Sex-change drugs a right, judge says

[MarieDelta]

Maybe I should go get myself locked up somewhere...

Nah, not that eager to be raped etc...

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/89701297.html



A federal judge has struck down a Wisconsin law that prohibits prison inmates from getting hormone therapy to treat gender identity disorder.

U.S. District Judge Charles N. Clevert Jr., who presided over a civil trial challenging the law in 2007, issued a ruling late Wednesday and declared the statute unconstitutional on several grounds. Clevert's order indicated a longer memorandum decision would follow.

In early 2006, Clevert had issued a preliminary injunction to allow the hormone therapy to continue.

In Wednesday's order, Clevert found that the law amounts to "deliberate indifference to the plaintiffs' serious medical needs in violation of the Eighth Amendment," because it denies hormone therapy without regard to those needs or doctors' judgments. He found the law unconstitutional on its face and also in violation of the inmates' rights to equal protection.


I like what Helen Boyd has to say about it(http://www.myhusbandbetty.com/2010/04/03/wi-hormones-cant-be-banned-for-inmates/)



What’s interesting to me is that there is no mention of why an inmate might want genital surgery aside from being transgender: inmates are housed based on their genitals. That is, if a transgender woman has been living for 10 years in the female gender, but has not had genital surgery, she can be housed with male inmates.

Amazing how they never mention that in the light of “cruel and unusual.”

I’m not “for” taxpayers paying for surgeries for inmates, either, to be honest, but I am if the law is too dumb to understand and recognize an individual’s right to self-determine his/her gender. The same people who are concerned about taxpayers paying for these surgeries should get behind lightening the requirements to legally change gender identity on ID cards (but they won’t, since their objection is usually not based at all on making the lives of transgender people humane).

[TwylaTwobits]

In my eyes it well falls within the eight amendment to provide needed medical care whatever that may be. I suspect from what I read there to be serious challenges however to this ruling.

This quote bothered me a LOT

Rep. Scott Suder (R-Abbotsford), another sponsor of the law, called Clevert's ruling "a travesty of justice" that should be appealed immediately.

"This ruling puts a higher priority on helping inmate Tommy become Tammy than protecting the pocketbooks of law abiding citizens," Suder said.

From what I read the ruling puts medical care back into the hands of the patient's doctor and not whatever petty bureaucrat is in charge at a facility. Keep us posted, Marie.

[FalconAngel]

In my eyes it well falls within the eight amendment to provide needed medical care whatever that may be. I suspect from what I read there to be serious challenges however to this ruling.

This quote bothered me a LOT

Rep. Scott Suder (R-Abbotsford), another sponsor of the law, called Clevert's ruling "a travesty of justice" that should be appealed immediately.

"This ruling puts a higher priority on helping inmate Tommy become Tammy than protecting the pocketbooks of law abiding citizens," Suder said.

From what I read the ruling puts medical care back into the hands of the patient's doctor and not whatever petty bureaucrat is in charge at a facility. Keep us posted, Marie.

On this one, I have to disagree with you.

You know that I am all for TG folks having equal rights as others, in every aspect of society, this ruling is a bit disturbing to me.

While a person is certainly not legally constrained from changing gender, there is a limit to it, which should stop at my, and my neighbors' tax dollars; specifically when the TG person is in prison. They are, for all intents and purposes, getting what they want at everyone else's expense. They are not earning the money themselves (legally) and paying for it out of their own pocket, just like other TG folks that pay for their own meds and surgeries themselves.

And to be perfectly honest, my tax dollars, that are used in the prison system, are far more wisely spent on education and career training of inmates to keep them from committing crimes in the future. That is a wise investment, but gender reassignment drugs for prisoners are not.

Prison is not about protecting inmates' rights. It is about pennance for crimes.
Punishment is not punishment if it is not cruel and unusual to some degree beyond just incarceration. And while Tommy has every right to become Tammy, that should not be paid for by taxpayer dollars while in prison.
If Tommy/Tammy wants to get an education while in prison, that is a different thing. Taxpayers are willing to pay the money for reducing recidivism amongst inmates. We want them to be productive citizens. And an education will make one a more productive citizen, but gender reassignment drugs will not make Tommy/Tammy either more or less productive once released from prison. they will not prepare him/her for beig a productive citizen.

The rights of the criminal are effectively suspended when they are convicted of the crime, until they are released from prison.

I do understand that there is a psychological factor involved and that would normally be addressed anyway, with or without the drugs, so that I have no issue with, but if the medications are not necessary for maintaining life and health, then no; taxpayer money is better spent elsewhere in the prison system for programs that better serve the greater community by reducing inmate recidivism.

[MarieDelta]

I think that some people who dont understand trans issues often think this is all voluntary. They cannot know the anguish of Gender Identity Disorder. No one does this because they want to. No one does this for fun. Many people have taken their lives because they cannot deal with this.

There have been cases of transwomen cutting off their penises and / or commiting suicide. Because they have no hope of ever being themselves.


Yes, they are criminals. However, they are still humans. Would you deny someone who is bi-polar their needed medication? Would you prevent someone from getting medically needed treatments? Would you deny a diabetic inmate their insulin?

This is the same issue.

It is cruel and inhumane to deny these inmates their medically prescribed treatments.

If you lock me up and prevent me from getting my hormones - shoot me. Because I will not want to live, and I will do everything in my power to ensure that my life is short. That includes "blue suicide", if need be.

This is the essence of Gender Identity Disorder.

[darkeyes]

On this one, I have to disagree with you.

You know that I am all for TG folks having equal rights as others, in every aspect of society, this ruling is a bit disturbing to me.

While a person is certainly not legally constrained from changing gender, there is a limit to it, which should stop at my, and my neighbors' tax dollars; specifically when the TG person is in prison. They are, for all intents and purposes, getting what they want at everyone else's expense. They are not earning the money themselves (legally) and paying for it out of their own pocket, just like other TG folks that pay for their own meds and surgeries themselves.

And to be perfectly honest, my tax dollars, that are used in the prison system, are far more wisely spent on education and career training of inmates to keep them from committing crimes in the future. That is a wise investment, but gender reassignment drugs for prisoners are not.

Prison is not about protecting inmates' rights. It is about pennance for crimes.
Punishment is not punishment if it is not cruel and unusual to some degree beyond just incarceration. And while Tommy has every right to become Tammy, that should not be paid for by taxpayer dollars while in prison.
If Tommy/Tammy wants to get an education while in prison, that is a different thing. Taxpayers are willing to pay the money for reducing recidivism amongst inmates. We want them to be productive citizens. And an education will make one a more productive citizen, but gender reassignment drugs will not make Tommy/Tammy either more or less productive once released from prison. they will not prepare him/her for beig a productive citizen.

The rights of the criminal are effectively suspended when they are convicted of the crime, until they are released from prison.

I do understand that there is a psychological factor involved and that would normally be addressed anyway, with or without the drugs, so that I have no issue with, but if the medications are not necessary for maintaining life and health, then no; taxpayer money is better spent elsewhere in the prison system for programs that better serve the greater community by reducing inmate recidivism.

Marie is more on the ball than you here Falcie.. in this country the NHS can perform sex reassigment if it is considered necessary and if by refusing such treatment the mental heath of the person will be adversely affected.. prisoners are human beings and they suffer mental torture just like anyone else if they are prevented from doing what they could do in the outside world.. in the outside world they at least have the opportunity of getting what they want .. the fact that they are imprisoned makes it so much more difficult if not impossible until now.. and so what you are saying is in fact to inflict upon such a prisoner cruel and unusual treatment..

[MarieDelta]

Remember Christine Daniels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Penner)?

She died because she felt that she would never be able to be herself.

This is the same issue.

[FalconAngel]

Marie is more on the ball than you here Falcie.. in this country the NHS can perform sex reassigment if it is considered necessary and if by refusing such treatment the mental heath of the person will be adversely affected.. prisoners are human beings and they suffer mental torture just like anyone else if they are prevented from doing what they could do in the outside world.. in the outside world they at least have the opportunity of getting what they want .. the fact that they are imprisoned makes it so much more difficult if not impossible until now.. and so what you are saying is in fact to inflict upon such a prisoner cruel and unusual treatment..

Well, having never been anywhere near the prison system in the UK, I can't speak for it, but here in the US it is not so bad by comparison.

Here's a list of what prisoners in the US enjoy through taxpayer dollars:

Free medical
Free education, if they choose to partake
Free job training if they choose to partake
Free cable TV. I don't even have Cable TV, but a criminal gets to have it?
Free access to gym equipment
Do not have to work if they do not want.
They also get paid (admittedly a pittance, but it is still money to build up for when they get out)
and in some prisons, they get to choose from a menu rather than just eat on a cafeteria style chow hall.

And those are just the things that I know about.

I have some pics of the latest facility built for the Cook County Corrections Dept. in Chicago,IL.

It looks more like a 4 star hotel than a prison.

After all of that, then you can understand why many Americans have no sympathy for those incarcerated in the prison system.

[MarieDelta]

Well, having never been anywhere near the prison system in the UK, I can't speak for it, but here in the US it is not so bad by comparison.

Here's a list of what prisoners in the US enjoy through taxpayer dollars:

Free medical
Free education, if they choose to partake
Free job training if they choose to partake
Free cable TV. I don't even have Cable TV, but a criminal gets to have it?
Free access to gym equipment
Do not have to work if they do not want.
They also get paid (admittedly a pittance, but it is still money to build up for when they get out)
and in some prisons, they get to choose from a menu rather than just eat on a cafeteria style chow hall.

And those are just the things that I know about.

I have some pics of the latest facility built for the Cook County Corrections Dept. in Chicago,IL.

It looks more like a 4 star hotel than a prison.

After all of that, then you can understand why many Americans have no sympathy for those incarcerated in the prison system.

and yet People arent rushing to be in prison...

If you make someone a ward of the state, that entitles them to fair treatment. I disagree with some of these things (cable, gym ...) but medical is a neccesary function if you remove someones ability to seek out help. Just as is food.

Just because prisoners get free food doesnt mean that we feed them garbage.

Prisoners are the lowest rung in society, but that doesnt mean we treat them as less than human. That is what makes us a just society.

Because like it or not, incarcerating someone makes their needs our problem.

[TwylaTwobits]

Exactly right, Marie. They are not saying that someone goes to prison and while in prison decides to change sex would have everything paid for at taxpayers expense. They are not saying that someone who is still thinking about it but goes to prison decides to proceed because it's at the taxpayers expense. They are saying that someone who had been having treatment by a doctor before being sentenced has the right to continue that care under the guidance of their medical team. Not allowing this would be tantamount to stopping the drugs that will help combat the side effects of chemotherapy but allowing them to have the chemo.

I would sure rather my tax dollars go to help someone rather than buy another toilet seat for the pentagon.

Disagree all you like, but it's been ruled as of now that the Eighth Amendment applies in this case. There may still be serious challenges as I said but there will be no final word until it hits the Supreme Court.


And please don't say I'm sympathizing with incarcerated people, after all I put my brother in jail. I could care less that he had to get glasses because they wouldn't cover his contacts. I can care less that he gets fed less than he was used to eating at my parents. I do care that while in jail he can't use meth.

[FalconAngel]

and yet People arent rushing to be in prison...

If you make someone a ward of the state, that entitles them to fair treatment. I disagree with some of these things (cable, gym ...) but medical is a neccesary function if you remove someones ability to seek out help. Just as is food.

Just because prisoners get free food doesnt mean that we feed them garbage.

Prisoners are the lowest rung in society, but that doesnt mean we treat them as less than human. That is what makes us a just society.

Because like it or not, incarcerating someone makes their needs our problem.

Actually, the recidivism rate in the US is pretty high. Many of them like it because it is so much better for them than being on the outside.

And I firmly agree with the medical necessity and things to insure that they are healthy and have the opportunities to improve themselves and become productive citizens.

I just don't agree with "feel good" programs.

Think about this for a minute;
if you are working, paying your bills, trying to save money for gender reassignment and all that this or that person has to do is to get put in prison to get all that they need, short of the surgery, to continue.......that doesn't irritate you at all?

It would irritate me to no end.

[FalconAngel]

I would sure rather my tax dollars go to help someone rather than buy another toilet seat for the pentagon.

Don't get started on that. You don't actually think that they really 100 dollars for a hammer, 1000 dollars for a toilet seat, etc., do you? How do you think that black ops get funded?



And please don't say I'm sympathizing with incarcerated people, after all I put my brother in jail. I could care less that he had to get glasses because they wouldn't cover his contacts. I can care less that he gets fed less than he was used to eating at my parents. I do care that while in jail he can't use meth.

Not saying that you sympathize with inmates, but you are sympathizing with inmates that are TG.
That would be akin me saying that it is okay to allow Pagan prisoners to have athames (ritual knife, for those that don't know), robes and other not necessary items for ritual, when the fingers will do.
It is not the danger level that I use as a comparison, but the use of things that are not absolutely required for a prisoner to live through their prison term.

Nothing more and nothing less.

[TwylaTwobits]

Not really Falcon, you know as well as I do that trappings of the ritual are not as important as the ritual itself. In this case a knife going into a prison would not be considered under the Eighth Amendment, maybe the First if they wanted to push for freedom of religion but they would only be granted an area to use for certain times of the year corresponding to the days that rites are done.

Bad example, try again. This is medicine that is NEEDED, not wanted. The prisoners covered under this need the medicines to make it through their prison term with sanity intact and not be on suicide watch 24/7. Therein lies the cause and the reasoning behind the judges ruling.

[TwylaTwobits]

Not saying that you sympathize with inmates, but you are sympathizing with inmates that are TG.



All I ca say to that is :bows: Thanks :)

[MarieDelta]

Actually, the recidivism rate in the US is pretty high. Many of them like it because it is so much better for them than being on the outside.

And I firmly agree with the medical necessity and things to insure that they are healthy and have the opportunities to improve themselves and become productive citizens.

I just don't agree with "feel good" programs.

Think about this for a minute;
if you are working, paying your bills, trying to save money for gender reassignment and all that this or that person has to do is to get put in prison to get all that they need, short of the surgery, to continue.......that doesn't irritate you at all?

It would irritate me to no end.

Remember, I can’t afford the hormones I need.

It doesn’t irritate me, in the same way that someone else getting their medical needs met doesn't irritate me. Why should it?

I understand how painful it is to suffer through bouts of dysphoria, remember? I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy. Just as I would never torture someone for whatever reason.

Besides , hormones aren’t really that expensive. Not when you compare it to the waste our government generates on a daily basis. Especially when you compare it to the money spent on our sennators and congressmen’s junkets and other benefits.

In addition think about this. One woman in a prison with rapist and other offenders? Think about it, no way in hell do I envy them. You are as likely to get killed, and from what I have read more so. Since the gangs tend to see you as a threat to their members loyalty.

[TwylaTwobits]

I make a pledge right now...if I ever win the lottery Marie gets her drugs and whatever else she needs.

[MarieDelta]

I make a pledge right now...if I ever win the lottery Marie gets her drugs and whatever else she needs.

Thanks Twyla :bigrin:

[TwylaTwobits]

Yw, now start praying to whatever you got that I hit Wednesday's Powerball :)

[transcendMental]

Falcon, I would like to understand your position on medical treatment of prison inmates better.

If an inmate had a medical condition that caused them severe shakes (convulsions), non-lethal but extremely uncomfortable and periodically debilitating, would you support them receiving (at taxpayer's expense) an inexpensive medication that addressed their symptoms?

If an inmate had severe clinical depression, would you support them receiving (at taxpayer's expense) an inexpensive medication to alleviate the depression?

If a female inmate had nonfunctioning ovaries and was taking medication under a doctor's order to balance her hormone levels prior to incarceration, would you support taxpayer dollars funding her continued treatment during incarceration?

If the answer to any of these question is yes, then I submit to you that there is no material difference between those situations and that of a transsexual receiving hormone medication.

This is not about helping Tommy become Tammy as part of a "feel good" program. It is about Tommy having a brain structured as a woman's brain, and needing estrogen her body does not naturally produce. If she does not receive medication, she is in increasing distress and becomes increasingly suicidal. Yes, over years, she'll also develop breasts and softer skin, but that's a secondary benefit for a transsexual, not the primary benefit of taking hormone medication. The primary benefit is helping you feel less like you are crawling out of your skin, because you don't feel like you belong there. Years of psychiatric research show that no other treatment is effective in accomplishing this.

Since the case does not really talk about the surgery issue, we should leave that out of this conversation, at least for now. How do you (and others) feel about the comparisons to medication for other medical disorders? This is no doubt what the judge based his decisions on, and I applaud and am thankful for his judgment.

Thanks for listening.
tm

[MarieDelta]

Hormones cost approximately $100 per month. Therapy is about $100 per session.

Compared to the cost of sennators travel expenses, not related to Congressional work, it is a pittance(http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0609/23615.html.)

If that is all it costs to maintain someones sanity, it seems a small price to pay.

[transcendMental]

Hormones are not a right. They are a luxury.

I agree with Falcon I do not want prisoners getting luxuries such as hormones when they are not actually needed by the people who take them.

Hormones despite what trans people say are not something that are needed and they are not like insulin for a diabetic or other medications for people who have actual medical conditions and not just issues with their gender and/or sexuality.

I know in the United States if a prisoner has medical conditions such as cancer or other issues that they are not always given treatment or medications unless it's a major emergency.

Hormones are not something that someone that is trans even always needs even if they threaten suicide or a hunger strike just to get them.

The people who are in prison for violent crimes belong there. I do not want them getting hormones even if they claim that they need them as it's pointless.

I know people who are trans who take hormones who are not in prison and are upstanding citizens and they are on some sort of program that gives them hormones for free or a very reduced price.

I am fine with people who are not in prison signing up for hormone programs as these people are not prisoners and are not violent criminals.

There are TG/TS people who do not want to take any hormones at all or get any surgery during their life at all and they are fine with it.

The American Medical Association has stated that it recognizes Gender Identity Disorder as a medical condition that requires treatment, and that hormonal medications to balance the brain chemistry is the right way to treat it. They state that it should be declassified as a psychiatric disorder and included in the ICD (list of medical diagnostic codes).

Which major medical association backs your view that hormones are a luxury?

Do you consider your own hormones a luxury? Or if they failed you before your time, might you seek medical treatment?

[darkeyes]

Hormones are not a right. They are a luxury.

I agree with Falcon I do not want prisoners getting luxuries such as hormones when they are not actually needed by the people who take them.

Hormones despite what trans people say are not something that are needed and they are not like insulin for a diabetic or other medications for people who have actual medical conditions and not just issues with their gender and/or sexuality.

I know in the United States if a prisoner has medical conditions such as cancer or other issues that they are not always given treatment or medications unless it's a major emergency.

Hormones are not something that someone that is trans even always needs even if they threaten suicide or a hunger strike just to get them.

The people who are in prison for violent crimes belong there. I do not want them getting hormones even if they claim that they need them as it's pointless.

I know people who are trans who take hormones who are not in prison and are upstanding citizens and they are on some sort of program that gives them hormones for free or a very reduced price.

I am fine with people who are not in prison signing up for hormone programs as these people are not prisoners and are not violent criminals.

There are TG/TS people who do not want to take any hormones at all or get any surgery during their life at all and they are fine with it.

Getting treatment people need while in prison isnt a luxury.. while people are in clink they may have lost their freedom, but we should not deny them their dignity and their health. I am no Christian, and do not believe in Christ the redeemer, but will say this.. compassion and forgiveness for those who have transgressed against society is something a man almost 2000 years ago would heartily approved of.. he would not have grudged any of it.. whether he was son of God or no.. what I have learned of his compassion and his preaching, whether he was son of God or no, are fundamental in giving me the compassion I have for ALL human beings in need.. for a society which preaches God this and God that, there isn't quite the compassion which I would expect.

[FalconAngel]

The American Medical Association has stated that it recognizes Gender Identity Disorder as a medical condition that requires treatment, and that hormonal medications to balance the brain chemistry is the right way to treat it. They state that it should be declassified as a psychiatric disorder and included in the ICD (list of medical diagnostic codes).

Which major medical association backs your view that hormones are a luxury?

Do you consider your own hormones a luxury? Or if they failed you before your time, might you seek medical treatment?

What amazes me the most is that the entire medical community recognizes that, but we have to fight tooth and nail to get them to recognize Parental Alienation Syndrome (PAS) as a real condition.

[MarieDelta]

What amazes me the most is that the entire medical community recognizes that, but we have to fight tooth and nail to get them to recognize Parental Alienation Syndrome (PAS) as a real condition.

Dont think it hasnt been a fight for transsexuals? And it still is.

Thankfully due to science we are finally coming to the point where it can be shown to be more physical than psychological.

[transcendMental]

What amazes me the most is that the entire medical community recognizes that, but we have to fight tooth and nail to get them to recognize Parental Alienation Syndrome (PAS) as a real condition.

Yes, it has taken over 100 years of psychiatric and medical research to get to this point with GID. How long has PAS been studied? Why is this so amazing?

Care to address my questions above in post #18?

[Long Duck Dong]

I am of the stance that a tg person.... is a person..... their meds / hormones are treatment for them in the same way that anti depressives are a treatment for people with depression

denying a tg person the access to the meds / hormones that help them maintain their identity and general health, is on the same level as denying a depressive person their anti depressive meds.....

there is a huge difference between a drug addict and a person that requires medical / hormone treatment for issues and aspects of their life that are beyond their control.....
tg people never chose to be born in the wrong body.... denying them the rights to meds and hormones for their own well being, serves no purpose other than to inflict unneeded stress and suffering upon a person.....

I may not be tg, but I am mentally ill..... we do not choose our lives, but we still have to live them.....making us suffer to satisfy the * sadistic * nature of others, is nothing short of civilian imposed torture and I thought that the us stood strongly against that type of behievour.... not for it...... guess I read the constitution wrong

[TwylaTwobits]

Okay I gotta ask what does something like PAS have to possibly do with receiving hormones in jail? That's something that comes about with child abuse in custody disputes and while a valid issue, not part of this one.

[Luffly1]

denying a tg person the access to the meds / hormones that help them maintain their identity and general health, is on the same level as denying a depressive person their anti depressive meds.....



This statement right here pretty much sums up my opinion as well. I do see where the other side of the argument is coming from, and yes I can see how one would find the situation to be a bit frustrating, but I also feel that if inmates are going to be receiving healthcare then this is something that should be deemed a necessity along with everything else.