What would Jesus insure?

[FalconAngel]

Right wingers are at it again.

Another find on Care2.com that we all may find................interesting.


What Would Jesus Insure?
posted by: Nicole Nuss

Christian groups are trying to create a run around health care reform by setting up alternative, unregulated religious health care bill collectives—and movement conservatives are cheering them on.

Religious right-watcher Sarah Posner reports on so-called Christian health care-sharing ministries in the American Prospect. Health-sharing ministries (HCSM) bill themselves as godly alternatives to health insurance. HCSM are groups of Christians who promise to cover each other's heath care costs. About a hundred thousand people nationwide belong to these collectives. The Alliance of Health Care Sharing Ministries and its army of lobbyists convinced Senate lawmakers to exempt HCSMs from health care reform's individual mandate.

Obliterating patient privacy

According to Posner, anti-reform conservatives are talking up these groups because they see them as a way to undermine the individual mandate. But if you think HCSM are a convenient loophole to avoid paying for insurance, think again. Posner describes the criteria for joining Samaritan Ministries International (SMI), one of the largest HCSM:

"To join the HCSM, applicants must agree to a statement of faith that they are a 'professing Christian, according to biblical principles' set out in Romans 10:9-10 and John 3:3. They must agree to adhere to guidelines that include no sex outside of "traditional Biblical marriage," no smoking or drugs, and mandatory church attendance.

SMI members pay their own health care costs out of pocket and seek reimbursement from the group. What about privacy? In order to get reimbursed, they have to publish their health care "needs" in a monthly newsletter and hope someone sends cash. Lifetime benefits are capped at $100,000. Members waive their right to sue for any reason. SMI won't cover treatment for sexually transmitted diseases, addictions, or the pregnancies of single mothers.

It doesn't take a genius to see that this free-for-all won't end well. You can't just start a quasi-health insurance scheme in your garden shed and expect it to work out. Real insurance companies are subject to oversight to make sure that they have enough money on hand to cover their claims. Who knows what HSCM are doing with people's money? These outfits have all the disadvantages of private insurers and none of the benefits. Members are a single major illness away from bankruptcy.

Bartering for health care?

Speaking of wacky alternatives to health insurance, Sen. Harry Reid's (D-NV) main Republican challenger, Sue Lowden, insists that patients can pay for their health care via a barter system, as Rachel Slajda reports for TPMDC. Great! How many chickens for an appendectomy?

Medicare expansion doesn't equal bankruptcy

At Mother Jones, Kevin Drum debunks the latest right-wing myth about health care reform, that Medicare expansion will bankrupt the states. States pay part of the cost of Medicare, so it's true that any expansion of the program will cost the states some money. However, the talking point is that the expansion will push state budgets to the breaking point. That's false.

Drum explains that the health care reform bill exempts states from the extra cost until 2016. Even after that, the costs to the states will be minimal:

"[Health care reform] won't cost states an extra dime through 2016, by which time our recession will presumably be over, and even after that states will only pay for a tiny fraction of the increased costs. As CBPP points out, states will pay about 4 percent of the total costs of Medicaid expansion over the next ten years. This represents an increase in overall state Medicaid spending of slightly over 1 percent."

Abortion and 'convenience'

Jessica Valenti of Feministing has been taking on manipulative, anti-choice ads in the New York City subway. These ads are sponsored by an anti-abortion group. They feature various distraught-looking models staring wistfully into space. The tagline is "Abortion Changes You." The message is that if you have an abortion, you will be a guilt-racked wreck for the rest of your life. Some feminist with a wry sense of humor and a little glue pasted in another sentence on the ad (pictured above): "Now I can go to college and fulfill my dreams."

Anti-choice blogger Lori Ziganto was scandalized by the anonymous culture jammer's message. She sneered at the idea that women's lives and hopes actually matter: "Want to go to college, but there is a pesky baby growing inside of you? Abort! A life is far less important than your co-ed fun and career plans, right?"

Valenti's response: "It isn't that anti-choicers don't understand why women get abortions – it's that they care so little about women's lives that any reason given to obtain an abortion is seen as "convenient." Some things that are convenient: Providing for your existing children. Going to college. Having enough money to eat, pay rent, keep the electricity on. Not dying."

HSCMs and the subway ads are part of an enormous rift in contemporary politics: Opponents of health care reform say that they're defending freedom, but in reality, they're advocating control.

This post features links to the best independent, progressive reporting about health care by members of The Media Consortium. It is free to reprint.

Read more: abortion, feminist, anti-choice, health care, Bankruptcy, harry reid, health policy, feministing, bartering for health care, hcsm, health care reform bill, health care sharing ministries, lori ziganto


As far as I am concerned, as long as they are not entitled to federal tax dollars and they stay out of my life, let them have their little communist system.

[12voltman59]

To cap this thing out at only $100,000??? That is absouletly nothing if you have any sort of serious healh situation----have a heart attack, be in a severe car accident, get burned in a fire--you will burn through $100k in ten minutes of care----they are totally crazy, these folks.

I was going to mention that Nevada Republican US Senate candidate who said this stuff about bartering chickens and other things of ths sort for medical care---they have her on tape on many programs saying this stuff!!----she had a chance on numerous occasions to back away from this position but she sticks with it---you do have to wonder----what sort of world does she live in??? Hardly anyone has chickens anymore--live in a suburb or city and you can't have them.

Does she think a doctor is going to take chickens or other barter goods so he or she can go pay their six figure student loans, pay for continuing education classes, pay their insurances and other fees, pay for meds to stock their in offiice medicine supply, pay for their office rent, lights and such with those goods???

They say this woman polls ten points ahead of Harry Reid (that was before she came up with this great idea)--I hope that with this stuff--the people of Nevada are not DUMB enough to continue to support this woman--this proposal alone shows she has no place being in the US Senate!!!!

Good Lord, help us if this is where we are at with crazy ass stuff like this being at least prosposed seriously---I hope that no one takes such a proposal seriously!!!

Does anyone here not agree with me that some of these right wing types are not totally fucking crazy with stuff like this???

Do the Republlicans think allowing this sort of crazy stuff makes them a serious and credible alternative party that deserves to be in control of things in this day and age????

The Democrats are certainly not perfect by any stretch of the imagination---but there is just simply way too much crazy as hell stuff that gets put out these days by members of the Republican Party--and it seems--no matter how damn whacked it is----the Republican PR operations can spin some crazy as all git out shit as being reasonable and totally making sense!!!

[bigbadmax]

I think jesus would insure against acts of god lol

or maybe against sexual harrassment

[chook]

If I were Jesus I would have gotten my arse insured.....just stop and think about it all that time roaming the desert and twelve not one but TWELVE blokes following you around with god knows what on their minds. :yikes2:


Cheers Chook :bigrin:

[Hephaestion]

Falcon - "....As far as I am concerned, as long as they are not entitled to federal tax dollars and they stay out of my life, let them have their little communist system....."

Now there's a little conundrum. Doesn't the right wing in your country rely on support from 'Christian' groups?

[brutal_priestess]

"To join the HCSM, applicants must agree to a statement of faith that they are a 'professing Christian, according to biblical principles' set out in Romans 10:9-10 and John 3:3. They must agree to adhere to guidelines that include no sex outside of "traditional Biblical marriage," no smoking or drugs, and mandatory church attendance.

SMI members pay their own health care costs out of pocket and seek reimbursement from the group. What about privacy? In order to get reimbursed, they have to publish their health care "needs" in a monthly newsletter and hope someone sends cash. Lifetime benefits are capped at $100,000. Members waive their right to sue for any reason. SMI won't cover treatment for sexually transmitted diseases, addictions, or the pregnancies of single mothers.


Ha! What a load of horse shit. That's gotta be illegal anyway. I mean, I get the whole smoking or drugs thing. Fine, but the other stuff? You can't control people like that, and anyway, how can you discourage abortion while also discouraging single motherhood? Don't kill your baby but we can't cover your prenatal care? The lack of STD coverage pisses me off,too. I mean, what if you are in a sanctioned marriage but your husband finds a bit of fun on the side, doesn't wear a condom, and brings something home to you? How is that fair?

And people wonder why i hate most Christians.

[Hephaestion]

If I were Jesus I would have gotten my arse insured.....just stop and think about it all that time roaming the desert and twelve not one but TWELVE blokes following you around with god knows what on their minds. :yikes2:

Cheers Chook :bigrin:


Well the poor sausage was well and truly screwed by one of the disciples so you may well have a point.

[Lady_Passion]

Jesus would likely insure against patenting of life.

[Canticle]

His sandals......he did a heck of a lot of walking!

[darkeyes]

Far as me can tell 'e wud hav life insurance made ova 2 'is dear ole mum (or mayb Mary Magadalene if sum peeps r 2 b believed) an medical insurance if only 2 pay for pain killers for wen these rusty ole nails get rammed inta 'is wrists and ankles...

[Darkside2009]

Does anyone here not agree with me that some of these right wing types are not totally fucking crazy with stuff like this???

Volti.

Are you sure she mentioned bartering chickens, or did she just use the term bartering?

Bartering in itself is not unknown, for example if an architect were to say to a lawyer,"I'll draw up the plans for your new house, if you draft me a contract I can use in my business"

I can't see anything wrong in that, can you? If an electrician agrees to rewire a dentist's house in return for some root canal work, is there anything wrong in that?

To bring it closer to home for you, if your local coffee shop acts as a gallery for you to hang your photos. You get the chance of sales of those photos, or copies of them, in return, they get some nice original art-work for their walls.

See anything wrong in that? As the recession bites deeper you might find more people becoming unemployed. They might well be cash-poor but have skills they can use as assets instead of cash.

I would think communities such as the Amish have been bartering for a very long time.

Bartering as a practice, is probably as old as Mankind itself. It is already happening all around you.

[MarieDelta]

Does anyone here not agree with me that some of these right wing types are not totally fucking crazy with stuff like this???



Are you sure she mentioned bartering chickens, or did she just use the term bartering?

.

Yes , she did.

http://vodpod.com/watch/3463810-lowden-doubles-down-on-health-care-by-barter-bring-a-chicken-to-the-doctor-video

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt

This neglects the loss to government in taxes it also neglects a whole host of other factors.

You cant pay your student loans in bartered goods. You cant pay state, local or national taxes in bartered goods.

In addition doctors do not want bartered goods , in many cases.

The health care system is broken , here. The only question is how do we fix it.

If you think you arent paying for the poor to get health care now, think again. How do you think our hospital bills got so high in the first place?

If people cant pay , then the hospital /clinic simply passes that cost on to insurance companies and others who can/ will pay.

[Pasadenacpl2]

I don't see anything wrong with this concept.

1. It's voluntary.
2. It avoids the individual requirement (which is bullshit anyway).

If you don't want to agree to their terms, then you don't sign up. It harms no one.

Isn't this sort of thing what the left wanted? That people with money would pay for the healthcare of those who do not? Wasn't that the point? This particular method eliminates the government from the process (which saves money) and you can see directly where the money goes (transparency). Seems like a win to me.

And the 'disclosure' is just a statement of what you need. It's operating, from what I've been able to research, just like the 'wanted' section of Craigslist. This seems like a fantastic method of doing things. "Need: Sleep Study for Apnia. Cost $800" Someone sends you the $800. Viola!

An added bonus is that this method will allow for the payment of cash for services. This is often far cheaper than using an insurance plan. Example: my wife needs a sleep study for Apnia. If we use our insurance it will cost us $1200 out of pocket before the insurance kicks in, with a total cost of $2700. If we pay cash it's $800.

For anyone complaining about privacy, you might forget that the Obama administration has already eliminated any semblance of medical privacy. ALL medical records are now kept in a medical database and are reviewed by bureaucrats to ensure the doctor is doing their job correctly. That was done in anticipation of Tom Daschle becoming HHS director (which he did not).

And all of this discussion is rather pointless. This is Christians helping out fellow Christians. So what? It doesn't affect any of you. Your incessant attacks upon Christianity is beyond rude.

And for the kind person who said that they hate nearly all Christians: way to be tolerant. You win this week's Kanye West award.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

If people cant pay , then the hospital /clinic simply passes that cost on to insurance companies and others who can/ will pay.

It is often cheaper to pay as you go than to use an insurance company. At the end of 2010 I will be getting rid of my insurance and only using a major medical plan to cover catastrophic issues. I'll have an HSA and that's about it. I look to save a bundle.

If we stop using the insurance companies, the issue solves itself. OH! SNAP! It's now illegal not to use an insurance company!

http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv352/sirjamesthegood/DoubleFacePalm.jpg

Pasa

[TwylaTwobits]

Yeah and I so can not wait for my first fine for not having health insurance....

[Pasadenacpl2]

Interesting bit about that. The only power the IRS has to enforce that is to dock it from your tax refunds. They do not have authority to levy fines.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/insurance/2010-04-29-healthirs28_CV_N.htm

Pasa

[MarieDelta]

It is often cheaper to pay as you go than to use an insurance company. At the end of 2010 I will be getting rid of my insurance and only using a major medical plan to cover catastrophic issues. I'll have an HSA and that's about it. I look to save a bundle.

If we stop using the insurance companies, the issue solves itself. OH! SNAP! It's now illegal not to use an insurance company!

http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv352/sirjamesthegood/DoubleFacePalm.jpg

Pasa

Good for you! Bless your heart!

[MarieDelta]

According to the World Health Organization (WHO), the United States spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product on health care every year than any other country. Yet, the United States ranks 37th out of 191 countries in the WHO's ranking of health care systems. It's difficult to imagine any consumer spending that much more money on a product only to be handed something that ranks 37th in quality.
http://health.howstuffworks.com/why-pursue-health-reform1.htm

Nice health care system we got here...

[Delilah]

One thing they need to hear before they join...
DON'T DRINK THE KOOL-AIDE!!!!

[Alaskan Couple]

Frankly, I just hope more and more Conservative fringe lunatics like this Sue Lowden in Nevada and Sarah Palin spring up and spout out their nonsense. In my opinion, Palin did more to elect Obama than anything he could have said or done. The majority of Americans are not far right fringe radicals, and when the Republicans identify with such goofs it can only cause them the loss of some potential votes.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again - The cleverest thing the Republicans have ever done is co-op the Christian vote. They did that primarily with two issues; Abortion and Homosexuality (e.g. "family values") Many of these folks have just bought into the sales pitch w/o giving it much thought, and little realize the underlying goals of republican politics which is to support corporate power whenever & wherever. Sadly, many of them are themselves the poorest of the poor and continue to witness their country's economy dissolve around them w/o a clue as to why. Further, the very agenda of the Republicans goes 180 degrees away from the compassion, love and charity that is the bedrock of true Christianity - it is so sad to see how these politicians are stirring up the hate and division in our country (talk about unpatriotic and destructive to all we hold dear!)

So I say to these Republican extremists; "Go Baby Go!" keep putting that foot in your mouth - and for all Obama bashers - shame on you. He has done as much of the things he promised as the obstructionist Republicans have allowed. And to those who deny the need for universal health care in a modern society the size of ours I ask; What are you smoking man? Many of our children and grandchildren can't even afford to see a doctor - is that the America you believe in?

And as to the question about what Jesus would insure...I don't think he would have seen the need for insurance because He said; "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"....and St. John taught; "...But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?" So to all the good folks out there who are afraid of sharing their precious wealth with those less fortunate I say; search your own heart man...what is motivating your fear of universal health care - is it perhaps just greed...alas, a nation infected with greed from the top down and through and through - may God have mercy on us all!!!

[Pasadenacpl2]

Sadly, many of them are themselves the poorest of the poor and continue to witness their country's economy dissolve around them w/o a clue as to why. Further, the very agenda of the Republicans goes 180 degrees away from the compassion, love and charity that is the bedrock of true Christianity - it is so sad to see how these politicians are stirring up the hate and division in our country (talk about unpatriotic and destructive to all we hold dear!)

Umm...The subject of this thread is an alternative to insurance which is 100% about charity. Did you miss that?


So I say to these Republican extremists; "Go Baby Go!" keep putting that foot in your mouth - and for all Obama bashers - shame on you. He has done as much of the things he promised as the obstructionist Republicans have allowed. And to those who deny the need for universal health care in a modern society the size of ours I ask; What are you smoking man? Many of our children and grandchildren can't even afford to see a doctor - is that the America you believe in?

I will not be shamed for disagreeing with the president, no matter who that happens to be. I disagree with him precisely because he has done what he has done. Further, calling the Republicans obstructionist is to point out the sliver in your neighbor's eye while ignoring the beam in yours. If you want to get into finger pointing down party lines, we can do that. You will not like the result, however. That sort of conversation never ends well, and I'd prefer it if we stopped it right now.

As for universal healthcare: it is not the job of the government to provide healthcare. It is further not the job of the government to force me to purchase a product i know is faulty.

Want to know how to fix healthcare? Get the fed out of it. Between underpayment for medicare/medicaid, overlapping (and often contradictory) regulations, and the FDA making drugs more expensive, it became a bloody mess. And that ignores that 37 states already had medical coverage for the poor (it's not the poor that have medical problems...its the lower middle class).

I have a ton of problems with the "universal" healthcare. None of them are because I'm "evil" or because I want kids to be without proper care. All of them are because I a: don't think this solves the problem, and b: don't think it's the fed's job to solve it.



And as to the question about what Jesus would insure...I don't think he would have seen the need for insurance because He said; "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"....and St. John taught; "...But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?" So to all the good folks out there who are afraid of sharing their precious wealth with those less fortunate I say; search your own heart man...what is motivating your fear of universal health care - is it perhaps just greed...alas, a nation infected with greed from the top down and through and through - may God have mercy on us all!!!

Finally, we have something to agree upon. This alternative to an insurance company these Christians are setting up is doing exactly what you posted. Thanks for pointing it out.

Pasa

[tenni]

Pasa wrote:
"It is often cheaper to pay as you go than to use an insurance company. At the end of 2010 I will be getting rid of my insurance and only using a major medical plan to cover catastrophic issues. I'll have an HSA and that's about it. I look to save a bundle."


I agree with Marie about health care costs compared to where the US is statistically on health care services. It is interesting that the US spends the most on health care but has no where near the health care coverage of 36 other countries. Spend more to get less seems to be the desire of some US people.

Pasa
I do not understand all of the short form terms that you used such as HSA and so that might explain some of my confusion about your plans to drop your health care insurance. Still, I am curious about others in your society who carry such a heavy debt via credit card usage etc. If that is the case, how will these people be able to put enough money aside to take care of any health issue? The older that you get, the greater the probability is that you will need medical care at an ever increasing pace. Clearly, you believe that you will save money and be able to put sufficient money aside to pay for any health issue that you or members of your family may have in the future. Now, maybe as an individual you will be able to resist spending this health care nest egg of cash for other desires or emergencies. However, do you think that most people in your credit debt society will be able to do the same? Look at the debt that your society has overall. It is expidentially increasing soon to be out of control according to some. I don't see the saver philosophy for medical emergencies working for most of your citizens? Well, maybe this HSA is something that takes care of most of your concerns?

Good luck to you and may all in your family remain healthy. I'd be a little concerned without knowing that I have health care paid for with my taxes. I personally have no debt and I'm able to save but no where near the amount that I might need if I came down with a cancer or heart issues. I have sufficient cash reserves to pay off completely any credit card debt on a monthly basis. If I don't have the cash, then I don't purchase the item. That includes large ticket items like a car. I don't know many in my country who have this ability but I do know some. I assume that the same ratio may exist in your country.

I think that it is fascinating that you will be able to get a procedure done for $800 when the system states that the costs are to be $2 700! Doesn't that show you that your citizens are being robbed by the insurance companies? It seems almost like you are paying cash under the table for a service that your insurance companies state the cost as three times greater. Is this cash payment even legal? Are the suppliers of the service doing this under the table and not paying tax on that income? It seems unethical and strange to me? Something is not logical in this possibility.

As far as this group offering an "in house" insurance coverage for medical needs that they believe in rather than all medical needs, it seems acceptable to me under your system. Does the state determine which medical needs must be offered to all citizens? If so, and these items are not on that list, it seems fair. If you do not want to follow their rules, then don't go with their medical insurance. I agree with Pasa that others should not oppose it on religious grounds. It should be looked at without a religious filter if possible.

[MarieDelta]

This system works for many with full-time jobs; a 2009 CNN poll found that approximately eight in 10 Americans were satisfied with their health insurance [source: Steinhauser]. However, critics of the system would say that such an opinion is akin to "ignorance is bliss." Most workers likely have no idea of the full cost of their company's plan, and they may be unaware how much the cost of health insurance has been rising in the last few years. The money disappears before workers can even know it's gone, perhaps in the form of an increased premium withheld from a paycheck or by employers skimping on raises in order to make insurance payments.

The unemployed, self-employed, part-time workers and those who work for companies that don't offer benefits probably have a better sense of how much health insurance truly costs. It's far more expensive for individuals and small groups to get health insurance because they constitute a small risk pool; a large company provides a large risk pool for the insurance company, which allows the company to charge smaller premiums. Liberal politicians since the time of Harry S. Truman have wanted to change the health care system in order to provide coverage to more people. These efforts have largely failed, with the notable exception of Lyndon B. Johnson's passage of Medicare and Medicaid, which provide health insurance for seniors and for those with low incomes, respectively. In 2009, about 47 million Americans lacked health insurance [source: Tumulty].

http://health.howstuffworks.com/u-s-health-care-reform1.htm

So I'm open to hearing your fix Pasa, tell me what would you do to ensure that we all get adequate health care?

Because this:


In the U.S., we spend approximately $6,000 per person each year on health care, which is $2,797 more than any other industrialized country spends [source: Clifton]. While we do have state-of-the-art hospitals and the highest quality equipment, the United States also has higher rates of infant mortality and lower life expectancies than other countries that spend but a fraction of what we do.

Definitely doesnt work...

[Darkside2009]

http://health.howstuffworks.com/u-s-health-care-reform1.htm

So I'm open to hearing your fix Pasa, tell me what would you do to ensure that we all get adequate health care?

Because this:



Definitely doesnt work...



In the UK we have a National Health Service that offers free medical care at the point of delivery.

It is paid for by those in work paying National insurance Contributions, deducted directly from their wages along with any tax due.

It is not without problems, access to certain drugs or treatment for serious illnesses can be a bit of a lottery depending on which area of the UK you happen to live in, and which Health Authority jurisdiction you fall under. There has been much controversy and criticism about this in the UK.

There is also a lot of criticism that too much of the Health Budget is being wasted on admin rather than on front-line services of patient treatment.

It is not unknown for patients to wait for hours on hospital trolleys whilst a bed in a medical ward is found for them.

There are supposed to be maximum time constraints on this but it is far from ideal.

There are of course private hospitals and private medical insurance available, in addition, to those that want it and who can afford the premiums.

However as in your country, I am sure there are lots of limitation or exclusion clauses to limit liability. For example any engagement in contact or high risk sports, or pre-existing medical conditions. The alternative is higher premiums to reflect the perceived risk.

A lot of Government effort is expended on promoting a healthy life style. The ban on smoking in public places has seen a marked effect on the improvement on health, as have the campaigns on excessive drinking.

People's diet is also a factor, with increased weight being a factor in diabetis, high blood pressure, heart attacks and strokes. But cheap junk food with lots of salt and preservatives and colourings, probably doesn't help any.

Ironically, Britons as a Nation, where healthier during the last World War when rationing was imposed and there were fewer cars, so people exercised more.

I suppose as Nations and individuals we should really re-assess our lifestyles as regards diet and exercise otherwise we are just creating problems for our old age.

As regards Christians, or any other group of people, banding together to help each other I can't see a problem in that. As long as what they are doing isn't illegal.

I don't know if you have them in the US, but in the UK we have credit unions that are a simple alternative to banks, where people save on a regular basis and can then borrow limited amounts of credit at low interest rates. In essence, it's a similar idea.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Pasa wrote:
"It is often cheaper to pay as you go than to use an insurance company. At the end of 2010 I will be getting rid of my insurance and only using a major medical plan to cover catastrophic issues. I'll have an HSA and that's about it. I look to save a bundle."


I agree with Marie about health care costs compared to where the US is statistically on health care services. It is interesting that the US spends the most on health care but has no where near the health care coverage of 36 other countries. Spend more to get less seems to be the desire of some US people.

That is the opposite of our desire. It is, however, the reality we are faced with. #1 culprit for that is the United States Federal Government.


Pasa
I do not understand all of the short form terms that you used such as HSA and so that might explain some of my confusion about your plans to drop your health care insurance. Still, I am curious about others in your society who carry such a heavy debt via credit card usage etc. If that is the case, how will these people be able to put enough money aside to take care of any health issue? The older that you get, the greater the probability is that you will need medical care at an ever increasing pace. Clearly, you believe that you will save money and be able to put sufficient money aside to pay for any health issue that you or members of your family may have in the future. Now, maybe as an individual you will be able to resist spending this health care nest egg of cash for other desires or emergencies. However, do you think that most people in your credit debt society will be able to do the same? Look at the debt that your society has overall. It is expidentially increasing soon to be out of control according to some. I don't see the saver philosophy for medical emergencies working for most of your citizens? Well, maybe this HSA is something that takes care of most of your concerns?

I don't know about what 'most' people can or cannot do. I know what I can do. What most people do with their money is none of my concern. If they do not plan for the future, that's their problem. If they live on credit, that's their problem. I, for one, carry no debt other than my house. If I don't have the money, I don't buy it (and that includes some medical expenses).

An HSA is a Health Savings Account. Once I'm no longer paying $400 a month into premiums and am instead putting that into an HSA, I will be able to afford nearly anything I need. The Major Medical policy will cover anything catastrophic.


Good luck to you and may all in your family remain healthy. I'd be a little concerned without knowing that I have health care paid for with my taxes. I personally have no debt and I'm able to save but no where near the amount that I might need if I came down with a cancer or heart issues. I have sufficient cash reserves to pay off completely any credit card debt on a monthly basis. If I don't have the cash, then I don't purchase the item. That includes large ticket items like a car. I don't know many in my country who have this ability but I do know some. I assume that the same ratio may exist in your country

Ability and desire are two different things. EVERYONE has the ability to live debt free. It simply is a matter of saying 'no.' Not everyone makes good choices. I'm ok with that. What I'm not ok with is making good choices and then paying for other people who do not.

I'm 100% against paying extra taxes to have the government run my healthcare decisions. Sorry, but they are the last people I want in charge. It's the government who ran up the costs on health care to begin with. Why on earth would I look to them to fix the very problem they were stupid enough to create? That's just silly.


I think that it is fascinating that you will be able to get a procedure done for $800 when the system states that the costs are to be $2 700! Doesn't that show you that your citizens are being robbed by the insurance companies? It seems almost like you are paying cash under the table for a service that your insurance companies state the cost as three times greater. Is this cash payment even legal? Are the suppliers of the service doing this under the table and not paying tax on that income? It seems unethical and strange to me? Something is not logical in this possibility.

Good for you! You win the prize. It ISN'T logical. Well, until you realize that in order to work with Medicare/Medicaid and with certain insurance companies, doctors have to jack up their prices just to get the fed/insurance to pay them enough to cover the bills. See, if a doctor quotes 2700, he might (might) get 1000 of that from the fed/insurance. BUT, the insurance says 'well, the bill is 2700, and we are charging you 20% of that.' Now, keep in mind that the 20% only kicks in after you have paid your full deductible for the year.

My current deductible is $1700. So, after I've paid the first 1700, I'll pay 20% of what's left. Since this is the first major medical issue we've had this year, I'll pay 1700 of that 2700, then pay 20% of the remainder ($200). So, out of pocket will be about $1900.

But, if I just avoid using my insurance company, and pay cash (well, I'll use my debit), the doctor knows he'll get paid and not have to wait for months. For that, he charges me the actual rate of $800. He makes the money up front, he has no overhead to deal with the bureaucracy. That's not even a discounted rate.

Sound insane? You betcha! Which should tell us that the federal government + insurance companies are fucking us all up the ass with no lube and just a dash of sand. And what was our BIG FIX? The fed now REQUIRES us to purchase from insurance companies! Ta DA!!!!!!!

Insanity.

Pasa

[Alaskan Couple]

Umm...The subject of this thread is an alternative to insurance which is 100% about charity. Did you miss that?

Well actually it's not. The "Christian charity" described in the OP is actually more of a club or co-op for the "eligible" (e.g. those that subscribe to the clubs rules only need apply). Now, the "charities will be used as a means for the "members" to avoid contributing to the health of the nation.

I will not be shamed for disagreeing with the president, no matter who that happens to be. I disagree with him precisely because he has done what he has done. Further, calling the Republicans obstructionist is to point out the sliver in your neighbor's eye while ignoring the beam in yours. If you want to get into finger pointing down party lines, we can do that. You will not like the result, however. That sort of conversation never ends well, and I'd prefer it if we stopped it right now.

Calm yourself. I never pointed you out or addressed anything to you personally. I think I referred to "Republican extremists". Now if you self identify with that, so be it. But please don't threaten me with the results of some imagined conversation we might (but won't) have.

As for universal healthcare: it is not the job of the government to provide healthcare. It is further not the job of the government to force me to purchase a product i know is faulty.

Well, I guess I'm more inclined to accept the reality of the modern world where the majority of advanced nations have decided that the overall health and well being of the populace is the governments job. As to the Republican forced compromise to "force us to buy a product" from the very same powerful corporations that have been screwing us for years - yeah, that sucks! I would much prefer having a one source system managed by the government. (you know, the same guys who manage the nations armed forces, and interstate road systems and do a fairly adequate job at it?)

Want to know how to fix healthcare? Get the fed out of it. Between underpayment for medicare/medicaid, overlapping (and often contradictory) regulations, and the FDA making drugs more expensive, it became a bloody mess. And that ignores that 37 states already had medical coverage for the poor (it's not the poor that have medical problems...its the lower middle class).

I agree that many of the nation's poorest do have adequate healthcare - and the reason? It's because they have government sponsored plans. But the just "sort-of poor", and those in the mid income classes (the working poor)? Well,they are mere pawns...mere fodder to feed the corporate machines we call insurance companies. Of all the entities you listed as the cause for our current health care crisis, you failed to mention the one that in fact causes the biggest problem. This seems to always be the Republican solution to everything - just let the "free market" take care of it. There is no "free market" when you're talking about multi-national corporations - they control and rig the market. That's why I disagree with the ultra-conservative solution.

I have a ton of problems with the "universal" healthcare. None of them are because I'm "evil" or because I want kids to be without proper care. All of them are because I a: don't think this solves the problem, and b: don't think it's the fed's job to solve it.

Funny, I just read another post of yours where you said you didn't really care about those who couldn't afford to pay for their own healthcare, so long as you could pay yours??? Frankly, in a nation as large and complex as ours I don't think there is a good solution. All I know is that I have first hand knowledge of the pure evil that insurance companies are. Sadly, the Republicans forced the passage of a compromise that basically enables them to continue destroying the good people of this nation.



Finally, we have something to agree upon. This alternative to an insurance company these Christians are setting up is doing exactly what you posted. Thanks for pointing it out.

Actually it's not.

I am well aware of this group. They are not new on the scene and the program has been in place for a number of years. It's a closed club whose "charity" only reaches to those who meet a narrow set of criteria. Jesus said; "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." He didn't say, "Do unto those who you like...or, those who believe just like you...or, to those who belong to your group...etc." I believe we are a nation comprised of all of the people who dwell here. Therefore, if these folks want to set up a charity to only help their own...well okay. But, that should not exempt them from contributing their fair share of support for the nation as a whole. A similar situation would be if an elitist group only wants to support the few roads they use - or their own private school, or any such community wide need. A nation that follows that separatist path is one that is doomed to disintegrate under the fractures.

Finally, since you decided that I was talking to you, let me say this too you; All I can ask, and hope for, is that all people will avoid the extreme fringes of any political group. The truth never lies on the fringes. A "leaders" worth and validity can be judged by the fruit they produce. Does the fruit have a spirit of truth and peace about it - or is it self serving and divisive and full of negative energy? If your happy and satisfied with the conservative agenda, then go in peace and I wish you (and your great-grandchildren) well.

Pasa

See comments in red above....

[Pasadenacpl2]

The only thing they are exempted from is purchasing health insurance. Considering how fascist it is to require us to purchase this product, I'm all for it.

Pasa

[MarieDelta]

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Ability and desire are two different things. EVERYONE has the ability to live debt free. It simply is a matter of saying 'no.' Not everyone makes good choices. I'm ok with that. What I'm not ok with is making good choices and then paying for other people who do not.



I disagree with this.

There are several cases where living debt free isnt possible.

If you experience an accident and are taken to the hospital.

If you have a mental illness.

If you get cancer or some other disease.

Just my opinion, of course...

FWIW both parties suck, and dont swallow...