Classical World and Sexuality (Ancient Rome thread contd.)

[RobUK]

Hi All

These are just a few thoughts going around my head and just want to put them out there... You might (or might not) agree...

As a Classics/Mediaeval History student, I know as a fact that, back then, most men would have a proper relationship with a women, then also have relationships with male friends, not in a romantic sense, but sexually, sometimes. This was not seen as cheating, or even as anything other than normal male bonding. The boundaries for friendship, the definitions of fidelity/infidelity, just seemed 'different'. This was also against a complete lack of homophobia or labels such as 'straight', 'gay', or 'bi'.

Then, when the Roman Empire became Christian in 325 (with Emperor Constantine I's declaration at The First Council of Niceae), this began to be frowned upon. After almost 1000yrs of largely homophobic monotheistic culture, this lifestyle has (more or less) disappeared.

This Christian domination of Western Society seems now to be drawing to an end. Not that religion is dying out, or Atheism being triumphant. but in the past 10 or 20 yrs, we no longer assume that anyone who is of a particular ethnic appearance is automatically Christian, or Muslim, or whatever. It is normal now to ask someone if they're Christian, Atheist, Jewish, Muslim, etc.

Does this end of Christian hegemony mean a future return to the same attitudes toward sexuality that were prevalent before the Christianization of The Roman Empire?

[darkeyes]

Hi All

It is normal now to ask someone if they're Christian, Atheist, Jewish, Muslim, etc.



I don't dissent from the general tenor of your post.. but are people really so rude in your part of the world? It isn't something I would ever dream of asking anyone and not many up here would either.. not as a general rule apart from a few bigotted dinosaurs who are left over from Scotland's historical Catholic/Protestant divide... I do hope you're wrong in that..

[jamieknyc]

That isn't entirely accurate: homosexuality in Greece and Rome meant what we could call pedophilia. It was normally expected to end when the boy reached adulthood, and particualrly in Rome, adult homosexuality was considered deeply shameful, especially being a 'bottom.'

People today get a false impression from the works of Plato, who was a homosexual. Reading the works of Plato gives the same sort of impression that some future age would ahev if its main source of knowledge about homosexuality in our time was a copy of the Village Voice.

[RobUK]

I only meant they ask IF it is relevant! I didn't mean people go around asking people (this is Birmingham, not Nazi Germany - people aren't required to wear yellow stars on their clothes, or carry papers around)...
;)

[RobUK]

That isn't entirely accurate: homosexuality in Greece and Rome meant what we could call pedophilia.

The practice you refer to was called Pederasty - not the same as Pedophilia...

This isn't what I was referring to... Pederasty was only practiced by a small minority - trainee soldiers with senior soldiers, young boys being schooled by more senior tutors (who were considered 'learned' enough to be allowed to practice such behaviour).... I was talking about consenting adults in society at large...

[jamieknyc]

The practice you refer to was called Pederasty - not the same as Pedophilia...

This isn't what I was referring to... Pederasty was only practiced by a small minority - trainee soldiers with senior soldiers, young boys being schooled by more senior tutors (who were considered 'learned' enough to be allowed to practice such behaviour).... I was talking about consenting adults in society at large...

Sexuality in the classical world wasn't about consenting adults: the free male citizen was literally the lord and master of the housheold, and had the right to make women, children and slaves 'bend over' at his whim. In fact, especially in Rome, the latter obligation was considered the most shameful aspect of slavery, more so than being unfree.

Homosexual acts between free adult males were considered scandalous and immoral, especially being a 'bottom.' In Rome such acts were illegal and subject to the death penalty, although that was rarely enforced. Lesbianism, on the other, seems to have been absolutely forbidden at all times.

[RobUK]

Between consenting adult males (not children, women, or slaves, which were not considered 'citizens' - this is another issue) were able to practice some sort of sexual relationship, though, without raising any eyebrows.

Admittedly, sodomy was frowned upon. But oral, frottage, and mutual masturbation was not. Emperor Hadrian had a male lover AND a wife. Hadrian's relationship with another man did not seem to cause any controversy, but the fact that they practiced sodomy seemed to.

There are many exceptions to this overall impression (many of which you have raised - e.g. those not considered free citizens, or pederasty, which, as you rightly pointed out, ended when the student became an adult), but the overall subject is factual...

[mikey3000]

Roman Centurions often had slaves who became lovers, with close emotional bonds. These were referred to as his 'pais'. Very common practice.