July 4th

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

For some they merely see this as a day and evening for fun and fireworks, BBQ's and kick back, and that's natural. But for a brief moment tomorrow and tomorrow evening, please take a bit of time and think of who Gave you the freedom that you own today; the freedom to Have that big BBQ, to fire off those fireworks with your kids and family, and who made it possible for you to enjoy the individual freedoms that you live every day.

If you love your freedom, please Thank A Veteran. Thank them from the Past, Present, and Future. It was they that gave the most sacred and ultimate sacrifice that Anyone Could give...their lives. Many are Still putting their lives on hold for all of us, so that we can sit in our back yards ain total freedom and enjoy this day. They fight and guard and protect so our children can live a life of freedom, too.
So think about this tomorrow whilst you're enjoying time with friends and loved ones. Whether you thank a Veteran in person, or in Spirit, please do so.
Cat

[DuckiesDarling]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL_K8G6jdHA


I like this better than Billy Ray's version just for the imagery.

Happy Fourth and remember...All gave some, but some gave all.

[kegspoon]

Thanks Cat for posting this. Happy 4th to you and all. Here's a simple thought. For all the democracies out there with constitutions, ours is the only one that promotes the "Persuit of Happiness". remember Persuit is not the same as promise. Think about that while your enjoying your day, then tommorow get back to work!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Vets rock!

[NakedInSeattle]

I agree with what all of you have said. We owe our veterans a huge debt of gratitude for keeping our liberty and protecting our shores. But the 4th is also for us to remember the bravery of our founding fathers as well. If it weren't for the men who risked their fortune, honor, and their lives to create this great nation, we would be speaking with a British accent. And don't forget the brave patriots that fought through hardship, pain, and death to secure the start of this nation.

Today's emphasis shouldn't forget July 4th, 1776.

[tenni]

I think that I like the other happy 4th thread so much better.
I find so many of the words posted here on this thread frightening and disturbing to read.

If you need to leave your own territory to fight for your freedom so frequently, why do you not question your war mongers more before doing so?

Remember for each who gave all there is someone else on the other side of the conflict who makes the same statement.

I wish your country well in finding a better understanding as to what freedom, peace and happiness is.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Tenni, you can say whatever you wish about Me personally, but I'll stand behind my Veterans 100%, any time, anywhere and Will not see them degraded in any form or fashion. There's a saying in the Veterans community, "Freedom has a flavor that the sheltered and protected will never know"

Sheltered and protected meaning those who have never had to fight for it, experiance it, or Lose it. Evidently this applies to you. So I dont think you are qualified to comment.
Every Veteran, whether he/she is from the USA or Canada or where the hell ever else, deserves immense respect, and if you dont respect these men and women, then that's Your dilemma, nobody elses. Unless you've Lived it, you'll never fully understand it, or know it. The Veterans of this country And yours have my utmost respect and affections, and alway shall. If this is disturbing to you, OFW.
At least you Have the freedom to sit there all smug and say what you like. Thats your freedom, and that came from people fighting For the freedom for you to put in your opinions.
Shutting up before I say something I'll regret later.
Cat

[tenni]

Well, Cat
Chill sweetie. I didn't mention anything about what you posted nor your name specifically? Certainly not your name as the ideas are more important than you or me.

Most of my freedoms came from a very different approach than you and your's. I am however concerned about my freedoms under our present regime.

I commend you for supporting the best care possible for your veterans but do not see that as having much to do with what else has been posted. Much of what was posted reflects propaganda and confused thinking from where I sit.

The use of the word "war on" in your society reflects war mongering. Now, you have a "War on the gulf oil". Very aggressive language imo.

I find the use of the word "freedom" by many in your society confusing and just so much BS shovelling.

[darkeyes]

Cat..where did Tenni mention respect or disrespect for vets whasoever? He simply asked Americans to question why so many of their young men and women are sent abroad to risk their lives and that is a laudable thing for people to do... far too many are sacrificed because we do not ask those questions, and protest those with which we disagree as powerfully as we should and we allow our Governments to do with us what they will.. the American colonists fought a war against my country to stop their political masters doing what they will with those colonies and to ultimately become their own political masters. It is more complex than that, but its what most Americans believed at the time and why they fought the war. That is why you celebrate this day.. He also reminded you that people of other nations with whom you have been and are in conflict themselves believe themselves to be right in their cause.. that they too should ask the same questions of their political and religious masters is undeniable, but in reminding you of that I see no disprespect for your veterans or anyone else.

So please don't get too touchy with Tenni for encouraging you to do what the founding fathers of your country and more importantly those who fought and died in your revolution believed Americans should.. people died for you to be able to do that, and it is to honour their name that Americans question those who run the place when their young men and women are sent abroad to fight wars .... those who fail to question their government why, do themselves an injustice and show a disrespect to those who will fight and die in those conflicts..

[citystyleguy]

okay, we have done good and we have done bad, and everything inbetween, welcome to the world of politics, diplomacy, trading blocks, etc. sufficient to say that no nation-state can escape the glare of introspection!

however, getting back on track; from the depth of my mind, body, and soul to those that have given their all on the battlefields of our nation, against others, and against ourselves, a prayer of thanks goes to veterans one and all, for all that i have, and the knowledge of the price that is paid by the soldier on those battlefields. ...or more simply, thank you!

[tenni]

Cityguy
Are there better or more important things to do for a Vet other than say thank you? (all though that might make them feel good)

What can we tangibly do?

I removed a post about a US refugee to my country. He served four years in Iraq in the US military and was released. They have recalled him and he refuses to be sent back. He has come to Canada. I understand that there is some small print permitting your government to force people back into service. Is that just and fair? Should people not be "doing" something to stop such actions? Where is his freedom to say no?

[just4mefc]

Something to ponder on your national holiday. (since this is really a Vet thread)

How can you help these US veterans?

The other day, there was a story in (I think) the Globe and Mail or the National Post. I just scanned it and can not find it. Not a lot of press is being given to US military veterans but here is what is going on as I recall. He is not the only one.

A US soldier spent four years in and out of Iraq. He was released from the US military only to be recalled after serving his term. He did not want to go back to Iraq. (I guess that he didn't know about the small print clause ). He has come to Canada and is pleading as a refugee.
There have been others who have done similar things and it was not released how many US vets are taking this route.

During the early years of US occupation of Iraq, a US soldier deserted the US military due to what he saw in Iraq. This was long before info was being released such as Abu Ghab(whatever). He claimed that innocent Iraqis were being shot by US military on the instructions of their superiors. He could not deal with such behaviour and refused to be sent back. He was making claims as a refugee and a conscientous objector(or some such thing) Canada denied his refugee status unlike the VietNam US deserter refugees. With our present nasty regime, I can not see those US people who are now seeking asylum being permitted in to Canada as a refugee. He will be sent to the US to deal with him. I realize that I may not be using the correct terms. I also know that there was a movie about something like this. It is still going on.

How can you help such Vets? This doesn't seem fair or just to me at least.

Saying thanks to a vet with words is not as powerful as stopping mistreatment of your Vets (imo)

Freedom? Justice? No country is immune to infringements of these ideals.

Tenni we currently have a volunteer military and as such this is a different situation then the various Vietnam scenarios. When you join the US military you are obligated to a 6 year enlistment. During times of peace this is usually 4 years active and 2 years in the reserves. However during times of war this can be extended to a 6 year active status. So when you say a man served his 4 years and now wants protection, well sadly he is not entitled to such protection under his military contract. He is technically a deserter and not a refugee. So your government is not acting in some outrageous way by sending him back.

But more to the point of the thread...

Today thank a vet for their commitment to their country. Nowhere did she say and "boy oh boy am I glad we send them out to die, I really hope we have more wars for our young people to die in" At no point did she say she was pro war.

So in in reality you have high jacked the thread. At best it is in poor taste on someones birthday celebration to berate them for their mistakes. Whether they are right or wrong is irrelevant, this is not the day to bring it up.

Happy to have this debate later in the week if you like but for now Dear foreign Friends, please just wish us a Happy Birthday.
:grouphug:

[Pasadenacpl2]

When someone goes to Canada to escape the possibility of doing one's duty they ar enot refugees. They are deserters. May he never have need to come back. We execute deserters.

He knew his obligation before signing up. He ran from it. He deserves no comfort, no respect. Just like every coward who ran to Canada during Nam. The sad irony is that it was soldiers who did their duty who got spit on and not the gutless bastards who turned on their nation.

As for help, our soldiers don't need your kind of help, Tenni

Pasa

[DuckiesDarling]

You know this is ridiculous and fast belongs to the "silly things we fight over"

This is a board for a lot of different countries and I am getting more than a bit tired of the anti us sentiment from always the same few posters on this board.

A simple thread reminding us that our very nation was founded by Vets who fought for the Constitution and what makes America, America the Beautiful. And it's turned into yet another slamming ground. That's the problem with this board, everyone seems to want to take issue with any simple statement. We have some declaring people are wrong, it's not wrong to have an opinion, it's wrong to try and force the opinion on others. When you start trying that you become no better than the very things you try to slam. Now off to have some BBQ at my parents. I sincerely hope I come back to a dead debate and read nothing more than simple "happy birthday, America". :2cents:

[lovescum2]

Well, Cat
Chill sweetie. I didn't mention anything about what you posted nor your name specifically? Certainly not your name as the ideas are more important than you or me.

Most of my freedoms came from a very different approach than you and your's. I am however concerned about my freedoms under our present regime.

I commend you for supporting the best care possible for your veterans but do not see that as having much to do with what else has been posted. Much of what was posted reflects propaganda and confused thinking from where I sit.

The use of the word "war on" in your society reflects war mongering. Now, you have a "War on the gulf oil". Very aggressive language imo.

I find the use of the word "freedom" by many in your society confusing and just so much BS shovelling.

i ONLY HAVE ONE THING TO SAY TO YOU, WHO THE F*CK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?

If it wasn't for us "War mongers" as you called it, most all of Europe would be under the Nazi's still to this day! or under the kaiser from the first world war.

Everyone hates the person that helps them in a time of need and you prove my point. Ungrateful is the way I see it.

Tenni I never said anything about your EXTREME views before, but you piss me off spouting Bullsh*t like that. Your the type of Assh*le that needs his butt kick everyday just to shut him up.


Sorry to all the people that had to read this to, but crap like that has no place here on this day when so many of my fellow countryman have given everything they had (their lives) so YOU could be safe.

Tenni if you don't like us fine, if you don't agree thats fine too.....But by God on a day like this SHUT YOUR F*CKING pie hole for once.

[gfofbiguy]

For some they merely see this as a day and evening for fun and fireworks, BBQ's and kick back, and that's natural. But for a brief moment tomorrow and tomorrow evening, please take a bit of time and think of who Gave you the freedom that you own today; the freedom to Have that big BBQ, to fire off those fireworks with your kids and family, and who made it possible for you to enjoy the individual freedoms that you live every day.

If you love your freedom, please Thank A Veteran. Thank them from the Past, Present, and Future. It was they that gave the most sacred and ultimate sacrifice that Anyone Could give...their lives. Many are Still putting their lives on hold for all of us, so that we can sit in our back yards ain total freedom and enjoy this day. They fight and guard and protect so our children can live a life of freedom, too.
So think about this tomorrow whilst you're enjoying time with friends and loved ones. Whether you thank a Veteran in person, or in Spirit, please do so.
Cat

Happy Independence Day!!! THANK YOU to our Veterans and their families for all they have done and all their sacrifices!!! Have fun and be safe everyone!!

(yes, I've read all of the previous posts on this, but am choosing to ignore them for now).

The following link is one of my favorite songs (it always makes me tear up) and I really like the video/slide show accompanying it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q65KZIqay4E

[just4mefc]

To all my fellow Americans,

As I said to Tenni, I am more then happy to have this debate on another day. His views rather right or wrong can wait for another time. Lets not be of such weak ego as to need to go to war over such a thing. He was insensitive in his timing but non of this is worth all this hatred....

So Happy Birthday USA

[tenni]

If this thread is not about promoting US government propaganda, why was it's original message not posted on the original thread started July 2?

Most of us do not post about our country's birthday? Let alone twice.

You US people are not chatting amongst yourselves and reinforcing your beliefs in your myths. The blood of the dead that your country killed is immense. Stop blindly sending your people out of your country to kill the rest of us and then claiming that it is for your freedom and protection.

[DuckiesDarling]

If this thread is not about promoting US government propaganda, why was it's original message not posted on the original thread started July 2?

Most of us do not post about our country's birthday? Let alone twice.

You US people are not chatting amongst yourselves and reinforcing your beliefs in your myths. The blood of the dead that your country killed is immense. Stop blindly sending your people out of your country to kill the rest of us and then claiming that it is for your freedom and protection.

That is completely offensive, Tenni. Show me one fucking country in this world that hasn't lost a soldier or civilian in a war or rebellion and I'll show you a country of people so cowed down that they can't shit without asking for permission from whatever despot is in charge at that moment.

[AdamKadmon43]

Here we go again.....

A simple little attempt at honoring veterans turns into a battle of philosophical presuppositions.

[Canticle]

If this thread is not about promoting US government propaganda, why was it's original message not posted on the original thread started July 2?

Most of us do not post about our country's birthday? Let alone twice.

You US people are not chatting amongst yourselves and reinforcing your beliefs in your myths. The blood of the dead that your country killed is immense. Stop blindly sending your people out of your country to kill the rest of us and then claiming that it is for your freedom and protection.

Sighs.......doesn't matter which country the dead are from tenni......their mothers will always weep for their loss. This was unnecessary.

[Long Duck Dong]

Cityguy
Are there better or more important things to do for a Vet other than say thank you? (all though that might make them feel good)

What can we tangibly do?


give them a hug and a kiss on the cheek....... cos their war is not over...... it never will be..... they have to run the gauntlet of anti war protests and activists.... the government bureaucrats that were happy to pay for a war, but not for the vets rehab and on going struggle when they come home..... the constant psychs and doctors and tests etc...... and the stigma of being a vet.....

yet, we enjoy their legacy.... our freedom.... our rights.... our present.......

god bless the vets and thank you..... without you we would not have what we have...... a future......

as for you tenni.... you are very lucky you have not served in the forces.... cos friendly fire is not always a accident......

[Pasadenacpl2]

If this thread is not about promoting US government propaganda, why was it's original message not posted on the original thread started July 2?

Most of us do not post about our country's birthday? Let alone twice.

You US people are not chatting amongst yourselves and reinforcing your beliefs in your myths. The blood of the dead that your country killed is immense. Stop blindly sending your people out of your country to kill the rest of us and then claiming that it is for your freedom and protection.

I think you need to shut the fuck up now. "You US people"? Really?

Pasa

[goldenfinger]

What has 4 July got to do with vets. No vets fought for the American Independence.
Iraq war is about OIL, nothing else.
Why is it only americans has to remind them self of their "freedom", no other country in the western world has to do that.
Sometime, I take great pleasure in seeing some of you destroying each other with your rights, right to bare arms and say that you like. I know of no other civilized country who behalves like that.
Happy Day

[DuckiesDarling]

What has 4 July got to do with vets. No vets fought for the American Independence.
Iraq war is about OIL, nothing else.
Why is it only americans has to remind them self of their "freedom", no other country in the western world has to do that.
Sometime, I take great pleasure in seeing some of you destroying each other with your rights, right to bare arms and say that you like. I know of no other civilized country who behalves like that.
Happy Day

Hmmm let's see.... if not for the soldiers of the Continental Army and the wisdom of the Continental Congress, America would never have been born back in 1776. And the people who fought in that war are referred to as VETS, get the picture.... not the people who stick thermometers up a dog's ass but veterans. And they should be remembered on our birthday, and we remind ourselves of Freedom as well as the fact that freedom isn't free. Guess you wouldn't know about that... Botany Bay ring any bells..

[Pasadenacpl2]

Many nations celebrate their independence day. Hell, Mexico does it twice (well, Mexico does it once on Septiembre de 16, and the beer companies do it again on Cinco De Mayo).

And since this is a US based board, I suggest that if you don't like it, there must be a board that serves the bi community in NZ that you could go to. You most certainly wouldn't have to put up with such arrogance from Americans there.

And, just as a side note. The 'war for oil' argument is usually my first litmus test indicator of someone who doesn't think. If we were there for the oil, we would not be having the oil problem we're having now, and we'd have siezed the oil fields a loooooong time ago. Facts...they are such an inconvenience.

Pasa

[DuckiesDarling]

Actually the board is based out of Canada. But I really think that the people who have issues with the US should brush up a bit on their facts before they start spouting crap that is gonna get called on by every American and knowledgeable person in other countries on this board.

[Long Duck Dong]

What has 4 July got to do with vets. No vets fought for the American Independence.
Iraq war is about OIL, nothing else.
Why is it only americans has to remind them self of their "freedom", no other country in the western world has to do that.
Sometime, I take great pleasure in seeing some of you destroying each other with your rights, right to bare arms and say that you like. I know of no other civilized country who behalves like that.
Happy Day

remember that when the next anzac day comes around....... that day where nz and australia pay tribute to the vets and the fallen of ww1 and ww2 and other conflicts......

there is a difference between the finger pointers and the honourable...... its a difference that is similar to the australians bowling underarm in a cricket match a good number of years ago.....

maybe you would like to stand with the white flag waving *hero * of canada.... at the next vets memorial service.... and wave and smile.....

[lovescum2]

Sorry had to change my response, but tenni why do you want us to attack you, your doing it on purpose and you know it...Learn some history not that back alley crap you spout off that has only one objective and thats to get people like me to want to hurt you. I have lost many family and friends defending your freedoms, yes thats right your freedoms. Think about who saved you country mate, if we had not you'd be saying Heil Hitler right now. you know what, you can't deny that can you, you may want to try but you can't.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Ok loves. This thread has been corrupted enough for one year. Those of who have Lived the experiances of loss understand. You'd think someone Older than me would understand this. I named no names just then, so we'll let that dog lie.
Just remember our Veterans and founding Fathers in our own ways, and take pride in this fact.
Hugs to all you Veterans and supporters out there. Muah!
Cat

[lovescum2]

Of course Cat you are correct as always :) I won't respond to him any more. But if you don't like my post now you should have see it before I changed it...hehe

[darkeyes]

And since this is a US based board, I suggest that if you don't like it, there must be a board that serves the bi community in NZ that you could go to.


Pasa

Pasa..I have told you particularly once, and it has been pointed out by DD on this thread and by others over time, that this is NOT a US based site.. it is Canadian so I suggest you remember that in future. Criticisms of the US or what it does I agree is not appropriate on this thread.. but to moan about something which is simply not the case and point someone to go elsewhere is equally not appropriate.. the site is open to all, no matter where they live, and I suggest you remember that too...

[coyotedude]

Last I checked, Canada has veterans too. Canadians have fought their fair share of battles and have their fair share of dead to mourn. And Canadians continue to fight and die for their country to this very day.

I have great respect for Canadian veterans, even as I honor US veterans. Canadians and Americans have fought side by side in two world wars and many other conflicts.

Since 2002, Canada has lost 150 members of its armed forces in Afghanistan. At least four Canadian citizens have also perished in the fighting. The latest loss was 6/26/2010:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/afghanistan/casualties/list.html

Reality check.

[kegspoon]

To Tenni and all that argue with him. This is a celebration of an IDEAL. An ideal that works for the individual, not governments or groups. Go back and read my first post. This is a celebration of "Life , liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness". How we arrive, protect, and advance it will always be debated. The arguements I've just read are from caring individuals that should celebrate the fact that they just had that debate openly on a bisexual website. Nobody is going to come fijnd you, punish or arrest you for doing so. This is what I celebrate on the 4th of July. I admonish all to read the Declaratoin of Independence, read it slowly and thoughtfully. Its amazing!

[citystyleguy]

To Tenni and all that argue with him. This is a celebration of an IDEAL. An ideal that works for the individual, not governments or groups. Go back and read my first post. This is a celebration of "Life , liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness". How we arrive, protect, and advance it will always be debated. The arguements I've just read are from caring individuals that should celebrate the fact that they just had that debate openly on a bisexual website. Nobody is going to come fijnd you, punish or arrest you for doing so. This is what I celebrate on the 4th of July. I admonish all to read the Declaratoin of Independence, read it slowly and thoughtfully. Its amazing!

...and i am, every moment of every day; as to reading, i have several books on my desk at home, and at the office, of which includes the declaration of independence, one of the most profound statements ever written or proclaimed. and to protect it, needs an activist, involved citizenery!

[AdamKadmon43]

I find so many of the words posted here on this thread frightening and disturbing to read.



I sometimes think that what tenni really needs is a spine-tingling BJ.

Which I would be delighted to provide him with if he would just sit down, shut up and hold still long enough.

[darkeyes]

I sometimes think that what tenni really needs is a spine-tingling BJ.

Which I would be delighted to provide him with if he would just sit down, shut up and hold still long enough.

Actually Adam darlin'.. Tenni's problem is not needin a BJ.. if 'e did 'e wud go out an get 1 for 'imsel wivout ne help from u.. 'e dus sumtimes ask questions, an pertinent questions at the rong time..an in rong place..an hav told 'im that..but me ratha likes Tenni.. 'e has a brain in 'is head an dusn jus sit bak an allow 'is country's govt 2 roll ova 'im unquestioninly.. a gud thing.. that 'e asks questions a the US an all is also a gud thing.. God knos me dus it enuff.. prob is not enuff 'mericans do it enuff.. 'e isn always rite.. but 'e is always pertinent..

..an if 'e dusn sit down long enuff thats a gud thing an all.. wer it that more peeps didn sit down long enuff wen they believe they c rongs in the world... an bugga shurrin up.. 2 many r quiet now an it needs peeps like 'im 2 kick up a fuss now n then..

Hav tried 2 avoid commentin on this thread bout Tenni.. an bout how peeps react 2 'im.. jus don feel it approriate, an am sorry that me felt it had 2 b dun.. 'e gets things rong.. Jeez we all do that.. but 'e cares an 'e asks questions an tries 2 b constructive wen 'e comments.. mayb peeps shud jus look at themsels fore they hav a go at 'im or ne 1 else...

1 las thing..every September on me birfday me sits down quiet for a lil bit an don jus contemplate me navel.. 'part from gettin a lil olda.. me sits an thinks a me life an spesh a the previous 12 months.. think wotme has dun an wer me has gone rong n how me cud b betta an wer me has dun things rite an cudda been betta still.... it dusn ruin me birfday.. on contrary..is an important haff hour or so an often helps me c things more clearly.. an the fact that family an m8s usually gimme a gud slaggin bout summat or otha me has dun is parta the tradition.. a birfday is a celebration..is also an opportunity 2 look at yasel try an b betta..

[tenni]

I am sorry if my words have offended some posters but I do not believe in what Cat wrote nor about the direction of the first four posters connection to the US bithday. Canadians do not as a rule write and promote that our veterans have fought for our freedom. I believe that veterans have served my country as have the US veterans served their country. Our military does what they are told to do by our government. This is done whether our government is correct or wrong. There is a difference in the two statements. I believe that some Canadians who have relatives who have died in Afghanistan believe that their relatives have died for their country. Some may use the words die for our freedom but no, Canadians do not use such language generally or think like some of the US posters. We do not connect our freedoms with killing other people. For decades, we have supported our troops serving our country by acting as peace keepers that the UN has asked Canada to go and try to keep fighting factions from killing each other. I consider my present government regime as war mongers and in particular our present PM.

For several years the majority of Canadians have wanted our troops out of Afghanistan. Maybe five or six years at least, polls have shown disapproval. We do not support being in Afghanistan nor believe in being in Afghanistan as just and proper. Due to politics we have remained but our government has publicly stated that we will leave in July, 2011. I do not trust my PM and if/how we will support Afghanistan in trying to improve itself has not been decided. The US has asked us to stay longer as recently as three months ago. Our PM has been forced to say no because our Parliament finally voted over a year and a half ago to leave. Canadians do not connect our troops being in Afghanistan with our freedom. I see such a connection as propaganda and misrepresentation as to what is really going on.

However, Canadians do honour our dead soldiers and have always demanded that the repatriation of our dead soldiers be done very publicly. Our present regime tried to hide the return of our dead soldiers but Canadians and the families demanded that it be shown on television and in our print media. Each and every dead soldier is on our news. Canadians respect our dead soldiers and honour their sacrifice by standing on bridges as their bodies travel down a major highway to be autopsied before being given to their families. They stand on these overpass bridges even in the very, very cold for hours before the bodies pass by. We do show respect without stating that they have died for our freedom. They have died serving our country and doing as the government have instructed them. Many of us do not confuse the two things. Some of us know that it is wrong to be in Afghanistan and that it has nothing to do with our freedom or protecting Canada.

That is how I/we differ. We are very far apart as to how we celebrate and think about our countries' birthdays. Again, I am sorry if I have offended you but I was offended by such words and still am horrified by such thinking. I know that our soldiers are killing innocent people in Afghanistan. I know that it is wrong to support Kharzai and supporting his corrupt regime has nothing to do with my freedoms nor protecting Canada.(or the US) If anything, supporting Kharzai is a contradiction about freedom, democracy and justice.

[Long Duck Dong]

I am sorry if my words have offended some posters but I do not believe in what Cat wrote. Canadians do not as a rule write and promote that our veterans have fought for our freedom. I believe that veterans have served my country as have the US veterans served their country. Our military does what they are told to do by our government. This is done whether our government is correct or wrong. There is a difference in the two statements. I believe that some Canadians who have relatives who have died in Afghanistan believe that their relatives have died for their country. Some may use the words die for our freedom but no, Canadians do not use such language generally or think like some of the US posters. We do not connect our freedoms with killing other people. For decades, we have supported our troops serving our country by acting as peace keepers that the UN has asked Canada to go and try to keep fighting factions from killing each other. I consider my present government regime as war mongers and in particular our present PM.

For several years the majority of Canadians have wanted our troops out of Afghanistan. Maybe five or six years at least, polls have shown disapproval. We do not support being in Afghanistan nor believe in being in Afghanistan as just and proper. Due to politics we have remained but our government has publicly stated that we will leave in July, 2011. I do not trust my PM and if/how we will support Afghanistan in trying to improve itself has not been decided. The US has asked us to stay longer as recently as three months ago. Our PM has been forced to say no because our Parliament finally voted over a year and a half ago to leave. Canadians do not connect our troops being in Afghanistan with our freedom. I see such a connection as propaganda and misrepresentation as to what is really going on.

However, Canadians do honour our dead soldiers and have always demanded that the repatriation of our dead soldiers be done very publicly. Our present regime tried to hide the return of our dead soldiers but Canadians and the families demanded that it be shown on television and in our print media. Each and every dead soldier is on our news. Canadians respect our dead soldiers and honour their sacrifice by standing on bridges as their bodies travel down a major highway to be autopsied before being given to their families. They stand on these overpass bridges even in the very, very cold for hours before the bodies pass by. We do show respect without stating that they have died for our freedom. They have died serving our country and doing as the government have instructed them. Many of us do not confuse the two things. Some of us know that it is wrong to be in Afghanistan and that it has nothing to do with our freedom or protecting Canada.

That is how I/we differ. We are very far apart as to how we celebrate and think about our countries' birthdays. Again, I am sorry if I have offended you but I was offended by such words and still am horrified by such thinking. I know that our soldiers are killing innocent people in Afghanistan. I know that it is wrong to support Kharzai and supporting his corrupt regime has nothing to do with my freedoms nor protecting Canada.(or the US) If anything, supporting Kharzai is a contradiction about freedom, democracy and justice.

LOL..... sitting at your home, sipping tea and watching the world at war ???????

I quess we know who is not covering our backs while we are looking after your ass ( conscription crisis of 1917 )

[DuckiesDarling]

I am sorry if my words have offended some posters but I do not believe in what Cat wrote nor about the following four posters immediately after her post. Canadians do not as a rule write and promote that our veterans have fought for our freedom. I believe that veterans have served my country as have the US veterans served their country. Our military does what they are told to do by our government. This is done whether our government is correct or wrong. There is a difference in the two statements. I believe that some Canadians who have relatives who have died in Afghanistan believe that their relatives have died for their country. Some may use the words die for our freedom but no, Canadians do not use such language generally or think like some of the US posters. We do not connect our freedoms with killing other people. For decades, we have supported our troops serving our country by acting as peace keepers that the UN has asked Canada to go and try to keep fighting factions from killing each other. I consider my present government regime as war mongers and in particular our present PM.

For several years the majority of Canadians have wanted our troops out of Afghanistan. Maybe five or six years at least, polls have shown disapproval. We do not support being in Afghanistan nor believe in being in Afghanistan as just and proper. Due to politics we have remained but our government has publicly stated that we will leave in July, 2011. I do not trust my PM and if/how we will support Afghanistan in trying to improve itself has not been decided. The US has asked us to stay longer as recently as three months ago. Our PM has been forced to say no because our Parliament finally voted over a year and a half ago to leave. Canadians do not connect our troops being in Afghanistan with our freedom. I see such a connection as propaganda and misrepresentation as to what is really going on.

However, Canadians do honour our dead soldiers and have always demanded that the repatriation of our dead soldiers be done very publicly. Our present regime tried to hide the return of our dead soldiers but Canadians and the families demanded that it be shown on television and in our print media. Each and every dead soldier is on our news. Canadians respect our dead soldiers and honour their sacrifice by standing on bridges as their bodies travel down a major highway to be autopsied before being given to their families. They stand on these overpass bridges even in the very, very cold for hours before the bodies pass by. We do show respect without stating that they have died for our freedom. They have died serving our country and doing as the government have instructed them. Many of us do not confuse the two things. Some of us know that it is wrong to be in Afghanistan and that it has nothing to do with our freedom or protecting Canada.

That is how I/we differ. We are very far apart as to how we celebrate and think about our countries' birthdays. Again, I am sorry if I have offended you but I was offended by such words and still am horrified by such thinking. I know that our soldiers are killing innocent people in Afghanistan. I know that it is wrong to support Kharzai and supporting his corrupt regime has nothing to do with my freedoms nor protecting Canada.(or the US) If anything, supporting Kharzai is a contradiction about freedom, democracy and justice.

I'd say apology accepted but your apology is another offense. America's birthday is a day we honor people who fought for the right to be free from taxation without representation. It's a day we also now remember the high price for freedom and the way each and every right is paid for in someone's blood. Some of us honor the veterans the entire year but the whole nation remembers on Veteran's Day, Memorial Day and Fourth of July so on and so forth.

Your insistence on spouting your political beliefs to deliberately cause controversy has not gone unnoticed. Yeah Canada is gonna start moving troops out by July 2011, what a coincidence... so is the US as of the last few months. It's a goal and one we hope to make. Many Americans want our boys home but we face reality. That's something you might want to face. If we just pack up and run they will follow us here and it will spill over into Canada. So make sure you remember the people who only died for your country and not your freedom ... when you suddenly don't have it anymore under the wonderful Taliban regime.

And as for being horrified at what you saw in this thread??? What did you think you'd see when you clicked on a thread from a Vets Supporter about an American holiday celebrating Freedom? You could have easily avoided all of this by simply not reading the thread and very much by not instigating in both threads.

[darkeyes]

LOL..... sitting at your home, sipping tea and watching the world at war ???????

I quess we know who is not covering our backs while we are looking after your ass ( conscription crisis of 1917 )

Watching the world fighting a war in which you do not believe is a much better option than what by inference you suggest Duckie... it is an unpleasant option because it need not have been...

..and just whose arse are you looking after, Duckie? ..and just whose back are you covering?

Tenni has made a statement of what he believes, and with a little tweaking it concurs with my own opinions on Afghanistan and the war. I suggest if you truly believe in the freedoms that so many are supposedly dying for maybe you should think again. His point about Karzai is very pertinent indeed and I doubt very much whether he and his ilk care one whit for how many American, British or Canadians die to keep him in power, or for the freedoms in which you and others claim to believe.. and I doubt whether the Nato governments involved care one which whether he does or not...

[Long Duck Dong]

Watching the world fighting a war in which you do not believe is a much better option than what by inference you suggest Duckie... it is an unpleasant option because it need not have been...

..and just whose arse are you looking after, Duckie? ..and just whose back are you covering?

Tenni has made a statement of what he believes, and with a little tweaking it concurs with my own opinions on Afghanistan and the war. I suggest if you truly believe in the freedoms that so many are supposedly dying for maybe you should think again. His point about Karzai is very pertinent indeed and I doubt very much whether he and his ilk care one whit for how many American, British or Canadians die to keep him in power, or for the freedoms in which you and others claim to believe.. and I doubt whether the Nato governments involved care one which whether he does or not...

dark eyes, do you have a military service record, cos I do.......

I know and understand what goes through the head of soldiers.... they are the ones dying out there.... not the protestors and pacifists that are safe at home decrying the war .....

if you and tenni feel so strongly about military personnel dying in a war that doesn't need to be fought, then enlist in a non com role and assist in getting the men and women home alive...... unless...... its safer at home, posting in a net forum about how wrong war is, while others are over there, looking out for each other......

I have served... not for freedom or my country, but to support the men and women that also serve..... cos thats what they see..... not duty and honour.... but a mate in need of help and they go the distance for their mates.....

[darkeyes]

dark eyes, do you have a military service record, cos I do.......

I know and understand what goes through the head of soldiers.... they are the ones dying out there.... not the protestors and pacifists that are safe at home decrying the war .....

if you and tenni feel so strongly about military personnel dying in a war that doesn't need to be fought, then enlist in a non com role and assist in getting the men and women home alive...... unless...... its safer at home, posting in a net forum about how wrong war is, while others are over there, looking out for each other......

I have served... not for freedom or my country, but to support the men and women that also serve..... cos thats what they see..... not duty and honour.... but a mate in need of help and they go the distance for their mates.....

The idea of pacifism Duckie, is not 2 join the army in what you call a non com role and therefore release someone else to do the fighting, killing and dying.. it is to try and persaude the world that there are better ways to settle disputes between peoples and ideas which do not involve killing and fighting and dying. So why would either tenni and I do something which in itself helps perpetuate the conflict of which we disapprove?

.. and its arguable whether or not we are safe back at home.. there have been enough incidents in my country alone which puts that claim in doubt.. we have been riding our luck.. and one day, just like 7/7 in London our luck is likely to run out.. and it is also to avoid people being killed or maimed in just such attacks, that I am a pacifist..

Like many, you express contempt for those of us who do not like this war, or any war for that matter.. as if we are somehow less because we have the temerity to believe in a different way and in different things.. the American revolution occurred just so people like me, and Tenni could think and speak different things without fear or favour, could live in a different way and believe in different ideals.. those are the freedoms that the American revolution tried to give to the world and the ideals of that revolution I honour.. that Tenni and I are not American should not matter for these ideals are for all people.. I only wish that many of those for whom those ideals are enshrined in their laws and constitution believe in them as passionately as I do... I only wish that many of those of other nations also believed in those same ideals and principles.

[Long Duck Dong]

The idea of pacifism Duckie, is not 2 join the army in what you call a non com role and therefore release someone else to do the fighting, killing and dying.. it is to try and persaude the world that there are better ways to settle disputes between peoples and ideas which do not involve killing and fighting and dying. So why would either tenni and I do something which in itself helps perpetuate the conflict of which we disapprove?

.. and its arguable whether or not we are safe back at home.. there have been enough incidents in my country alone which puts that claim in doubt.. we have been riding our luck.. and one day, just like 7/7 in London our luck is likely to run out.. and it is also to avoid people being killed or maimed in just such attacks, that I am a pacifist..

Like many, you express contempt for those of us who do not like this war, or any war for that matter.. as if we are somehow less because we have the temerity to believe in a different way and in different things.. the American revolution occurred just so people like me, and Tenni could think and speak different things without fear or favour, could live in a different way and believe in different ideals.. those are the freedoms that the American revolution tried to give to the world and the ideals of that revolution I honour.. that Tenni and I are not American should not matter for these ideals are for all people.. I only wish that many of those for whom those ideals are enshrined in their laws and constitution believe in them as passionately as I do... I only wish that many of those of other nations also believed in those same ideals and principles.

actually I express contempt for people that have no idea about war or what happens.... they are the people that sit at home and waffle on, without any idea of the true commitment it takes...... and they read their websites and news reports.... that never show the true war of the soldiers and the armed forces personnel....

I am not just refering to the soldiers on the front line..... I am talking about the people like the doctors and nurses that pull exceedingly long shifts battling to save lives, preforming miracles...

a lot of those people return to their homes, to become doctors and nurses in civilian land, the firemen, the police, the civil engineers, trades people..... using the skills they learnt in the forces....
that is something that pacifists will never understand or share in...... yet they will work in buildings created by trained armed forces personnel, they will go to the hospital and seek treatment from doctors and nurses that have served...... pacifists will expect the police to uphold the law and often never be aware that some of the police used to be on the front line......the armed forces also are involved in disaster efforts etc.....

now honestly fran.... how many pacifists and flower holding people do you think it would have taken to stop hitler ???? how many flowers and peace chants ?????

there is a time that fighting is unavoidable.... that war is going to happen..... so how about you go find people like osama bin laden and his crew and tell them that they are expressing themselves the wrong way.... cos I can see that a lot of the us are already getting highly fucked off at the finger pointing...... cos a lot of people are happily avoiding looking at the twin towers when they point fingers at the us.....

so the next time you wanna think I look down on non coms in contempt.... just stop to realise that a lot of the former serving vets, helped rebuilt and create the society you live in and they still do today......
the armed forces is not just about fighting wars....... and when people like the vets are judged by ignorant people,.... its a judgment of a big part of civilian society as well........

that is something a pacifist would not realise and not understand...... and that is why i have contempt for a lot of people........ they are blind to a big part of the truth

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Ok Guys and Gals. This is getting a little too heated. Opinions were expressed, and the holiday is over. It doesnt matter what country whoever is from, we all have our opinions on these things, and thats what freedoms are for. :}
So lets play nice now.
Cat :}

[darkeyes]

actually I express contempt for people that have no idea about war or what happens.... they are the people that sit at home and waffle on, without any idea of the true commitment it takes...... and they read their websites and news reports.... that never show the true war of the soldiers and the armed forces personnel....

I am not just refering to the soldiers on the front line..... I am talking about the people like the doctors and nurses that pull exceedingly long shifts battling to save lives, preforming miracles...

a lot of those people return to their homes, to become doctors and nurses in civilian land, the firemen, the police, the civil engineers, trades people..... using the skills they learnt in the forces....
that is something that pacifists will never understand or share in...... yet they will work in buildings created by trained armed forces personnel, they will go to the hospital and seek treatment from doctors and nurses that have served...... pacifists will expect the police to uphold the law and often never be aware that some of the police used to be on the front line......the armed forces also are involved in disaster efforts etc.....

now honestly fran.... how many pacifists and flower holding people do you think it would have taken to stop hitler ???? how many flowers and peace chants ?????

there is a time that fighting is unavoidable.... that war is going to happen..... so how about you go find people like osama bin laden and his crew and tell them that they are expressing themselves the wrong way.... cos I can see that a lot of the us are already getting highly fucked off at the finger pointing...... cos a lot of people are happily avoiding looking at the twin towers when they point fingers at the us.....

so the next time you wanna think I look down on non coms in contempt.... just stop to realise that a lot of the former serving vets, helped rebuilt and create the society you live in and they still do today......
the armed forces is not just about fighting wars....... and when people like the vets are judged by ignorant people,.... its a judgment of a big part of civilian society as well........

that is something a pacifist would not realise and not understand...... and that is why i have contempt for a lot of people........ they are blind to a big part of the truth

I have never said that you hold non combatants in contempt.. I have said you hold those who believe in a different way and say so in contempt.. those who believe that the Afghan war in tenni's case, or in war period, in my own.. we, you hold in contempt.. that is the point I have been making.. nothing else. You have a point of view I disgree with, but do not hold you or anyone else who believes that war is sometimes necessary in comtempt.. Christ, how can I hold probably 99% of the human population in contempt? We differ and we argue, and that is how we progress and change the world..

I could also argue every other point with you regarding the medics of whatever kind who work and live in civilian life.. relatively few in my country at least, work for or have worked for the military, and even fewer trained by them.. and even fewer serve with them throughout their career.. because they once were enlisted into the military is not relevant to any part of this discussion even although all will have learned from their experience..

My society was built not by the miltary, although it played its part.. my country was overwhelmingly built by ordinary men and women, some of whom at some point in their lives spent time in the army, navy or air force, but it was built by civilians in the main, who sweated blood to make us what we are.. I do not wish to underplay the contribution of soldiers sailors and airmen, but even at the peak of Empire, or in the darkest days of our history, the vast majority of people who built my society were civilian.

If you deem me ignorant, I am sorry for that.. being a civilian, and a pacifist doesn't make me ignorant.. on the contrary.. not being ignorant makes me believe what I do. I loathe the military machine, and its purpose, but not in the main those who serve within it.. most believe what they do is right, and are brave and good human beings who will go to the enth degree to for their country, cause, their service and for their comrades. How can anyone not respect that? But I do not give respect because of what a person is or does.. I do not give respect simply because a person is a veteran... many are not worthy of respect.. James Calley, and those responsible for My Lai were not worthy of respect, British paratroopers responsible for bloody Sunday are not worthy of respect, British and American soldiers responsible for the torture of detained Iraqis are not worthy of respect, American soldiers who slaughtered native Americans in the 18th and 19th centuries, and British who slaughtered Indian, African, native Americans and many other races from the 17th till the 20th centuries I cannot respect, those of any nation responsible the the slaughter of unarmed civilians in any theatre I cannot respect, and I include in that those who bomb markets and offices in the name of cause and belief.. there are many circumstances when I am unable to offer respect to any human being, soldier or civilin.. so respect is not unconditional.. many soldiers are unworthy of it.. simply because they serve or have served does not mean they are worthy of our respect.. what they do and how they conduct themselves determines what, if any, respect they receive.. and that is how it should be..

Finally I have already said why I am a pacifist.. regarding Hitler, there were other ways he could have been stopped.. I and others have written of it in these forums.. ways which did not involve war.. there were reason why he and his came to power and the victorious powers share the responsibilty for it because of Versailles.. the same powers who gave Germany the wherewithall to build their machine.. the Nazis gaining power in Germany was not inevitable.. save for the fact that the victorious powers of 1918 made it so.. we are supposed to be an intelligent species.. with some wit and using our intelligence we could avoid conflict.. unfortunately there are those powerful and greedy bastards who do not want to avoid conflict for it is simply too lucrative.. easy money.. it is much, much more difficult..although infinitely more lucrative to work for and achieve peace.. no conflict is inevitable.. with foresight and with the will it can always be avoided.. even bastards bombing like Al Qaeda can be avoided.. that is why I believe as I do.

[Long Duck Dong]

ok, I think I need to spell this out..... pretty much the whole bloody world has come from war..... the rome empire etc and so on and so on.... so the world as we know it, has evolved from warring........

as for contempt....no I do not have contempt for people.... what I think of the human race is this, the human race is a walking, talking bunch of hypocrites that hide behind their ideals and opinions and talk of truth and peace.... yet.... the human race fights for what they believe in...... be it on the battlefield or in civilian life...... its a part of who we are and I do not separate aspects of ourselves to suit the situation.....
there is a few handfuls of groups that actually practice what they preach in the way of peaceful existence.... like the buddhist monks... and they do it by distancing themselves from society........ the rest of humanity are the people that are fighting for this cause or that cause or their rights etc etc.....
notice the word *FIGHTING *.... not peacefully talking at a garden party.... * FIGHTING *


its human nature to pick and choose what ever they want out of reality to best suit what they believe.... and craft a reality around it..... and thats what they call the truth......

I did notice that you didn't mention the scottish clans that went to war time and time against the british..... and they were some of the bloodiest wars in the uk...... are they not to be respected either ???? or do they not count cos they were not in the military ?????

all the theorising over hitler and how war could have been stopped yadda yadda, is theorising..... the only proof it would have worked, exists in peoples heads.....and opinions.....
deals were offered and ignored by hitler..... so action was taken.....

as for the world, there will never be peace unless the human race stops fighting for what they believe in....... and thats simply not gonna happen.... as the human race can not agree to anything...... they never have been able to and they never will

as for the remark about being ignorant, it was to do with the military service.... there is somethings that come from being in the services that can only be experienced, not taught or shared in a chat at the pub........

[darkeyes]

I practice what I preach every day of my life duckie.. it would be a gross hypocrisy to do otherwise... I dont have the time to reply to all of your post but may come back to it.. but let me pick up on one thing.. because..

..I didnt think I needed to.. I mentioned soldiers of all nations.. my own included... there are many incidents in our history where we can feel ashamed to be Scots.. William Wallace barricading a large group of English soldiers in a barn and burning them to death.. Scottish soldiers (not British) slaughtering men women and children at Glencoe to make a point. Scottish soldiers in the British army after culloden butchering men women and children and burning them out of house and home and depriving them of food.. Scottish soldiers raiding England at varuous times in our history and raping and pillaging, slaughtering anyone that moved whatever their age and gender.. yes and the butchering of men women and children which went on in the highlands and islands during the clan wars .. and indeed in the border country of my own Elliot ancestors.

These events every Scot should feel ashamed about, yet most dont..more they feel aggrieved or strangely proud of the slaughters which were inflicted on human beings.. soldier and civilian alike..... I have no romantic view of my country's history.. Scotland or the United Kingdom..I know far too much about it.. and in part because I do know far too much about it I know just what destruction and death has been caused by soldier and clansman alike.. and why I believe in the things I do.. no Duckie.. I do not excuse my own countrymen and women past and present their shame where it is deserved... they I condemn more strongly than any other because I am of them ..

[tenni]

DD
Regarding your post #39

I've thought about whether I should just put it out there or let it go. It seems that my astonishment and perspective are too offended not to comment. So some of your people may call me evil. Call me anti . Tell me to shut the fuck up. (at the same time protest that you support as one of your great freedoms the freedom of speech btw) I'm sorry but I will comment.

First, the title of the thread makes no reference to Veterans.

With regard to your further feeling offended, I ask you to reflect more carefully on my post #37. In particular, that I have stated that I found the first four posts horrifying.

Let me generalize this a bit so that it may be less abrasive. Country A invades country B on the premise that they feel threatened and unsafe. The people of country A are told that country B is evil. The leaders of country A accuse country B of having some huge weapon that country A is concerned will destroy a friend of country A or maybe even country A. Country A's leaders state that they have proof of such a weapon. Country A goes before the world to ask for support because the world voted to support and gave permission for country A to invade country C just awhile ago. The world sits silently and as a group democratically votes no that there is a need for more time to check for this weapon. Country A invades country B only to find that there is no weapon. Hundreds of thousands of country B's people are killed. A few years later during country's A's birthday, it is claimed that the military personnel should be thanked because they protected the children in their backyards and have saved country A's freedom. Some of the military gave the ultimate sacrifice (by invading country B etc.) so that the citizens could sit in their backyard in total freedom and enjoy the day. Meanwhile the former leaders of country A sit free, safe and some suspected of being more wealthy than before the invasion.

That reads fairly horrifying to me.

[AdamKadmon43]

Darkeyes:

It is very, very difficult to argue with someone who's core beliefs are as noble and commendable as yours.

Suffice it to say that I find it quite paradoxical that such noble and commedable beliefs are generally secured and protected by the bloodshed of others.

[AdamKadmon43]

tenni:

I am in total agreement with you on this country's involvement in Iraq.

And I question our motivation in our involvement in other parts of the world.

But fighting back against those who would throw acid in the faces of little girls for merely wanting to attend school is all the motivation I would need.

[DuckiesDarling]

Tenni,

I posted within the four posts you found so horrifying. What did I post?? A link to a song about soldiers dying for freedom. That video was geared towards American vets yes but the words carry it for every vet of every war. All gave some, some gave all. A simple statement but very true about any soldier who has served in a war whether or not they believed in the war they did their duty and sought to get everybody home.

I am very vocal about the current situation going on with our troops over there. But I had a woman who went back with a 100k bounty on her head, dead or alive, to train police in Iraq. She told me point blank they all know if we don't end it there they will come here. The original reason was valid, there were ties to the terrorist that attacked CIVILIAN targets one of which killed many other countries citizens as well in the World Trade Center. But it has went on too long, the regime of Saddam Hussein and his sons were ended and Iraq was freed. Then we got caught up in helping rebuild what we destroyed so that the people of Iraq didn't suffer too much because of the dictator that was deposed. Then the insurgence in Afghanistan and it has spiraled out of control. Now most Americans want our men and women home. But it has to be done slowly or it will never stop we will just change the fighting ground.

Personally, I'd love it if we had our troops home and ready to defend our own turf against and any all instead of stationed all over the world and leaping to help other nation's in their bid for freedom while people here starve and are still in trailers that were supposed to be good for a few months after Katrina.

But I know that you know Cat is a VETS supporter. She's not hidden her vocation and I know that you seem to take issue with a lot of things she says and does on this board. That's your prerogative, but I maintain if you were horrified..you could have just let it go and stayed out of the thread instead of posting in both threads your thoughts about this one.

Yes, you had a right to post it. But we had a right to post right back to you and let you know how we felt about your post. I have never hidden I support the right to free speech, I even support the WBC's right to spout the crap they spew but I don't have to like it.

And Adam makes a very valid point when he says " Suffice it to say that I find it quite paradoxical that such noble and commedable beliefs are generally secured and protected by the bloodshed of others"

It doesn't matter where you live in the world, someone died so you could live free and be as outspoken as you can. Most often the one's who died were soldiers in defense of home and state. Judge all you want but remember your right to have that opinion was paid for by someone else.

And that's just the way it is. The way it's always been. And unfortunately the way it will always be. Freedom is never free and that is true worldwide. Some give all so that most never have to give.

Now let's agree to disagree and let this thread die as the OP asked.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Wow...what a complete crock of shit. Way to show that you have no clue what actually happened, Tenni.

And, telling you to shut the fuck up isn't arejection of your freedm of speech. You have the right to verbalize how big a douchebag you are. You're just abusing that right.

Remember too, you have the right to say what you wish. That doesn't mean that there are no consequences. Say any of your anti American bullshit to an American. And I don't mean the traitors living in Canada. They don't count.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

Darkeyes:

It is very, very difficult to argue with someone who's core beliefs are as noble and commendable as yours.

Suffice it to say that I find it quite paradoxical that such noble and commedable beliefs are generally secured and protected by the bloodshed of others.

Often it is so Adam..and those conflicts have all left scars and jaundiced how we view those freedoms, and even influences the kind of freedoms we do have.. but most of our freedoms were not won by war at all.. but by ordinary men and women living, working, demonstrating, striking and arguing and fighting as non violently as they were able for the things they believed in.. sometimes I agree there was violence in that struggle, but mostly violence was inflicted upon them, not by them by the great power of state, capital, landowner and aristocracy in their attempt to keep their own absolute power to do what they will.. that we have as much liberty as we do is owed to those ordinary people over centuries who endured so much and struggled so valiantly in the face great cruelty, greed and power at the very least as much as it is to any military victory..

[darkeyes]

Wow...what a complete crock of shit. Way to show that you have no clue what actually happened, Tenni.

And, telling you to shut the fuck up isn't arejection of your freedm of speech. You have the right to verbalize how big a douchebag you are. You're just abusing that right.

Remember too, you have the right to say what you wish. That doesn't mean that there are no consequences. Say any of your anti American bullshit to an American. And I don't mean the traitors living in Canada. They don't count.

Pasa

All human beings count Pasa..even ones you call traitor.. if I believed my country was doing a great wrong, I too would, as I do now actively on a number of issues, including the Afghan war and previously that in Iraq, work against it and its interests. Call me traitor if you wish, but I am no more traitor than any who watch their country do wrong and defend and work to perpetuate that wrong and I would argue much less so. You believe that your cause is right.. so do those who you call traitor.. give me a traitor who lives in accord with his or her principles before I ever take a patriot who has none.

..and as usual you misunderstand people who do not agree with the testament of Pasa.. none of it is anti American..it is anti what many, including me, believe to be a great wrong..

[Pasadenacpl2]

No. They don't count for the very specific thing I was saying, Fran. Sorry. Nice try, but not every one counts for every situation. But, as usual, this is a case of you knowing damn well what I meant but choosing to set it up as something other than what I said. I don't take offense. Happens all the time.

I don't know that you are a traitor. Disagreeing does not make one a traitor. I do know, however, that anyone who fled the US to avoid doing their duty as a citizen IS a traitor and should, at the very least, never be allowed home again. And those that fled to Canada don't count for shit when it comes to testing whether or not Tenni would be willing to spew his Anti-American rhetoric to an American.

And, I don't misunderstand you. I understand you perfectly well. You are a hand holding, pacifist, kumbaya singing, hippy who has the temerity to protest the very freedom that soldiers vis a vis the military provide you. You somehow believe that if we all just gave peace a chance we'd be a better planet. I've dealt with you, and the likes of you, all of my life. I learned to accept your right to protest and villify the military while I was in uniform protecting that very right. I learned to smile and say 'your welcome' while you or your compatriots spit on us, and held somehow fittingly misspelled protest signs declaring your right to free speech. I understand you perfectly well. I understand that it would be dangerous for your kind to ever run nations. Such a nation would be taken over almost immediately by others. I understand human nature all too well. You delude yourself into thinking that it is something somehow better than it is, or capable of being.

The next time you go out on a whim, the next time you change jobs, travel where you please, speak as you please, write a letter of protest, or get on this board to protest how vile America is, remember that you can only do so because you are free. And you are only free because of what the blood of soldiers bought. There is NO other reason for your freedom. Remember that, the next time you spout your anti-militarist rhetoric. The irony should at least make you smile.

Pasa

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

In the case of the Military and the wars, hate the game, not the Players, My Loves. I dont condone what the Govt does, nor do I like what the Military is forced to do. But I wholeheartedly respect the men and women that are fighting for the freedom of others right now. If some of you were there when the Nam Vets came home to a beer bottle full of piss being thrown at them, or cups of blood being thrown in their faces, you'd better understand what all they went through. I was 9 months pregnant and decked a gal for throwing pigs blood in my returning husbands' face, and was proud to do so.
Like I said, Hate the Game....not the players.
Cat

[Pasadenacpl2]

I used to believe that, Cat. Then I read Ender's Game by Orson Scott Carde. My understanding of war, and it's uses, and the constructive use of violence was expanded by reading this book. It is also, btw, just a first rate novel.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

In the case of the Military and the wars, hate the game, not the Players, My Loves. I dont condone what the Govt does, nor do I like what the Military is forced to do. But I wholeheartedly respect the men and women that are fighting for the freedom of others right now. If some of you were there when the Nam Vets came home to a beer bottle full of piss being thrown at them, or cups of blood being thrown in their faces, you'd better understand what all they went through. I was 9 months pregnant and decked a gal for throwing pigs blood in my returning husbands' face, and was proud to do so.
Like I said, Hate the Game....not the players.
Cat

I find it very hard to hate, Cat, as I have often said in these forums.. I do hate the game of war.. yet hate the players? No.. not on either side.. I may hate what they do, but whether they do it in the name of nation or cause that isn't enough for me to hate them. I have always tried to argue in that vein.. sadly in times of war we are encouraged by many to hate those we are told are our enemy, as that "enemy" is encouraged to hate us.. I may have no respect for those who prove themselves unworthy of it, but hate? I can't and won't say I'm incapable of it.. but I do not hate easily..

[tenni]

DD re: your post #51

I think that to let the thread die without understanding what was meant and what was said would be an error. I know that I am on sensitive ground.

Yes, I found your reference to that video and the words that you wrote shocking and sorry but supporting propaganda that will lead you and your country to more unhappiness. I was able to see that the song and images were there to rationalize a soldier's life and unfortunately death. I strongly support those who wish to "support the troops" but for me it is always how? I don't believe accepting what I consider smaltzy romanticism of the military under questionable government directives is the best approach. It must be horrifically difficult for both the soldiers and the family of dead soldiers to rationalize the sacrifices. It would seem to be that it would be an easy route to accept that they died for freedom and protecting the children in the backyard on a national celebration. Is that logical though? It is not from what I know and believe in. Even in my post, I wrote that I know that Canadian soldiers are not dying for my freedom and to protect me.

My country was born out of a very different beginning than your country though. It was a very much longer and less violent birth: Long labour with much less pain and blood. We are manipulated as easily as your people. Presently, I think that is fairly strong as a message from the present regime. I'm a bit surprised where some comments are coming from in our boards of our national newspapers. Those that reflect with intelligent thought as your own may want to be even more vigilant in questioning your historical myths.


If your country was born out of violence has some of your myth and rhetoric led you to perpetuating a violent approach to survival? Has it led you to believe that you need to fight for freedom? Always vigilant to protect yourself? Were your former leaders able to easily manipulate so many by using buzz words like "freedom" and "protection" that the people had already been conditioned to support as a reason for any action?

In the case of the statements that Cat made, I am horrified as I believe that what has happened not just in Iraq or Afghanistan but the reasons for 911, the removal of the Queen of Hawaii, how Puerto Ricco came to be a protectorate of the USA, why the US thinks that it needs so very many military installations so far out of its territory and many more make her words really a problem for some such as me. I do not want your people to suffer another 911. I don't want to experience such a thing either. How can that be done? Why are so many in the world angry with your country and now my country because we went to Afghanistan for you as part of our NATO agreement? I never thought that the agreement would involve anything but supporting a country on their own territory. Today, is a very different world from when the agreement was signed.

Thank you for explaining your rationale for why your country invaded Iraq. I have heard similar explanations. They seem to make sense to some people in your country but not a lot outside of your country. Why is that? They were not the reasons given to the UN (that the UN accepted). They do not stand up as acceptable reasons to invade another sovereign country on your own without UN support. You are the bad guys for doing so whether you accept it or not. Your country is not the saviour but the terrorist state in even many more minds than before you did invade. The US is just too powerful to be told it too often to your face. The US is no better than any previous empire of any other country. It makes similar mistakes some say. Its actions are not about freedom and self protection as much as other thoughts.

As far as Adam's statement is concerned, I am not educated in your belief systems enough that it makes sense to dumb me. My views and right to express those views have not been paid with bloodshed in my country ...yet. Remember that I have written that I know that Canadians dying in Afghanistan have nothing to do with my freedoms. You both on the other hand seem to live in a much more violent society where this may be true. Even if it is a truism outside of my experience, I originally asked people like yourself to challenge your war mongers more before permitting them access to the blood of your military to kill innocents in other countries.

[darkeyes]

No. They don't count for the very specific thing I was saying, Fran. Sorry. Nice try, but not every one counts for every situation. But, as usual, this is a case of you knowing damn well what I meant but choosing to set it up as something other than what I said. I don't take offense. Happens all the time.

I don't know that you are a traitor. Disagreeing does not make one a traitor. I do know, however, that anyone who fled the US to avoid doing their duty as a citizen IS a traitor and should, at the very least, never be allowed home again. And those that fled to Canada don't count for shit when it comes to testing whether or not Tenni would be willing to spew his Anti-American rhetoric to an American.

And, I don't misunderstand you. I understand you perfectly well. You are a hand holding, pacifist, kumbaya singing, hippy who has the temerity to protest the very freedom that soldiers vis a vis the military provide you. You somehow believe that if we all just gave peace a chance we'd be a better planet. I've dealt with you, and the likes of you, all of my life. I learned to accept your right to protest and villify the military while I was in uniform protecting that very right. I learned to smile and say 'your welcome' while you or your compatriots spit on us, and held somehow fittingly misspelled protest signs declaring your right to free speech. I understand you perfectly well. I understand that it would be dangerous for your kind to ever run nations. Such a nation would be taken over almost immediately by others. I understand human nature all too well. You delude yourself into thinking that it is something somehow better than it is, or capable of being.

The next time you go out on a whim, the next time you change jobs, travel where you please, speak as you please, write a letter of protest, or get on this board to protest how vile America is, remember that you can only do so because you are free. And you are only free because of what the blood of soldiers bought. There is NO other reason for your freedom. Remember that, the next time you spout your anti-militarist rhetoric. The irony should at least make you smile.

Pasa

Every word you spout in the above post shows you misunderstand me and simply read into what I say as what you want it to say.. I am what I am because of what I know of the world.. I do not need to be a soldier to know I loathe and hate war.. I have never said humanity can at this moment be at peace with itself.. my ideals are held for future generations.. it is a dream for which I actively work, fight and campaign.. every pacifist knows the reality of our world.. we are neither stupid or naive.. I fight for my freedoms in my own way.. I do not rely on soldiers to get them for me.. most of my freedoms were obtained by people like me struggling against those who believed they were our betters.. I do not rely on soldiers to save them for me.. I struggle every day of my life to defend my freedoms... yes soldiers have helped bring us to where we are today..we have many of our freedoms because of soldiers and what they sacrificed.. yet that is NOT the whole story.. not nearly the whole story... PEOPLE gave me my freedoms and liberties.. most of them not by soldiers, but by ordinary people.. I fight for my liberties and freedoms in my way, without violence and will never sacrifice them willingly as do millions of others.. you do misunderstand me.. and people like me.. you misunderstand pacifism... you misunderstand the true concept of freedom.. you misunderstand most things which make this world a good place in which to live.. and you hate and have nothing but contempt for things you neither understand or wish to even try...

[tenni]

Cat
I wholeheartedly agree with you as to the intent of what your wrote in post #56? I support you in stating thank the Vets for their service to their country as it excludes the Vets from any particular action of a government or having to rationalize it based upon a country's mythology.

My heart goes out to the families who have members who die or wounded as soldiers. It is extremely difficult to rationalize their injuries or death regardless of what the government asked them to do. I've noticed that soldiers (and maybe former soldiers) are much more willing to support government directives. On the other hand, wasn't part of the horror for Nam vets that they saw the futility of their actions in Nam?

I don't think that enough reflection was given to my question on how to support Vets who believe that their time is up to be told that they must go back for two more years. If they are conning, then that is one thing. If they did not read the form carefully enough, there should be a solution to prevent that. If someone serves in any military and can no longer handle the horror so that they kill themself or leave their country to become a refugee, that doesn't seem like supporting the troops in my view.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Every word you spout in the above post shows you misunderstand me and simply read into what I say as what you want it to say.. I am what I am because of what I know of the world.. I do not need to be a soldier to know I loathe and hate war.. I have never said humanity can at this moment be at peace with itself.. my ideals are held for future generations.. it is a dream for which I actively work, fight and campaign.. every pacifist knows the reality of our world.. we are neither stupid or naive.. I fight for my freedoms in my own way.. I do not rely on soldiers to get them for me.. most of my freedoms were obtained by people like me struggling against those who believed they were our betters.. I do not rely on soldiers to save them for me.. I struggle every day of my life to defend my freedoms... yes soldiers have helped bring us to where we are today..we have many of our freedoms because of soldiers and what they sacrificed.. yet that is NOT the whole story.. not nearly the whole story... PEOPLE gave me my freedoms and liberties.. most of them not by soldiers, but by ordinary people.. I fight for my liberties and freedoms in my way, without violence and will never sacrifice them willingly as do millions of others.. you do misunderstand me.. and people like me.. you misunderstand pacifism... you misunderstand the true concept of freedom.. you misunderstand most things which make this world a good place in which to live.. and you hate and have nothing but contempt for things you neither understand or wish to even try...

I call bullshit on just about every bit of this.

Your freedoms may have been written by people. But, without soldiers, without the military, you wouldn't have them at all. Because it is the military which protects them. You can't accept that. Fine. But you don't fight for shit. You argue. You write cute little slogans on signs. YOU don't actually do a damn thing to secure, protect, or even expand any freedoms. No rally ever protected anything. No law was ever written because of a sit-in. Being opinionated doesn't mean that you actually do anything. Just makes you opinionated and loud.

No, I do not hate. I love the fact that you and others are free to find your contempt for the military. I love that you are free to do so BECAUSE of the military. I love that you only have your freedom BECAUSE of the very men you protest. Because if you had your way, and the military suddenly disappeared, your freedom would as well.

I absolutely LOVE that you, your ideals, and your pacifism can only exist as long as the military is there to ensure that others don't try to take it away from you. I LOVE that you are dependent upon them, even if you don't see it. None so blind, eh? The irony is striking.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

I don't think that enough reflection was given to my question on how to support Vets who believe that their time is up to be told that they must go back for two more years. If they are conning, then that is one thing. If they did not read the form carefully enough, there should be a solution to prevent that. If someone serves in any military and can no longer handle the horror so that they kill themself or leave their country to become a refugee, that doesn't seem like supporting the troops in my view.

They are not a refugee. They are a traitor.

They knew what they were in for when they signed up. If they didn't, they weren't paying attention. I'll be happy to have you speak to my brother, a recruiter for the Army about the rules and regs of recruiting. They are VERY STRICT. Any soldier who claims they didn't know is lying or stupid.

Once again, you don't know a damn thing about what you're talking about. I know I should get used to it, by now, but it still surprises me occasionally.

Pasa

[Canticle]

I rejoice in the fact, that the United States of America became a free land and built a democracy and grew as a country, when other states joined the Union. Such an event, is one to be celebrated and in the best of ways, with laughter and happiness.

Any conflict ended, over 200 years ago and those, who fought bravely, for this new nation, should be remembered with thanks and love. Raising a glass and toasting them, does no harm. It is saying ‘thank you.’

What becomes of any country, many years down the line, should not, I believe, be viewed in the same light. Times change. Technology moves on. War becomes no more vicious, or lethal, but it does become far more easy, to inflict great damage upon the enemy. For example, the fields in Battle, Sussex, where the Battle of Hastings took place, in 1066, is littered with mutilated skeletons. War was, brutal and bloody. War still is, brutal and bloody.

When I was a very small child, I’d go out shopping, with my mother and I would see old men, using crutches to get about. They all had one leg and the the other trouser leg would be pinned up. I would ask my mother, why these men were like this and she would say, that they were soldiers from WWI. To me, there seemed to be lots of these men. In truth, I was probably seeing the same men over and over again. However, as young as I was, it hit home.....what war does.

Unlike Fran, I am not a pacifist, although I do believe that every avenue should be explored, before the need to go to war, is deemed inevitable. When all avenues, turn into cul de sacs and there is no other option, military intervention is usually required.

Going to war is not what every soldier hopes to do, his/her goal not being seen just as a killing machine. Many join the forces (and in the UK we don’t called ex-members, of Her Majesty’s Forces, Veterans, just ex whichever service they belonged to and once no longer in theservices, civilians), to have a career, train for certain skills, live out a lifelong dream, follow in the footsteps of their forebears. War is something, which they know, may happen and if it does, they will serve as professionals...doing their job. I have not heard one member of any of the three forces, ever claim to be brave......yet many are.

Fran and tenni respect such people.....so do I and it is not impossible for a civilian to understand what the forces go through.....unless...of course....they never speak of such a thing. Without communication, it is impossible for us to know what something is like, how a person thinks, or feels. Non-combatants, may never step foot upon the field of war, but we can come to some understanding of what it is like.

The word traitor, should not be bandied about so liberally. Someone who becomes a conscientious objector, because they are a pacifist and refuses to serve in the military is not a coward, or a traitor to his/her country. To make such a decision, takes a lot of guts, because of the flack these people take. Quakers are pacifists and refuse to fight, because of their beliefs. Does this make them cowards? Not in my eyes.

During WWI very young men, scared and suffering shell shock and just absolute terror, were shot for desertion. It was known, at the time, that these young men, were not cowards, just terribly damaged and yet they were taken out and shot, usually with an officer needing to ‘’finish them off.’’ Casualties of war, only very recently, officially acknowledged, as such.

Countries go to war for many reasons. Sometimes it is for a very good reason, as in WWII (and I don’t think pacifism would have stopped Hitler, even though no WWI, may have led to the non-existence of the Nazis), other times countries go to war, on the most flimsy of excuses. Defeating an enemy, such as Hitler and the Nazis and the imperialism of Japan, was a necessary evil, but necessary. Intervening in other countries, where it is obvious, to the rest of the world, that there can be no victory, ends up, a pointless exercise and with the deaths of many fine young men and eomen and all of the civilian casualties.

Afghanistan is a no win scenario. The nation has never been conquered by western forces. I understand why action was taken, but it seems to me, that this is a situation, which will go on and on, with no real headway being made.....and every week, brings news of the death of yet another...or several....soldier/s.

I think that many people now believe that the war in Iraq, was wrong, for many different reasons. Forgetting the weapons of mass destruction...or lack of them and the invasion, legal or not, of a sovereign nation. It has to be realised...and this is my opinion.....that the people of Iraq were not freed from tyranny and given democracy. The invasion of and war in Iraq, has actually led to the country becoming totally destabilised and allowed for insurgents an excuse, to do what they are doing. The despotism and dictatorship of Saddam Hussein, may have been evil, but the country had not fallen apart and was....in many ways...stable.

However, once started, there is no going back and Iraq now has to be rebuilt and eventually all troops removed. Are the the western powers and the UN, willing to accept, that the country may well return to dictatorship and not evolve into a democratic state?

A country’s true freedom can only come from the people of that particular country, fighting for their own freedom and ridding itself of tyranny....as in Romania, Czechoslovakia, East Germany (the Berlin wall), partisans fighting in what was Yugoslavia, during WWII and the French Resistance, and those freedom fighters in many other lands...................................including 13 colonies, over 200 years ago, fighting for the freedom of the people.

Sadly, human beings have to have something to fear. It gives many an excuse for what they will do. It gives countries, going to war, an excuse.....sometimes rational......sometimes not. During the Cold War, it was Communism...but did Communism take over the world....NO...not in many. Many countries. Before that it was Facism. One breed of Facism, got fought and defeated, another kind prevailed for decades......Spain and Portugal, but ultimately, it failed and those two countries have democracies.

Now the big fear is Islam. OK, I’m not a fan, but the world is not going to get taken over by Islam. I firmly believe that. So do many, many more people. The majority of Muslims, just want to live in peace with their neighbours, working hard to keep a roof over their head and educating their children.

Maybe one’s attitude toward Muslims, as individuals, is coloured by how many one has known. They are working class, middle class etc, suffering the same illnesses, paying the same bills etc, as other citizens.

When the IRA bombed indiscriminantly, they killed Protestant and Roman Catholic, men, women and children, the old and the young. People who just wanted peace. They were not heroes. They were terrorists, in the same way that Al Qaeda are terrorists and kill other Muslims and are not heroic.

You ask your average Muslim cab driver, in my country and he’ll tell you exactly what he thinks of those people......not much at all.

It doesn’t matter what the cause is....animal rights, or the freedom of a people, terrorism is wrong. Executing war damaged young soldiers, crippling runaway slaves, torturing, massacrering, raping, murdering GBLT people, killing people of another religion, showing political intolerance, hunting aboriginal peoples, because the colonising power, deems them less than animals, throwing acid in a young girl’s face. ALL are wrong.

July 4th, along with any other independence day, should be a time of celebration and a time to reflect upon the past, the present, but especially the future. A time for celebration and thanks. Yes, remembering all those who have fallen, who never got to spend another celebratory day with their family, but not one to talk about military might, or to criticise it. A time for happiness and laughter and memories, not gloating or pointing the finger.

A country is the land, the fields and the hills, the highways and byways, the scenery, the beauty of the landscape. The people come next and inhabit the country, colonise it, give it a name and make it either grow and prosper, or see it’s demise. Good and bad happen, war and peace. People are born, they live and then die. The land prevails, no matter how it is abused by humankind. It prevails and offers up it’s gifts, to those who have settled there.

Happy Birthday USA, be it a few days late. Cat’s intentions were honourable. She opened her own thread, for her country’s birthday and did not expect the debate which has blossomed.......but humans......being human......always surprise. Or do they?

[Pasadenacpl2]

We have an all volunteer military. They are told what their committment is before they sign the papers. Once you are in, turning your back, fleeing the country, to avoidyour duty makes you a traitor. It's almost the definition of being a traitor.

No, I don't care that they didn't want to do it any more. When you join the military, you give up your desires in favor of the needs of the nation and the military. And those who have never been in far too often don't understand the necessity of that. So be it. Doesn't change it, however.

Just know that someone else took their place. Someone that wouldn't have had to if they had done their job. They didn't save themselves, they sacrificed someone else.

Even if you dislike the word traitor, you cannot escape the word deserter. Desertion has but one penalty. And they deserve that penalty if they are ever caught. It is my hope that they stay safely in Canada and never get caught, becoming Canada's problem rather than ours.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

I call bullshit on just about every bit of this.

Your freedoms may have been written by people. But, without soldiers, without the military, you wouldn't have them at all. Because it is the military which protects them. You can't accept that. Fine. But you don't fight for shit. You argue. You write cute little slogans on signs. YOU don't actually do a damn thing to secure, protect, or even expand any freedoms. No rally ever protected anything. No law was ever written because of a sit-in. Being opinionated doesn't mean that you actually do anything. Just makes you opinionated and loud.

No, I do not hate. I love the fact that you and others are free to find your contempt for the military. I love that you are free to do so BECAUSE of the military. I love that you only have your freedom BECAUSE of the very men you protest. Because if you had your way, and the military suddenly disappeared, your freedom would as well.

I absolutely LOVE that you, your ideals, and your pacifism can only exist as long as the military is there to ensure that others don't try to take it away from you. I LOVE that you are dependent upon them, even if you don't see it. None so blind, eh? The irony is striking.

Pasa

The military at various times in our history..much, although not all of which is your history, has often done anything but defend our freedoms.. it has threatened..and has been used by the established order to attempt to crush dissent.. dissent by the very people I believe who are most responsible for achieving what we have.. the military exists not entirely for defence of the nation, even less so for our way of life.. but for the defence of that established order and its successors which throughout human history has endeavoured to crush the progress ordinary people have striven to make..the same can be said of most nations.. even your own.. yes it has defended our freedoms.. but not because it defended the interests of ordinary people although that is partially true inasmuch as it has been allowed to or was required to.. it has defended our freedoms because that was in the interests of the ruling elite which it served, and which sent it to war in the first place.. yet as often as not in human history..that same military machine has turned on its people when required, supressed its freedoms and crushed it.. the military machine exists as much for the retention of the internal established order as it is for defence of the state from an external threat.. in some nations more than others.. but in all nations nonetheless..

..and if the day comes, as it may, when my pacifism, and my dissent, or my socialism or even my sexuality or anyone else's for that matter is no longer to be tolerated by the governing elite of my society, if required, then it will once again be used to put it down mercilously... and if you believe that an army in a democracy of free people will not turn on its own people, there are more examples of it doing just that than there are of armies defending its people against its rulers..

[tenni]

Pasa
Are you trying to be offensive when someone challenges or make a statement that you do not like? Trying to be more civil may increase tolerance and understanding. I disagree with some of your thoughts and almost have concern for you at others. Neither here nor there as far as the point of discussion. Cat did not just raise a happy birthday but unknown to her raised several issues about Vets and your country's international behaviour.

Enough of that.

I tried to raise a point about how we civilians may support our troops and vets which is exactly what Cat was promoting (all be if rather shockingly for me). The example that I gave you is just one of several. When these people come to my country and apply, they apply as a refugee. Get it? They have not applied as a traitor. That is your call without knowing their conditions. I suspect that the man and others will have their refugee claim denied based upon a previous well publicized case that will make you angry if I tell you. We will not send them back to your country with their passport stamped traitor..nor did they come here with such a stamp.

You mention that they are deserters. If they have been released officially from your military and are called back, are you telingl me that they are still deserters?

You mention your brother and that there are procedures to insure that a person applying to join your military understand the circumstances and length of term. Thank you for that info. Just4 also stated that without the anger or slurs. Still, there are Vets and have been for sometime that have found themselves called up again. I read several years ago about some who had been out of the military for several (maybe more than two years even?) who found themselves being called up...both men and women. I suspect that you are also aware of that. Some are leaving your country. I wouldn't be surprised if some are killing themselves depending upon their mental health.

The question remains what can be done to help these Vets? You seem to believe that nothing may be done or even should be done. Why do I not feel that will resolve this on going problem for Vets?


They are not a refugee. They are a traitor.

They knew what they were in for when they signed up. If they didn't, they weren't paying attention. I'll be happy to have you speak to my brother, a recruiter for the Army about the rules and regs of recruiting. They are VERY STRICT. Any soldier who claims they didn't know is lying or stupid.

Once again, you don't know a damn thing about what you're talking about. I know I should get used to it, by now, but it still surprises me occasionally.

Pasa

[Kiowa_Pacer]

Greetings all;

I wasn't going to respond to this, but I feel I have to now. Bear in mind I'm not a wordsmith like Mama, or my wife, and I hope I can explain things properly.

When I came back from the Sands the first time, I expected to be treated as my Dad had been when he and my uncles got back from Nam. I didnt, but what I did get was some fantastic help from people who did advocation for us Vets. I was treated good, and found the help I needed for Gulf War Syndrome. Since I lived in LA at the time, I went to the Ferderal Building like I was suppose to. I met this Lady there that at first I thought was a complete hard-ass because she was chewing this guy a new one. Turns out he was a Wannabe and poser and got his ass caught. He was trying to reap benifits from a war he was never actually In. This Lady took this personally and as I listened, I grew to like her a great deal.

She wasn't one of these Veterans Officers that talked down to us, she was truly an advocate. When she was done rimming this guy and he was escorted out of the Fed Building, we saw she was shaking because she was so mad. And I wouldn't have wanted to make this Lady angry. We'd find out later she had a heart as tender and sweet as cotton candy, but don't piss her off.

Dude sitting there got up and went to her and put his arm, yes, just one, around her and held for the minute that she would allow him to. He came back and sat down with a grin and said "Well Bro, if your here to see Mama, you aint gunna find no better person to look after you and your lady there" The lady with me was my sister.
He was right.

That was 10 years ago. Our Mama-aka Cat here, helped me to get what I needed as far as treatment and she showed me that there were tons of people who Do care. She even introduced me to a cute little Pixie of a nurse at the VA hospital; and I married her a year and a half later.

Not everyone is going to agree with the war or the Government, and I am still sorry for what happened to my Brothers and Sisters in the past when they came home. Many are still fighting That war and all others. I thank God for people like Mama and you that supposrt us Vets, and who do understand what we went through and are Still going through. Some wounds arent visible.

Bottom line is this: There are a great many people who Do care for Veterans of all countries, and Will do their best to help them and their families in any way they can. I know many of you that arent from this country dont understand, and no insult is intended, but that's the way it is Here.
Anyway, I've unintentionally written a book, so forgive me for its length and for letting me add my personal two coins.
Thanks,

Ki

[Pasadenacpl2]

Pasa
You do try to be as offensive when someone challenges or make a statement that you do not like. Trying to be more civil may increase tolerance and understanding. I disagree with some of your thought. I question if something is off balance with you at times. I try not to tell you to stf, etc.

Enough of that.

I tried to raise a point about how we civilians may support our troops and vets. The example that I gave you is just one of several. When these people come to my country and apply, they apply as a refugee. Get it? They have not applied as a traitor. That is your call without knowing their conditions. I suspect that the man and others will have their refugee claim denied based upon a previous well publicized case that will make you angry if I tell you.

You mention your brother and that there are procedures to insure that a person applying to join your military understand the circumstances and length of term. Thank you for that info. Just4 also stated that without the anger or slurs. Still, there are Vets and have been for sometime that have found themselves called up again. I read several years ago about some who had been out of the military for several (maybe more than two years even?) who found themselves being called up...both men and women. I suspect that you are also aware of that.

The question remains what can be done to help these Vets? You seem to believe that nothing may be done or even should be done. Why do I not feel that will resolve this on going problem for Vets?

First, how dare you, who slams my nation on it's birthday lecture me about civility? It's too rich.

Not a damn thing should be done other than them doing their duty. Period. It's not a problem. It's the commitment THEY FUCKING SIGNED UP TO PERFORM. Duty, honor, commitment. Your new Candadian traitors have none of these things.

They fled their duty. They are deserters. They should receive the death penalty. That is the penalty for their crime.

Pasa

[tenni]

"First, how dare you, who slams my nation on it's birthday lecture me about civility? "

Yes, I certainly will speak out. I commended your country on its birthday on two birthday threads but I will speak out against those who support war mongering.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Nice of you to ignore the rest.

Typical

Pasa

[darkeyes]

They fled their duty. They are deserters. They should receive the death penalty. That is the penalty for their crime.

Pasa

Is it? You know your military law better than I.. but is it not the penalty of death allowed only in times of declared war, or can it also be used in times of an undeclared conflict? In any case to some degree it is moot since I don't think the powers that be agree with you since I understand only one soldier has been executed for desertion since the American civil war.. I may not like them much, but I'm glad to see even the US military top brass don't adhere to Pasa law that often... it is Pasa, the maximum penalty for the desertion in time of war.. not THE penalty.. get it right...

[Pasadenacpl2]

You would be incorrect. Many were killed during world wars I and II. Those were called 'field executions' and were never given a courts martial, as they were handled expediently.

Further, during wartime (a declaration of war is not necessary to fulfill this), there is only one penalty for desertion, whereas during peacetime there are other options. You can find this under Article 85 of the UCMJ.

President Ford pardoned those who fled to Canada in the 70s because he didn't want the nation to have to execute those who fled, as it was the only punishment available.

Those who Tenni knows who recently went to Canada to avoid their duty, are deserters and traitors in a time of war. There is only one punishment.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

You would be incorrect. Many were killed during world wars I and II. Those were called 'field executions' and were never given a courts martial, as they were handled expediently.

Further, during wartime (a declaration of war is not necessary to fulfill this), there is only one penalty for desertion, whereas during peacetime there are other options. You can find this under Article 85 of the UCMJ.

President Ford pardoned those who fled to Canada in the 70s because he didn't want the nation to have to execute those who fled, as it was the only punishment available.

Those who Tenni knows who recently went to Canada to avoid their duty, are deserters and traitors in a time of war. There is only one punishment.

Pasa

I would be incorrect huh? do u mean this part of Article 85?

(c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.”

Maybe thats what u meant, hey???

And in WW2 49 solddiers received the death penalty for desertion but all received lesser sentences on appeal..only one was actually executed.. over 21000 were in fact convicted of desertion in WW2.. I havent researched your claim for WWI but it seems you are not quite right.. I think I shall stick to my claim.. Pvt Slovik was his name.. the only GI to be executed for desertion since the civil war...

Btw 70 US military personnel were executed in WW2.. for rape and murder...

[Pasadenacpl2]

You might have missed the part about field executions. Those didn't go to courts martial for conviction. Many of these were 'friendly' fire, or not reported so as not to punish their families. Of course, you won't find official documentation of this. Things happen in the field. They stay there.

But, whatever. The point remains. They are deserters. Others had to do their duty to fill in. They deserve the listed penalty: death. They deserve no respect. They deserve no honors. They deserve, at the very least, the exile from their homeland they have chosen. Never to return, for any reason.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

You might have missed the part about field executions. Those didn't go to courts martial for conviction. Many of these were 'friendly' fire, or not reported so as not to punish their families. Of course, you won't find official documentation of this. Things happen in the field. They stay there.

But, whatever. The point remains. They are deserters. Others had to do their duty to fill in. They deserve the listed penalty: death. They deserve no respect. They deserve no honors. They deserve, at the very least, the exile from their homeland they have chosen. Never to return, for any reason.

Pasa

I assume u mean desertion in the face of the enemy? And they didnt go to court martial?? Wow Pasa.. what an admission.. a man cant defend himself? The British executed lots for that, and probably some were killed just as u say.. shell shocked, brain damaged poor buggers who should never have been in the front line in the first place.. but most were at least provided with a court martial.. kangaroo court sure.. summary "justice".. definately... quite a few hundred in WW1.. and equally nasty and unfair.. methinks u r grasping at straws here Pasa cos u stumbled in with both feet and made a mess of it...

The listed penalty is death or some such penalty as the court deems fit.. get it right, Pasa... it seems that your military prefers the some such... and quite right too..

[Pasadenacpl2]

You get it right. You've been wrong pretty much this entire time. Or some such doesn't mean shit.

They deserve death. Better keep em in Canada where the rest of the cowards are at.

Pasa - tired of people defending traitors.

[tenni]

Pasa
I didn't ignore the rest of your post re deserter/traitor. I've been reading your viewpoint. I'm just absorbing what you wrote. For you it is an ethical thing to happen. "Friendly fire" has a new meaning.


"They deserve death. Better keep em in Canada where the rest of the cowards are at."...interesting perspective.

[Pasadenacpl2]

"Friendly" fire...isn't. We learn that on day 1 of basic.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

"Friendly" fire...isn't. We learn that on day 1 of basic.

Pasa

..and I'm happy to write to Auntie Beeb to tell them that, Pasa.. or maybe Channel 4.. they are much better at this sort of thing.. CNN may not be too bad either.. and believe me, France24 will have a field day.. I'm sure a little publicity of justice in the US military and what recruits are told on day 1 of basic training will will go down a bundle with the families of those American soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines who have been told their loved ones died because of "friendly fire", sorry... "friendly" fire... over how long is it now? Lets just go back to WW2...

[Pasadenacpl2]

You act like this is news. It isn't. The military doesn't work like any other organization. It can't. Most civilians understand that.

Then there are the kumbaya singers. They always act shocked. *shrug* Oh..OH, I C what you did thar. Again, using what I said in a different manner than how I said it. I know I've pretty much won an argument when you have to change my meaning to create your counterpoint. kthxbai.

Pasa

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Cat
I wholeheartedly agree with you as to the intent of what your wrote in post #56? I support you in stating thank the Vets for their service to their country as it excludes the Vets from any particular action of a government or having to rationalize it based upon a country's mythology.

Oh Lordy..Hell's sure going thru an Ice Age lately, Tenni's agreed with Me on something.
Thanks ;)
Cat

[AdamKadmon43]

.. but most of our freedoms were not won by war at all.. but by ordinary men and women living, working, demonstrating, striking and arguing and fighting as non violently as they were able for the things they believed in.

That is not historically accurate.

[tenni]

uh..Adam
Might it depend upon what country darkeyes is referring to? Whose history are you referring to?

[tenni]

Cat
I wholeheartedly agree with you as to the intent of what your wrote in post #56? I support you in stating thank the Vets for their service to their country as it excludes the Vets from any particular action of a government or having to rationalize it based upon a country's mythology.

Oh Lordy..Hell's sure going thru an Ice Age lately, Tenni's agreed with Me on something.
Thanks ;)
Cat

Oh Cat....Dumpling
I'm only giving back the love when you agreed with me on another post.;)
I think neither of us agree just to agree though.

pst..I kinda like that word "dumpling"....:bigrin:

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Well, we cant disagree All the time. That's childish and un-productive. Its ok to disagree, that's what makes us human. As long as folks can disagree without becoming insultive and malicious, then its gunna happen and its alright. And if you and I agreed All the time, the Earth would tremble..LOL
Cat

[Long Duck Dong]

I practice what I preach every day of my life duckie.. it would be a gross hypocrisy to do otherwise... I dont have the time to reply to all of your post but may come back to it.. but let me pick up on one thing.. because..

..I didnt think I needed to.. I mentioned soldiers of all nations.. my own included... there are many incidents in our history where we can feel ashamed to be Scots.. William Wallace barricading a large group of English soldiers in a barn and burning them to death.. Scottish soldiers (not British) slaughtering men women and children at Glencoe to make a point. Scottish soldiers in the British army after culloden butchering men women and children and burning them out of house and home and depriving them of food.. Scottish soldiers raiding England at varuous times in our history and raping and pillaging, slaughtering anyone that moved whatever their age and gender.. yes and the butchering of men women and children which went on in the highlands and islands during the clan wars .. and indeed in the border country of my own Elliot ancestors.

These events every Scot should feel ashamed about, yet most dont..more they feel aggrieved or strangely proud of the slaughters which were inflicted on human beings.. soldier and civilian alike..... I have no romantic view of my country's history.. Scotland or the United Kingdom..I know far too much about it.. and in part because I do know far too much about it I know just what destruction and death has been caused by soldier and clansman alike.. and why I believe in the things I do.. no Duckie.. I do not excuse my own countrymen and women past and present their shame where it is deserved... they I condemn more strongly than any other because I am of them ..

so the scottish fighting for freedom and survival against a enemy intent on wiping out the scottish clans, was wrong.... they should have not fought back at all, but sat down and had a tea party instead.....

tell me, how can you fight for what you believe in, and justify that as your right..... yet condemn others for fighting for their survival and existence, as wrong for their actions....

william wallace burnt down a church with people.... the same people that were waiting for him to turn up so they could have a tea party and friendly chat over scones and jam......... woah wait........ thats the same people that executed 360 scottish lords ( the Barns of Ayr )
ok william wallace was a norty boy for not having tea and scones with mass murderers.....

a lil more reading fran, .... you condemned a man for dealing with mass murderers, by equal means...... cos you missed one important part..... the murder of 360 people but wait.... the scottish had gone to a meeting with the english..... instead they went to their deaths


Alarmed about the mounting crisis sweeping Scotland the English authorities in Ayrshire were determined to nip it in the bud. In the name of King Edward I, the English Judge, Arnulf of Southampton, summoned all the leading Scots to attend an eyre-court in Ayr, on the 18 June 1297. The eyre-court was held in a large lofty building, known locally as the Barns, situated on the outskirts of Ayr. The only entrance into the Barns was guarded by English soldiers who herded the Scots into the building in a single file. As the Scots entered the building they were immediately restrained; gagged and a noose placed around their necks before they were finally strung up from the rafters. In total three hundred and sixty Scotsmen were lured to their deaths, in an incident called 'the Barns of Ayr'.

But on the 18 June 1297, William Wallace travelled to Kingace rather than to attend the eyre-court and listen to the rantings from one of King Edward I's representative. Returning back to Ayr in the afternoon, he was informed that the eyre-court had been an elaborate trap, but what incensed him the most was the underhanded nature by which the English authorities had massacred his fellow countrymen. William Wallace wanted to return the favour and therefore sent word to his rebel army to rendezvous with him at Leglen Wood.

A couple of days later, during the middle of the night, William Wallace and his rebels stealthy entered the town. As they encroached on the town dwelling they secured all the doors that had been marked, trapping its English occupants. Fifty men, including Robert Boyd made for Ayr Castle and kept it under surveillance, whilst the rest followed William Wallace to the Barns. Their information proved to be accurate, as they found the English judge together with a large contingent of English soldiers sleeping off the effects of a heavy night of drinking. They immediately barricaded the door and strategically placed brushwood around the building; then it was doused with oil; finally the signal was given to torch the place and instantly the building was set ablaze. By now alarm bells were ringing at the castle, as the burning building lit up the night sky. The English soldiers hastily stumbled out of the castle to aid their colleagues, but were ambushed; then slaughtered by Robert Boyd and his party.

[darkeyes]

so the scottish fighting for freedom and survival against a enemy intent on wiping out the scottish clans, was wrong.... they should have not fought back at all, but sat down and had a tea party instead.....

tell me, how can you fight for what you believe in, and justify that as your right..... yet condemn others for fighting for their survival and existence, as wrong for their actions....

william wallace burnt down a church with people.... the same people that were waiting for him to turn up so they could have a tea party and friendly chat over scones and jam......... woah wait........ thats the same people that executed 360 scottish lords ( the Barns of Ayr )
ok william wallace was a norty boy for not having tea and scones with mass murderers.....

a lil more reading fran, .... you condemned a man for dealing with mass murderers, by equal means...... cos you missed one important part..... the murder of 360 people

You keep on doing it Duckie.. we are talking of different times.. more primitive and barbaric times, when human social development was so much less advanced.. I have not criticesd these ancient people for FIGHTING.. I have criticised the barbaric slaughter of the innocent and the helpless.. I am talking of the unnecessary slaughter of those in no position to fight back.. they were men of their times I agree, and they fought in the accepted way of the time.. but even the accepted ways of the times did not involve slaughtering the unarmed, the sleeping civilians who just happened to be in the way.. athough it did happen..and often. I am not alking of the armies of two nations squaring up to each other and fighting a long drawn out war.. I am talking about the systematic slaughter of those who got in the way or were just there at the time, or who were to be used as a government lesson as in the case of Glencoe... or a slaughter of a family or settlement, clan if you like, due to vendetta or trying to save their livestock from Highland raider or border reiver. I am talking of the deliberate use of terror.. yes both sides used it in the anglo/scottish wars and it other conflicts on the islands and further afield.. that does not, even by the accepted standards of the time make what these ancients did right.. nor are their murderous and barbaric acts something of which we should be proud..

Onne thing you should understand, and I have said it before in other threads.. I love my nation, Scotland, and would live nowhere else.. I love the state.. the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.. I love the other constituent parts...England and Wales, and the little I have seen of Northern Ireland.. but I am not proud or ashamed of any of them.. I am of them by accident of birth. Just as by accident of birth I am a white European woman born of that continent, but before I am any of these things, I am a creation of nature and mother earth.. I am a human being.. yet another accident of birth.. or more accurately, conception.. I am not proud of any of these things.. I love being them.. but I just am...

[darkeyes]

That is not historically accurate.

That is historically accurate... the social advances and freedoms of western civilsation which we enjoy today were in the main won without war.. many were won by war, yet even winning those wars jaundiced and prejudiced the advances won.. such as the freeing of slaves after the American civil war.. their real freedom was not won by war, but by their decendants relatively peaacefully a century later.. after the civil war in these islands in the 17th century the power of the monarchy was restricted and other freedoms won for the people.. yet it took almost 3 ceturies of peaceful struggle to win the liberties and freedoms the people of this country enjoy today.. ordinary people won those freedoms, without war...but not without sacrifice..

[Long Duck Dong]

You keep on doing it Duckie.. we are talking of different times.. more primitive and barbaric times, when human social development was so much less advanced.. I have not criticesd these ancient people for FIGHTING.. I have criticised the barbaric slaughter of the innocent and the helpless.. I am talking of the unnecessary slaughter of those in no position to fight back.. they were men of their times I agree, and they fought in the accepted way of the time.. but even the accepted ways of the times did not involve slaughtering the unarmed, the sleeping civilians who just happened to be in the way.. athough it did happen..and often. I am not alking of the armies of two nations squaring up to each other and fighting a long drawn out war.. I am talking about the systematic slaughter of those who got in the way or were just there at the time, or who were to be used as a government lesson as in the case of Glencoe... or a slaughter of a family or settlement, clan if you like, due to vendetta or trying to save their livestock from Highland raider or border reiver. I am talking of the deliberate use of terror.. yes both sides used it in the anglo/scottish wars and it other conflicts on the islands and further afield.. that does not, even by the accepted standards of the time make what these ancients did right.. nor are their murderous and barbaric acts something of which we should be proud..

Onne thing you should understand, and I have said it before in other threads.. I love my nation, Scotland, and would live nowhere else.. I love the state.. the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.. I love the other constituent parts...England and Wales, and the little I have seen of Northern Ireland.. but I am not proud or ashamed of any of them.. I am of them by accident of birth. Just as by accident of birth I am a white European woman born of that continent, but before I am any of these things, I am a creation of nature and mother earth.. I am a human being.. yet another accident of birth.. or more accurately, conception.. I am not proud of any of these things.. I love being them.. but I just am...

I am merely using what you first posted, fran..... if anything I am following your lead

however, I am applying my opinion equally, to all situations, not adjusting it to different aspects of things.......or to fit a square opinion into a round statement

history supports my point of view that war is a lesser of two evils as there is many cases where talking has failed to do anything and harsher action takes place......

I did my time in the services, I can walk both sides of the fence, and so I have a balanced opinion...... I can see things from 2 sides and more...... I have the experience to back the opinion, and that is why my opinion tends to be neutral with a equal view at and form each side......

and that makes me a lesser mortal with a balanced point of view... vs fran the pacifist... and greater mortal ? who talks about all being equal

[darkeyes]

You act like this is news. It isn't. The military doesn't work like any other organization. It can't. Most civilians understand that.

Then there are the kumbaya singers. They always act shocked. *shrug* Oh..OH, I C what you did thar. Again, using what I said in a different manner than how I said it. I know I've pretty much won an argument when you have to change my meaning to create your counterpoint. kthxbai.

Pasa

Jeez.. I think your idea of winnning an argument and mine is two different things.. chapter and verse prove you wrong and you still cant see it.. out of the air comes airey fairey arguments which make you look the dope you are...

[DuckiesDarling]

That is historically accurate... the social advances and freedoms of western civilsation which we enjoy today were in the main won without war.. many were won by war, yet even winning those wars jaundiced and prejudiced the advances won.. such as the freeing of slaves after the American civil war.. their real freedom was not won by war, but by their decendants relatively peaacefully a century later.. after the civil war in these islands in the 17th century the power of the monarchy was restricted and other freedoms won for the people.. yet it took almost 3 ceturies of peaceful struggle to win the liberties and freedoms the people of this country enjoy today.. ordinary people won those freedoms, without war...but not without sacrifice..

Fran, perhaps you should rethink your position on this or find another cause to try and prove your point. The slaves were freed by the Emancipation Proclamation and the Civil War was fought to enforce it. If the slaves had not been "freed" then they damned sure would not have been able to engage in any "peaceful" protests that led to them being able to vote and not forced to use the "Colored" restrooms, the "Colored" diners, the "Colored" movies, the "Colored" anything vs being free to use the same facilities that the whites used.

If they had not been freed by a war they would have been summarily slaughtered by their owners at the first sign of rebellion. Something that had already happened on more than one occasion through the South before the war began in earnest. The penalty for being a runaway slave was harsh and still many tried to find a way to freedom. Where could they go? North? Even after the war not many Northerners cared what happened to them. They remind me of the pacifists of today oh yes let's set someone free. But who gives a damn if they ever get a job or can support themselves, it's not their problem we just wanted them free. So those brave black men and women went West and learned to live in the harsh climate and be judged for who they were not the color of their skin.

[darkeyes]

Fran, perhaps you should rethink your position on this or find another cause to try and prove your point. The slaves were freed by the Emancipation Proclamation and the Civil War was fought to enforce it. If the slaves had not been "freed" then they damned sure would not have been able to engage in any "peaceful" protests that led to them being able to vote and not forced to use the "Colored" restrooms, the "Colored" diners, the "Colored" movies, the "Colored" anything vs being free to use the same facilities that the whites used.

If they had not been freed by a war they would have been summarily slaughtered by their owners at the first sign of rebellion. Something that had already happened on more than one occasion through the South before the war began in earnest. The penalty for being a runaway slave was harsh and still many tried to find a way to freedom. Where could they go? North? Even after the war not many Northerners cared what happened to them. They remind me of the pacifists of today oh yes let's set someone free. But who gives a damn if they ever get a job or can support themselves, it's not their problem we just wanted them free. So those brave black men and women went West and learned to live in the harsh climate and be judged for who they were not the color of their skin.

I meant to say freed during the civil war.. although for many it was after the peace de facto.. but it doesnt alter the reality.. most of the rights gained by ex slaves and their descendants were won peacefully after the civil war and over the following century.. I know this is more true of those in the south rather than the north and elsewhere, but even there they were not considered equal to whites and there was much prejudice.. there remains much today and the struggle for true racial harmony continues..

In Britain and its empire there was another struggle much earlier for the freeing of slaves. and this did not invove a war to end it, although there were isolated conflicts in slave owning parts of the empire between the owners and the slaves.. and yes the British to their shame usually provided the military to end them in favour of the slave owners.. but even when slavery was ended, many of the same problems existed as did in the US... it was ok to free them, but then what? And dont blame pacifists for arguing what is right and when it is effected it going belly up.. we do not argue do something and then replace it with nothing.. I certainly don't anyway, and few others I know would either...of course upon abolition of slavery in both Britain and its Empire (which occured at different times) and in the United States and other slave owning nations, more should have been done to provide ways and means for the emancipated ex-slaves way to make a living.. the fault such as existed in all these nations which freed slaves lies with the governments of the day for not meeting theiir obligations to those people, and yes to the majority of people who had not been slaves and felt that freeing the slaves was it... no more need be done.. the century and a half after freeing slaves in Britain and its empire, and the century after the freeing of slaves in the United State puts paid to that daft idea..

..and was the war fought to enforce the emancipation proclamations? were these not made during the war? Was it not fought to keep the union together and force the southern slave owning states back into the union? Slavery was at the centre of the causes of the war but it wasnt the whole story..

[Long Duck Dong]

I meant to say freed during the civil war.. although for many it was after the peace de facto.. but it doesnt alter the reality.. most of the rights gained by ex slaves and their descendants were won peacefully after the civil war and over the following century.. I know this is more true of those in the south rather than the north and elsewhere, but even there they were not considered equal to whites and there was much prejudice.. there remians much today and the struggle for true racial harmony continues..

In Britain and its empire there was another struggle much earlier for the freeing of slaves. and this did not invove a war to end it, although there were isolated conflicts in slave owning parts of the empire between the owners and the slaves.. and yes the British to there shame usually provided the military to end them in favour of the slave owners.. but even when slavery was ended, many of the same problems existed as did in the US... it was ok to free them, but then what? And dont blame pacifists for arguing what is right and when it is effected it going belly up.. we do not argue do something and then replace it with nothing.. I certainly don't anyway, and few others I know would either...of course upon abolition of slavery in both Britain and its Empire (which occured at different times) and in the United States and other slave owning nations, more should have been done to provide ways and means for the emancipated ex-slaves way to make a living.. the fault such as existed in all these nations which freed slaves lies with the governments of the day for not meeting theiir obligations to those people, and yes to the majority of people who had not been slaves and felt that freeing the slaves was it... no more need be done.. the century and a half after freeing slaves in Britain and its empire, and the century after the freeing of slaves in the United State puts paid to that daft idea..

..and was the war fought to enforce the emancipation proclamations? were these not made during the war? Was it not fought to keep the union together and force the southern slave owning states back into the union? Slavery was at the centre of the causes of the war but it wasnt the whole story..

people of color in the armed forces (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4p2967.html)

if you read carefully, you will notice that while blacks were discriminated against.... they also flocked to join the armies of the un-united states, fighting for the freedom of their brothers and sisters...not the fight for rights...

now the un-united states fought a internal war.... so it begs the question.... should have the un-united states, not fought that war....and allowed slavery to continue for another few 100 years while people talked about things over tea and scones..... and that would have increased the death count of slaves.....

please share your wisdom as the people of north korea are a lil sick of the constant * lets talk and find a peaceful solution * and they are starting to wonder how many more people have to die, while other people talk..... or does the rule of collateral damage apply here as well..... its ok if people die while talks take place, cos we want to avoid death by war.....

the people of iraq do not appear to be bitching at the us for getting rid of so damm insane.... sorry sadam insane...... I mean...... whats his face.... sure they are bitching over other things..... but I am kinda sure that most of iraq is kinda thankful......

that kinda leads me to hitler..... if talks had taken place with Britain over tea and scones etc, I reckon that would have given him just enuf time to kill every person in germany and a few other places that he had a issue with.... but hey thats better than a war, isn't it ?????

so tell me.... how do you stop a power mad person that is intent on mass murder without going in and getting the bastard..... and how do you justify the body count when you don't stop them

[lovescum2]

As far as article 85, it does not say only in time of war, what is says is that when not at war you have other options but that too is one of the options...

As Far as deserters, and them saying they were being forced to go back after they had served their commitment, If you read the contract that the military gives you before you sign it and say the oath it has several clauses, about that being a possibility... They knew it when they signed up...The military makes it perfectly clear what they expect from you when you join up... so yes let them stay in Canada or where ever they wish to go, Except NEVER let them return here....They are Traitors to their Country and their own brothers in arms!!!!!

Sorry to correct you DD but the civil war was not over slaves, it was an economic war for economic reasons, but was later made a moral issue when During the war Lincoln Signed the document towards the end of the war, to free the slaves..... It should have been one of the best reasons to start it, but sadly no it wasn't...

Sorry to say but yes friendly fire happens it happened a lot in Vietnam to lieutenants and other officers fresh faced and gung ho who needlessly and carelessly put men into harms way, needless to say deserters as well.

Everyone here acts like war is a new thing and that killing our fellow man was limited to the last Century...Sorry but since we climbed down out of the trees we have been killing each other (Most likely a few got pushed out of those tree's too)

tenni you act like America is the greatest evil in the world and that we are all blood thirsty murderers, no its just we care so much for people that we send our men and women to help. lets see WW1, WW2, and I believe both times that involved helping to save Europe which your country is part of. What happened to Europe helping to stop the Genocide in Bosnia, yes the UN was there and could do nothing to stop it...Why did the European people yell and scream "why aren't you Americans stopping it and are just letting it continue"...Hmmm It seems Bill Clinton finally did just that, but what happened to Europe taking the bull by the horns and doing it themselves ? It seems to me it was closer to you than us, but yet WE were made to help yet again...or watch more innocents die..

I think this thread should stop, We're all on opposite sides of the fence and will never convince each other that we are right, it just seems like a lot of wasted jaw wagging...The World is the way it is, because thats the way we received it from our ancestors who have been off and on at war for the last 100,000 years of our history at least.

People will never stop having wars till there are no more people left think about it....

[darkeyes]

people of color in the armed forces (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4p2967.html)

if you read carefully, you will notice that while blacks were discriminated against.... they also flocked to join the armies of the un-united states, fighting for the freedom of their brothers and sisters...not the fight for rights...

now the un-united states fought a internal war.... so it begs the question.... should have the un-united states, not fought that war....and allowed slavery to continue for another few 100 years while people talked about things over tea and scones..... and that would have increased the death count of slaves.....

please share your wisdom as the people of north korea are a lil sick of the constant * lets talk and find a peaceful solution * and they are starting to wonder how many more people have to die, while other people talk..... or does the rule of collateral damage apply here as well..... its ok if people die while talks take place, cos we want to avoid death by war.....

the people of iraq do not appear to be bitching at the us for getting rid of so damm insane.... sorry sadam insane...... I mean...... whats his face.... sure they are bitching over other things..... but I am kinda sure that most of iraq is kinda thankful......

that kinda leads me to hitler..... if talks had taken place with Britain over tea and scones etc, I reckon that would have given him just enuf time to kill every person in germany and a few other places that he had a issue with.... but hey thats better than a war, isn't it ?????

so tell me.... how do you stop a power mad person that is intent on mass murder without going in and getting the bastard..... and how do you justify the body count when you don't stop them

Duckie..do not insult my intelligence.. I know that thousands of blacks enlisted once they were allowed to and helped the Union win the war and free themselves from slavery... my point is that the civil war need never have been for I am conv inced that there were other more peaceful ways of settling the dispute between the states and secession and the war could have been avoided.. just as any war can be avoided.. wit will and etermination.. we are supposed to be a compassionate and intelligent species yet I know only too well how brutal and dim we can be..

It is so much less effort simply to go to war and sacrifice hundreds of thousands of lives and waste our precious natural and economic resources on fighting that war.. Hitler could have been stopped.. Wilson foresaw the rise of germany after Versailles and he saw the bitterness and what he felt was the inevitability of war because of the crippling reparations which the allies imposed on Germany which is why he and the United States opposed those clauses.. Lloyd george had reservations himself but he bottled it beacuse he wanted a treaty at any cost and the French were determined to cruush Germany forever.. even during his rise to power Hitler could have been stopped if the Europeans had opened there eyes and began to relax their economic grip on the country..or had Hindenburg not listened to foolish men who thought they could control the Nazis, and appointed Hitler Chancellor..Once the Nazis were in power, had the US and other nations not provided Germany with huge loans and guarantees which they knew were being used for building a massive military machine.. and even had Chamberlain and the French not been so stupid at Munich.. although that certainly involved a threat of war, but Germany, like Britain and France were hardly ready for war at that time.. it is not something therefore I like using as an example because of my pacifism but it is an example nonetheless..

In Iraq it should have been the people of Iraq who in time would settle the scaore with him..and in time they would replace him and his regime.. what exists now is imposed upon it by the western powers and it will unravel in time of that I am convinced.. and I am not convinced that Iraqis are not chomping at the bit with resentment at the US and British involvement in the country.. in fact I am bloody sure they are..

Similarly North Koreans will if left alone, in time replace the tyrant with a more compassionate form of government.. peoples do you know.. history is littered with examples.. sabre rattling is all very well but it is always likely to get out oif hand and escalate into something very nasty indeed.. we have an obligation as free peoples to encourage and aid as much as we can other peoples not free to attain their liberty from oppression.. but not by invading countries and going to war.. that is much mroe destructive and costly than allowing those peoples to resolve their own difficulties with theiir leaders.. and infinitely more unpredictable.

There are ways around these things short of war.. we just have to find them for they certainly exist..

[Long Duck Dong]

Duckie..do not insult my intelligence.. I know that thousands of blacks enlisted once they were allowed to and helped the Union win the war and free themselves from slavery... my point is that the civil war need never have been for I am conv inced that there were other more peaceful ways of settling the dispute between the states and secession and the war could have been avoided.. just as any war can be avoided.. wit will and etermination.. we are supposed to be a compassionate and intelligent species yet I know only too well how brutal and dim we can be..

It is so much less effort simply to go to war and sacrifice hundreds of thousands of lives and waste our precious natural and economic resources on fighting that war.. Hitler could have been stopped.. Wilson foresaw the rise of germany after Versailles and he saw the bitterness and what he felt was the inevitability of war because of the crippling reparations which the allies imposed on Germany which is why he and the United States opposed those clauses.. Lloyd george had reservations himself but he bottled it beacuse he wanted a treaty at any cost and the French were determined to cruush Germany forever.. even during his rise to power Hitler could have been stopped if the Europeans had opened there eyes and began to relax their economic grip on the country..or had Hindenburg not listened to foolish men who thought they could control the Nazis, and appointed Hitler Chancellor..Once the Nazis were in power, had the US and other nations not provided Germany with huge loans and guarantees which they knew were being used for building a massive military machine.. and even had Chamberlain and the French not been so stupid at Munich.. although that certainly involved a threat of war, but Germany, like Britain and France were hardly ready for war at that time.. it is not something therefore I like using as an example because of my pacifism but it is an example nonetheless..

In Iraq it should have been the people of Iraq who in time would settle the scaore with him..and in time they would replace him and his regime.. what exists now is imposed upon it by the western powers and it will unravel in time of that I am convinced.. and I am not convinced that Iraqis are not chomping at the bit with resentment at the US and British involvement in the country.. in fact I am bloody sure they are..

Similarly North Koreans will if left alone, in time replace the tyrant with a more compassionate form of government.. peoples do you know.. history is littered with examples.. sabre rattling is all very well but it is always likely to get out oif hand and escalate into something very nasty indeed.. we have an obligation as free peoples to encourage and aid as much as we can other peoples not free to attain their liberty from oppression.. but not by invading countries and going to war.. that is much mroe destructive and costly than allowing those peoples to resolve their own difficulties with theiir leaders.. and infinitely more unpredictable.

There are ways around these things short of war.. we just have to find them for they certainly exist..

and you, fran .....just justified and condoned the deaths of many people...... never judge a soldier for the blood on his hands, ... when you are happy to allow for the unneeded deaths of civilians by dictators.....

so much for the rights to freedom.... I guess its a pacifist / protestor thing that I will never understand.....

[darkeyes]

and you, fran .....just justified and condoned the deaths of many people...... never judge a soldier for the blood on his hands, ... when you are happy to allow for the unneeded deaths of civilians by dictators.....

so much for the rights to freedom.... I guess its a pacifist / protestor thing that I will never understand.....

Not in the least duckie.. I justify no death... what I say is that far too many nations, not just in the west, feel they have the right to wander into another country on whatever the pretext and enforce its standards and its power upon that nation.. we in the west .. we do not do it to every tyranny.. actually we do it to relatively few.. but we do it to those with whom we have a grievance, perceived or otherwise.. or when we want something.. such as oil.. and then justify the slaughter and imposition of our ways, and try and articulate it as the overthrow of the tyrant.. what I am saying Duckie is that there are better ways to achieve the ends of removing tyrants from power.. warring upon them is haphazard and dangerous and can easily spiral out of control.. and it is odd is it not that we war upon those tyrannies which are perceived as being easy meat.. and that easy meat always turns out to be much more trouble to chew than the invading power believes it to be.. we do not though do it to our own tyrannies.. those who are our friends and allies and who we prop up.. such as once was the case of Saddam..or the Taliban.. the dog doesnt always stay tame when you feed it you know.. and we never seem to learn that..

Invading a country to enforce regime change under international law is illegal.. that is why in both Iran and Afghanistan other reasons were found to justify those invasions.. it is illegal for very good reason... it is illegal to try and prevent any country.. tyranny or democracy from being trampled under foot by other powers.. yes tyranny is wrong.. but what is tyranny? Tyranny can mean many different things.. a famous old Tory politician referred to the British electoral system as "elective dictatorship".. and by extension any other parliamentary or representative democracy.. it can easily be argued by some that elective dictatorship is a tyranny and therefore up for grabs by en external power to remove that tyranny.. regime change is therefore illegal to prevent states from invading other states simply because they do not like that regime.. imperfect sure.. but morally correct.. because there are other ways to achieve that aim.. and in any case.. it is for the people of any state to decide their future however difficult it will be.. not for us on the outside to decide what is good for them in accord with our sense of morality and our sense of decency.. each culture has its own.. and we in the west dont really give a bugger about that and our political masters know it..

Freedom to you and I is one thing.. freedom to a person from another nation, on another continent with a totally different culture means something completely different.. and thats where most of us in the west show our arrogance.. it is where any nation in any part of the world which invades another to enforce regime change shows its arrogance..

[DuckiesDarling]

*coughs* looks at a thread about stoning... *coughs*

[Long Duck Dong]

Not in the least duckie.. I justify no death... what I say is that far too many nations, not just in the west, feel they have the right to wander into another country on whatever the pretext and enforce its standards and its power upon that nation.. we in the west .. we do not do it to every tyranny.. actually we do it to relatively few.. but we do it to those with whom we have a grievance, perceived or otherwise.. or when we want something.. such as oil.. and then justify the slaughter and imposition of our ways, and try and articulate it as the overthrow of the tyrant.. what I am saying Duckie is that there are better ways to achieve the ends of removing tyrants from power.. warring upon them is haphazard and dangerous and can easily spiral out of control.. and it is odd is it not that we war upon those tyrannies which are perceived as being easy meat.. and that easy meat always turns out to be much more trouble to chew than the invading power believes it to be.. we do not though do it to our own tyrannies.. those who are our friends and allies and who we prop up.. such as once was the case of Saddam..or the Taliban.. the dog doesnt always stay tame when you feed it you know.. and we never seem to learn that..

Invading a country to enforce regime change under international law is illegal.. that is why in both Iran and Afghanistan other reasons were found to justify those invasions.. it is illegal for very good reason... it is illegal to try and prevent any country.. tyranny or democracy from being trampled under foot by other powers.. yes tyranny is wrong.. but what is tyranny? Tyranny can mean many different things.. a famous old Tory politician referred to the British electoral system as "elective dictatorship".. and by extension any other parliamentary or representative democracy.. it can easily be argued by some that elective dictatorship is a tyranny and therefore up for grabs by en external power to remove that tyranny.. regime change is therefore illegal to prevent states from invading other states simply because they do not like that regime.. imperfect sure.. but morally correct.. because there are other ways to achieve that aim.. and in any case.. it is for the people of any state to decide their future however difficult it will be.. not for us on the outside to decide what is good for them in accord with our sense of morality and our sense of decency.. each culture has its own.. and we in the west dont really give a bugger about that and our political masters know it..

Freedom to you and I is one thing.. freedom to a person from another nation, on another continent with a totally different culture means something completely different.. and thats where most of us in the west show our arrogance.. it is where any nation in any part of the world which invades another to enforce regime change shows its arrogance..

you do not agree with war and think that war is wrong.... yet, say that people in countries of dictators should be allowed to rise up against their opposers ( civil war )

that we should not interfere and contradict terms to other countries... yet, israel should bow down to orders from other countries cos we say the blockade is wrong.....

that culture and belief in other countries is part of that countries heritage and way of being.... yet we should oppose anything in other cultures and countries that we do not agree with......


now maybe you can see why I made the statement that the human race is a walking talking contradiction.....
human rights, equal rights, rights to peace etc etc etc.... all sound good in theory.... until you try to apply them.... then you have to have contradicting opinions on every aspect as they are not all black and white..... but many shades of grey.....

there is a reason buddahist monks make good pacifists.... they stay the hell out of everything, ...they have the wisdom to realise that you can not be a peaceful person as long as you believe in a cause..... and the only place that peace can truely exist, is in a persons own head.... cos the only person that can disagree with them, is themselves.... and that removes all opposition, arguments, debates and discord........

you can not make the world a equal place, without making everybody equal.... yet not everybody wants to be equal.....

[darkeyes]

you do not agree with war and think that war is wrong.... yet, say that people in countries of dictators should be allowed to rise up against their opposers ( civil war )

that we should not interfere and contradict terms to other countries... yet, israel should bow down to orders from other countries cos we say the blockade is wrong.....

that culture and belief in other countries is part of that countries heritage and way of being.... yet we should oppose anything in other cultures and countries that we do not agree with......


now maybe you can see why I made the statement that the human race is a walking talking contradiction.....
human rights, equal rights, rights to peace etc etc etc.... all sound good in theory.... until you try to apply them.... then you have to have contradicting opinions on every aspect as they are not all black and white..... but many shades of grey.....

there is a reason buddahist monks make good pacifists.... they stay the hell out of everything, ...they have the wisdom to realise that you can not be a peaceful person as long as you believe in a cause..... and the only place that peace can truely exist, is in a persons own head.... cos the only person that can disagree with them, is themselves.... and that removes all opposition, arguments, debates and discord........

you can not make the world a equal place, without making everybody equal.... yet not everybody wants to be equal.....

Did the people of the Phillipines have civil war when they rose up an doverthrew Marcos.. or did the states of the old Soviet Union rise up and have civil war when it finally broke up? Did the peoples of the old eastern bloc do so as one after another they fell out of the grip of Tyranny and dictatorship? Did Portugal as it overthrew fascism after the death on Salazar in the 1980's? Did Iran after the overthrow of the Shah (whatever we think of the result).. was there Civil war in South Africa after the fall of Apartheid? No Duckie..there are many instances where the people of a nation have risen up against their tyrannical masters and replaced them with something bettr (or arguably better in some cases..).. I am talking of passive revolution which does not mean people do nothing.. it does mean however that they do not rise up and destroy the nation and slaughter each other.. it does mean they act and take from the tyrant the reigns of power.. that is people power.. true people power.. what they do with it is their affair... but whatever they do with it.. they will have done it for themselves..

In the case of Israel, as with all other nations who are either tyrannical oor brazenly break international law, it is the obligation of all nations when they see such breaches that they do what they can to ensure that those states obey international law and basic human rights which most states have signed up to.. they pressurise yes... they do NOT invade and have a war..

Yes human beings are full of contradictions.. life is full of them but we have to strive to overcome them..

.. and not all Buddhist monks stay out of the way Duckie.. many actively sacrifice themselves standing up to tyranny... not all are as you say..many are quite the contrary without sacrificing what they believe..

[Long Duck Dong]

Did the people of the Phillipines have civil war when they rose up an doverthrew Marcos.. or did the states of the old Soviet Union rise up and have civil war when it finally broke up? Did the peoples of the old eastern bloc do so as one after another they fell out of the grip of Tyranny and dictatorship? Did Portugal as it overthrew fascism after the death on Salazar in the 1980's? Did Iran after the overthrow of the Shah (whatever we think of the result).. was there Civil war in South Africa after the fall of Apartheid? No Duckie..there are many instances where the people of a nation have risen up against their tyrannical masters and replaced them with something bettr (or arguably better in some cases..).. I am talking of passive revolution which does not mean people do nothing.. it does mean however that they do not rise up and destroy the nation and slaughter each other.. it does mean they act and take from the tyrant the reigns of power.. that is people power.. true people power.. what they do with it is their affair... but whatever they do with it.. they will have done it for themselves..

In the case of Israel, as with all other nations who are either tyrannical oor brazenly break international law, it is the obligation of all nations when they see such breaches that they do what they can to ensure that those states obey international law and basic human rights which most states have signed up to.. they pressurise yes... they do NOT invade and have a war..

Yes human beings are full of contradictions.. life is full of them but we have to strive to overcome them..

.. and not all Buddhist monks stay out of the way Duckie.. many actively sacrifice themselves standing up to tyranny... not all are as you say..many are quite the contrary without sacrificing what they believe..

and what happened in the phillipines
The return of democracy and government reforms after the events of 1986 were hampered by national debt, government corruption, coup attempts, a persistent communist insurgency, and Islamic separatists. The economy improved during the administration of Fidel V. Ramos, who was elected president in 1992.[47] However, the economic improvements were negated with the onset of the East Asian financial crisis in 1997. In 2001, amid charges of corruption and a stalled impeachment process, Ramos' successor Joseph Ejercito Estrada was ousted from the presidency by the 2001 EDSA Revolution and replaced by Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo. As a result of the May 2010 elections, Benigno "Noynoy" Aquino III was elected president.

and what happened in the old soviet union
In August 1991, an unsuccessful military coup, directed against Gorbachev and aimed at preserving the Soviet Union, instead led to its collapse. In Russian SFSR, Boris Yeltsin came to power and declared the end of socialist rule. The USSR splintered into fifteen independent republics and was officially dissolved in December 1991. Boris Yeltsin was elected the President of Russia in June 1991, in the first direct presidential election in Russian history.

and what has happened in portugal
Portugal has arguably the most liberal laws concerning possession of illicit drugs in the Western world. In 2001 Portugal decriminalized possession of effectively all drugs that are still illegal in other developed nations including, but not limited to, marijuana, cocaine, heroin, and LSD. While possession is legal, trafficking and possession of more than "10 days worth of personal use" are still punishable by jail time and fines. Since decriminalization was implemented, Portugal has seen rapid improvement in the number of deaths from drug overdoses as well as a decline in new HIV infections

and what happened in iran
points to your stoning thread.... and notes that the lady still faces death..... and that another 13 women and 3 men face death by stoning...... read the news reports

and hell yeah... SA is really peaceful now isn't it

yeah fran I have to hand it to you... they are better off now...... drug usage and hiv..... starvation, long waiting lines for food, corruption of government... civil unrest.... military intervention......

but yeah, they are so much better off now...... instead of civil war.... they are fuckin imploding...... woohoo......

sorry fran.... but thats just trading one pile of shit for another.......

and I am still failing to see how this proves that your way works....

[darkeyes]

and what happened in the phillipines
The return of democracy and government reforms after the events of 1986 were hampered by national debt, government corruption, coup attempts, a persistent communist insurgency, and Islamic separatists. The economy improved during the administration of Fidel V. Ramos, who was elected president in 1992.[47] However, the economic improvements were negated with the onset of the East Asian financial crisis in 1997. In 2001, amid charges of corruption and a stalled impeachment process, Ramos' successor Joseph Ejercito Estrada was ousted from the presidency by the 2001 EDSA Revolution and replaced by Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo. As a result of the May 2010 elections, Benigno "Noynoy" Aquino III was elected president.

and what happened in the old soviet union
In August 1991, an unsuccessful military coup, directed against Gorbachev and aimed at preserving the Soviet Union, instead led to its collapse. In Russian SFSR, Boris Yeltsin came to power and declared the end of socialist rule. The USSR splintered into fifteen independent republics and was officially dissolved in December 1991. Boris Yeltsin was elected the President of Russia in June 1991, in the first direct presidential election in Russian history.

and what has happened in portugal
Portugal has arguably the most liberal laws concerning possession of illicit drugs in the Western world. In 2001 Portugal decriminalized possession of effectively all drugs that are still illegal in other developed nations including, but not limited to, marijuana, cocaine, heroin, and LSD. While possession is legal, trafficking and possession of more than "10 days worth of personal use" are still punishable by jail time and fines. Since decriminalization was implemented, Portugal has seen rapid improvement in the number of deaths from drug overdoses as well as a decline in new HIV infections

and what happened in iran
points to your stoning thread.... and notes that the lady still faces death..... and that another 13 women and 3 men face death by stoning...... read the news reports

and hell yeah... SA is really peaceful now isn't it

yeah fran I have to hand it to you... they are better off now...... drug usage and hiv..... starvation, long waiting lines for food, corruption of government... civil unrest.... military intervention......

but yeah, they are so much better off now...... instead of civil war.... they are fuckin imploding...... woohoo......

sorry fran.... but thats just trading one pile of shit for another.......

and I am still failing to see how this proves that your way works....

I was actually talking about the republics which were created after the dissolution of the Soviet Union but no matter.. the point remains.. the people of those countries have been allowed to make their own mistakes..they are far from perfect I agree.. but it is they who decide what is to happen in those countries.. and if u believe they are worse off now than before their revolutions then you and I have a completely different idea of what the expression "better off" means.. you keep arguing that war is better than the alternative or so it seems to me.. I doubt the peoples of those countries and others I have mentioned would agree.. even the poorest and worst of them.. of course there are those who hanker back to the "good old days".. but that happens in every society..even prosperous ones.. in the case of Portugal we now a modern and much more dynamic country than it ever was during the Salazar years.. in the case of the former Soviet republics, huge problems and even occasionally conflcit internally and externally, but the main thing is that each is far more prosperous than was the case when the Soviet union disintegrated..and the people have some form of say in how their country is run.. the eastern European States of the eastern bloc which had been crushed under foot by the Soviet Union became free posperous democracies within the European union for the most part and allies and friends of the west..no longer enemy and rival..and remember Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, cannot be said to be impoverished violent and unhappy societies.. and you are telling me all these countries would rather have war and a brutal revolution or invasion than do what they did for themselves relatively but remarkably peacefully peacefully.. even in the Philipines I doubt the people of that country would wish to go back to the way things were under Marcos.. yet if they did.. then that is for them to choose to do so..

Every one of those states has massive problems..I agree with that.. but so does every nation on the planet.. poverty, starvation, HIV, drugs, discrimination, inequality, economic woes of one kind or other.. even natiuons like New Zealnd, Australia, the US, the UK, France, Germany(united..peacefully.. by people power.. is that a failure too?) India (freed by passive revolution and granted independence) China and Japan.. no nation is exempt from problems.. don't u dare tell me that passive revolution doesnt work.. with problems it has worked remarkably well in many nations and those nations are making a much better fist of their countries than they ever would had they done it violently and warred... many are prosperous democratic and share many of the values with the west which not so long ago would have been unthinkable.. whether that is a good thing can easily be debated.. yet there they are peaceful members of the international community who achieved what they have..warts and all.. without civil war, without violent revolution and without external invasion..

[tenni]

"that we should not interfere and contradict terms to other countries... yet, israel should bow down to orders from other countries cos we say the blockade is wrong....."

These two statements seem contradictory and illustrate the difference between self determination and external imposition of rule.

The US tried to impose its will on another sovereign country. With all of its military weapons and shock and awe strength the US found that it was not as easy to control as it had thought. External imposition of change is much more difficult. It may work for a period but not unless the people of that country support it. That is why NATO is encouraging negotiations between the Taliban and Kharzai. A belief in might is right is pressuring The Taliban and maybe the US to continue killing people. Who knows...maybe Kharzai is speaking out of both sides of his mouth and asking for more military might. It doesn't seem so though. Kharzai seems to be finally seeing that might is not right if you care for your people.

Whether it is the Soviet Union collapsing without too much violence or other examples, the Soviet Union did collapse due to internal matters and outsiders had very very very very little to do with the collapse (despite the political propaganda from factions of a certain country). The economic factors were the most important and the iron grip of the various satellite countries could not be maintained outside of a few such as Belarus...which seems basically Russian.

Israel on the other hand is a sovereign country supported by a great amount of funds and weapons from the USA. Israel attempts to control a satellite , Gaza. Gaza sees itself as self determining. Blockading Gaza is about the same as the USSR controlling Poland. The will of the Polish people and other satellite countries was not to stay with Russia. They hated Russia. I was there. When Russia no longer had the economic control of even its own cities such as Lennongrade/ Petersberg, the Moscow government saw Petersberg defy the system of sending goods to cities and bought the goods that it wanted from outside of Russia. This was unheard of defiance even with the threat of the military entering Petersberg. (again I was there shortly after) Petersberg had the economic power, a strong leader mayor and will to defy Moscow. Moscow leaders such as Gorbechev saw this coming and tried to ease the end of the USSR with glasnost. Even today, it would be foolish to think of Russia as a copy democracy of the West. It was never the will of the people.

With the present questionable economic status of the USA, predictions indicate that within a few years all of the tax money will go to pay the interest on the US debt unless there are drastic changes. In the entire history of the US it is reported that there never has been a war without raising taxes to pay for it(waits for denial...dunno just what I saw/read). Will the US continue to give funds and weapons to Israel in five or ten years without making a drastic fiscal change? Will the US withdraw its military from hundreds of foreign military bases or let its people suffer? Will Israel survive without the military might of the US? Time will tell. I would bet on Israel being able to survive without US funding or military because the people want it to survive. Gaza and Palestine will eventually become sovereign countries because the people want to be sovereign as much as the colonists wanted to be sovereign from Britain. Military violence and control only extends the birth of the nations.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

I think you's guys need to agree to disagree and let it go! Geez...:rolleyes:
I love ya'll but how many times can the same things be said?
Cat

[darkeyes]

I think you's guys need to agree to disagree and let it go! Geez...:rolleyes:
I love ya'll but how many times can the same things be said?
Cat

Dontcha worry bout me, Cat.. we off on our hols 1st thing Sunday mornin..2 weeks a plonk, luffin an havin fun... not gonna b near a computer.. bed, bottles n bars a lot in tween entertainin the kids:tong:....o yea..an shoppin.. tee hee:bigrin: but no computers...:tong:

[Long Duck Dong]

I was actually talking about the republics which were created after the dissolution of the Soviet Union but no matter.. the point remains.. the people of those countries have been allowed to make their own mistakes..they are far from perfect I agree.. but it is they who decide what is to happen in those countries.. and if u believe they are worse off now than before their revolutions then you and I have a completely different idea of what the expression "better off" means.. you keep arguing that war is better than the alternative or so it seems to me.. I doubt the peoples of those countries and others I have mentioned would agree.. even the poorest and worst of them.. of course there are those who hanker back to the "good old days".. but that happens in every society..even prosperous ones.. in the case of Portugal we now a modern and much more dynamic country than it ever was during the Salazar years.. in the case of the former Soviet republics, huge problems and even occasionally conflcit internally and externally, but the main thing is that each is far more prosperous than was the case when the Soviet union disintegrated..and the people have some form of say in how their country is run.. the eastern European States of the eastern bloc which had been crushed under foot by the Soviet Union became free posperous democracies within the European union for the most part and allies and friends of the west..no longer enemy and rival..and remember Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, cannot be said to be impoverished violent and unhappy societies.. and you are telling me all these countries would rather have war and a brutal revolution or invasion than do what they did for themselves relatively but remarkably peacefully peacefully.. even in the Philipines I doubt the people of that country would wish to go back to the way things were under Marcos.. yet if they did.. then that is for them to choose to do so..

Every one of those states has massive problems..I agree with that.. but so does every nation on the planet.. poverty, starvation, HIV, drugs, discrimination, inequality, economic woes of one kind or other.. even natiuons like New Zealnd, Australia, the US, the UK, France, Germany(united..peacefully.. by people power.. is that a failure too?) India (freed by passive revolution and granted independence) China and Japan.. no nation is exempt from problems.. don't u dare tell me that passive revolution doesnt work.. with problems it has worked remarkably well in many nations and those nations are making a much better fist of their countries than they ever would had they done it violently and warred... many are prosperous democratic and share many of the values with the west which not so long ago would have been unthinkable.. whether that is a good thing can easily be debated.. yet there they are peaceful members of the international community who achieved what they have..warts and all.. without civil war, without violent revolution and without external invasion..

I am not arguing that war is better...... I am saying that there are times that quick action is better than sitting around with your heads up ya asses having tea and scones....

in theory, talking works....but there are times that you can not just talk, you have to act....... protests are a clear example of that...... protesters may be happy to talk but the activists ( black bloc in canada for example ) have no intention of talking...they are out to rise hell....so action has to be taken....

if talking worked, the riot police could have had the day off... but talking only works when people want to sit down and talk..... action is needed when talking is no good..... the same applies to war......

they tried to talk to and pacify hitler..... and it failed, so war ensued......
history is full of examples when talking was not a option, you either fought your arse off, or you died or became a slave.....

as for nz, in less then 150 years, we did what has taken the us more than 250 years, and they are still far behind us in rights and equality.....

as for nz, in less then 150 years, we have gone from settling a country, thru civil wars, to a point where everybody is treated basically the same..... yet in scotland xmas was still banned up until about the 1950s.....

but in nz, we are not united.... its still maoris ( 14% of the nz population ) demanding the lions share of land and money and getting it.... cos they have made it clear, its their way or civil war.....

thats the thing fran... there is no freedom.... only a consistent underlying rage against the system by people that think their way is better.....
in civilian life, its called the police force v's the civilian public

[stormalong]

When a man or woman signs his enlistment documents he agrees to serve for 4 years active duty. He is then on call for 4 years afterwards. It used to be the active reserves for 2 years, then the inactive (they know your adress) for 2 more. Now it's all inactive after your release from active duty. But, you can be called back at any time during that 4 years. you agreed to this when you enlisted for your college fund or whatever. Suck it up and DO YOUR DUTY!!! I love this country. It isn't perfect, but it continually tries to be perfect. we enslaved black people for a few decades-actually a couple centuries- but then they were invited to join into what this nation was becoming. We/they killed off better than 75% of the Indians but those that are left are encouraged to be a part of what this nation is still becomming. I am 1/4 Kiowa, that's why I say we/THEY. This is the only nation on the planet that admits it may've fucked the pooch here and there, and then tries to straighten the pooch out. I have been all over the planet, this IS, with out a doubt, the free est nation on Earth.

[AdamKadmon43]

I love ya'll but how many times can the same things be said?
Cat

Numerous times..... apparently.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Whether it is the Soviet Union collapsing without too much violence or other examples, the Soviet Union did collapse due to internal matters and outsiders had very very very very little to do with the collapse (despite the political propaganda from factions of a certain country). The economic factors were the most important and the iron grip of the various satellite countries could not be maintained outside of a few such as Belarus...which seems basically Russian.

The Soviet Union collapsed because the US outspent it. The Soviets were so afraid that we would have bigger and better weapons that it tried to keep up...and it couldn't. War still brought down the soviet union...just a different kind.


Israel on the other hand is a sovereign country supported by a great amount of funds and weapons from the USA. Israel attempts to control a satellite , Gaza. Gaza sees itself as self determining. Blockading Gaza is about the same as the USSR controlling Poland.

No. This is about as incorrect an analogy as could be thought of. Poland never tried to take over Russia. Poland never had AS ITS WRITTEN, STATED, GOAL, THE ERADICATION of Russia.

Y'all keep forgetting that. Hamas (and the Fattah) both have, AS IT'S WRITTEN, STATED GOAL, THE ERADICATION OF ISRAEL. There is not moral equivalent here.

If Hamas wanted this to end, it could. Today. But, it doesn't. It only sees the end when Israel no longer exists. Until you, specifically, Tenni, acknowledge this, you can not be considered to have anything other than your head up your ass. Because these aren't opinions, these are facts.



With the present questionable economic status of the USA, predictions indicate that within a few years all of the tax money will go to pay the interest on the US debt unless there are drastic changes. In the entire history of the US it is reported that there never has been a war without raising taxes to pay for it(waits for denial...dunno just what I saw/read). Will the US continue to give funds and weapons to Israel in five or ten years without making a drastic fiscal change? Will the US withdraw its military from hundreds of foreign military bases or let its people suffer? Will Israel survive without the military might of the US? Time will tell. I would bet on Israel being able to survive without US funding or military because the people want it to survive. Gaza and Palestine will eventually become sovereign countries because the people want to be sovereign as much as the colonists wanted to be sovereign from Britain. Military violence and control only extends the birth of the nations.

Yup, the US is in an economic shit hole right now. Thanks to us following your example with universal healthcare, it's only going to get worse. Gee...good think China, England, Canada, and Russia aren't tied to us so that if we fail so do they economically....oops...too late for that, eh?

You'd best quit rooting against us and start rooting for us. Because if we collapse economically, so do you and so does most of the world. The rest of the world is economically [i]built[/] on the US economy. If the American people don't buy your goods, what do you think is going to happen to you? That goes for practically every nation on the planet, btw. The fact is, when we go away, so does every production facility, every plant, every mass market industry. Also, just as an aside, so does just about every telecommunications satellite, and the means to get them up to space (no, the EU space agency just doesn't have the ability to get enough up in enough time). And that's not even talking about the aid we give, or the food, or the wheat or all of the other services we provide around the world that we'd no longer be able to afford.

Yeah, we're looking at some dark days ahead of us. Lucky for us, our survival is key for the survival of most nations on earth. You have a vested interest in our success. Darn the luck. Eh?

As for Israel, we'll keep supporting them as long as shitholes like Gaza, Iran, Syria, Jordan and the rest keep trying to destroy them.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

The Soviet Union collapsed because the US outspent it. The Soviets were so afraid that we would have bigger and better weapons that it tried to keep up...and it couldn't. War still brought down the soviet union...just a different kind.



No. This is about as incorrect an analogy as could be thought of. Poland never tried to take over Russia. Poland never had AS ITS WRITTEN, STATED, GOAL, THE ERADICATION of Russia.

Y'all keep forgetting that. Hamas (and the Fattah) both have, AS IT'S WRITTEN, STATED GOAL, THE ERADICATION OF ISRAEL. There is not moral equivalent here.

If Hamas wanted this to end, it could. Today. But, it doesn't. It only sees the end when Israel no longer exists. Until you, specifically, Tenni, acknowledge this, you can not be considered to have anything other than your head up your ass. Because these aren't opinions, these are facts.




Yup, the US is in an economic shit hole right now. Thanks to us following your example with universal healthcare, it's only going to get worse. Gee...good think China, England, Canada, and Russia aren't tied to us so that if we fail so do they economically....oops...too late for that, eh?

You'd best quit rooting against us and start rooting for us. Because if we collapse economically, so do you and so does most of the world. The rest of the world is economically [i]built[/] on the US economy. If the American people don't buy your goods, what do you think is going to happen to you? That goes for practically every nation on the planet, btw. The fact is, when we go away, so does every production facility, every plant, every mass market industry. Also, just as an aside, so does just about every telecommunications satellite, and the means to get them up to space (no, the EU space agency just doesn't have the ability to get enough up in enough time). And that's not even talking about the aid we give, or the food, or the wheat or all of the other services we provide around the world that we'd no longer be able to afford.

Yeah, we're looking at some dark days ahead of us. Lucky for us, our survival is key for the survival of most nations on earth. You have a vested interest in our success. Darn the luck. Eh?

As for Israel, we'll keep supporting them as long as shitholes like Gaza, Iran, Syria, Jordan and the rest keep trying to destroy them.

Pasa

Could argue with much of what you say and actually agree with one part.. the Soviet Union collapse was in part down to its economic war with the US.. it simply could not keep up with the military spending and its economy was in a an absolute mess .. there were many other factors but yes.. the overbearing cost of trying to keep up did help its collapse..

But two points if I may be so bold..

1. You have followed no ones example on universal health care.. you have gone down a unique and very unstaisfactory route which may or may not work. If you had followed the examples of other more socially progressive states, you would have had a state owned and operated national health service, paid for out of taxation, free to all whenever it was required. What you do have can hardly be described as that, but what you do have is much much better than you had previously..

2. Israel will be supported by the United States as long as it is politically expedient to do so...and not one minute longer.

But you remain as cocky and arrogant as ever.. the world would survive quite well tyvm without the United States and its economy.. yes it would be much more difficult because the US economy is such an important part of the global economy.. and while the US is such a huge power house, in time the world would adjust and it would begin to move forward.. it can be argued that because the US is such a power house, that the world is held back by that everwhelming economic dominance. It would survive, not without difficulty, just as it has survived a million and one other things throughout human history.. but is Tenni talking about economic collapse? Or more likely as I would argue, the US has begun a slow economic decline relative to the rest of the world.. and in such circustances then the world could much more easily absorb any future collapse of the economy of the USA.

[darkeyes]

I am not arguing that war is better...... I am saying that there are times that quick action is better than sitting around with your heads up ya asses having tea and scones....

in theory, talking works....but there are times that you can not just talk, you have to act....... protests are a clear example of that...... protesters may be happy to talk but the activists ( black bloc in canada for example ) have no intention of talking...they are out to rise hell....so action has to be taken....

if talking worked, the riot police could have had the day off... but talking only works when people want to sit down and talk..... action is needed when talking is no good..... the same applies to war......

they tried to talk to and pacify hitler..... and it failed, so war ensued......
history is full of examples when talking was not a option, you either fought your arse off, or you died or became a slave.....

as for nz, in less then 150 years, we did what has taken the us more than 250 years, and they are still far behind us in rights and equality.....

as for nz, in less then 150 years, we have gone from settling a country, thru civil wars, to a point where everybody is treated basically the same..... yet in scotland xmas was still banned up until about the 1950s.....

but in nz, we are not united.... its still maoris ( 14% of the nz population ) demanding the lions share of land and money and getting it.... cos they have made it clear, its their way or civil war.....

thats the thing fran... there is no freedom.... only a consistent underlying rage against the system by people that think their way is better.....
in civilian life, its called the police force v's the civilian public

Duckie me luffly... have lots to do 2 day before me shoots off 2 foreign climes.. so not gonna hav big row wivya.. but can me correctya on 1 lil teensy weensy lil point ya raised..

Christmas was never banned in Scotland (at least not since the good old days of the Commonwealth when we were a republic for the only time in our history).. Christmas was not a public holiday, but it was celebrated. It was NOT banned. Schools had their Christmas holidays just like now... The traditional family time in Scotland was New Year, but since the 1950s this has increasingl moved to be Christmas, although many of the New Year traditions survive.Similarly I believe in England and Wales, New Year was not a public holiday until the early 1970's

[Long Duck Dong]

1. You have followed no ones example on universal health care.. you have gone down a unique and very unstaisfactory route which may or may not work. If you had followed the examples of other more socially progressive states, you would have had a state owned and operated national health service, paid for out of taxation, free to all whenever it was required. What you do have can hardly be described as that, but what you do have is much much better than you had previously..


yeah we have the state owned and operated national health care.... that is dropping people off waiting lists by the thousands..... have years long surgery lists ( cos its got no money to pay for the costs ),..... will prioritize surgery by how famous you are.... or if you are rich and insured, you can have private surgery....

meanwhile the average employer has to pay a subsidy ( acc levy ) to cover employees that injury themselves playing sports etc..... and vehicle owners have to pay a acc levy to cover the cost of drunk drivers....

having a free health service doesn't mean you will have decent health care.... what you will have, is what the money can provide, and when the money runs out, so does your health care........

next example of how great your system works, fran

[Long Duck Dong]

Duckie me luffly... have lots to do 2 day before me shoots off 2 foreign climes.. so not gonna hav big row wivya.. but can me correctya on 1 lil teensy weensy lil point ya raised..

Christmas was never banned in Scotland (at least not since the good old days of the Commonwealth when we were a republic for the only time in our history).. Christmas was not a public holiday, but it was celebrated. It was NOT banned. Schools had their Christmas holidays just like now... The traditional family time in Scotland was New Year, but since the 1950s this has increasingl moved to be Christmas, although many of the New Year traditions survive.Similarly I believe in England and Wales, New Year was not a public holiday until the early 1970's


google it fran..... then tell the rest of the net they are wrong.....

Christmas Celebrations Banned in Scotland! After the Church Reformation in the 16th century the celebration of Christmas was frowned on by the Kirk which regarded it as a popish festival. "Christmas" is "Christ's Mass" and mass was banned in Scotland at that time! There are records of charges being brought against people for keeping "Yule" as it was called in Scotland. Amazingly, this dour, joy-crushing attitude lasted for 400 years. Until the 1960s, Christmas Day was a normal working day for most people in Scotland. If there is a specifically "Scottish" aspect to Christmas it is that it was not celebrated which is why Hogmanay became so popular.

[darkeyes]

google it fran..... then tell the rest of the net they are wrong.....

Christmas Celebrations Banned in Scotland! After the Church Reformation in the 16th century the celebration of Christmas was frowned on by the Kirk which regarded it as a popish festival. "Christmas" is "Christ's Mass" and mass was banned in Scotland at that time! There are records of charges being brought against people for keeping "Yule" as it was called in Scotland. Amazingly, this dour, joy-crushing attitude lasted for 400 years. Until the 1960s, Christmas Day was a normal working day for most people in Scotland. If there is a specifically "Scottish" aspect to Christmas it is that it was not celebrated which is why Hogmanay became so popular.

It was considered a normal working day Duckie.. the Kirk of Scotland discouraged its celebration for the very reasons u mention, but it was not banned. Prior to it being declared a public holiday in Scotland in the 1950s (not 60s as u say) the Church of Scotland had already begun to soften its attitude to Christmas. Catholics were able to celebrate mass, and the episcopal church its services as were other Christian denominations. Celebration was NOT illegal, and has NOT been so since the days of Cromwell. But you are right in that the Kirk were a right miserable lot.. the wee Frees still are about it. (the Free Kirk of Scotland who broke away from the Kirk in the 19th century..).

Hogmanay and the New Year celebrations are still as popular, but its nature has changed, and is no longer the family festival it was until quite recently because of Christmas now being a public holiday. I was raised in a family which did not celebrate Christmas in the sense that we did not celebrate it as the birth of a saviour. We had Christmas day and we had pressies like other kids.. my parents werent killjoys.. we tarted the house up but no religious icons were on show (save maybe for cards received from other peeps).. Christmas was for the bairns, and remains so.

But my family retained.. AND retains Ne'erday as the time ALL of the family get together for a celebration of the year past, and the year to come, and where we express our hopes for the future. And a bloody good bash it is too. We also retain the tradition of gift giving.. although in a much smaller way than for Christmas and the gifts are small personal items to help us on our way for the following year.

But to go back to the original point Duckie..it may have been discouraged by the established Church of the country.. and it may not have been a holiday.. but neither it, or its celebration were banned.

[stormalong]

Europe couldn't afford healthcare at all if it wasn't for the States. There is no military in Europe to speak of, because they all depend on those evil Americans to protect them. Should they have to provide their own militaries, they wouldn'r be able to afford health care. If the US of A was to disappear today the rest of the world WOULD be at war within 6 months. Universal Health care is the biggest crock of shit since Eve ate the apple. But the whole planet has been conditioned into expecting a handout, so the Govs have to give it to them. I wonder what my grandkids will be expecting from the Gov't?.....

[Long Duck Dong]

It was considered a normal working day Duckie.. the Kirk of Scotland discouraged its celebration for the very reasons u mention, but it was not banned. Prior to it being declared a public holiday in Scotland in the 1950s (not 60s as u say) the Church of Scotland had already begun to soften its attitude to Christmas. Catholics were able to celebrate mass, and the episcopal church its services as were other Christian denominations. Celebration was NOT illegal, and has NOT been so since the days of Cromwell. But you are right in that the Kirk were a right miserable lot.. the wee Frees still are about it. (the Free Kirk of Scotland who broke away from the Kirk in the 19th century..).

Hogmanay and the New Year celebrations are still as popular, but its nature has changed, and is no longer the family festival it was until quite recently because of Christmas now being a public holiday. I was raised in a family which did not celebrate Christmas in the sense that we did not celebrate it as the birth of a saviour. We had Christmas day and we had pressies like other kids.. my parents werent killjoys.. we tarted the house up but no religious icons were on show (save maybe for cards received from other peeps).. Christmas was for the bairns, and remains so.

But my family retained.. AND retains Ne'erday as the time ALL of the family get together for a celebration of the year past, and the year to come, and where we express our hopes for the future. And a bloody good bash it is too. We also retain the tradition of gift giving.. although in a much smaller way than for Christmas and the gifts are small personal items to help us on our way for the following year.

But to go back to the original point Duckie..it may have been discouraged by the established Church of the country.. and it may not have been a holiday.. but neither it, or its celebration were banned.

check your law fran, in 1647 xmas was banned by a law passed by english puritans.... the law was repealed in 1660, but the ban remained in effect in scotland...... it was not until near 400 years later the ban was actually abolished officially, it was still in effect until it was officially abolished

[CuddlyKate]

Europe couldn't afford healthcare at all if it wasn't for the States. There is no military in Europe to speak of, because they all depend on those evil Americans to protect them. Should they have to provide their own militaries, they wouldn'r be able to afford health care. If the US of A was to disappear today the rest of the world WOULD be at war within 6 months. Universal Health care is the biggest crock of shit since Eve ate the apple. But the whole planet has been conditioned into expecting a handout, so the Govs have to give it to them. I wonder what my grandkids will be expecting from the Gov't?.....

Universal heath care is not a hand out. Universal health care has improved the health of our citizens and brought it to all whether they have the means to pay for it or not, for it is paid for from taxation which every citizen of working age pays whether they are in employment or not. Even children contribute when they spend their pocket money to by little things like sweets or a SIM for their telephone or the telephone itself. Everyone who pays any kind of taxation, whether it is direct or indirect contributes to the well being of our society. I can imagine no better thing for our taxation to be spent on than our health and our well being.

Think of how we pay for our health as an insurance policy for the times we fall ill or have children, for it protects them also. We may need it very little or not at all, but we may require its care for the rest of our lives should we fall chronically ill or develop an incurable condition which requires long term treatment. It allows those of our children who are born with congenital diseases to be treated with the best possible care throughout their lives.

Having a National Health Service paid for out of general taxation, is the state recognising that a healthy population is better than an unhealthy one, and providing a service to ensure that it is so in the interests of state, business and citizen. It is the state recognising that it has an obligation to protect its citizens. We pay for it, but should we fall ill or have children, it is the state ensuring that we are able to be treated properly and have our children as safely as possible without bankrupting ourselves to pay for it. It does not matter whether we are rich or poor. The National Health Service is there for all.

Your grandchildren will expect your government to protect them from an enemy. I can think of no greater enemy than ill health. Ill health claims more lives than ever war has. That is why my country spends much more per capita on health care than it does on defence and provides the infrastructure to bring that care to every citizen as efficently as it is can. Sometimes it fails and it has many faults for it is a system born out a man, but it has saved my partner's life twice and helped me bring my children into the world safely and healthily. For those things alone I have much to be thankful for having the health care system we do.

[tenni]

Ok Pasa Here is a long but partial lesson for you and your people about buying into your myths .... maybe.

"The Soviet Union collapsed because the US outspent it. The Soviets were so afraid that we would have bigger and better weapons that it tried to keep up...and it couldn't. War still brought down the soviet union...just a different kind."

There is a partial truth to your perspective. It is more than weapon spending though. Russia spent inappropriately and yes beyond its means. Why did it not have the means as it has many more natural resources than the US?

No, I can not really determine all of the factors as to the collapse but it went far beyond military spending. The bureaucracy within the Soviet system was extremely corrupt. "Blot" was the real currency in the Soviet system as I understood it. "Blot" was an unoffical system of corruption that eventually broke the production of goods and service imo.

Despite the claim(myths) that there was equality, Blot showed that there was not equality. Simplistically, if I was a manager of a meat store, I would keep the best meat in the back of the store. If you were the manager of a shoe store, you would keep the best shoes in the back room. When I came into your shop, I would approach you or we would be friends already. You would take me to the back room where I would be offered the best meat while the general public would line up just to get a ticket to go to another line to get a piece of much poorer quality meat than I was offered in the backroom. The general public would have no choice in selecting the meat. It would be given to them as is and could not take one piece over another.

Meanwhile I would leave and either pay the same amount or nothing at all. Later, you would come to my shop and get the best shoes while the General Public would only have one choice...black shoes or black shoes. The quality of the shoe sold to the General Public would be very poor. Psychologically, this made manufacturing and production motivation very poor. Production would suffer and there would be fewer and fewer good quality shoes for me to keep in the back room. That is just one example as to why the system failed and you are correct that money was spent inappropriately by the government but it was spent on more than military. The entire infrastructure was mostly facade. You are correct that it was set up to look as if it was competing against the outside world (not just USA). Why? The government was scared shitless that the USA would invade it. YES. They certainly were and had much more realistic reasons for be fearful. You have just had one little 911 on your territory. Read the history of Russia and see why they feared invasion so much more than you feared them( a sickness that you both had due to your myths). Most US people have no understanding how fearful that Russians were of you but they really destroyed their own systems with corruption in the pissing contest. It is just a slight twist on what US people think happened. It had very little to do with you and much more to do with the Russian psyche defeating itself. They still got the first man in space though. They still beat you at some things but eventually they collapsed.

How's capitalism working for the average USJoe? It is about the same or maybe just a bit better than the Communist Russian system. It is still all facade and lies of wealth if you work hard. It is still built on a falsehood of consumerism and credit. Perfect myths like our troops protect us so that we are free. Meanwhile somehow military toilets end up costing $100 000 each (an more than slight exaggeration but get the point?) Haliburton shareholders (cough..Cheney..cough) still got wealthy while the average Joe lost his home and job recently.

[tenni]

"You'd best quit rooting against us and start rooting for us. Because if we collapse economically, so do you and so does most of the world."

Pasa
Again, a partial truth. Why did you let your banking system get so screwed up with deregulation? Canada had no problem with its banking system and no bank bailout was needed. Why? Supposedly, due to its banking regulations. It is not rooting for you and agreeing with your ways that will protect us. We will go in the toilet with you but somehow have come out the ca ca a bit above the froth than you this time. Economically, you are still in the dumpster with tons of debt and no realistic plan to change. We have had our first deficit in 12 years and not so much as due to the recession as an asshole Conservative government that believes in similar fiscal policies as your former government. He spent the surplus way before the crash. Hear that..12 years of financial surplus not deficits. There were no wars either for us. No fear of protection or large military expenditures..(ok a bit too draconian in cheapness than needed..but he he...we had universal healthcare and fiscal surpluses ..lol)(just to piss you off a bit) It was tough to make those cuts to get out of deficits . There was a lot of nashing of teeth...btw. Now, we are going to have to go through that again as our deficit is structural apparently.(government spends more than come in and it is not just the stimulus spending)

The Con government was about to introduce banking deregulations as the crash happened. Therefore, I tell you to stop believing in your myths about freedom and protection while your Emperor is really walking around without clothes. There is no freedom while your country goes down the fiscal toilet and your people suffer. It is not free to have to sell your goods while standing on a street corner(saw that in Russia in 92) You are really a slave to da man of means who controls the government..aka blot (ok that may be too big a segway...but I need a typing break:bigrin:)

I could try to explain the Gaza /Poland compared to US/Russia but you do not really care about the point being made.

Cat et all
We are going to continue. Be more careful what you write next time...lol Some of us like to do this. Some like to have fluff and huggies...pass the beer fantasies. ;)

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Ok Tenni. What was Your contribution to Any of the war efforts? Did you serve in Any branch of the military service? Did you serve your four to six years, working side by side with men and women who Did have a partiotic sense? Did You work your way up the ranks by hard worn and dedication? Did you see any action, did you fight beside anyone and watch them fall beside you?
I think I know the answer since you are a Tad older than me, but I thought I'd ask anyway.
The main meaning of this thread has been so distorted that it angers me that this has grown into a huge pissing match, and the original meaning has been lost.
Waiting.....
Cat

[tenni]

Cat Dumpling (if you do not mind me using that word..luv it)

I've tried to stay connected to your original thoughts but add some realism to your idealism. I strongly support your efforts to show love and caring for the Vets. I really do. Wouldn't it be nice if your country only had or thought that it need a few ten thousand military persons? That it didn't need to put hundreds of military bases all over the world in other sovereign countries? That would reduce the pain and suffering for any citizen who served and became a Vet. The military could do so much good like it does when it goes to Haiti or help your own people during natural disasters. Fear of invasion and a belief structure that you need to protect yourself in order to be free...just seems like slavery to me.

btw There are many many ways to serve a country outside of being in the military. You serve your country by helping the Vets and seem very loved for doing so.

[Long Duck Dong]

Cat Dumpling (if you do not mind me using that word..luv it)

I've tried to stay connected to your original thoughts but add some realism to your idealism. I strongly support your efforts to show love an caring for the Vets. I really do. Wouldn't it be nice if your country only had or thought that it need a few ten thousand military persons? That it didn't need to put hundreds of military bases all over the world in other sovereign countries? That would reduce the pain and suffering for any citizen who served and became a Vet. The military could to so much good like it does when it goes to Haiti or help your own people during natural disasters. Fear of invasion and a belief structure that you need to protect yourself in order to be free...just seems like slavery to me.

if the us had done exactly that tenni, britain, poland france and a few other places would be under german rule.....

the japanese would have domain over a large part of the pacific.....

the middle east would be a force to be reckoned with..... and a number of smaller countries overrun and wiped out......

and mass murder would be the new world history.........

I quess that you are ok with that tenni...... cos that would be the reality..... mass murder on a scale that would shock the world.....

and who would stop it ??? the 2500 troops of canada that fought in ww2 and the rest of canada that argued to stay out of it...?????
canada lost 79 people, while a large group of countries fought and died to stop mass murder in a number of countries.....

this is what I am seeing.... people like you happily saying that the military is wrong, that war is wrong...... and yet the same military stopped wide spread mass murder.... yet 6 million people still died......
if the military has not acted.... it could have been 60 million........

so, who is wrong, the people that did the murdering or the people that moved heaven and earth to stop it ???

[tenni]

Dude
You may not make such a statement with certainty. There are arguments that Germany would have been defeated without the US joining in. It would have just been a longer war. There are positions that if the US had not permitted its capitalists to sell its goods to make money from both sides for several years, Germany would not have been as militarily as strong as it was. Many hidden truths kept from the US people or labelled falsehoods by those in power. Many propaganda statements that you also seem to have accepted just are not really true. Truth seems to be the latest form of propaganda that any government wants its people to believe in. If the Allies had done a better job at making peace with Germany after WW2, there would have been no deaths or a WW2. Same argument. False and fanciful. What ifs style of argument.

[**Peg**]

ok everyone LOL ......enough already......today is July 10th.

[Long Duck Dong]

I am going on the factual battle reports tenni..... not the political reports or the journalism etc.... but the actual battle reports.....

they are things that list the remaining resources available to a country and the defence projections..... not propaganda....

poland and other countries had been invaded and overrun.... thats not propoganda, thats fact......

6 million people died, thats not propoganda, thats fact..... the propaganda is the totals of 18-25 million as there is not that many recorded people around at the time that could have died.... even the germans stated that......

there is a lot of fact to support what I say.... a shit load of facts..... even britain has stated they came so close to losing the war....

your piss poor excuse of propoganda is simply your way of saying that you can not argue or deny the facts....... so you avoid the issue...... and btw, I never used the us battle sheets, I used the British ones......

[tenni]

Peg
We are working towards July 4, 2011 :bigrin: This isn't really about July 4th birth of a nation celebration and never was. The real What are you doing on July 4th thread was about celebrating the birth of a nation and ended quickly. It was started two days before this thread. That thread ended because it was not about war and Vets and military bravado about being free due to being protected.

[tenni]

LDD
Move forward to today and leave WW2 behind as it is all supposition and there are many documents that have come forward. Contextualize your argument with regards to the invasion of Iraq. That is raw and real today. There will be facts yet to be released but what is known is being manipulated by the US government and now silence to hide the US guilty ones responsible for hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi. Promoting myths about freedom and protection do no good nor does it hide the reality.

Since we are really wandering all over with this thread, I will report that I went to an exhibition last night of photographs about the death and destruction in Gaza. The speaker went on about the injustices that Israel has done in the past three years in Gaza. It was pretty horrific but strange how dead children with only their head visible look like dolls. Errors on both side. The use of phosophourous bombs seem real enough from the photos and in person reports. There will be a panel discussion on this conflict in a week or two. I may go with an open mind. Lies and myths on both sides of that situation as well.