How Real is Responsibility? [Archive]

bipoly.org

Mar 14, 2006, 12:25 AM

[please read through before reacting...]

I've run across women who breed without the informed consent of their male partners by lying about birth control to the men. I've run across men who lie and say they are fixed, or can't use condoms. I've seen both sexes using children as a source of income from the state. I've seen people marry to get money from their families. In short, I've seen a great deal of irresponsibility, and not much of its polar positive.

Many of these people were married, some on the 3rd or 4th marriage, and of course we all know the statistics about marriage and the success rates. Most fail. I'm a divorced custodial father who's actually friends with his ex, and I get support from her. When she didn't pay, she didn't get arrested, rather I was told "Why don't you just get a job?" even though I was employed at the time.

I know of multiple persons who owe tens of thousands in support to children on public support, of both sexes, and I can't see how even the occasional arrest forces them to change and be responsible. It hasn't occurred even once in all the cases I know of personally. Some of them brag about how much jail time they've done. It's shocking.

Even the good 'families', the microsloth millionaires, they have divorce, custody battles, and then you see an executive leave the country to avoid astronomical court appointed payments.

I don't see these things happen in poly families.

I've always financially supported all children who are under my roof, even temporarily. My mate and I are setting up another CD in the bank for our new relationship. I have two CDs already for my own kids. Most of my poly friends are chiding me to set up a trust fund for the CD earnings.

We poly people actually care about the kids, even the kids which were sired or damed by other people we've never met, and isn't that responsibility?

One of my barely-known poly friends has decided to promote me within the company and use the friends-network to improve my career so that I can support MORE children that others have 'fathered.'

Poly people everywhere seem to nod their heads knowingly when I bitch that not only is monogamy a farce with no historical relevance, but at no point in time has it ever really BEEN monogamy, and at all points in time, the children are the ones who pay the price of this great lie.

Every discussion about poly is offset by someone who insists that poly isn't valid, or real, or successful, or that it's an artificial construct of sex addicts, or whatnot. In truth, all those statements are more accurately posited against monogamy.

"Serial monogamy" is the slang we poly folks use when we mention the mono folks who critique us without understanding us. Most of our fiercest critics are twice divorced.

In the typical end of a monogamous marriage, which is divorce and not death, the children become the focal point of an expensive and devastating tug of war of revenge.

In the typical end of a polygamous relationship, the children are set for life with additional funds, and continued contact and relation with extended family, all as set down in financial agreements and parenting plans. For example: A triad ends with one person moving on, but the funds for thier children are still secure, and the child is not only unharmed, but perhaps even bettered. They've just learned how to deal with closure in a mature manner.

What is the point of marriage if not responsibility towards the family, and by family I mean the children? Marriage guarantees nothing, except probably a divorce, and there is no stipulation for financial security. Only premarital agreements, trust funds, and parenting plans devised prior to marriage have any solidity when the marriage ends.

Hardly anyone does that. In fact, I'd wager that most are done as a part of a court battle or divorce. Poly people can't get married. As such, we can't get divorced either. That's more positive than first glance would give you cause to believe.

D

OralBradley

Mar 14, 2006, 1:53 AM

I think that responsibility is an attitude that must be inculcated from birth. Unfortunately, very few contemorary parents ever experienced the concept from their own parents and cannot pass the concept on to their progeny. Egoism, avarice, abd rudeness seem to be the essential attributes of our current society--and it's global, not just American.

ambi53mm

Mar 14, 2006, 2:12 AM

Hi D,
I would agree that there is plenty of irresponsibility to go around at all levels when it comes to the needs and responsibilities of children. We have an irresponsible government with an irresponsible system, run by irresponsible bureaucrats for its’ irresponsible citizens. There are extremes at both ends of the scale that include those that are very responsible to those that are very irresponsible and all the varying levels of responsibility in between. Within both communities whether engaging in the practice of polygamy or monogamy, I’m sure there exists those same extremes with all it’s variations in between as well ,and many cases that would statistically support either.
I know a man in a monogamous relationship, devoted to his wife, with three adopted children that he provides for, that is in the process of adopting three more fatherless and motherless children. He is not only responsible for those children at a financial level but loves those children unconditionally providing them with the one thing that all children need, the need to be loved and nurtured.
I see nothing wrong with monogamy or marriage and Yes, many of us don’t get it right the first time or sometimes even the second time. Marriage as an institution for the sole purpose of procreation is not in my opinion a true marriage. Marriage at its’ deepest level is a spiritual commitment between people, be it two in my case or more in your case. Anything else is a matter of interpretation based on civil law or antiquated belief systems.
This is my opinion and I can only take responsibility for my opinion. I really enjoyed your post and think it will make an interesting thread.

Ambi :)

Mimi

Mar 14, 2006, 2:58 AM

I certainly value responsibility, and I also value monogamy. There are plenty of monogamous people who are responsible to their partners (such as myself), just like poly people. On the flip side, there are also plenty of irresponsible monogamous people AND ALSO irresponsible poly people. Let's not stereotype and say that being poly is the world's "ideal." Bisexuality is also not necessarily the world's "ideal." Being poly or being bi works for some and not everyone.

The high divorce rate in this nation, to me, comes from people rushing into marriage too fast, an overly romanticized notion of marriage ("if he/she makes my heart pump this fast then they must be THE ONE for me"), an overly individualized culture ("me me me"), which then keeps getting repeated from one generation to the next.

The idea of an extended family network, to me, makes a lot of sense in terms of raising children. I would ideally like to get married and then live in an adjoining house set-up with my siblings and their families, or some close friends and their families. I think the nuclear family idea really does not work and keeps people isolated. "It takes an entire village to raise a child."

Mimi :nrrdgrrl:

csrakate

Mar 14, 2006, 5:04 AM

Poly people everywhere seem to nod their heads knowingly when I bitch that not only is monogamy a farce with no historical relevance, but at no point in time has it ever really BEEN monogamy, and at all points in time, the children are the ones who pay the price of this great lie.

In the typical end of a monogamous marriage, which is divorce and not death, the children become the focal point of an expensive and devastating tug of war of revenge.

What is the point of marriage if not responsibility towards the family, and by family I mean the children? Marriage guarantees nothing, except probably a divorce, and there is no stipulation for financial security.

D

OK...I have always been one to live and let live. I do not feel it is my place to sit in judgement of anyone's choice of lifestyle nor do I feel I have the right to criticize another for that choice. But I can not and will not sit quietly as you perpetuate this myth that marriage and monogamy are nothing but shams!

In other words...what a crock of shit!!! If you want to validate your choice for living as you do, do NOT do so by claiming that the rest of us are crazy and misguided. You are correct when you stated that very often kids get the brunt of bad marriages...that the parents use them as pawns in a game that they play to get the other spouse to concede in the battle for the almighty dollar. But your blanket statements are offensive and can not be applied to all marriages or to the attitudes of married people towards their kids and their well being.

I have no problem with your choice of living as you do...I applaud you for taking responsibility for all those concerned...but in that same light, I think you should extend the same courtesy to those of us who have chosen marriage..and yes...MONOGAMY and perhaps realize that within any group, there are bad examples..but those examples do not speak for the group as a whole!

Just my :2cents:

Hugs,
Kate

rupertbare

Mar 14, 2006, 6:45 AM

OK here goes my :2cents: !!

But firstly - I agree 100% with mimi - "it takes a whole village to raise a kid"
And that, as an ideal, is how it should be - we in the West have much to learn from Africa and the Far East in this respect.

I also agree that we, today, "rush" into marriage - we don't think it through enough. And there is little sign of true "commitment" or desire to "work things out"

I like this thread and liked the thought that went into the original, opening, post. Thank you for this.

I'm not really going to "comment" - just tell my "story".

My first marriage - we were kids (17 & 21) - we "grew up" together and grew apart.

My second marriage was a "love" job. We were mature(ish) (37 and 38)
I was sterile, which my wife knew about at the time.
I had a vasectomy reversal and we were blessed with two children (and lost two - so four really).
Now we are seperated. And my wife has cancelled all of my "direct debits" - gas company, house insurance and telephone/broadband bills. I didn't ask her to do this and am rather hurt that she did. As I now have no contact with either my wife or two children I am not in a posistion to financially support them, even though I wish to do so.

Although a bi man I stayed monogomous and faithful throughout our 15-and-a-half years of marriage.

So that's it - all I wish to contribute.

I look forward to how and where we go with this thread.

With love to you and yours

Rupe, London, UK. :)

slipperin

Mar 14, 2006, 10:13 AM

this is interesting why does everyone have to do the same thing when they split?? all people are different and everyone has a choice to how a seperation goes. Sometimes people just want a clean split and dissappear! Some cling onto the past and hope all will get better! Some even manage to work "together"!!!The main concern is that the relationship however it goes is working with the children in all the crap that goes round a relationship when so called 'KNOWING' adults split! If all the people in the world were the same life would be oh so boring????
But saying that if you have kids you should be responsible till they are at least 18 what ever the kids might say?? They all need a structure and I guess without financial support of some sort they might, depending on the parent they are left with , go without!! That is of course in my opinion that the missing parent can afford to contribute, a lot of these people have enough trouble supporting themselves in there own world eh ??

Driver 8

Mar 14, 2006, 11:35 AM

I agree (if I read you right, bipoly) that many monogamous relationships are far from perfect. I can certainly say that for the past few years I've been heartily sick of straight people who I know are divorced or have been unfaithful claiming that same-sex marriage will cheapen marriage for straight people.

On the other hand, I'm not convinced that the poly world is half so perfect as its proponents make it out to be. I've seen poly people walk away from their own biological children because their sexual and romantic relationship with the other parent wasn't everything they wanted. (I'm also reminded of a huge blowup on the old alt.polyamory community, where one woman's birth control failed, her male partner - a longtime poly activist - announced that he felt no responsibility for the resulting child, and the general attitude of the community towards the woman who found herself dumped and unwilling to abort was "That's your problem, not ours.")

The problem isn't monogamy or polygamy. The problem is irresponsibility. And re-arranging your romantic life to fit one structure or the other won't necessarily make you more responsible.

PeterH

Mar 14, 2006, 1:18 PM

Dear D and others,

I hesitate to enter my ideas in a debate about marriage, something I have no experience with myself. I also have read some very wise comments by others who do, including Driver and Kate, so I add my thoughts with the utmost carefulness.
First of all, I think this thread is a very important one, and is relevant to an important aspect of being bi, so I am glad, bipoly, that you started it. However, I am also concerned by the way how it's being discussed.
Bipoly, I get the impression that you started this thread, because you feel a certain resentment towards the institution of monogamous marriage, because it does allow irresponsible people to get married and have a certain social status, while it excludes responsible people in poly relationships. And I agree that people should take great care in entering marriage, and that people should be judged based on how they live their lives. I would like not to make comments on poly relationships here, as I don't know anybody who has one, and I've read varying views on how well the work in this thread. I am definitely not against them per se (and actually have started a thread discussing, a.o., one option for a poly relationship).
I get the impression that you would like society to be more accepting of your poly relationship. And I do believe that showing that they work, and that they can provide a good home for children is one of the best ways to change people's views. It seems to work in your case, and I respect you for the responsibility you take for it, and am actually quite interested in how you do that, and what it involves.

What saddens me however, is that your writing comes across as being against everybody who is in a monogamous marriage. Now, again, I am not married myself, and never have been, but it seems to me that some people I know are very happy in their marriage, and I know they also intend those marriages to be monogamous, and are aware of how difficult that is. I also know from my own experience how hard it is to make a relationship work, and have seen some relationships where I got the impression that it was best for all parties involved that they ended.
So bipoly, I am sorry to say that I feel that you have expressed yourself dispresepctfully towards people who believe in the instute of marriage, and in monogamy. I ask you to please be more respectful towards the institute of marriage, and those who choose monogamy. One of the reasons that relationships break up is that partners stop treating each other with respect. And showing respect is not something that should be limited to one's partners. In fact, I have found that practising it in the outside world is excellent practise for a relationship as well. Reading some of the responses here, I get the impression that you did offend some people here, and I think an apology would be in place.
Another, minor, point is that when you talk about taking care of the children, in case a relationship should break up, you seem to talk mainly about the legal and financial side (I don't know what a CD is, to be honest, but assume it's a legal / financial arrangement). I agree that making some arrangements for worst-case scenarios is helpful, but they do not assure that children will be loved, or will be raised properly, or that their parents show them how to lead a good life, by example. Just to make sure: I don't say that you don't do any of these things, just that you don't write about them as much.

To conclude with, I'd like to present my feelings on the mono/poly matter. I think that monogamy is best for mono people, poly relationships could be good for ppl who are bi, and being faithful is best for all. But there's one concern with poly relationships, and that is that they can cause a gender imbalance in the 'relationship market', meaning that there will be more single young women, than single young men, or vice versa. I have this concern because statistics seem to show big problems occuring in countries where men are allowed to be polygamous (higher crime rates, including rape), which is something I would not like to see in society.

Bipoly, I thank you for starting this interesting thread.
All the best, PeterH

PeterH

Mar 14, 2006, 1:19 PM

Dear D and others,

I hesitate to enter my ideas in a debate about marriage, something I have no experience with myself. I also have read some very wise comments by others who do, including Driver and Kate, so I add my thoughts with the utmost carefulness.
First of all, I think this thread is a very important one, and is relevant to an important aspect of being bi, so I am glad, bipoly, that you started it. However, I am also concerned by the way how it's being discussed.
Bipoly, I get the impression that you started this thread, because you feel a certain resentment towards the institution of monogamous marriage, because it does allow irresponsible people to get married and have a certain social status, while it excludes responsible people in poly relationships. And I agree that people should take great care in entering marriage, and that people should be judged based on how they live their lives. I would like not to make comments on poly relationships here, as I don't know anybody who has one, and I've read varying views on how well the work in this thread. I am definitely not against them per se (and actually have started a thread discussing, a.o., one option for a poly relationship).
I get the impression that you would like society to be more accepting of your poly relationship. And I do believe that showing that they work, and that they can provide a good home for children is one of the best ways to change people's views. It seems to work in your case, and I respect you for the responsibility you take for it, and am actually quite interested in how you do that, and what it involves.

What saddens me however, is that your writing comes across as being against everybody who is in a monogamous marriage. Now, again, I am not married myself, and never have been, but it seems to me that some people I know are very happy in their marriage, and I know they also intend those marriages to be monogamous, and are aware of how difficult that is. I also know from my own experience how hard it is to make a relationship work, and have seen some relationships where I got the impression that it was best for all parties involved that they ended.
So bipoly, I am sorry to say that I feel that you have expressed yourself dispresepctfully towards people who believe in the instute of marriage, and in monogamy. I ask you to please be more respectful towards the institute of marriage, and those who choose monogamy. One of the reasons that relationships break up is that partners stop treating each other with respect. And showing respect is not something that should be limited to one's partners. In fact, I have found that practising it in the outside world is excellent practise for a relationship as well. Reading some of the responses here, I get the impression that you did offend some people here, and I think an apology would be in place.
Another, minor, point is that when you talk about taking care of the children, in case a relationship should break up, you seem to talk mainly about the legal and financial side (I don't know what a CD is, to be honest, but assume it's a legal / financial arrangement). I agree that making some arrangements for worst-case scenarios is helpful, but they do not assure that children will be loved, or will be raised properly, or that their parents show them how to lead a good life, by example. Just to make sure: I don't say that you don't do any of these things, just that you don't write about them as much.

To conclude, I'd like to present my feelings on the mono/poly matter. I think that monogamy is best for mono people, poly relationships could be good for ppl who are bi, and being faithful is best for all. But there's one concern with poly relationships, and that is that they can cause a gender imbalance in the 'relationship market', meaning that there will be more single young women, than single young men, or vice versa. I have this concern because statistics seem to show big problems occuring in countries where men are allowed to be polygamous (higher crime rates, including rape), which is something I would not like to see in society.

D, I thank you for starting this interesting thread.
All the best, PeterH

csrakate

Mar 14, 2006, 6:22 PM

Very well said Peter! You hit the nail on the head when you call for respecting the choices made by others. Like I said, I have no issues with the poly lifestyle if that is what someone chooses but don't validate that choice by spouting generalizations about alternate lifestyles with ill founded facts and unsubstantiated claims. D, it seems you to want to prove that children in a poly lifestyle are better provided for and while I find it admirable that you seem to place a great deal of importance in providing for your progeny, financial support is not the be all, end all to happiness. In addition, you seem to be leaving out some very importance aspects of child raising and I implore you to look beyond the obvious and delve into the true heart of raising a child.

"In the typical end of a monogamous marriage, which is divorce and not death, the children become the focal point of an expensive and devastating tug of war of revenge.

In the typical end of a polygamous relationship, the children are set for life with additional funds, and continued contact and relation with extended family, all as set down in financial agreements and parenting plans. For example: A triad ends with one person moving on, but the funds for their children are still secure, and the child is not only unharmed, but perhaps even bettered. They've just learned how to deal with closure in a mature manner."

Raising a child is not a business venture...financial agreements and parenting plans may look good on paper but the parent/child relationship is much more complex and the success of that relationship can not be assured with well developed plans. Children need structure and they need stability but more than anything, they need security in knowing that a parent is there for them regardless of the outcome of a marriage. Yes…many marriages do end with a nasty divorce and sometimes the children are badly affected, but do all of these “triads” that you refer to end devoid of emotion? I find it difficult to believe that children are "bettered" by learning to deal with parenting figures that drift in and out of their lives so cavalierly. It is easy to say that it is "closure in a mature manner", but what about feelings of abandonment in the loss of yet another parental figure...what about confusion as to who is going to stay and who is going to go next? I'm sorry...I really don't mean to judge, but you have not addressed those feelings and I feel that to ignore that is not only unfair to the children but very naive on your part.

And as for the monogamous marriage that you claim is a myth, I have been in a monogamous marriage for 25 years, a marriage that has produced two sons that we are very proud of. My husband and I have worked hard to provide financially for our kids but we have also worked very hard to instill life values including a sense of responsibility, a sense of conscience, a sense of belonging and a sense of security. In addition, they have learned to have mutual love and respect for others. We have stood by them throughout the formative years, nurtured them step by step and now that they are older and preparing to embark on their own life experiences, we are able to sit back and watch with love and pride as they go into the world as healthy and well adjusted adults. They know that we will continue to be here for them, but they also know that it is their turn to put into practice what they have learned in life and lucky for us, they feel secure with that knowledge.

Like I said before, I don’t judge you for the way you choose to live your life, nor am I touting my way of life as the only way. All I ask is that you give people who live differently the respect they deserve.

Yet another :2cents:

Hugs,
Kate

ddbmma

Mar 14, 2006, 6:58 PM

"The high divorce rate in this nation, to me, comes from people rushing into marriage too fast, an overly romanticized notion of marriage ("if he/she makes my heart pump this fast then they must be THE ONE for me"), an overly individualized culture ("me me me"), which then keeps getting repeated from one generation to the next."

I know this may be a bit off track of the subject at first. It gets to a few points on the subject, though so please do enjoy a senic detour. I saw the above and contemplated the word 'me'. This is something one does when they work with logo, or the word/s.

There's no secret here to what efforts I've put in this past year to lay fertile grounds to attain. I seek to be a career author. Pardon any errors of mechanics here. I'm running on my normal four out of twenty four of sleep. Simply put I write, let an editor keep their job. I create worlds of fiction for readers to wander through and explore with characters.

While locked in contemplation over the word me, it dawned in my little remaining pea of a brain that current research tripped over that word. In building worlds it's often good to look at ours to see how they are created. Part of that involves history, mythology and vices regarding information you would probably be far better suited not knowing. So it was found in the Sumerian era.

There was an El or deity as was the Ugaric word for it, in that time named Enki, who is also Ea if you care to dash about the ward a bit. At any given this deity called Enki was touted as being the first succesful manager. He used tablets of desity / fate which contained the secrets of the known infinite universes and probably some unknown ones to boot.

Enki was found of doling out tasks for the newly created pets of the gods, mankind. But this cuased all sorts of headaches for everyone. "Hey Joe over there just took an tract of my land and made it into a dam. Who does he think he is?" So Enki being the wise and cunning deity he was found a system of dealing with hassles such as these.

He broke off bits of his sacred tablets as he doled out tasks. "Here, take this to a guy over near the mountain and gather wood for fire. If he asks who told you to do this, give him the Me. It is a piece of my tablets you see, and that guy will know it was me who suggested getting wood there. Me, Enki told you to do it." This probably was how the notion of currency came into play.

Now, how does it tie back into the current thread? Simple enough really when you consider song lyrics by either Kansas or Queensryche. "All we are is dust in the wind ..." I'm sure probably most of us are familar with that tune. That is the outlook I hold of life. Within this limited view there is no 'owning' people or anything for that matter. That does not imply, though one way or view is any better than another. Nor does it state I'm single, or unhappily married.

I am happily married to a great lady who understands sometimes I just need to curl up in guy's arms. If there's sex involved, great if not that can be great, too. Is the lady I married, me? No, not in any sense. But she also is me, we've enjoyed nearly a decade together and plan on many more. We are an open couple with the use of care and discretion. Therein lies responsibility. It is a quite real beast.

Not everyone can appreciate that as I've had a chance to learn. Well, I better scoot. I've already blown my :2cents: . Thought you guys might appreciate learning of one view on the word 'me'. We all see the same two letters, but each of us draws our own inferences. No one can be correct if all are mistaken, nor can all be mistaken if one is correct.

Lisa (va)

Mar 15, 2006, 3:05 AM

Maybe I am not getting the point of your thread. Are your saying the only way to be responsible is top be poly?

I've read you thread multiple times, and still find it a bit 'my way is the best'.

If it works for you (and your partners) more power to you and the best of luck in your life.

Your thread left me with unanswered questions like:
Is 'moving on' so much different than a divorce, seems like neither of them are ended by death.
Setting up 2 CD's for your "own" kids, what about all the others that where under your roof, even temporarily. Most folks I know wish a better life for their children (married or not, poly or not), but there is much more to raising a child than pure finances.

To insinuate that children are only cared for in poly relationships isn't very responsible either: making generalizations like you have.
For every poly realtionship you say is working, I am sure there is one somewhere that isn't, the same can be said about marriages (and monogamy).
For every deadbeat dad I'm sure you can find one that is devoted and loving to his children.

Basically as Kate mentioned, I too am not, nor will ever, judge a persons choice. But I honestly don't see the connection between responsibility and poly, living together, open marriage or monogamous marriage.

Lisa
hugs n kisses

Fresia

Apr 8, 2015, 5:40 PM

Bump it up!

charles-smythe

Apr 8, 2015, 10:58 PM

Annika L

Apr 9, 2015, 1:48 AM

...I think since she's the one who gets pregnant...birth control should be up to the female...if she gets pregnant its on her...if the law wants to hold the man responsible...then if the female wants a divorce she should need the father's consent...

...I think since she's the one who gets pregnant...birth control should be up to the male...if she gets pregnant its on him

No, seriously, it takes two to tango. If it was consensual sex and it was consensual that birth control was not used, then they are jointly responsible. If one of them lied or misrepresented the situation, they that person is in the wrong...the wronged party (male or female) does have some level of responsibility, but the liar definitely bears the brunt of the responsibility both for the outcome and for any difficulty caused to the wronged party.

But just as seriously...Charlie? She doesn't "get pregnant". Somebody impregnates her. She was born with eggs...that does not make her responsible for whatever some guy chooses to do. But if she participates in the choice, then yes, she also bears at least some level of responsibility...as well as the child.

pole_smoker

Apr 9, 2015, 2:05 AM

LMAO!

"Polyamory" now that's a total recipe for disaster, breaking people up, not bringing them together, and some Jim Jones Peoples Temple shit with everyone cheating on each other and being driven apart, and ultimately breaking up.

Yeah rules and boundaries may be set up but eventually someone will get jealous, hurt, or break those rules.

In all my decades of seeing humans and the temporary sexual configurations they get into or are sometimes forced into by a partner, I have yet to ever see a "relationship" between multiple people actually work out or last, where someone didn't get hurt or feel left out, and where one person didn't wind up cheating or breaking the rules set up.

charles-smythe

Apr 9, 2015, 11:32 AM

...I think since she's the one who gets pregnant...birth control should be up to the male...if she gets pregnant its on him

No, seriously, it takes two to tango. If it was consensual sex and it was consensual that birth control was not used, then they are jointly responsible. If one of them lied or misrepresented the situation, they that person is in the wrong...the wronged party (male or female) does have some level of responsibility, but the liar definitely bears the brunt of the responsibility both for the outcome and for any difficulty caused to the wronged party.

But just as seriously...Charlie? She doesn't "get pregnant". Somebody impregnates her. She was born with eggs...that does not make her responsible for whatever some guy chooses to do. But if she participates in the choice, then yes, she also bears at least some level of responsibility...as well as the child....if a girl doesn't take precautions its on her...

pole_smoker

Apr 9, 2015, 4:17 PM

...if a girl doesn't take precautions its on her...
Indeed. That's how it works in something called reality, or real life.

A woman gets pregnant with one or more kids from a man, and if the man decides he doesn't want to support those kids or be a part of their life then he leaves and they don't ever see him again or get any money, or support from him.

elian

Apr 9, 2015, 10:13 PM

I agree with Annika, but I see your point - if one party flat out refuses to be responsible then the other one is left hanging.

It isn't the number of partners you desire in a relationship that makes you a responsible person.

I personally wouldn't care if a person was poly as long as the relationship was honest/truthful, met the needs of everyone involved, the financial resources are there and people are mature enough to not be abusive. For a lot of people, that's a hard list of requirements to fill.

I tried dating a couple once, I wanted to be there for both of them, they were beautiful but I found it to be emotionally draining. At least for me, it seems hard enough to take care of the needs of one person for a lifetime. I suppose maybe it was hard because the relationship was long distance, or maybe communication between everyone was not as open as it should have been.

With respect to promiscuity, I guess I'm not the only one who confuses sex and love..although I am sure that's not the only excuse. Whether we like to admit it or not, we are subject to biological drives.

It is true that some people are self-satisfying. I know one man who alternately told me that he was allergic to condoms, then messed up and said he didn't like them the second time I asked. He is proud of "his" children, although the only reason "his" children have a decent life is that at least two of them have been adopted by another family. Some men really don't know what it means to be a father. There are emotional skills that you must learn when you are young, children who grow up without that support in their lives, in the right place, at the right time can struggle very hard to learn the lessons later in life.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/HeartForge/149677248434682

I also understand what you are saying about using children as a source of revenue, but the bottom line is, until I become a perfect person it really isn't my place to judge others. The best I can do is to try to ensure I have no "surprises" of my own.

I guess to answer the question, responsibility is "real" for the people who believe in it, but being human we all have flaws. A long time ago I learned that there is no such thing as a permanent knight in shining armor. At some point even knights have to take off their armor, and typically there are scars underneath.

That doesn't mean there aren't good people in the world, it means that everyone struggles with something..it's a part of being human.

tenni

Apr 9, 2015, 11:42 PM

This is a rather winding divergent issue thread. Monogamy compared to poly is as others have posted individual lifestyle decisions. Parental responsibility does seem to be connected to marriage lifestyle choices. The fact that the OP set up fund so that any children that he sired would be fiscally safe is a good thing. As others have pointed out parental responsibility has a lot more factors that economic. Increasingly, studies indicate the significance of both male and female adult parent parent surrogate is key to developing healthy psychological person.

I agree that anyone who judges one lifestyle as better than the other is not a healthy thing. A variety of methods may work depending on the people involved. People judge what is bed for themselves. Unless it impact your life and safety or the children's safety, let them live their way.

The possibility of a woman left to care on her own for her children is unfortunate. I can not blame the man nor woman. Its complicated and so many of us know or live these issues.

Annika L

Apr 9, 2015, 11:49 PM

...if a girl doesn't take precautions its on her...

Certainly it is...she is the one left "holding the ball" so to speak. The impression I got from your post is that you feel this is the way it *should* be, and the law ought to reinforce what is already a default responsibility. That is what I disagree with. A man who takes an action should be responsible for that action, and should be held accountable for it. If he is genuinely misled, certainly that changes the evaluation of responsibility...but since reality gives women "default responsibility" for what a man can do to her, it is especially incumbent on the law to make sure that men have equal incentive to take equal responsibility.

darkeyes

Apr 10, 2015, 6:36 AM

...I think since she's the one who gets pregnant...birth control should be up to the female...if she gets pregnant its on her...if the law wants to hold the man responsible...then if the female wants a divorce she should need the father's consent...
It is so comforting to know that misogyny and the desire of some men to control the lives and very existence of women is alive and well.. together with a complete absence of responsibility for their actions... they do indeed want 2 have their cake and eat it.. 21st century and still far too many men feel no shame for their greed and selfishness and are so full of themselves that they shall, in time, disappear up their own arse-holes...

Tbh, I never know whether to believe such a proper Charlie, but taking Smithy's words at face value, I rather enjoy the idiocy and stupidity of them..;)

ski62

Apr 10, 2015, 6:54 AM

Enjoyed the varied posts. Poly, serial monogamy, divorce, parenting, birth control responsibility....life is grey, messy, and confusing. Respect, tolerance, honesty and especially comfort with self is seemingly the best path.

elian

Apr 10, 2015, 7:09 AM

Oh, I think if the OP and his group (?) go through the trouble to think things out, have clear and honest communication and the financial resources to take care of their responsibilities then they are being very responsible. What I have trouble with is thinking that -everyone- who desires to have sex is equally responsible. A lot of people, whether they are poly or not - would not go through the trouble to think ahead.

I think the responsibility should be shared, of course I also try not to treat the people I care about as sex toys.

I blame men who think that they are somehow being "virile" and God's gift to humanity when they blatantly make it their mission in life to get as much "pussy" as possible. Doubly so if they do not use a condom .. Bravado sucks if you aren't planning or aren't capable of being there for your kid.

This is a rather winding divergent issue thread. Monogamy compared to poly is as others have posted individual lifestyle decisions. Parental responsibility does seem to be connected to marriage lifestyle choices. The fact that the OP set up fund so that any children that he sired would be fiscally safe is a good thing. As others have pointed out parental responsibility has a lot more factors that economic. Increasingly, studies indicate the significance of both male and female adult parent parent surrogate is key to developing healthy psychological person.

I agree that anyone who judges one lifestyle as better than the other is not a healthy thing. A variety of methods may work depending on the people involved. People judge what is bed for themselves. Unless it impact your life and safety or the children's safety, let them live their way.

The possibility of a woman left to care on her own for her children is unfortunate. I can not blame the man nor woman. Its complicated and so many of us know or live these issues.

tenni

Apr 10, 2015, 10:06 AM

Elian
First let me correct my statement. "Parental responsibility does seem to be connected to marriage lifestyle choices."
This should read that parental responsibility does not seem to be connected to marriage lifestyle choices. (auto correct issues)

I can not disagree with anything that you posted exactly. However, things happen. There is a difference between being a lover and being a parent. Pregnancy gives the upcoming parents about seven months to prepare for parenthood. I think that the case of Simon Cowell in the past year or so is a good example of a carefree man who was probably rather sexually active with a variety of women. It was a messy situation of the woman being the wife of a male friend of Cowell's. I don't know how long it took Cowell to decide that he was going to be responsible and active in his child's life type of male parent. The point that he did in this situation

Other people can be pointed out as to whether the parent acted responsibly. I think that it is hard for a parent who does not have a custody situations that they are happy with. It seems that if the parent doesn't feel equal access is given and they are in constant conflict with the other parent..right or wrong that parent may be inclined to walk away. It is not the "good parent" approach but I am able to empathize with them. I have known such parents. I have also known non custodial parents who put up with a lot of crap because they love their child and want to be in that child's life.

charles-smythe

Apr 10, 2015, 10:41 AM

...until the guy has equal say in abortions...getting pregnant is on her...

pole_smoker

Apr 10, 2015, 6:15 PM

Annika L

Apr 10, 2015, 9:02 PM

...until the guy has equal say in abortions...getting pregnant is on her...

Oh, so women get screwed by men in your ethos, because of existing abortion laws. And who made those laws, precisely? More specifically, what sex were they? So now, women get screwed by men, because of laws other men put in place. So what? We have to wait until men change those laws before we can be treated as equal human beings?

If men could be impregnated by other men, I feel it likely that you would have different feelings about who is responsible...i.e., you would not argue that "it's on the pregnant guy cuz he got himself pregnant".

tenni

Apr 10, 2015, 10:13 PM

" He's gay, and this was done as a PR move"

Being a responsible dad is not limited to any specific sexuality.

I find that gay flaming queens tend to focus on labelling who they think is gay.

pole_smoker

Apr 11, 2015, 2:59 AM

" He's gay, and this was done as a PR move"

Being a responsible dad is not limited to any specific sexuality.

I find that gay flaming queens tend to focus on labelling who they think is gay.

Then count yourself in as a "gay flaming queen" since you love to claim that my husband and I are really gay; but are simply in denial about being bisexual men. However, it's not like I have to post that you're a "gay flaming queen" and homophobe/biphobe that doesn't understand male bisexuality Tenni, everyone already knows this about you. ;)

It's an open secret about Simon being gay, and next thing you know you'll be claiming that people like Travolta, and Tom Cruise are really heterosexual. :rolleyes:

elian

Apr 11, 2015, 11:12 AM

Well, that just sort of proves how trying to analyze things in thought only pales in comparison to real life. You can extoll all of the philosophy you want but until the situation actually happens and your are presented with reality you might feel differently eh?

Saving face in public is a factor, instinct is a factor, maturity as a person is a factor, personal and shared resources are a factor. A lot of times the welfare of the child takes a back seat to all of these things. You can tell where a parent's priorities lie by the way they treat the child in spite of whatever feelings they may hold for the "ex" or "friend" in the case of Simon Cowell - of course for all I know Simon may like -both- his friend and his friend's wife "a lot". It really isn't any of my business but it is nice to know that he is contributing to the child's life anyway.

Sometimes it is heartbreaking because the parent really does care for the child but does not have the resources..

I'm not saying don't have sex, but just the tiniest bit of thought has to go into it..for the welfare of your partner(s), your own health and between opposite sex partners, whether they really want a child or not.

If someone is not being honest then I can see how it hurts the relationship. BTW, it doesn't necessarily have to be a polyamorous relationship to raise a child - if you have a large family grandparents often can help, and it gives them a second opportunity to do it again as a shared experience. Other folks who wish they had a child but could not.. all sorts of stuff, again most of it not binary so you won't see it represented in public very often.

Elian
First let me correct my statement. "Parental responsibility does seem to be connected to marriage lifestyle choices."
This should read that parental responsibility does not seem to be connected to marriage lifestyle choices. (auto correct issues)

I can not disagree with anything that you posted exactly. However, things happen. There is a difference between being a lover and being a parent. Pregnancy gives the upcoming parents about seven months to prepare for parenthood. I think that the case of Simon Cowell in the past year or so is a good example of a carefree man who was probably rather sexually active with a variety of women. It was a messy situation of the woman being the wife of a male friend of Cowell's. I don't know how long it took Cowell to decide that he was going to be responsible and active in his child's life type of male parent. The point that he did in this situation

Other people can be pointed out as to whether the parent acted responsibly. I think that it is hard for a parent who does not have a custody situations that they are happy with. It seems that if the parent doesn't feel equal access is given and they are in constant conflict with the other parent..right or wrong that parent may be inclined to walk away. It is not the "good parent" approach but I am able to empathize with them. I have known such parents. I have also known non custodial parents who put up with a lot of crap because they love their child and want to be in that child's life.