with other male acting men in public and in private with me. I do not know any femme men now, but I have in the past. I thought their excessive feminine behavior was overdone. But, if it made them happy, why should I object. Otherwise, they were very nice guys and always kind to me. I never felt uncomfortable being with them and occasionally doing some fun things together (never sex related). Further, my present male lover is happy with me in the aggressive dominant role and him the passive role. That adds to my happiness of being with him.

So, I agree. Stay away from those Evil Queens, New York or otherwise, and your dislike may turn to tolerance. You do not have to desire sex with someone to like him.

Long Duck Dong

Apr 21, 2009, 12:34 AM

Anyone else here dislike guys that are femme, nelly, or who would be called queens or as the British say camp men or a sissy?

I'm talking about guys who call everyone Hon or honey, sweetie, even other men, and they're your stereotypical flaming guy.

I don't like them because they are so fake and have all of the qualities that I don't like in people such as vapidness, being totally fake, way too over affectionate/sweet, and many are totally passive/aggressive and appear nice but then are really vapid, mean, untrustworthy, and two faced behind your back or towards other people even people who they consider to be their "friends".

Also these men are walking stereotypes and are just really putting on a fake act and acting this way to get attention even if it's negative attention, and it's all just a fake act they do just to get attention from everyone.

just out of interest..... what are you trying to accomplish by slamming people that you do not like

would it not be better, just to ignore them and not associate with them.... or are you trying to justify your dislike of people, by seeking others to fuel your dislike....????

you really have some issues that you are carrying around.... and if you are struggling that much with the fact that you have to share this world with people that you do not like.... then I have some bad news for you...... the rest of the world is in the same boat..... so if you feel that the world is so wrong... you have two choices, suck it up and move or..... or pluto is that way ->>>>>>>

veganbigmac

Apr 21, 2009, 3:24 AM

At American Beauty: Hey what's with the hateful language. Express your thoughts in a more diplomatic manner and they won't be dismissed and compared to neo-nazism. Secondly, you say that, "What I've written about closeted bisexual and gay men is true even if people do want to deny it. Look up the information about all of this." Perhaps if you'd lay down a link or two to back up you're post instead of just telling us to look it up, you're message would meet with more receptivity.

That aside, as for the question of femme guys being unattractive, well everybody likes different things. I like all kinds of guys, and I have yet to meet one who's too big of a queen for me to want to bed.

diamond_tether

Apr 21, 2009, 9:00 AM

Yeah, no offense, but the whole intention/idea of this thread upsets me.

You've made a generalization that truly isn't fair. You're literally saying over and over again that *everyone* who's femme is a flake or has personal problems. That's really analogous to saying every masculine guy is an honest, caring, insightful person - which also isn't true. Or that every bisexual is a greedy prick running around on a spouse. There are *plenty* of people who hear the term bisexual and equate it to a cheater or someone who's got an immature sexuality - and there's nothing you can say or do to ever convince them otherwise.

It's one thing to have strong opinions and to share them, it's another thing to try and get other people on board with sanctioning hate.

vittoria

Apr 21, 2009, 10:00 AM

I understand what the OP was TRYING to say (without pelting him with cyber stones)

and ofttimes its akin to fingernails on the chalkboard.

Everyone has their likes and dislikes. Hell some dont like uber manly women so I understand. Admittedly, some people want their men to act like men ( but fkkable :tong: ) and their women to act like women (but fkkable :tong: ).

Its all a matter of taste.

diB4u

Apr 21, 2009, 10:35 AM

I happen to like all shades on the spectrum.

People are people.

Although I am attracted to really effeminate men....

:)

;)

rissababynta

Apr 21, 2009, 12:37 PM

How about we compromise and stick with the well known "ALL men suck" :bigrin:

;)

darkeyes

Apr 21, 2009, 12:57 PM

How about we compromise and stick with the well known "ALL men suck" :bigrin:

;)In 1 way or totha Riss...def..tee hee:bigrin:

SWCube

Apr 21, 2009, 3:10 PM

In 1 way or totha Riss...def..tee hee:bigrin:

My thoughts exactly XD

hudson9

Apr 21, 2009, 6:08 PM

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

I actually avoided this thread for several days, based on the subject line I detected instant flame-war...

Everyone has things that they find attractive or unattractive. But I try to avoid applying "dislike" to entire categories, as it is an indiscriminate word, and implies an overall disapproval based on a single characteristic. Our OP only compounds this ill when he tries to justify his "dislike" by further attributing numerous negative behaviors and characteristics to "Queens, Nelly, or femme men."

This goes well beyond saying "I'm not turned on by femme men" -- it is rather, the same basis as all prejudice and bigotry -- ascribing a whole host of negative characteristics to a group of individuals based on some single or few elements of appearance.

If you only mean "femmes don't turn me on," you owe it to everyone to be more precise in your language. I suspect, however, that you did mean more than that.

allbimyself

Apr 21, 2009, 9:34 PM

Well said, hudson

M. Wolfe

Apr 21, 2009, 10:57 PM

How about we compromise and stick with the well known "ALL men suck" :bigrin:

;)

Bu-dum-Tish

void()

Apr 22, 2009, 1:17 AM

We must have children roaming our midsts. So it appears with all the finger pointing. I would hope the system administrator of the site is not forced to consider age verification of visitors. The site works as a public community for bisexual, homosexual, transforms, heterosexual people based upon some simple precepts.

1. We are all adults and thus embody some of the following:
A) maturity
B) self respect
C) common sense

2. We all seek to keep our community functional by:
A) being honorable --- not falsifying our age
B) being respectful --- respecting others even as you respect yourself
C) realizing that if you point one finger, three more point back

It would be a shame if decided to use age verification. Many would not stay. Even if they only needed to provide a credit card number for a reference check.

So please stop this thread.

cand86

Apr 22, 2009, 4:38 AM

The androphilia thing reminds me of the whole "g0y" (http://g0ys.org/initialize.htm)movement.

I'm just sayin'. I can't say I'm a fan of either.

AmberRose

Apr 22, 2009, 5:04 AM

Hi all! I'm new here.. :) I just wanted to say that I actually so like femme men. I have some femme men as friends. They are super fun!! I would rather shop with them than any of my female friends. They know style, and know how to have fun! I am all into purses, nail polishes, shopping, chatting & laughing, and the ones I have met love the same.

I didn't get a chance to read all of the replys. This is just my opinion. :)

:flag1::flag2::bibounce:

spawnvampire

Apr 22, 2009, 2:35 PM

I do not like guys like that. Imaen come on we are men. I am not saying that a guy has to be rugged and butch and so ona dn so forth. But when I have sex with a guy I want to have sex with a man. I have a beutiful wife that sleeps next to me every night. I am not into the whole top and bottom or submissive sex.:bipride:

Bi-Zarro

Apr 22, 2009, 7:10 PM

The androphilia thing reminds me of the whole "g0y" (http://g0ys.org/initialize.htm)movement.

Which I'd never seen before. After going through that site, I can't help but think "wow, these guys have some SERIOUS hang-ups."

I don't think that queer men should be obligated to be flaming queens, by any means, but really, I can't help it if a fair number of the guys I've liked have been at least somewhat swishy. And there's nothing wrong with being that way. I just don't get this "we all must be MANLY MEN" idea. I thought we all got over that essentialist gender binary thing. I wuz wrong, apparently.

I still think the late great James Baldwin got it right:

"We are all androgynous, not only because we are all born of a woman impregnated by the seed of a man but because each of us, helplessly and forever, contains the other -- male in female, female in male, white in black and black in white. We are a part of each other. Many of my countrymen appear to find this fact exceedingly inconvenient and even unfair, and so, very often, do I. But none of us can do anything about it."

jem_is_bi

Apr 22, 2009, 11:36 PM

Which I'd never seen before. After going through that site, I can't help but think "wow, these guys have some SERIOUS hang-ups."

I don't think that queer men should be obligated to be flaming queens, by any means, but really, I can't help it if a fair number of the guys I've liked have been at least somewhat swishy. And there's nothing wrong with being that way. I just don't get this "we all must be MANLY MEN" idea. I thought we all got over that essentialist gender binary thing. I wuz wrong, apparently.

I still think the late great James Baldwin got it right:

"We are all androgynous, not only because we are all born of a woman impregnated by the seed of a man but because each of us, helplessly and forever, contains the other -- male in female, female in male, white in black and black in white. We are a part of each other. Many of my countrymen appear to find this fact exceedingly inconvenient and even unfair, and so, very often, do I. But none of us can do anything about it."

The problem is that the stereotype of gay men IS the swishy guy. Which, mainsteam media and film and TV hammers home again and again to heterosexual society. So why be surprised when parents recoil in horror about the prospect of their male children becoming such swishy persons. There is nothing wrong with femme guys (gay or straight), but, they are the minority rather than the majority.
Females are wonderful. However, I do not want to be one or act like one. But, anyone who is like me is never presented as a better representation of mainstream bisexual or gay men. Instead, it is the femme gay guys that rule the media and the minds of heterosexuals. So, even though, most all of us bisexual/gay men are very male, if I would tell someone I am mostly gay, I am stuck with that stereotype (Swishy me pleasing my man and checking out all the "male equipment" in the mens locker room). Sorry, no swish by my ass for nobody and "straight male equipement" is as worthless as a dead battery!
So we do not need to change ourselves to be “real” men, nor berate the few swishy gay men, many who are nice people. Rather, that stereotype of heterosexuals needs to be eradicated. Only then will heterosexuals treated as ORDINARY men like themselves with ALL the complexity that truly means.

csrakate

Apr 23, 2009, 1:10 AM

But let us not forget that sometimes those "swishy" acting men are simply being who they are....and not putting on an act. I have a cousin who is very femme....but he's been that way for as long as I can remember, ever since we were children....and yes...he is gay....but he is also a very loving and endearing man who I respect a great deal. I'm not saying that all femme men are that way nor am I disputing that some of them are quite annoying....but we shouldn't stereotype or promote that assertion on all of them.

M. Wolfe

Apr 23, 2009, 1:26 AM

But let us not forget that sometimes those "swishy" acting men are simply being who they are....and not putting on an act. I have a cousin who is very femme....but he's been that way for as long as I can remember, ever since we were children....and yes...he is gay

They tend to be. Gender non-conformity in young boys - or sissiness is the strongest indicator of homosexuality. Although what is interesting is that gender non-conformity in girls, or tomboyness shows no correlation of lesbianism. Scientists are still scratching their heads on that one.

Raindrops+Sunshowers

Apr 23, 2009, 2:33 AM

I do want to see more variety in portrayals of gay and bi men in the mainstream, but on the other hand I never want to criticize a man for being who he is, whether that be the butchest of the butch, or femme and swishy as they come.

What is the point of speaking in such negative generalities about people? It strikes me that it's nothing more than bigotry.

Get over yourselves and just admit what you like is what you like, and what you don't prefer, is everything else. Who gives a fuck. Everyone is different. There just doesn't seem to be a need to get all anti-this or -that or put people down.

Me, personally, what I love in men is manliness, but I also like a certain softness. I love men who love men. And I love male beauty, and I love male sensuality, and good grooming! :-)

I've been attracted to pretty stoic, laconic manly men, and I've also been attracted to the femme-est men to walk the earth, who were who they were with no apologies or inhibitions.

I just love that.

Putting up artificial fenceposts is bullshit, no matter what direction it comes from.

Bi-Zarro

Apr 23, 2009, 5:04 PM

Here's a question for those who "dislike queens, nelly, or femme men": do butch dykes bother you too?

darkeyes

Apr 23, 2009, 6:28 PM

Here's a question for those who "dislike queens, nelly, or femme men": do butch dykes bother you too?Sumtimes Biz..an sumtimes me luffs it.. brill for the ego... spesh if they cute an sum r believe me:tong:.. they botha.. me flirts.. Kate frowns... tee hee:bigrin:

cand86

Apr 24, 2009, 3:06 PM

No they do not.

I think that the butch dykes that take on men's names, wear men's clothing, talk about how they have major penis envy and how they wish that they were men, and even go so far as taking hormones/Testosterone to deepen their voice should just come out as being transsexual men even if they do not want any or all of the cosmetic surgery since it would just make them a woman who has had hormones/cosmetic surgery and not a man, just a woman who has had cosmetic surgery and completely fails at being a man.

I'm trying to understand this but failing. Bi-Zarro wasn't asking about transsexual men, he was asking about butch women- i.e. the female equivalent of the camp/nelly men we were talking about. We aren't talking about transpeople who take hormones and surgery, but about people happy in their bodies, but who present themselves differently than as defined by traditional gender roles.

Also, and I would be remiss if I didn't at least mention it- that's a highly offensive, transphobic sentiment. I know plenty of cisgender men who "fail at being a man", and many transmen who are better men- embodying the wonderful, positive characteristics of maleness and masculinity- than the ones born with the Y chromosome. A penis is not what makes a man- not at the core.

Intimate_Light

Apr 24, 2009, 3:39 PM

I agree with those with the wider human view:

--- Each gender, each socioeconomic stratum and every orientation (including every shade between hetero to gay/lesbian) has its share of honorably self-aware to totally jackass behavior. They just wear or show through the particular colors of expression unique to their own cultures and subcultures.

Bi-Zarro

Apr 24, 2009, 5:57 PM

I'm trying to understand this but failing. Bi-Zarro wasn't asking about transsexual men, he was asking about butch women- i.e. the female equivalent of the camp/nelly men we were talking about. We aren't talking about transpeople who take hormones and surgery, but about people happy in their bodies, but who present themselves differently than as defined by traditional gender roles.

Also, and I would be remiss if I didn't at least mention it- that's a highly offensive, transphobic sentiment. I know plenty of cisgender men who "fail at being a man", and many transmen who are better men- embodying the wonderful, positive characteristics of maleness and masculinity- than the ones born with the Y chromosome. A penis is not what makes a man- not at the core.

What she said.

Fire Lotus

Apr 24, 2009, 11:37 PM

Sorry those women can get all the surgery, hormones, and try to be masculine but they fail at it since they are really women are not biological men, and have no idea what it is like to be a man or masculine at all and they are just aping/imitating real masculinity and completely failing at it just like femme men fail at being masculine..

You keep coming back to trans people. That has nothing to do with butch dyke women. I've known some butch lesbians and sure they may come off a bit masculine, whether it be in appearance or personality. But that doesn't mean they want to be men. That's just their nature.

Why are you asking me this? I'm not sexually attracted to any women at all dykes, straight women, or even women who have cosmetically altered their bodies to try to be men do not arouse me.

I believe the question wasn't directed to only you, but to everyone on the board. Lighten up a bit, would ya?

12voltman59

Apr 25, 2009, 12:38 AM

It is sort of interesting the dynamics at work in what we are talking about--swishy men and butchy-bull dykes.

I have seen extreme examples of both----I had this one young woman on my probation caseload in Florida---I never did really know where she fit into things--but she was part of an extended lesbian "family."

She was very ultra feminine---while the leader of this "family" was the stereotypical bull dyke from Central Casting---she rode a Harley, had plenty of tatts, had a "burr haircut" as we used to call them when I was a kid-----she also drove a big, bad assed dually diesel pickup truck--listened to hard edge country western like David Allen Coe---they had a place out in the country with horses and some cattle-----the head dyke owned and operated a machine/welding/fabricating shop--did damn good work too boot--I know since I have been around that kind of thing since I was young too-----and to top it all off---she liked to be called "Big Daddy!"

I do have to say--I am not a fan of flaming queens---but I don't make sweeping generalizations about them---like most people---both a "bull dyke" like "Big Daddy" and "flamer" guys---you do need to see what kind of people they really are underneath their exterior--just like with anyone else.

I do try to hold as best I can to another famous line of Dr. MLK, Jr. (somewhat modified)---I try to judge people based on the quality of character--not their skin color, gender identity or other external factors. I don't always hold to that---but I sure try to keep it in mind and hold to it as best I can.

Once I got passed the gruff exterior of "Big Daddy"--she was a decent person---she was concerned that "her little girl" had gotten in trouble with the law---as well as developed a substance abuse problem. "Big Daddy" was very helpful in helping me reach this young woman to try to get her to get her problems corrected.

"Big Daddy" sure made certain that "little honey" always reported to me in a timely fashion--paid all of her required fines, court costs, cost of supervision, and went to drug treatment among the various conditions of probation this "client" was supposed to fulfill.

I wished that all of my cases had someone who so cared about them and tried to make sure they followed the "straight and narrow" while on probation. It sure woulda made that job easier---not perfect--but at least somewhat easier!!!!

When it came to swishy, flamer guys---I saw plenty of them growing up in Savannah, Ga---we had tons of 'em--along with the blond, rich, yuppie uber, pretty gay boys that seemed to be a big flavor of gay in "Ye Olde Savannah!"

They were kinda funny to me I have to say----

The thing was---to me---they sorta bugged me then--but I think I bugged them more than they bugged me---it seemed that as a rule, they were not that nice to me when I crossed paths with them--but I tried to be nice to them---I didn't do or say anything negative to them---I'd wait on them just like anyone else in the various jobs I had in those days ranging from working at Belks or other retail outlets, being a food server or bartender or whatever.

They did not seem like they were very happy or pleasant people--they didn't treat me all that kindly, even though I always tried to be nice and polite to them----or at least civil.

rissababynta

Apr 25, 2009, 9:31 AM

I think this thread has gone nuts a lil bit...

Intimate_Light

Apr 25, 2009, 1:57 PM

I think this thread has gone nuts a lil bit...

I kind of agree.

It really comes down to out own projections, insecurities, innate chemistry wiring, likes and dislikes and other factors. To take your "Skinny is 4 Punks" signature, I happen to be a skinny/slim who likes same, male or female. Not into BBW or BBM, or even muscular or butch, etc.

Does that really make me a punk?

If you read the general spirit of my posts, I think not. Do I feel a bit guilty that I have this preference -- honestly? Yeah, but I've tried to "transcend" and it hasn't worked. I'm also self-aware enough as to why I like this kind of biosuit, and I can either glorify it, denigrate myself for it or just accept it.

In short, as the wise man Popeye sez, "I yam whud I yam." For better or for worse.

Same goes for all of us with these issues of liking or not liking types of gay or bi behavior or demeanors (or coping mechanisms). Having preferences is natural and fine as long as some modicum of gracious "live and let live" is present too.

It's when we start bashing or making others wrong for what he or she prefers where one tips into being a punk. It's also healthy to have a sense of humor and not to take oneself to seriously either.

And I'm still working on that last one - lol.

Bi-Zarro

Apr 25, 2009, 3:41 PM

I kind of agree.

It really comes down to out own projections, insecurities, innate chemistry wiring, likes and dislikes and other factors. To take your "Skinny is 4 Punks" signature, I happen to be a skinny/slim who likes same, male or female. Not into BBW or BBM, or even muscular or butch, etc.

Does that really make me a punk?

Nah. Just means you're takin' Rissa's sig a wee bit too seriously. :tong:

Fire Lotus

Apr 25, 2009, 4:12 PM

Skinny is for punks

So now we're bringing music genres into this? :tongue:

IndyBiFun

Apr 25, 2009, 5:59 PM

Personally, I like femme guys and queens. I think many are fun and sexy. Of course the same can be said for some non-femme types too.

rissababynta

Apr 25, 2009, 6:54 PM

Nah. Just means you're takin' Rissa's sig a wee bit too seriously. :tong:

Lol yup.

And yes, it does make you a punk you damn little twig.

I kid, I kid tee hee:bigrin:

Intimate_Light

Apr 26, 2009, 2:40 PM

Yup, this thread has tipped into wacky. And I walked right into it :bigrin:

darkeyes

Apr 26, 2009, 2:57 PM

Yup, this thread has tipped into wacky. And I walked right into it :bigrin:

Wots new in .com huh?;)

AdamKadmon43

Apr 26, 2009, 7:28 PM

How about we compromise and stick with the well known "ALL men suck" :bigrin:
;)

Yes... that is probably true.... but some of us suck better than others.

BrotherJack

Apr 27, 2009, 1:02 AM

Yes... that is probably true.... but some of us suck better than others.

Well, you don't fit the title of the thread....not being a queen, a nelly or a femme. Infact you told me you didn't like men like that, so I guess the opposite applies, when it comes to women.......ie...you don't like them butch!

And IF you are bisexual....which one can't tell by your posts, then you have said that you are not a sucker...but a suckee!!! We won't talk about the other thing......although you may have been a sucker at one point in your life...but we won't mention new Orleans.

BrotherJack

Apr 27, 2009, 3:55 PM

Jack-Why are you so mean to Adam?

I saw your other thread that got locked about Adam and you claim that Adam is a bad person but your posts have shown you're a thousand times worse than he is when it comes to lies, gossip, and spreading pointless drama.

I tell no lies..........so don't libel me! I never gossip.........so don't libel me there and if you want to give me three years of your time, I will explain exactly what makes me angry about Adam's lies and bad treatment of people. You have naturally assumed that Adam is bisexual.....he may be....he may not...that does not matter...lies and his insults do!

I have never said Adam is a bad person....quote me! He can actually be a very good person...very good...libel again!

''your posts have shown you're a thousand times worse than he is when it comes to lies''

Please quote my lies....please do and then tell me what the truth is...OK! If you can't quote my ''lies'' and what you know to be the ''truth''......then don't call me a liar.

I know the man....you do not!

I don't like him lying to or insulting anyone...regardless of race, creed, colour and sexuality!!

cand86

May 3, 2009, 3:21 AM

I thought this thread had died. I mean, I'd already said "Ashes to ashes" and everything.

Can't we let it rest in peace?

Hazzardous

May 3, 2009, 7:06 AM

This is my first post on this site, so I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes by saying this, but I disagree with the assertion that everyone who acts in any way "feminine" is faking it. Personally, I'm bisexual and I tend to act in a way that's generally considered "acceptable" for men in modern western society (even if I am a bit eccentric :bigrin:). However, I know a guy that acts pretty "femme" if you will who is strongly and exclusively attracted to women. I honestly believe that whether a certain action is considered masculine or feminine is entirely a product of society or, at best, a long outdated behavior pattern that may have served some purpose for survival when there were approximately 500 people on the planet but that has long since outlived its usefulness. Either way, I don't evaluate my actions based on whether they'll be perceived as masculine or feminine by those around me.

I do what I want, when I want. :cool:

Edit: Oops... I didn't see any posts after the first page until I posted this. Sorry. I need to pay closer attention.

catalyst

May 3, 2009, 9:50 AM

I come to this forum for acceptance
and I approach others this way
perhaps for some people acting or experimenting with their identity is part of their journey - I salute them
maybe some environments are more bitchy but you cant categorize people as a group, that would be like saying all women.....
I come from Brighton UK and I find alot of these comments against femmes, butch dykes etc and who owns masculinity and femminity really suprising for a bi forum

arent we meant to be tolerant of other people's pleasure and self acceptance if it does no harm to others
the more colours on a flag the better

also am reading leather daddy and the femme for the first time from the library and even though in reality it wouldnt be my cup of tea, it intrigues me and its just another arena that works for some people - horses for courses or as leather daddy would probably reply:

'I answer to faggot and gay male and leatherman and all those names, but if answering to a name means I cant do something I decide I want to do, fuck it. And if someone wants to give me shit for what I do, its theirproblem.'

another favourite when he finds out randy is miranda is:
'youre too much for most people, aren't you Randy-Miranda? Just to queer. What do you think, I'm gonna decide I dont want my dick to smell like fish?.. Child, any faggot who'd kick a love goddess with a big dick out of bed is insane. I dont care what anybody sayss. I dont give a fuck that your a girl. '

cat xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

rissababynta

May 4, 2009, 10:25 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyqUj3PGHv4

darkeyes

May 4, 2009, 8:03 PM

cand86

Dec 15, 2009, 10:54 PM

I couldn't find this video when I posted way back when, but now that I've found it again and the thread has resurfaced, it seems the perfect time to post this lil' short film (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqR687yBhSI).

MarieDelta

Dec 16, 2009, 3:00 AM

I love it, cand86!

Cracked me up!

djones

Dec 16, 2009, 3:16 AM

A really femme or queenie guy wouldn't turn me on, but so what. If guy is intelligent, nice, and friendly, being femme -affectation or otherwise - is no reason i can't be friends with him.

Not every person is meant to act like the gender "norm", and not every person is meant to make me horny.

I hope that on a site like this, more people are accepting of life's differences than out in the world at large.

Vive la differance !

tenni

Dec 16, 2009, 10:36 AM

Sorry Cand86 but I found that video "this lil short thing" to be rather bad if not disgusting. Regardless of a person not wanting to be with a femme doesn't give femmes the right to treat that guy the way that they did. Sorry, but I think that it indicates a rather sick mind on the part of the two femme guys unless I missed something at the beginning to contexualize it. The victim,(yes he was a victim) was humiliated and tied up fer kris sake then pushed out the door into the street dressed as a woman with his ass hang'n out naked. They need to learn a few lessons about how to treat others with respect before they attempt to "teach" anyone anything. However, the ending was even a bit sicker.

Anyway, after contexualizing the above, I do have a very good friend who is rather nelly. In some respects, he is more eccentric than nelly with his mannerisms. I guess that I'm use to him but at times I'm a bit embarassed with his hand movements. He is extremely bright and a really good friend. I don't think that he is queeny at all. I'm not attracted to such guys though. Other than my friend, I would not seek out their friendship or intimacy. I find most rather shallow human beings and full of pretension. My friend may be a bit nelly but he is genuine and a caring individual who has no time for such pretentious types either.

the sacred night

Dec 17, 2009, 7:44 PM