So I dunno...

[MarieDelta]

why I am putting this out here. I know that some of you will not understand. But here goes.

I read this interveiw over at bilerico. To me this seems like a pretty clear cut case of discrimination. I am sure someone out there will make an excuse why this should be let go.

I need to talk about this. This is my fear of what would happen should I end up in the emergency room, police station or other "public service" for whatever reason.

ok so here it is...


Interview with Erin Vaught on transphobia at an Indiana hospital
Filed by: Austen Crowder
July 26, 2010 5:00 PMPrint Austen Crowder: What happened?

Erin Vaught: Last week I was in Indy to see my doc and told him I was coughing up a lot of blood, and without divulging what possible conditions could have caused it (privacy reasons) he told me to call him if it gets worse and that I had to figure out how to pay for an MRI and various other tests. On Sunday I coughed almost a cup of blood and decided to go to the E.R. The doc told me if I had to go to the E.R. to go to Muncie rather than New Castle, as they would be more tolerant being a bigger city and a university hospital.

So my partner and I got our son ready and drove to Muncie. We went into the hospital - not too busy considering - and the familiar looks started. I am used to them. So I go to the desk, my partner and son with me and start giving them my info. There were two people at the desk doing my intake; I think one was training. When they got to the surgery question, I told them all my surgries, and she kept pressing, "Are you sure you haven't had any other surgeries?" I said that I didn't.

They completed my regestration and I saw that had put "M" as my gender. I pointed out that my ID says female. She looked annoyed and the lady next to her snickered. She told this jock type triage person to take my vitals; he glared at me for a second and turned his head and said, "Remember payback sucks." I looked at him with a slightly angry look; he said, "Not about you, something from earlier."

So I figured, fair enough. We go back to the room after waiting in the waiting room for- it felt like maybe an hour, I wasn't watching the clock at that point. While we were walking to our room, there were more stares. We were sitting in the room with the door shut, and a nurse came in and told us they will probably want a urine test and she took me to the bathroom. While I was in there, I heard suppressed laughing and someone muttered something about "good thing it's a unisex bathroom." This was through the door - not to my face.

I was still trying to tell myself that it wasn't how I saw it until I got back to the room, and my partner was looking like she wanted to cry and fight someone at the same time. I asked her what was wrong, and she told me that people kept laughing while I was in there, and poking their heads in the room and asking about me. One nurse finally asked, "So is it a he or a she? Or a he-she?"

So my wife said to the nurse, "She is my wife, not an it."

To which the nurse replied with a chuckle, "Well, what do you want me to say? I can't tell. Until I know then he is an it. Now I know, and I know he is a he."

Then I came back to the room to find her almost crying. The nurse who had taken me to the bathroom came back and started asking me a bunch of questions, most I recognized as normal medical questions. Then she said, "How long have you been a transvestite?"

So I explained that I wasn't a transvestite, and for the millionth time proceeded with Transsexuality 101. I guess she had asked my partner the same thing when I was in the bathroom and was told the same thing.

She left the room and we proceeded to wait... and wait... and wait. After waiting about two hours or so she came back and gave my son a coloring book and a couple of crayons.

I read a report saying that the coloring book was used later to say "We were nice!"

Yep. That was their "proof" that no mistreatment took place.

So she came back in not long after bringing the coloring book and asked a series of bizarre questions. "Do you ever feel so angry you might lose control?" "Are you able to buy groceries every week?" "Do you ever feel overwhelmed?" "Have you ever thought about suicide?" We were confused and still are.

I was quite mad, but I kept it in check and said, "When are we going to see a doctor?" She told me that I could not be seen until I had my doc write orders. (For tests, I think she meant.) I said "Why do I need to do that? This is an emergency room."

She said, "Well, we don't know how to go about treating someone with your condition."

I responded, "I don't even know my condition. That's why I'm here!"

She replied, "No. Your other condition. The transvestite thing." I felt angry, and I was fighting my hardest to keep from crying, I was embarrassed and I grabbed my son and we left quickly so they wouldn't see me cry

And that was the whole incident, as well as my words can put it.


More here (http://www.bilerico.com/2010/07/an_interview_with_erin_vaught_about_her_experience .php)

[citystyleguy]

it is one of the uglier sides of humans, that when someone in need of help, is dealt the back of hand, instead of being offered in support.

i cannot speak for other parts of the u.s., nor of rural attitudes or living amongst such blatant hate, but in so far as my area, we have made a great many strides, but far too often find instances of this kind of hatred and callousness.

what i do know, if that kind of behavior were evident, the majority of medical facilities would have come down on staff like a ton of bricks; much of it would have been done in support of acceptance, some of it to protect the institution, while a few would have acted, if only because it was their job to confront this abusive, not to mention, life-threating, actions.

here, there are strong communties in support of acceptance, but there is always those who will push back, but they are thankfully more in the minority, than the dominant group. however, my state is very diverse, and it is frightening to think how many still hold to such ugly dogma.

it can only be hoped that with people such as this individual, who remain strong in the face of adversity, and fight back with what ever means there may be, can wear down these enemies of common sense, decency, and intelligence.

i have seen over time, the realization that such ugly actions are inhumane, so that a great many people can accept diversity, rather than the pablum of cookie-cutter sameness.

it will be interesting to see where this fight will take the many people and groups caught up in this instance of maltreatment and endangerment.

[Kiowa_Pacer]

Oh my gosh. They had better be quite fortunate that I or Ki or worse yet, Cat wasnt there with them. That hospital would Still be reeling and they're ears would still be cuffed.
That kind of behavior is discrimination in its Highest form, and its horrid. Had it occured where I work, head's Would have rolled. There was no excuse what so ever to make a patient feel so degraded, or her partner either.

We had a lady come into the Seattle hospital where I work who had been in a car accident. When the EMT's checked her over they found the name "Norman" on her drivers license but she told them her name was Lacy.
One was uncertain as to how to treat her because she was Trans. The other one stated, "You treat the lady like you would anyone else, so get your a$$ moving"

Some people can be so ignorant.

Kit

[ohbimale]

Reading something like this saddens me, because the ER employees were letting their ignorance and prejudices shine through. Unfortunately this post shows how stupid people can be. I hope and pray you encounter people who are compassionate and understanding in every aspect of your life.

[DuckiesDarling]

I went and read the full story and I found a comment from Erin that explains most questions I might have had.


Deena...My partner and I have been together for over 5 years, before transition. We did conceive a son. I do not pass well, but I live as my true gender (i.e. female) 24/7. I have not had Facial fem surgery as of yet, so they knew my transitional status, as it is obvious. It is also obvious what my gender is as noted by my appearance and my gender marker on my identification. I do not think that genitalia or lack of should play any role. It is not pertinent what I have or don't have between my legs. It is required to live full time as your transitional gender for 1 year prior to having surgery, I hope that this clears up some of your questions.

There was no reason for the degree of unprofessionalism from medical personnel chronicled here. I've got a show I love to watch called Untold Stories of the ER. I remember one episode when a patient came in with severe stomach pains and was pretty much one of those that could go either way in the looks department. She was telling them she was female, they told the doctor they couldn't tell but the person was in a lot of pain. He goes in and all indications to him are she is in labor but he believes she is a male and his nurses are playing a joke on him. He went on to tell the patient he would need to do a pelvic exam, believing that would end the joke and he could get on with his duties. To his surprise she acquiesed and he called a nurse. Performed the pelvic and felt a baby's head. Definitely a female and he screamed for more nurses to get in there to help, get NICU, the whole 9 yards.

Turns out the female had Polycystic Ovary Disease and had no clue she was pregnant. Healthy baby delivered and the doctor learned a valuable lesson that you can't judge a book by it's cover.

Now as to discrimination... that's a hard call. I think there definitely needs to be something learned from this incident. But I am struck by a statement about Erin coughing up blood and not telling her doctor possible causes for privacy reasons?????

It would seem to me that if she had told her doctor her complete medical history then perhaps this whole incident could have been avoided. When things of this nature happen there has to be at least one medical professional you can trust that will help you.

Without giving a full medical history to your doctor you leave them grasping for answers. It's like asking a blind man to sort beads by colors, nothing to base anything on. Just my :2cents:

[Long Duck Dong]

ok I have read and reread this 7 times....

1) I am seeing a person that appears to lack insurance, and is more concerned about privacy, than telling their doctor about anything that may cause a serious issue and coughing up blood is not a mild issue....

2) I am seeing a hospital that is caught between a rock and a hard place.... they are being asked to treat a person that has no insurance and somebody that is dealing with other issues, that may or may not have shared all the info needed to deal with their issue, the coughing up of blood.... and I base that around the fact they didn't do it with their doctor....

3) I see some unprofessional conduct by health professionals.....

so i see responsibility on both sides.... not one

[darkeyes]

Certainly Erin didn't reveal what she felt may be the cause, but while it is undoubtedly helpful in determining what may be wrong, there is no compulsion on her or any other patient to do so.. unwise not to, but its not compulsory.. there is no responsibility on her part whatever for how she was treated at hospital.. that was shameful, humiliating, contemptable and a disgrace to the nursing profession. We don't know why she felt she shouldn't or wouldnt say.. we don't know she wouldn't have told the hospital medical staff once she was there and realised how important it is..

.. and does she say she didnt have insurance? Maybe I missed that but should that matter? Should she whether or not she had insurance have been treated with the utmost courtesy and respect?

.. from what I see there was much thoroughly unprofessional conduct.. ritual humiliation and being treated with contempt is throughly unprofessional conduct by the medical staff involved.. anyone who is not treated with due care and attention and the compassion due them by medical or nursing authorities is by definition discriminated against.. of course there is the little case of proving it and professionals are very good at closing ranks.. there is also the case o n whether it is discrimination in terms of the law.. in terms of good medical practice.. at the very least I would be straight on to the hospital authorities, and if I got no satisfaction their would take it to the BMA and nursing standards authorities, the press and whoever else I felt could help stamp out such appalling behaviour..

[Long Duck Dong]

I have a nursing supervisor friend in the usa that has told me in the past, that insurance is pretty much the only way you get treatment in the usa.... and yes there are free clinics for people with no insurance but feee doesn't mean the best services either.....

erin was told she needs to come up with the money for a mri and other things..... by her doctor....... now unless the us has the worlds most backwards system, you generally do not pay up first and then claim the money back from your insurance company..... its normally the reverse.... you fill out the forms at the hospital, and then treat you..... then the insurance company screws you over for more money by way of premiums

yes I agree that insurance or no insurance, should not change the way you are treated, but in the usa... insurance speaks volumes in a hospital.....and you will be treated better than a person with no insurance


now there is a glaring great issue here..... do you treat the person according to who they say they are or their biological gender....... and I am not saying that to be a smart ass..... just stop and think about it, cos its the issue the hospital faces with trans people.......

as i posted in another thread and it looked like nobody got it....... imagine a person with prostrate issues...... and they are a trans female.... do you treat them as a female while treating them medically as a male.....

[Robinium]

That was a nasty story. Even if she was mistaken for a transvestite, anyone coughing blood in an emergency room needs to be treated correctly, and not laughed at or denied part of the treatment/testing. The story would have been just as awful if it had been a transvestite and not a transsexual, and you see all kinds of people coming to emergency rooms. Apart from that, I agree with the other posters that you better disclose your medical history if there was a particular reason why she was coughing blood.

[DuckiesDarling]

In some cases, darling LDD, that's true. But there are certain insurance companies that do not contract with all hospitals and doctors. In that case they would have to come up with the money to pay for the MRI upfront. Generally, they would recieve 75% of the UCR (Usual and Customary Charge) known as the allowable back from insurance company when they file for compensation but would be responsible for the entire bill from the hospital with no limits on the hospitals side for charging. That would also be affected by whether or not a person had met their deductible. Now most places will offer tests to people who have no insurance coverage for them at a set rate. MRI's generally have a cash rate of around 800, could go as high as 1300 if charges were filed through insurance companies.

This comes from years of working for a medical insurance company and the fact that I don't have insurance myself :tong:

I too felt that it appeared that Erin didn't have insurance but that could be one of many misconceptions in the story posted.

[darkeyes]

Duckie, I know how bad things can be in the US health wise for people who have no insurance.. is that not why Obama did what he did? Thank God we have a publicly funded and provided National Health Service for all its warts.. and we treat people or should treat people according to condition.. gender plays its part but thats not the whole story... but however we treat them it should always be with compassion, care, respect and as much understanding as we can muster.. in health terms historically at least, it seems the almighty dollar has dispensed with treating people with politeness and respect especially when they are telling them to fuck off...

..I go back to this point.. if they treated me like they treated Erin there would be hell to pay... and I have very sharp teeth...:) Thankfully my health service has generally treated me and most people I know with the utmost care and respect.. even allowing for a couple of the battleaxes who woman the office at my GP's surgery have had to be given a lesson in manners more than once..

[Long Duck Dong]

I do agree.... people should be treated with respect.... by the health system.....

but I also accept that its a imperfect system run by imperfect people and yes shit happens...... I have dealt with my fair share of people in the health system that have issues in different areas....... lol.... has a lot to do with the number of times I have been in the hospital for short or long term treatment.....

and its too easy to find fault with everything a person does, and be offended by it...... and thats what I am seeing in the article.....

a nurse saying that they do not know how to treat a person with a trans nature...... can be bad or good, depending on how you read it......
are they saying that they do not know how to deal with or relate to a trans person.... or are they saying that they do not know how to medically treat them
its a statement that can be taken either way...... and based around a net search on the hospital.... its a teaching hospital..... so people there are in training,..... on the job training I would say.... and learning how to deal with people with issues that are not just medical in nature


the remark about the unisex toilet....???? well if I think back to the thread in this site about trans people using gender specific toilets..... and how it can cause issues...... the remark could have meant that hospital staff were referring to how having a unisex toilet was a way that would void that issue..... we have to bear in mind, the remark was overheard and its like listening in to a phone call and only hearing one side.....

and before anybody thinks I am making excuses for the hospital staffs behievour....I am not...... I am looking at the issue from both sides...... using ONE persons statements about what happened.....

there is clear signs of issues such as the he-she remarks....... that do need to be recognized as uncalled for...... and yes the staff should be spoken to about it..... but...lol I am realistic..... it will not stop it happening again.... the staff will just be more careful not to make it so visible

[DuckiesDarling]

Ball Memorial Hospital was founded in 1929 as both a teaching hospital and regional tertiary referral center for Muncie and Delaware County. Today, Ball Memorial Hospital serves as a destination health facility for the people of East Central Indiana, and is home to nearly 400 physicians and more than 45 medical specialties including a Cancer Center, Cardiology program, Total Joint and Spine Center, and specialized services for women and children.

The newly completed Ball Memorial Hospital South Tower and John W. Fisher Heart Center provides a warm, healing environment designed to enhance patient-centered nursing care with the latest technology close at hand. Robotic-assisted surgery, stereotactic radiosurgery, and an electrophysiology lab are just a few examples of the advanced medical technology available for the care of our patients.

Our Medical Education Center is the largest physician teaching program in the state outside of Indianapolis, and fosters an atmosphere of continual learning and advancement for our caregivers. Our nurses, staff and physicians are committed to providing the best patient experience possible through exceptional service and quality care. Ball Memorial Hospital is accredited by the Joint Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations and has been awarded with more than 35 top national and international quality awards.

I believe that this incident proves that professionalism and ethics of dealing with patients should be one of the first things taught. So keep in mind the extremely insensitive remarks may have been made by what were literally staff in training and asking for a superviser might have been the way to go.

[MarieDelta]

She did disclose her medical history, as far as I can tell. The staff were being cute with their remarks about other surgeries.

What she was talking about was not disclosing her medical issues to the reporter. She told the Dr her medical issues...

Hard to tell if she had insurance or not, but if she was in the ER, treatment should have been the priority.

That remarks go on isnt the issue, the issue is the unprofessional way the staff treated her and her wife.

Not only that, but it seems that they were screening her for possible non-consensual admittance to the psych ward.

[MarieDelta]

and its too easy to find fault with everything a person does, and be offended by it...... and thats what I am seeing in the article.....



Its not the asking that was the problem, LDD, it was the downright refusal to respect her identity.

In addition she was ill, and I suspect more than a little bit stressed out. The burden of care is on the medical professionals.

[MarieDelta]

From comments to the article:


Genitals have absolutely nothing to do with breathing or any other aspect of your repiratory system.

"Erin was discussing problems which occurred in a hospital where physiology (including genitals) is very relevant."

Bullshit. And genitals have nothing to do with gender.

"Knowing the precise physiology of a person often =is= important. I'm not a doctor, so I reserve the right to be wrong on this point,... "

Well, good for you.

" ...but as I read the interview, a DVT brought on by estrogen usage might be one explanation."

One does not need male genitalia to take estrogen.

"That estrogen dosage is higher pre-operative than post-operative makes genitals even more relevant."

First, when you are seeing a doctor or are in an ER, you are asked what medications you are taking, and at what dose. Not what sort of genitals you have. Having estrogen on the meds list, regardless of dosage, would alert them to investigate the possibility of a blood clot, if the symptoms suggested one. Chances are they'd want to do a chest x-ray either way.

Second, the commenters on this blog aren't her doctors and aren't treating her; and have no need of the information about Erin's genitals that was asked here. Period.

"Genitals don't matter, except when they do."

Genitals matter if you are having sex, urinating, giving birth, or if you have physical problems with them. Not when you're coughing.

"And this is one of the instances where, as I explained above, they very likely do."

You have failed to even address the issue of why someone on this blog would need to know what sort of genitals Erin has.

"Just to recap -- not a medical situation? Genitals don't matter. A medical situation? Genitals do matter because of their relationship to physiology and ongoing medical treatments and their potential complications."

Wrong. Unless the medical problem is uro-genital, fertility, a sexually transmitted infection, or a testicular growth of some sort, your genitals don't effect treating other medical problems.

If you break your arm, should you be asked to drop trou? Are they going to set it differently if you're packing heat between your legs? If you have a sinus infection, should someone grope you? Do only people with God-made vaginas get antibiotics for it?

Get a clue.

[tenni]

I mean no disrespect with the following post.

I've thought about this situation. In fact, I've lived maltreatment in an Emergency room. I don't think that it is specific to transgendered people though since I've experienced similar mistreatment but not the same at all.

There are many people who enter an emergency room situation that do not "fit" the norm. This includes not just those who physically do not conform to mainstream standards. Ignorance was shown and bigotry in this reported transwoman situation. I wonder if the word "transvestite" was used interchangeably with "transexual" in their mind? The person seemed ignorant in the true meaning of the word. It is ignorance and a lack of exposure, experience and an understanding of tolerance.

An emergency room situation is not the same as entering a specialist doctor's office. In my situation, my symptoms were very atypical for what was going on with me. I reported what had happened. A brief examination was done by probably a resident doctor or maybe even a specialist in Emergency treatment. Again, I won't go into details but there was the suspicion that I was faking it it seems. I was released from the hospital into my family care. I was brought back to a different hospital emergency room within a few hours when it became worse. I was left there alone by a family member due to the lateness and age of my family member. She thought that I'd be ok in the care of the hospital and there was nothing that she could do. She said that she would come back after she got a bit of sleep. At around 3 am in the morning without shoes or a shirt I was released on my own in a drugged state. I could not walk(very well) due to my injury. I fell down after someone else in the emergency room who was holding my arm was told to let me go. I stumbled backwards, fell down and hit my head. I was told to get up. I could not and said so. I was then told that I could stay. I seem to have blanked out at that point until I woke up with a social worker asking me questions....since I was abandoned in their opinion. My family member came back for me but I had been moved to another hospital for further examination.

It was days before I could recall that incident. Even after extensive testing, it has been nearly impossible to find what was actually wrong. When I reported this to a nuerosurgeon, he said that unless you fit the exact traditional symptom , the emergency staff really have a hard time and dismiss you. He had seen it time and time again. I was informed that I could have called for a review of the doctor on call etc. Getting better was a higher priority although I still can wonder why?

A transwoman is not a normative experience for an emergency staff situation. Why should she be treated any better than those others who do not fit the norm? Sad but a truth. There is however no excuse for rudeness and that is what they showed her. Disgusting. I wish that didn't happen to her. I don't know how to change these types of things. I hope that she is well again.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

It would seem to me that if she had told her doctor her complete medical history then perhaps this whole incident could have been avoided. When things of this nature happen there has to be at least one medical professional you can trust that will help you.

Naw. It wouldnt've mattered, Honey. People are going to have this pre-conseived notion already set in their dopey little heads about how folks are supposta be. All they saw was somone to make fun of and ridicule. All they saw was they didnt have the 'proper' insurance that makes most hospital people hop around like fleas. (No offence to my Kit) It isnt your fault that they all see thru dollar sign glasses. Treating Anyone like is just disgusting, but I understand her feelings. I too have had to go thru that kind of bullshit and discrimination. I didnt endure it long, though. Had I heard anything like what she put up with, t'would not have been perdy. People are basiclly assholes when it comes to someone who isnt in their 'calibre' or who are the littlest bit different than what society sees as "Normal" I know this for a fact..I see it everyday.:disgust:
If girlfriend was smart, she'd be getting a good attorney and sueing the pants off of that hospital. Some media coverage would surely set them straight as well. She and her partner may not get anywhere, but it would make the Admin staff think about tightening the reins on talking to personell about how to treat patients of all kinds.
Mean ole Cat

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Ok, hell must be having a bad day with their air conditioning units, for I again agree with what Tenni is saying. People are people and Should be treated with respect and cared for no matter What their condition when coming in to the hospital. I've even seen the homeless and transiates(sp) treated like they were some kind of sub-spiecies. It Shouldnt fukn Matter. People are people and the symptoms and problems should be the main concern, first, foremost, and paramount!!! That lady was coughing up blood. She should have been examined Immediately, regardless of if she Looked like a female or Not. It should not have mattered....but it did. People's stupidity had to get in damn way, and she wound up leaving. It never did say what her prognosis was, or what happened to her afterwards, but I hope she's ok.
I'm stopping now cuz I'm gettin pissed...lol
And, I hope me agreeing with Tenni wasnt too traumatic on him...*Snicker*
Cat

[tenni]

ok...Cat...I'll survive...;)

Just another point as to what happened to me. There were two nurses who were angels to me. One placed me on my side and that reduced the pressure to stop some of my symptoms. Another nurse went with me in a taxi to another hospital. She helped me in the wheelchair when I was falling out of it and was very respectful. Strangely, I was wheeled by the first resident who decided that I was faking the next day. He said hello. I didn't respond not just because of his action but I was too busy trying not to fall out of the wheelchair.

It is really hard to decide not to take legal action as much as take legal action. Each person has to decide if the stress and nonsense is worth it. I checked with an advocacy group and found that I was better off than others with similar injuries. They told me horror stories in the Emergency were not just restricted to me. I don't think anyone who is working in Emergency is intending to be rude though. Its a tough job. I know a specialist Emergency triage doctor and she works far less than most doctors due to the stress (and good pay). It is very hard. Still no excuse for these Emerge staff rudeness.

[MarieDelta]

It would seem to me that if she had told her doctor her complete medical history then perhaps this whole incident could have been avoided. When things of this nature happen there has to be at least one medical professional you can trust that will help you.

Naw. It wouldnt've mattered, Honey. People are going to have this pre-conseived notion already set in their dopey little heads about how folks are supposta be. All they saw was somone to make fun of and ridicule. All they saw was they didnt have the 'proper' insurance that makes most hospital people hop around like fleas. (No offence to my Kit) It isnt your fault that they all see thru dollar sign glasses. Treating Anyone like is just disgusting, but I understand her feelings. I too have had to go thru that kind of bullshit and discrimination. I didnt endure it long, though. Had I heard anything like what she put up with, t'would not have been perdy. People are basiclly assholes when it comes to someone who isnt in their 'calibre' or who are the littlest bit different than what society sees as "Normal" I know this for a fact..I see it everyday.:disgust:
If girlfriend was smart, she'd be getting a good attorney and sueing the pants off of that hospital. Some media coverage would surely set them straight as well. She and her partner may not get anywhere, but it would make the Admin staff think about tightening the reins on talking to personell about how to treat patients of all kinds.
Mean ole Cat

I think she is in the process of both of those. This interview with Bilerico was just another way to get her story out there.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Why are people under the assumption that just because the person is a trans person that passes badly that they deserve special treatment?


Thats not the total jest of this case. The matter in question was the way they were Treated. She wasnt asking or Expecting any kind of special treatment, she was expecting to be treated like a human being and given the same rights and respect as anyone else. How would You like to be snickered at and made fun of simply because it said Gay or Bisexual on your paperwork? And most places anymore Do ask these questions when being admitted to a hospital, or when going thru an ER. How would You feel if your spouse/loved one's were laughed at and had remarks made over? And you know damn well that there were some remarks made that they hadnt even heard. It didnt matter that shes a Trans person that doesnt pass well, the point of this is she should have been treated with dignity and respect the same as Any Other Person coming into an ER for help, plain and simple. She wasnt asking for preferential care, she was asking for help for what coulda been a life threatening situation, and what she got was scorn and assholism.
Cat

[Long Duck Dong]

I read back to the copied and pasted comments that rory written ( posted by marie in this site )

ok.... rory is a idiot, and using the same tired old argument that genitalia doesn't matter during a examination by way of a broken arm or sinus issues.... things that are not connected to the genitalia.... as a way of saying that the genitalia have no bearing in a medical situation......
actually there have been cases of people wanking and breaking bones.... lol

but seriously

the cough test, ( cupping the genitals and getting the person to cough ) can reveal a issue that is not visible to the eye....and may indicate issues that need to be checked.... IE hernia etc etc etc

there is a number of genitalia related issues that can lead to bleeding from other parts of the body.... a friend of mine had treatment for testis cancer and it was found that it was also in his lungs....but it was found due to a full body exam when they checked his testicles, if the genitalia has not been checked.... they may have never found the lung cancer until it was more advanced.......

so a visual examination can eliminate the need for more expensive and unneeded tests, or confirm the need for them
I have a full body exam every two years.... I have to, I am intersex and so I need to take extra precautions with my health

also hatred of ones genitalia can lead to a depressive state of mind in people, something that the staff addressed with the psych evaluation....
marie you yourself even posted in this site that you would rather cut off your genitalia with a blunt spoon than die with it attached.... to a medical assessor that can be a sign of possible willingness to self harm...... add to that, your own admittance to dealing with depression...... and a trans persons predisposition and the high rate of suicide amongst trans... and that would make the medicals questions, very valid indeed..... they have to do a risk assessment evaluation...

so genitalia can make a big difference in a medical situation.... and not just to do with body health, but also mental and emotional health and well being....

[MarieDelta]

I read back to the copied and pasted comments that rory written ( posted by marie in this site )

ok.... rory is a idiot, and using the same tired old argument that genitalia doesn't matter during a examination by way of a broken arm or sinus issues.... things that are not connected to the genitalia.... as a way of saying that the genitalia have no bearing in a medical situation......
actually there have been cases of people wanking and breaking bones.... lol

but seriously

the cough test, ( cupping the genitals and getting the person to cough ) can reveal a issue that is not visible to the eye....and may indicate issues that need to be checked.... IE hernia etc etc etc

there is a number of genitalia related issues that can lead to bleeding from other parts of the body.... a friend of mine had treatment for testis cancer and it was found that it was also in his lungs....but it was found due to a full body exam when they checked his testicles, if the genitalia has not been checked.... they may have never found the lung cancer until it was more advanced.......

so a visual examination can eliminate the need for more expensive and unneeded tests, or confirm the need for them
I have a full body exam every two years.... I have to, I am intersex and so I need to take extra precautions with my health

also hatred of ones genitalia can lead to a depressive state of mind in people, something that the staff addressed with the psych evaluation....
marie you yourself even posted in this site that you would rather cut off your genitalia with a blunt spoon than die with it attached.... to a medical assessor that can be a sign of possible willingness to self harm...... add to that, your own admittance to dealing with depression...... and a trans persons predisposition and the high rate of suicide amongst trans... and that would make the medicals questions, very valid indeed..... they have to do a risk assessment evaluation...

so genitalia can make a big difference in a medical situation.... and not just to do with body health, but also mental and emotional health and well being....

I'm sorry LDD, but the genetalia have nothing whatsoever to do with this issue. Further there was no apparent need to grill her about her mental state. She was in critical need of other care and not there to be treated for GID.

When someone shows up that is coughing up blood , your first concern should not be that they might self harm. The first concern is to figure out why they are coughing up blood and resolve the immediate issue. These other issues are besides the point.

Lastly there was no need to continue to disrespect her gender identity or to call her an "it" to her wife. these things are common courtesy. Just because someone doesnt pass does not give people the right to be assholes.

Now LDD, I know you love authoritarian figures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_personality), but can you please just set that aside and look at this case objectively?

Note:

She wasnt there for treatment of depresion
She wasnt there for treatment of anything related to GID
She was in need of CRITICAL care
None of the nurse or staff she saw were even vaguely qualified to diagnose a patient with GID or depresion
The treatment she recieved was substandard, did not follow any recognized standars of care, and disrespectful and would have been regardless of any other issue.


Now you sit there and tell me that its ok, she was trans therefore she got what she deserved? is that what I am hearing from you? She isnt "normal" and therefore she should be treated like shit? Sounds like the same ol song 23rd verse...

The only thing missing is for you to tell us how in NZ you have rights. Which I suspect should pop up anytime now.

Somehow I knew posting this would be a bad idea...

I was trying to discuss something important to me, all you've done is confirm to me at least, if I ever need help, to not call you as you would never have my back. You would always make some excuse why the other guys were in the right.

[RockGardener]

I have kept out of this so far, but one of these days I will be the wife in the ER. Everything that I have seen here shows a gross lack of respect for the patient and her family.

Rock

[MarieDelta]

Some other things that I fear with regards to medical care:

Dying like Tyra Hunter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyra_Hunter) or Robert Eads (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Eads).

Tyra Hunter was on her way to work in Washington, DC, when the car she was riding in was involved in an accident. She was refused timely treatment by DC Fire Department EMT Adrian Williams and later at DC General Hospital that would have saved her life.

Worse, while Williams was not treating Tyra, he took the time to disrespectfully mock her. And what was his punishment? A promotion by the DCFD.

In 1996, after a severe bout of abdominal pain and vaginal bleeding, Eads sought emergency medical treatment, and received a diagnosis of ovarian cancer. However, more than two dozen doctors subsequently refused to treat Eads on the grounds that taking him on as a patient might harm their practice.

It was not until 1997 that he was finally accepted for treatment by the Medical College of Georgia hospital, where he underwent surgical, medical, and radiation therapy over the next year. At the time Southern Comfort was filmed in 1998, his cancer had metastasized to his uterus, cervix, and other abdominal organs, and his prognosis was poor. Despite aggressive treatment, Eads died at home in 1999 at the age of 53.

[MarieDelta]

this was posted from Erin herself:


I just want to Clarify, That the issue wasn't what I have between my legs. They did not ask about it, and if I had ever got the opportunity to see a doctor, I would have been completely forthright about my physical anatomy. I do not know what "trans weasel lingo" is nor do I know anyone who uses the terms I have seen on this thread. I do know that we as trans people make it a point to let people know that Gender is not what is between your legs. That is not "trans weasel lingo", it is a fact.. If I had been seen by a doctor, I would have volunteered the information. I was not. I was merely ridiculed by nurses who never asked i a medical way what is happening between my legs, or with my gender, rather, they just started in will the hate talk and name calling. I guess what I am trying to say with this comment is that there is a lot of divisiveness in our community (LGBTQI) when what we need is solidarity. We should not be bickering amongst each other, we should be using that energy to dispel myth, fight hate and intolerance, and spread awareness and love. We need to be an example to the rest of the world. If we fight amongst each other over trivialities, than how can we hope potential supporters to take us seriously?

[Long Duck Dong]

I'm sorry LDD, but the genetalia have nothing whatsoever to do with this issue. Further there was no apparent need to grill her about her mental state. She was in critical need of other care and not there to be treated for GID.

When someone shows up that is coughing up blood , your first concern should not be that they might self harm. The first concern is to figure out why they are coughing up blood and resolve the immediate issue. These other issues are besides the point.

Lastly there was no need to continue to disrespect her gender identity or to call her an "it" to her wife. these things are common courtesy. Just because someone doesnt pass does not give people the right to be assholes.

Now LDD, I know you love authoritarian figures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_personality), but can you please just set that aside and look at this case objectively?

Note:

She wasnt there for treatment of depresion
She wasnt there for treatment of anything related to GID
She was in need of CRITICAL care
None of the nurse or staff she saw were even vaguely qualified to diagnose a patient with GID or depresion
The treatment she recieved was substandard, did not follow any recognized standars of care, and disrespectful and would have been regardless of any other issue.


Now you sit there and tell me that its ok, she was trans therefore she got what she deserved? is that what I am hearing from you? She isnt "normal" and therefore she should be treated like shit? Sounds like the same ol song 23rd verse...

The only thing missing is for you to tell us how in NZ you have rights. Which I suspect should pop up anytime now.

Somehow I knew posting this would be a bad idea...

I was trying to discuss something important to me, all you've done is confirm to me at least, if I ever need help, to not call you as you would never have my back. You would always make some excuse why the other guys were in the right.

if you want to go thru my site history.... you will see that my 2nd thread in the site was about trans people in the site...... and that is one of a few threads...... including this one trans people (http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2490)
so my history of trans support and understanding in the site extends from the time I joined the site
in fact you posted in that thread...... now do not tell me I am wrong or not understanding of trans issues and what they face


I have already posted that I have issues with the attitude of the hospital staff.......as it was clearly out of line

but I also have experience with mental illness and the way you get treated by hospital staff and evaluations...... I also have spent a few years in hospital so I am very familiar with the way hospital staff can be like.... the good, the bad and the ugly.... and nobody is perfect.....

I also have the experience of dealing with hospitals when dealing with aids cases, my own sister and her partner died from aids.....so I know about the way that people can be discriminated against....

I am also intersex, so I have 40 years of dealing with people that really have no idea about dealing with people that are unique or people that deal with gender and genitalia related issues

so I am pretty sure that when I look at a issue with hospitals and staff and attitudes, that I have a pretty fuckin good understanding of how there are good, bad and asshole staff in hospitals......

and I have a shit load of experience dealing with trans people on a number of levels.....
but yet again.... we have the * omg trans are victims * etc, stance in the forums......and god help anybody that doesn't do the * poor trans * stance every time something is posted.....

now yes there is a issue with the staff at the hospital, but not all of it is as wrong as its made out to be...... there can be valid reasons why the nurse stated that they were not able to deal with a trans person......
things like dealing with a female patient.... yet in surgery and a stay in hospital is required.... then you have to insert a male catheter on a patient labelled as a female..... it can cause issues and headaches for staff.....

its very possible that the remark about not knowing how to deal with a trans person, was in fact a genuine statement that the staff were not sure what to do or say...... as clearly... they are not doing with a straight forward case in respects to gender.... and as we already know... unless you handle trans with kid bloody gloves... its gonna be called discrimination.....
and with the issue of malpractice suits and stuff hanging over hospitals heads constantly,..... yes I would distance myself as well, until I knew exactly what I was dealing with and what procedures to take.....

there are two issues with erin.... one is the reaction and attitude of the hospital staff..... and the other is the issue with treating a person with the care and respect they deserve, but a person that is in transition.... you have to address them and treat them as a female, while treating them medically as a male,...... what a fuckin mindfield for the staff to deal with........

newsflash.... trans are people too... and i know from experience that they are no angels themselves...and I have see a number of issues inflamed by the behievour of trans people, whom then play the victims.....
a example would be your statements about how lieing to partners about potential issues that could cost a marriage / relationship and end up in court.... is acceptable behievour for a trans people.....

so.... with trans you are dealing with people with potental mental issues ( as you have posted in the past ) they are potentially 2 people ( a female in a male body, but identified as a female, until they are fully transitioned ) and I happen to remember you going after people in this site for being accepting of people that ID as she males, people that do not wish to fully transition,..... so do not come after me and tell me that I am always taking the other persons side..... when you have openly posted in this very site, going after people for showing a interest in trans people of different natures.......

you know full well I am the worst person to ask anything in this site, as I will take both sides equally and give both sides a fair shake.... and I know very well... doing that pisses people right off......

you don't like what I say..... use the ignore button.... but I am not going to take one side or the other when there is 2 sides to every story

[MarieDelta]

Again as I stated, the staff were completely in the wrong. As Erin has said she was completly up front with them about her medical history.

I have also had a history of dealing with hospitals. My uncle was a paraplegic, with several medical isues. He dealt with all kinds of prejudice as well, the fact that there is prejudice doesnt excuse it. Ignorance doesnt excuse mean spiritedness. Which there was clearly in this case.

There are ways to deal with a person, and do it correctly that dont cause offense. Its called common courtsey. It doesnt have to be perfect , but an attempt should be made. Even if you arent completely sure how to deal with a person, if you do it with kindness, things can be ok.

I dont think there was even an attempt in this case. The staff started out mean and stayed that way.

But of course to you we are all whiny bitches, and should just shut up and take it. Nothing should ever be said or done to prevent discrimination.

Meanwhile you are busy looking at "both sides." Stating how obviously trans women are whiney and shouldnt be listened to. Especially when we are "no angels."

RE: "She males" I dont care what people ID as, they can Id as men from mars. However the term itself is offensive, similiar to calling a guy a prick or a woman a whore. Personaly I've never met anyone with that identity. I dont care what people like, whatever they like god bless'em. If people like pre-op trans folk or non-op trans folk thats a good thing. Everyone needs someone to love them. I think you have clearly mis-understood my point here, as well. Simiarly I dont care what others do with their bodies, that wasnt my point. Again my issue was with the term "she-males." Whis is a slur against transfolk of all types.

Lastly the isues with not being "completely honest" with your partner. Its my firm belief that complete honesty is not a requirement. There are some things that are irrelevant. you dont like it , that is fine, no one said you have to like it.

The problem isnt seeing both sides, its not being able to say "Hey that was wrong, and we need to do something about it."

Because sometimes, people need to be told that what they have done is wrong.

[Long Duck Dong]

Again as I stated, the staff were completely in the wrong. As Erin has said she was completly up front with them about her medical history.

I have also had a history of dealing with hospitals. My uncle was a paraplegic, with several medical isues. He dealt with all kinds of prejudice as well, the fact that there is prejudice doesnt excuse it. Ignorance doesnt excuse mean spiritedness. Which there was clearly in this case.

There are ways to deal with a person, and do it correctly that dont cause offense. Its called common courtsey. It doesnt have to be perfect , but an attempt should be made. Even if you arent completely sure how to deal with a person, if you do it with kindness, things can be ok.

I dont think there was even an attempt in this case. The staff started out mean and stayed that way.

But of course to you we are all whiny bitches, and should just shut up and take it. Nothing should ever be said or done to prevent discrimination.

Meanwhile you are busy looking at "both sides." Stating how obviously trans women are whiney and shouldnt be listened to. Especially when we are "no angels."

RE: "She males" I dont care what people ID as, they can Id as men from mars. However the term itself is offensive, similiar to calling a guy a prick or a woman a whore. Personaly I've never met anyone with that identity. I dont care what people like, whatever they like god bless'em. If people like pre-op trans folk or non-op trans folk thats a good thing. Everyone needs someone to love them. I think you have clearly mis-understood my point here, as well. Simiarly I dont care what others do with their bodies, that wasnt my point. Again my issue was with the term "she-males." Whis is a slur against transfolk of all types.

Lastly the isues with not being "completely honest" with your partner. Its my firm belief that complete honesty is not a requirement. There are some things that are irrelevant. you dont like it , that is fine, no one said you have to like it.

The problem isnt seeing both sides, its not being able to say "Hey that was wrong, and we need to do something about it."

Because sometimes, people need to be told that what they have done is wrong.

if I wanted to call people whiny bitches, I would........

I just do not cry discrimination and bi / gay / les / trans phobia everytime something happens and when its cried, i look at things with a open mind

I have posted in the past, about my time as a barman / bouncer and how many times I had to deal with issues cos of *gay bashing * when in fact a lot of the time it was peoples mouths that started the issues.... people were not getting hit cos they were lgbt, they were getting hit for being smart mouthed assholes

now as I have stated..... there could be valid reasons for some of what happened in the hospital.... like I said, we have one side of things, by a disgruntled person......not all the facts.....

that doesn't excuse or justify bad manners or lack of courtesy by the hospital staff....... something that is not acceptable to ANY PERSON of ANY SEXUALITY!!!!!!!
but nor does it mean that all of what happened in the hospital was discrimination or anti trans behievour..... like I said, we only have erins side of things, and part of what happened was a over heard conversation... and erins interpretation of what people were saying.......

a bit like the same way you are *seeing things * that I am not saying.... IE the whiny bitch remark.... and * trans should not be listened to *
funny enuf, i never said that, but you clearly appear to have read it.... unless you are twisting words to create a anti trans image to justify a * victim * syndrome....

now its a training hospital where people are trained in medical care etc etc so yes, a complaint should go to the hospital about the conduct and a investigation should take place and reprimands and further training done..... to avoid another repeat of the issue......

I see nothing wrong with that...... I think thats a good idea actually...... and that is why I have not started threads about bad treatment I have had at times..... I just look at the issue, and decide if I need to file a complaint with the head office of the outfit......

I do not suffer from * victim syndrome *, I put on my big girl panties and move on..... and I have many reasons to feel like a victim.....

[rissababynta]

LDD...maybe life would be easier for you at bi.com if you just stopped looking at all sides of everything. I mean...who's side are you on anyway damn it. You're either with us...or against us! RAWR! :rolleyes:

:tongue: :bigrin: ;)

[MarieDelta]

if I wanted to call people whiny bitches, I would........

I just do not cry discrimination and bi / gay / les / trans phobia everytime something happens and when its cried, i look at things with a open mind

I have posted in the past, about my time as a barman / bouncer and how many times I had to deal with issues cos of *gay bashing * when in fact a lot of the time it was peoples mouths that started the issues.... people were not getting hit cos they were lgbt, they were getting hit for being smart mouthed assholes

now as I have stated..... there could be valid reasons for some of what happened in the hospital.... like I said, we have one side of things, by a disgruntled person......not all the facts.....

that doesn't excuse or justify bad manners or lack of courtesy by the hospital staff....... something that is not acceptable to ANY PERSON of ANY SEXUALITY!!!!!!!
but nor does it mean that all of what happened in the hospital was discrimination or anti trans behievour..... like I said, we only have erins side of things, and part of what happened was a over heard conversation... and erins interpretation of what people were saying.......

a bit like the same way you are *seeing things * that I am not saying.... IE the whiny bitch remark.... and * trans should not be listened to *
funny enuf, i never said that, but you clearly appear to have read it.... unless you are twisting words to create a anti trans image to justify a * victim * syndrome....

now its a training hospital where people are trained in medical care etc etc so yes, a complaint should go to the hospital about the conduct and a investigation should take place and reprimands and further training done..... to avoid another repeat of the issue......

I see nothing wrong with that...... I think thats a good idea actually...... and that is why I have not started threads about bad treatment I have had at times..... I just look at the issue, and decide if I need to file a complaint with the head office of the outfit......

I do not suffer from * victim syndrome *, I put on my big girl panties and move on..... and I have many reasons to feel like a victim.....

You did, and you are again, in this post telling us, in essence, to shut up. We arent supposed to discuss discrimination? Or talk about things that have happened? How else are we suppose to change things, if we dont discuss them?

Now if you look at the article you'll see where Erin was contacted by a representitive from the hospitals nursing staff, and she recieved no apology or redress. that would indicate , to me, that she has already contacted "the head office."


AC: Has the hospital been in contact with you since the whole incident happened?

EV: Once. The guy on the phone said he represented the nurses of Ball Memorial Hospital, and he said he wanted to know why I left. So I went off, and I told him why I left, and he pressed me for details. After a while, he said, "I am so sorry that out of the millions of people we have treated of every race, creed, and color, that you were the one person that experienced discrimination," in a really condescending tone.

I told him I would answer no more of his questions and my lawyers would be in touch. It took me quite a while to realize that when he said he "represented" the nurses, that he was probably a lawyer. (I cannot verify that, though. He never called again.)



I start talking about my fears and what I get from you is dismissive at best. Because it seems to me what you are saying is "it cant be as bad as she has reported" to "she obviously misunderstood what was said" or perhaps "she is obviously lying."

Would you rather sit around and discuss the best BJ technique? Perhaps the best outlet for bi porn?

You said yourself if you dont like what I have to say there is the ignore button. Feel free to ignore any and all postings from me.

[darkeyes]

now its a training hospital where people are trained in medical care etc etc so yes, a complaint should go to the hospital about the conduct and a investigation should take place and reprimands and further training done..... to avoid another repeat of the issue......

......

I do not suffer from * victim syndrome *, I put on my big girl panties and move on..... and I have many reasons to feel like a victim.....

A training hospital..where people train indeed.. but a training hospital is predominantly full of trained nurses and staff.. it could not operate properly otherwise.. so there should always be enough trained staff to consult with.. reading the article I am not sure that much of it was the fault of untrained staff.. either administration (of which therewould be even fewer in training) or nursing..

..and I do not suffer victim syndrome either.. I just dont take crap being heaped upon my head for any reason whatsoever.. so I do what I can in part to make sure no one else is given the same crap, and also to buck up the ideas of those who heaped the crap in the first place and make sure whatever institution it is, or shop or anything else does what it should as efficiently and effectively as possible.. that is.. do its job properly and serve those it exists to serve as it should.. I dont walk away.. and neither should anyone else or things will just continue in the same vein..

[Long Duck Dong]

I never told you to shut up......... if I wanted to say that, I would have said it in plain english but I do not have that right......

yes erin was contacted by a person from the hospital, she believes..... so it would appear the matter is being addressed...... which is the correct way of handling things....... I am not arguing that at all.... in fact I stated its the best way to handle it..... go to the head office and lay a complaint....
I am not sure what posting all over the net, proves.... tho it can be argued that it highlights the fact that there is still discrimination in the world..... but... shrugs... where are the counter balance of stories of trans that have not being discriminated against, that show the move against discrimination is working.... why are you not posting them ????
I like to see both sides of things, not just one

now I was not being dismissive.... I just was not taking everything as a potshot at trans.... some of it may not be a potshot at trans, but its being added in for effect...... to enhance a case of bad conduct and courtesy by hospital staff......
the facts are, the direct face to face treatment of erin was bad and mishandled.... the mishandled of her gender identity was bad......etc

what was added in for effect, is the overhead remark about a unisex toilet that could have been taken out of context...
the exact reason why erin was not treated on the grounds of her gender identity.....
why they proceeded to do a psych evaluation at a teaching hospital ( I have my suspicions as to why )

they are unproven and out of context aspects to what happened..... but used to enhance a bad situation, to make it look worse.... and by doing that, the staff at the hospital all look bad now.... cos nobody knows who said what and who did what.... so there may be some bloody good nurses with a shitty rep now that never did anything to deserve it.... there only fault was working at a training hospital

its in the same way that I question why trans are getting killed at such a high rate..... as there is more to it than they are trans..... but I have noticed that I should not do that either, i am expected to say omg poor trans..... and yes i do say, for fucks sake.....
but I also question why it is happening......
and honestly..... if I was to use your statements as a indicator ( I am refering to the no need to be honest in relationships, remarks ).... I would hazard a quess as to why some of them have died...... now it doesn't make it right or acceptable...... but it does make it avoidable.....
but it makes trans people as a whole, look like they are a pack of liars that can not respect a partner and open their hearts and minds and trust in that partner.....


I hope the full story and the truth comes out.... not just erins side, but the full truth and what happened at the hospital..... so people know that the matter was fairly and clearly dealt with..... and the other non involved staff are cleared of any wrong doing in this case

[MarieDelta]

if I wanted to call people whiny bitches, I would........

I just do not cry discrimination and bi / gay / les / trans phobia everytime something happens and when its cried, i look at things with a open mind

I have posted in the past, about my time as a barman / bouncer and how many times I had to deal with issues cos of *gay bashing * when in fact a lot of the time it was peoples mouths that started the issues.... people were not getting hit cos they were lgbt, they were getting hit for being smart mouthed assholes

now as I have stated..... there could be valid reasons for some of what happened in the hospital.... like I said, we have one side of things, by a disgruntled person......not all the facts.....

that doesn't excuse or justify bad manners or lack of courtesy by the hospital staff....... something that is not acceptable to ANY PERSON of ANY SEXUALITY!!!!!!!
but nor does it mean that all of what happened in the hospital was discrimination or anti trans behievour..... like I said, we only have erins side of things, and part of what happened was a over heard conversation... and erins interpretation of what people were saying.......

a bit like the same way you are *seeing things * that I am not saying.... IE the whiny bitch remark.... and * trans should not be listened to *
funny enuf, i never said that, but you clearly appear to have read it.... unless you are twisting words to create a anti trans image to justify a * victim * syndrome....

now its a training hospital where people are trained in medical care etc etc so yes, a complaint should go to the hospital about the conduct and a investigation should take place and reprimands and further training done..... to avoid another repeat of the issue......

I see nothing wrong with that...... I think thats a good idea actually...... and that is why I have not started threads about bad treatment I have had at times..... I just look at the issue, and decide if I need to file a complaint with the head office of the outfit......

I do not suffer from * victim syndrome *, I put on my big girl panties and move on..... and I have many reasons to feel like a victim.....

Furthermore, this isnt that glbt bar & you arent a bouncer here. This situation isnt one of dealing with drunk folks. It has nothing to do with people being smart asses. Erin was in critical need of care. I'm sure the last thing on her mind was how to make things difficult.

RE: Getting "all the facts" that is very unlikely, I am sure as the hospital has already lawyered up, as well as the staff involved. Any lawyer worth his salt would make sure none of the staff opened their mouths in front of any press.

[rissababynta]

OH MY GOD LDD...You just totally opened up another door I hope you realize :tong: Trans people are getting themselves killed? For shame!

[Long Duck Dong]

Furthermore, this isnt that glbt bar & you arent a bouncer here. This situation isnt one of dealing with drunk folks. It has nothing to do with people being smart asses. Erin was in critical need of care. I'm sure the last thing on her mind was how to make things difficult.

RE: Getting "all the facts" that is very unlikely, I am sure as the hospital has already lawyered up, as well as the staff involved. Any lawyer worth his salt would make sure none of the staff opened their mouths in front of any press.

most of the lgbt were actually well behaved people and very respectful... there was the odd few that fucked it up for everybody and made problems.....

btw I am not saying that erin was a smart ass..... I was saying how I know from past experience how discrimination and lgbt phobia are thrown around far too bloody much..... and while there is aspects of bad conduct by hospital staff.... there is nothing to support any theory that erin is the only person treated badly by that hospital.... so saying its discrimination against trans is a broad statement.....

its simply bad manner and lack of courtesy to a patient ...... btw if erin was in critical need of attention, she should have rang a bloody ambulance.....
if she was well enuf to drive to the hospital and leave again ...then I do not rate her as critical......

however coughing up blood is a serious issue.... I have grave concerns about a doctor that would tell a person to wait and see what happens..... and meanwhile, go find some money for a mri and other tests......
so why is the doctor not getting a earfull in a internet forum....... surely that is bad treatment of a trans person too

[MarieDelta]

most of the lgbt were actually well behaved people and very respectful... there was the odd few that fucked it up for everybody and made problems.....

btw I am not saying that erin was a smart ass..... I was saying how I know from past experience how discrimination and lgbt phobia are thrown around far too bloody much..... and while there is aspects of bad conduct by hospital staff.... there is nothing to support any theory that erin is the only person treated badly by that hospital.... so saying its discrimination against trans is a broad statement.....

its simply bad manner and lack of courtesy to a patient ...... btw if erin was in critical need of attention, she should have rang a bloody ambulance.....
if she was well enuf to drive to the hospital and leave again ...then I do not rate her as critical......

however coughing up blood is a serious issue.... I have grave concerns about a doctor that would tell a person to wait and see what happens..... and meanwhile, go find some money for a mri and other tests......
so why is the doctor not getting a earfull in a internet forum....... surely that is bad treatment of a trans person too

Do you know how much money it would cost to get an ambulance? Plenty let me assure you. Basic Ground Ambulance is $535.00 per transport.
Intermediate Ground Ambulance is $707.00 per transport.In addition $31.65 per mile. If you have another adult(her wife) that is available to take you in, you are well advised to avoid the ambulance. Especially if you are without insurance.

Bad treatment is bad treatment. It does need to be talked about and exposed for what it is. Just because they treat everyone crappy doesnt mean you let it slide.

Re: Her Dr, I dont know the facts in that case, He is the doctor, not me. I'm not going to second guess him. However if I were her , I'd be looking elsewhere.

[MarieDelta]

I never told you to shut up......... if I wanted to say that, I would have said it in plain english but I do not have that right......

yes erin was contacted by a person from the hospital, she believes..... so it would appear the matter is being addressed...... which is the correct way of handling things....... I am not arguing that at all.... in fact I stated its the best way to handle it..... go to the head office and lay a complaint....
I am not sure what posting all over the net, proves.... tho it can be argued that it highlights the fact that there is still discrimination in the world..... but... shrugs... where are the counter balance of stories of trans that have not being discriminated against, that show the move against discrimination is working.... why are you not posting them ????
I like to see both sides of things, not just one

now I was not being dismissive.... I just was not taking everything as a potshot at trans.... some of it may not be a potshot at trans, but its being added in for effect...... to enhance a case of bad conduct and courtesy by hospital staff......
the facts are, the direct face to face treatment of erin was bad and mishandled.... the mishandled of her gender identity was bad......etc

what was added in for effect, is the overhead remark about a unisex toilet that could have been taken out of context...
the exact reason why erin was not treated on the grounds of her gender identity.....
why they proceeded to do a psych evaluation at a teaching hospital ( I have my suspicions as to why )

they are unproven and out of context aspects to what happened..... but used to enhance a bad situation, to make it look worse.... and by doing that, the staff at the hospital all look bad now.... cos nobody knows who said what and who did what.... so there may be some bloody good nurses with a shitty rep now that never did anything to deserve it.... there only fault was working at a training hospital

its in the same way that I question why trans are getting killed at such a high rate..... as there is more to it than they are trans..... but I have noticed that I should not do that either, i am expected to say omg poor trans..... and yes i do say, for fucks sake.....
but I also question why it is happening......
and honestly..... if I was to use your statements as a indicator ( I am refering to the no need to be honest in relationships, remarks ).... I would hazard a quess as to why some of them have died...... now it doesn't make it right or acceptable...... but it does make it avoidable.....
but it makes trans people as a whole, look like they are a pack of liars that can not respect a partner and open their hearts and minds and trust in that partner.....


I hope the full story and the truth comes out.... not just erins side, but the full truth and what happened at the hospital..... so people know that the matter was fairly and clearly dealt with..... and the other non involved staff are cleared of any wrong doing in this case

Would you like me to quote where I percieve you to be dismissive?

Because it is there, for all the world to see.

Side issues:

Re: Stories of non-discrimination. I do post happy stories when I find them, at least I try to. Remember the story of the young woman who graduated Summa Cum Laude (http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9303)? Or the story of the YA novel (http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9654)? Or perhaps the story of the queer/ feminst/ trans porn (http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9309)

Re: Trans Murder Rate - In most cases the trans folk who were killed, were killed well after they had told their atackers. In fact in Angie Zapata's case he knew going in that she was trans as it was in the profile on the dating site where they met. I suspect that transsexuals are no more untrustworthy than other folks, based on my experience. Which has little or nothing to do with this case.

[void()]

(Gives Marie a big hug.)

I like this quote, "You treat the lady like you would anyone else, so get your a$$ moving."

For me that sums it up. And yeah I know it's the Ideal. Some of us do live up to it. I recall running a squad call one night. Some ditzy broad had downed a gallon of bleach, just to get her boyfriend's attention. We treated her no differently than anyone else. The expression of pure shock at being granted courtesy and dignity was a nice feeling.

She expected us to treat her like some piece of human waste. Instead she got a crew who uplifted her as a person, did their job of trying to save her life or keep her stable until reaching the hospital. We were calm, took it all in stride. Even the boyfriend raving at us as we loaded her. Good thing for him the police were on scene.

I'll say again, don't let those few rotten apples ruin a whole barrel, or don't pitch the baby with the bathwater. You are loved and respected. You've already great courage so keeping it through all the idiots should be a snap. Fuck 'em, they don't pay your way.

[darkeyes]

(Gives Marie a big hug.)

I recall running a squad call one night. Some ditzy broad had downed a gallon of bleach, just to get her boyfriend's attention. We treated her no differently than anyone else.

Bloody hopeya did Yummie Voidie.. bitta preferential an more urgent treatment ova guy next 2 'er who had drunk 1 nippie sweetie ova the 8...;) :tong: butyas ok..me knos zactly wotyas gettin at..:)

Here..me owes ya this... (((((((((((((Voidie))))))))))))))))))))

[Billys_gurl]

I am appalled to see this article. It really is a case of discrimination. I see no reason for ANYBODY to find a way to justify the attitude and ignorance for these close minded, insensitive, and stupid people. I certainly hope that this couple called someone and someplace to complain and get the compensation they certainly deserved for such terrible treatment. How dare they assume that the 'transvestite thing' was the reason she was at the hospital.

[Long Duck Dong]

Would you like me to quote where I percieve you to be dismissive?

Because it is there, for all the world to see.

Side issues:

Re: Stories of non-discrimination. I do post happy stories when I find them, at least I try to. Remember the story of the young woman who graduated Summa Cum Laude (http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9303)? Or the story of the YA novel (http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9654)? Or perhaps the story of the queer/ feminst/ trans porn (http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9309)

Re: Trans Murder Rate - In most cases the trans folk who were killed, were killed well after they had told their atackers. In fact in Angie Zapata's case he knew going in that she was trans as it was in the profile on the dating site where they met. I suspect that transsexuals are no more untrustworthy than other folks, based on my experience. Which has little or nothing to do with this case.

go for it, and I will post the numbers of the posts where I have stated I see a issue with the way the staff acted........ so if me acknowledging a issue is there is dismissive, then I would hate to me what its like when I ignore there is a issue......

I am simply not a * omg how wrong * person..... I look at issues, I break them down, I isolate the issues from the percieved issues..... and in doing that, I draw on my own experiences and knowledge..... and I look at both sides.....

I have posted in the past in this site, stories about nz first trans policewoman and the words first trans politician ( nz too ) but do not get me wrong..... we may have firsts in some areas.... but there is a dark side to nz too that I have acknowledged in the forums, even tho nz is a equal rights / anti discrimination leader..... so I will even judge my own country by the same set of rights I apply to every situation

and yes the trans are known as trans, it still doesn't explain why they were killed..... this is the same rule applied to any other person..... but one factor applies to trans that generally doesn't apply to other people and that is the difference of thinking
a trans will see them as the person they are..... other people will not......they will see them as the former gender, and in cases, react violently after they find out that the person they were intimate with, was the same gender as them.......
you have the stance that violence against a person is unacceptable.... and I agree.... but I have another stance.... risk minimization... and thats where we are different...... you have the stance that a trans should not have to be honest with partners..... I have the stance, it could save their lives....

as for the ambulance issue you posted in another post..... well again... it supports the strong possibility that erin has no insurance.... and that could have been a strong factor in the hospitals non treatment of her
I am not saying its right or wrong.... I am saying its a strong factor....

now I will state this clearly, I have dysthimia and I lack the strong emotions that influence other people..... so i treat everybody the same... LGBT and hetero...... and I also see things the same,.... I do not apply a different stance for trans v's heteros, v's lgb

everybody wants to be treated equally, so thats what I do...... and thats what you are seeing as dismissive.... its simply me not doing the * omg its a trans person * thing.... its me doing the * ok lets look at what we know, and what the facts are *... and I would do the same thing regardless if it was a trans, a hetero, a gay, a les, a bi or a alien from out of space....

[Billys_gurl]

I am slightly confused as to the assumption everyone has made that Erin's comment about not telling what the conditions might have been was she not telling the doctor. I believe that Erin meant that she couldn't tell the interviewer what the conditions might have been.
I will admit that the hospitals tend to ignore you a little longer when they know you don't have insurance they can sock it to, but the snickers, snide comments, and such were very uncalled for. As to the questions they came back to ask, I feel maybe they were trying to see if the child was safe in this relationship. Ignorance is not always bliss, and it can sometimes be very misguided.

[MarieDelta]

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showpost.php?p=177577&postcount=12

and its too easy to find fault with everything a person does, and be offended by it...... and thats what I am seeing in the article.....

the remark about the unisex toilet....???? well if I think back to the thread in this site about trans people using gender specific toilets..... and how it can cause issues...... the remark could have meant that hospital staff were referring to how having a unisex toilet was a way that would void that issue..... we have to bear in mind, the remark was overheard and its like listening in to a phone call and only hearing one side.....

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showpost.php?p=177690&postcount=29

but yet again.... we have the * omg trans are victims * etc, stance in the forums......and god help anybody that doesn't do the * poor trans * stance every time something is posted.....

and as we already know... unless you handle trans with kid bloody gloves... its gonna be called discrimination.....

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showpost.php?p=177706&postcount=32
now as I have stated..... there could be valid reasons for some of what happened in the hospital.... like I said, we have one side of things, by a disgruntled person......not all the facts.....

Seems pretty dismissive to me...


LDD what you have said amounts to calling her an alarmist at best and a liar at worst. But I suppose in your rush to defend what you see as the other side , you don’t see that. This is a tactic that has been used in the past to shut up people who have spoken up against discrimination.

I am for equal rights, as well. I want everyone to be treated with the same respect as we would wish for ourselves. Shouldn't that be the desire of everyone?

By the way, what I said was there is no requirement for them to be honest. Which is totally separate from the safety issues involved.

[Long Duck Dong]

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showpost.php?p=177577&postcount=12

and its too easy to find fault with everything a person does, and be offended by it...... and thats what I am seeing in the article.....

the remark about the unisex toilet....???? well if I think back to the thread in this site about trans people using gender specific toilets..... and how it can cause issues...... the remark could have meant that hospital staff were referring to how having a unisex toilet was a way that would void that issue..... we have to bear in mind, the remark was overheard and its like listening in to a phone call and only hearing one side.....

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showpost.php?p=177690&postcount=29

but yet again.... we have the * omg trans are victims * etc, stance in the forums......and god help anybody that doesn't do the * poor trans * stance every time something is posted.....

and as we already know... unless you handle trans with kid bloody gloves... its gonna be called discrimination.....

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showpost.php?p=177706&postcount=32
now as I have stated..... there could be valid reasons for some of what happened in the hospital.... like I said, we have one side of things, by a disgruntled person......not all the facts.....

Seems pretty dismissive to me...


LDD what you have said amounts to calling her an alarmist at best and a liar at worst. But I suppose in your rush to defend what you see as the other side , you don’t see that. This is a tactic that has been used in the past to shut up people who have spoken up against discrimination.

I am for equal rights, as well. I want everyone to be treated with the same respect as we would wish for ourselves. Shouldn't that be the desire of everyone?

By the way, what I said was there is no requirement for them to be honest. Which is totally separate from the safety issues involved.

so you need to twist my words ??????

I have not accused erin of wrong doing.... I am saying that some of what was stated by erin.... is ambiguous.... how erin took it is possibly not how it was meant.......
hence i am ignoring the ambiguous parts and focusing on the clear aspects of issues......

the unisex toilet remark, was over heard.... what is the rest of what was said, who said it and why ????? and what was the context.....???????
I have stated that a number of times......
the staff could have been refering to trans people using unisex toliets and how that would stop other patients complaining about men in womans toliets and women in mens toliets.......
WE DO NOT KNOW...........
but it appears that in your eyes, overheard parts of conversations, taken out of context, are still discrimination against a person........ when in fact they could have been explaining a issue or addressing a issue to other people
there is a reason why there are unisex toliets in hospitals..... its easier to have unisex toliets than multiple ladies and gents toilets

now yes I said the * omg trans are victims * and * god help any people that is not doing the * poor trans * stance......
you are so busy pulling apart everything I say to fit your opinion and STILL ignoring the fact I have said there is a issue there to be answered for at the hospital.... you have missed the part where I questioned if the same bad treatment of a patient is isolated to erin or if there is a pattern of bad treatment across the board to patients of other races and sexualities..... IE everybody that went to the hospital...
btw thats me considering everybody equally, not one persons experience.....

as for the kid gloves.... yes, I said that.... and as i have stated, it appears that my words are correct....
you are accusing me of being dismissive of issues regarding erin...and I am not.... again, I have stated that there are issues with the hospital staffs conduct, but not all of it can be proven to be discrimination and offensive..... only that erin got offended by things like a overheard, out of context remark about unisex toilets......

the rest of it.... was mishandling by the staff, lack of courtesy and consideration and a clear example of areas that need addressing, but not just for trans people... but ANYBODY that goes to the hospital.....

now marie.... how many more times are you gonna to say that I am taking the other side against erin..... when I have repeatedly acknowledged the issues that do clearly exist.........

that is my point when I say things like the * omg poor trans * stance...... you are making it appear like any person that says anything other than * omg poor trans * is wrong and not considerate of trans people......

as for the equal rights and respect thing...... give up on that.... you are demanding respect for people equally, while endorsing dishonesty and deceit in relationships.....

now I will say it again,... yes there is a issue with the way the hospital staff acted at the hospital..... some of it was clearly wrong.... other parts, are open to personal interpretation.... so there is no telling what was actually said and in what context......
so it is easy to slam the hospital staff and cry discrimination and offensive behievour....... rather than look at the statements by erin and realise that erin was offended by things, but it doesn't mean that everything was done to be offensive or offend.....

[MarieDelta]

I did not twist your words or even take them out of context. each has a link to where you posted them. Anyone on this forrum can see what you said and where it was taken from.


It is pretty obvious that its discriminatory behavior. But again you are minimizing and dismissing her claims. All in the name of trying to figure out 'both sides'.

She did not say that it was anything other than an overheard remark , did she? It seems that her honest recounting of her story isnt good enough.

The hospital does not need defending. It's not as if they are going to go bankrupt and shut their doors because their reputation got sullied. Further they hire lawyers and PR professionals to take care of that job, you dont need to do it.

If someone stands up for their rights, thats not being a victim. Erin is standing up for her rights.

You have a problem with what I said in the other thread, I'm sorry but you'll just have to deal with it. I'm not changing my mind. This thread, however, is not about that.

[Long Duck Dong]

I did not twist your words or even take them out of context. each has a link to where you posted them. Anyone on this forrum can see what you said and where it was taken from.


It is pretty obvious that its discriminatory behavior. But again you are minimizing and dismissing her claims. All in the name of trying to figure out 'both sides'.

She did not say that it was anything other than an overheard remark , did she? It seems that her honest recounting of her story isnt good enough.

The hospital does not need defending. It's not as if they are going to go bankrupt and shut their doors because their reputation got sullied. Further they hire lawyers and PR professionals to take care of that job, you dont need to do it.

If someone stands up for their rights, thats not being a victim. Erin is standing up for her rights.

You have a problem with what I said in the other thread, I'm sorry but you'll just have to deal with it. I'm not changing my mind. This thread, however, is not about that.

and they can also see where I acknowledged the fact there was issues that need addressing so if thats minimizing and dismissing her claims,..... why did I say she should lay a complaint with head office....?????

erin did not say anything other than it was a overheard remark..... but as I have stated,.... that same remark has been used to enhance a issue, to make it look worse......
unless erin knew exactly what was said and why, there was no need to mention it..... unless erin had taken exception to the remark.....

so yes, erin should lay a complaint based on the direct face to face conduct of the hospital as that was clearly out of line.. not the overheard remarks....
and follow it up to ensure that measures are taken to avoid further issues.....

as for her rights ???? erin, like any other member of the public should have the right to fair and effective medical treatment in a hospital.... this treatment of erin and her partner, should be on the same level as any other person ...... any person should have the right to expect that.......

the hospital has the right to ask for any info that they feel is pertinent to treatment of a patient.... regardless of if we feel its right or not.... they are the hospital... we are not...... and as a training hospital, they may have a different protocol

btw before you twist that around and say that I am dismissing more of erins issue..... I am not.... I have already stated that she needs to file a complaint....

now I went back and read the rest of the article, the part that you left off..... and yes there is mention of other people being treated poorly at the hospital....... something I asked about in this thread and you did not address.....
so it would appear its not a case of trans phobia or discrimination against a trans person..... but a pattern of crap service at a hospital that other people have mentioned as well


AC: In a perfect world, how would this issue with the hospital be resolved?

EV: In a perfect world it wouldn't have happened, but I would like to see an apology, as well as training in LGBTQI issues for all the staff. According to some message boards I have been on this week, this is not an isolated incident at Ball, and that's ridiculous.


the next time you want to tell me that I am dismissing erins statements as minor.... bear in mind you never posted the part that showed it was not confined to a trans person.... but a number of other people as well... and that changes it from transphobia against one trans person.... to a number of different cases of issues with the hospital
but thats the trouble with not taking things at face value and looking at both sides..... you tend to find there is more to things than there appears

[darkeyes]

I think you're a bit unfair to Marie, Duckie.. she posted the main complaint and also the link which brings up what you are saying.. so in fact she posted the entire article de facto.. its up to others whether or not to open that link, and then to interpret things for themselves..

Every medical institution has complaints laid against it.. indeed every institution, since they are made up of very fallible human beings.. off hand, bad mannered, inept treatment by staff, nursing or admin is simply not good enough especially in an institution which is meant to save lives. That Erin's case is not isolated is not surpising therefore, but the question then arises of whether her treatment by staff was as a result of ineptitude, bad manners or prejudice and discrimination.. if the details as we have them are correct, there is at least a case for the hospital and the staff to answer that prejudice and discrimination at least played its part.. institutions often have excellent policies for dealing with discrimination.. my own school has a good policy on discipline for example.. yet in practice it is a bloody shambles because of weak and poor management and a lack of support for staff by senior management.. while this may not be the case at this hospital, there is a case that management either do not have sufficient policies to deal with cases such as Erin's, and/or that they do not have their finger on the pulse of what is going on in their institution and questions have to be asked about staff training in patient relations.. in one it is negligence by ommission, in the other negligence and incompetence which is permeated from the top. I don't know whether the hospital has a good, strong and efficient management or not.. but there is a case to answer at the very least, that it has a problem in dealing with transegendered patients, and where there is one problem there is likely to be more.. so there is a case to answer that in Erin's case, that her treatment was due to prejudice and dicrimination by at least some of the medical and admin staff the hospital employs.

[Long Duck Dong]

I think you're a bit unfair to Marie, Duckie.. she posted the main complaint and also the link which brings up what you are saying.. so in fact she posted the entire article de facto.. its up to others whether or not to open that link, and then to interpret things for themselves..

Every medical institution has complaints laid against it.. indeed every institution, since they are made up of very fallible human beings.. off hand, bad mannered, inept treatment by staff, nursing or admin is simply not good enough especially in an institution which is meant to save lives. That Erin's case is not isolated is not surpising therefore, but the question then arises of whether her treatment by staff was as a result of ineptitude, bad manners or prejudice and discrimination.. if the details as we have them are correct, there is at least a case for the hospital and the staff to answer that prejudice and discrimination at least played its part.. institutions often have excellent policies for dealing with discrimination.. my own school has a good policy on discipline for example.. yet in practice it is a bloody shambles because of weak and poor management and a lack of support for staff by senior management.. while this may not be the case at this hospital, there is a case that management either do not have sufficient policies to deal with cases such as Erin's, and/or that they do not have their finger on the pulse of what is going on in their institution and questions have to be asked about staff training in patient relations.. in one it is negligence by ommission, in the other negligence and incompetence which is permeated from the top. I don't know whether the hospital has a good, strong and efficient management or not.. but there is a case to answer at the very least, that it has a problem in dealing with transegendered patients, and where there is one problem there is likely to be more.. so there is a case to answer that in Erin's case, that her treatment was due to prejudice and dicrimination by at least some of the medical and admin staff the hospital employs.

hugs fran..... and thank you....... yes there is a case to answer...... and yes it is unclear as to if it is transphobia, bad training or lousy staff skills or shocking management involvement..... to my eyes, its a mixture of the whole lot but due to the fact there could be a number of people involved.... as staff and as other patients ....... I am inclined to say that its mainly bad training and lousy staff skills..... and any discrimination is by a few of the staff... not all the hospital staff..... however I do agree that it appears that the hospital lacks a proper procedure for dealing with trans people.... or that it is not being followed

while I feel for erin and her partner.... she is not the only person affected by this.......there have been other patients......and that is why I am not doing the * omg poor trans * stance... I am doing the * for fucks sake, how wide spread is this issue *

you are like me, i am inclined to see that people are trying to do their jobs and the the failings are coming thru bad management and senior staff.... in not addressing unprofessional conduct with staff interactions with patients....

that has been my point all along... you have some staff trying to do their jobs... and other staff making right assholes of themselves.... and the hospital has to take responsibility for addressing the issues and faults within the system.....

but I stand by what I have said that some aspects of the issue do not lay with the hospital..... and by that I am referring to erins doctors handling of things, and erins own statements of things that are unproven and ambiguous statements taken out of context..

so yes... I hold the people responsible for what happened.... as responsible for what happened.... but I am not blaming the hospital as a whole..... it would be like blaming your school and all the students, for the actions of a couple of school bullies.....
but I would question the victims of the school bullies to see if the victims actions or words also contributed to the acts of the bullies, to see how future issues can be avoided on all sides......

and that appears to be the issue in this thread... I am not taking one persons side and slamming everybody else as wrong.....

[MarieDelta]

I agree that the problem is poor staf training. I agree that the problem is that everyone receives poor service, I dont think I said any different. Poor treatment is poor treatment.

However I think the instituition as a whole should be held resposible. Yes these staff should be held personally resposible. But who hired, trained and employed these staff? If it was one isolated incident that would be one thing however with a record, well it seems like the problem starts at the top.

Next the matter of Erins forthcoming about her issues, if you didnt see it I posted where she addressed that issue.

Right here: http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showpost.php?p=177679&postcount=28

Regardless if other things are going on , it still is a case of discrimination. It doesnt matter if racism is presentor homophobia is present. All are equally bad and need to be addressed by the indivduals in supervisory positions. If not then those supervisors need to be replaced by more competent supervisors.

I did do a search to try to verify the claim that other discimination had or had not taken place and could not come up with an answer. So therefore I can only state the facts as Erin has laid them out.

[darkeyes]

I agree that the problem is poor staf training. I agree that the problem is that everyone receives poor service, I dont think I said any different. Poor treatment is poor treatment.

However I think the instituition as a whole should be held resposible. Yes these staff should be held personally resposible. But who hired, trained and employed these staff? If it was one isolated incident that would be one thing however with a record, well it seems like the problem starts at the top.

Next the matter of Erins forthcoming about her issues, if you didnt see it I posted where she addressed that issue.

Right here: http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showpost.php?p=177679&postcount=28

Regardless if other things are going on , it still is a case of discrimination. It doesnt matter if racism is presentor homophobia is present. All are equally bad and need to be addressed by the indivduals in supervisory positions. If not then those supervisors need to be replaced by more competent supervisors.

I did do a search to try to verify the claim that other discimination had or had not taken place and could not come up with an answer. So therefore I can only state the facts as Erin has laid them out.

Yes yes yes an yes me luffly Trollop... when we do a job, and are on duty.. we are personally responsible for what we do.. but ultimate responsibility rests with our employer, who, while we are at work, we represent.. what we do is on behalf of the company or employer.. so any cock ups on our part are the company or employers cock up.. and apart from being personally responsible held to account by our employer, we can often be legally held to account by someone we may have injured or offended in some way. The company or employer being ultimately responsible has a duty to resolve complaints to the satisfaction of whoever has been injured or offended who may take them to an outside body such as an ombudsman or even ultimately to sue in a court of law.

[Long Duck Dong]

yes a institution has a responsibility to ensure a fair and balanced workplace for its employees and clients / patients..... and ensure that adequate training and work place / customer relations, is at a good standard....

but you may not know that you have potentially discriminating employees until they discriminate or cause work place issues... and I am not sure about in the us..... but in nz, when I was working in the vineyards, i had to employ a skin head ( white power / neo nazi ) cos of the anti discrimination laws in nz.... I was not allowed to refuse employment to him on the grounds of his beliefs nor my gut feeling that he was trouble in the making.....

10 days later, I had to rush him to hospital after he mouthed off and got dealt to by the other employees..... rather severely and no, charges were not laid as nobody would front up about what mattered so the police could not act.....


its a catch 22 issue..... the hospital has to employ people to work at the hospital and yes the hospital is responsible for them and their actions and words.... but you can not refuse to employ people unless you want to risk a discrimination lawsuit..... but if you do employee them, you risk a discrimination lawsuit......

if erin goes after the hospital over this and takes it to court.... the hospital will lose and have to pay up.... but the hospital most likely had no choice other than to hire the very people that created this issue....

the laws we demanded to protect us from discrimination in the workplace, have become the same laws that force workplaces to employ people that discriminate against us..... and unfortunately, in erins case and in other cases.... thats what happened....

it is something I have referred to in the past..... with laws about anti discrimination.... they are a double edged sword.... and like the 1st us amendment, protest peoples rights ( things like KKK marchs and public speeches )
but it is something we can not fix or change as we want equal rights and equality for all

[darkeyes]

I have never been in a position to employ people Duckie, but know bloody bwell that employers find a million and one reasons not to employ someone they dont want.. its easier now that the economy is in the poop and their are literally hundreds after one position, but employers dont usually say "I'm not employing u cos ur a fascist, poofter, dyke, commie or a woman, have children or are too old"... at least not in the UK. People don't have a right to a particular job and employers cant be forced to employ us.. they just use their noggins and find an excuse which makes sure we don't get the job...

..but once we are in it we should be trained to make sure we have a chance of doing what is requires.. and that includes customer relations and how to deal with people in a decent and acceptable way...

[MarieDelta]

Being hired or hiring the "right" people is easier than you'd think. If you dont like someone you simply tell them "we dont feel you'd fit in" or "we decided to hire someone else" you dont have to tell them why. As Fran said this is easier than ever with so many people out of work.

[DuckiesDarling]

I disagree with that, Marie. As someone who was responsible for hiring and firing in an "at will" state such as Kentucky, I often would take applications from people I wouldn't hire in a million years. These went into a folder we managers called File 13, we knew there was a reason for each manager to put an app there.

For the ones we found to be unhirable after an interview, for various reasons stemming from hygiene on up to undesirable remarks we would mark the app with NFW for "no fucking way" if we were ever asked by EEOC about the code we could state no friday or weekend.

Firing was a lot easier when you didn't have to have a specific reason in the state, but we did for our company. Insubordination, no show no call, customer complaints verified... all of those were reasons for us to terminate anyone from the lowliest server to the levels of management under us.

But there were many times we hired someone outwardly presentable, who gave a good interview and seemed to be an asset to our company. Only to find it was a mask they displayed and it slipped often on the job in their dealings with customers and other staff. So you can not always be assured you are hiring someone that will not cause issues at your company, even in this day of unemployment.

[MarieDelta]

I disagree with that, Marie. As someone who was responsible for hiring and firing in an "at will" state such as Kentucky, I often would take applications from people I wouldn't hire in a million years. These went into a folder we managers called File 13, we knew there was a reason for each manager to put an app there.

For the ones we found to be unhirable after an interview, for various reasons stemming from hygiene on up to undesirable remarks we would mark the app with NFW for "no fucking way" if we were ever asked by EEOC about the code we could state no friday or weekend.

Firing was a lot easier when you didn't have to have a specific reason in the state, but we did for our company. Insubordination, no show no call, customer complaints verified... all of those were reasons for us to terminate anyone from the lowliest server to the levels of management under us.

But there were many times we hired someone outwardly presentable, who gave a good interview and seemed to be an asset to our company. Only to find it was a mask they displayed and it slipped often on the job in their dealings with customers and other staff. So you can not always be assured you are hiring someone that will not cause issues at your company, even in this day of unemployment.

But it wasnt anti-discrimination laws that caused you to hire any of your workers , correct?

What I am trying to say is that employers can be pretty picky about who they hire, and dont necessarily have to give you a reason you were not selected.

In addition in an "at will" state there is even less reason to keep someone on, as you said you dont have to give any reason for firing them.

[DuckiesDarling]

Right, but what Duck was pointing out is that they do have anti-discrimination laws in NZ regarding hiring and firing of employees. As he pointed out he had no choice but to hire someone who was a neo-nazi and gave off a feeling of trouble. Later borne out when the skinheads mouth wrote checks his ass couldn't cash to some of the other workers. We are lucky here, employers can not hire for many reasons and even if it is for a discriminatory reason, good luck proving to the EEOC that was the reason you didn't get a job.

But then in NZ you can't sue people and here in America we sue at drop of a hat... funny the differences at times eh?

[darkeyes]

Right, but what Duck was pointing out is that they do have anti-discrimination laws in NZ regarding hiring and firing of employees. As he pointed out he had no choice but to hire someone who was a neo-nazi and gave off a feeling of trouble. Later borne out when the skinheads mouth wrote checks his ass couldn't cash to some of the other workers. We are lucky here, employers can not hire for many reasons and even if it is for a discriminatory reason, good luck proving to the EEOC that was the reason you didn't get a job.

But then in NZ you can't sue people and here in America we sue at drop of a hat... funny the differences at times eh?

We have anti discrimination laws on hiring and firing too, but they don't exist nor do they work so asya have to hire someone just cos they apply for a job or can't fire someone. I've no doubt the law of New Zealand doesnt either and so I am somewhat mystified why Duckie felt he HAD to hire this guy. There is always choice whether or not someone is hired for a job vacancy...

[Long Duck Dong]

it appears that nobody have experience in the vineyards or understands harvest and pruning time......

we are talking about 5-6000 workers in the pruning season and up to 10,000 during the harvest season and experienced workers are valuable to any employer, specially when you have limited time to complete contracts....

the nz benefit dept refers workers out to the vineyard teams.... and if we are rejecting experienced workers, winz will want to know why...and they will support the workers over the employers as low unemployment looks good on paper and in govt stats

I had no grounds for refusing employment to a experienced vineyard worker, in the middle of pruning season, when the boss asked the benefit dept to refer workers out to us and I could imagine my boss's mood if I am rejecting workers cos i believe they are fuckwits and it costs us a $300,000 8 week contract.....

so my ass is caught between my boss, the benefit dept and the vineyard owners and the employment tribunal....

[darkeyes]

it appears that nobody have experience in the vineyards or understands harvest and pruning time......

we are talking about 5-6000 workers in the pruning season and up to 10,000 during the harvest season and experienced workers are valuable to any employer, specially when you have limited time to complete contracts....

the nz benefit dept refers workers out to the vineyard teams.... and if we are rejecting experienced workers, winz will want to know why...and they will support the workers over the employers as low unemployment looks good on paper and in govt stats

I had no grounds for refusing employment to a experienced vineyard worker, in the middle of pruning season, when the boss asked the benefit dept to refer workers out to us and I could imagine my boss's mood if I am rejecting workers cos i believe they are fuckwits and it costs us a $300,000 8 week contract.....

so my ass is caught between my boss, the benefit dept and the vineyard owners and the employment tribunal....

Do c ya hav lil prob ther Duckie.. I understand a little better now ty.. am not absolutely convinced, but u kno ur own biz... will shurrup..

Btw.. Kate brought in a case of Old Renwick Road Pinot Noir last nite... down from 16 quid a bottle 2 10... just 'bout fell through the floor... now I'm ver fond a NZ plonk.. but usually I dont pay moren bout 7 quid at most a bottle except for special occasions.. ordinaire run a the mill guzzlin at home which is wot she got this for seems a lil excessive.. wudn mind but we hav a bloody cellar full.. an she has cheek 2 call ME a spendthrift.. it had betta b decent plonk lemme tellya..

[MarieDelta]

All due respect, but what does vinyard work in NZ have to do with hospitals in Indianna?

[Long Duck Dong]

same principal marie.... most people do not put down * white supremist * or * anti lgbt * on their resume..... but the company is responsible for the fuckwits that cause the issues in the work place......

we can blame the company for hiring assholes, but often you do not know the person is a asshole, until they act in a manner that ends up with a lawsuit
its why I am not blaming the hospital for employing the staff with the misconduct attitudes ..... but like fran I am holding the hospital responsible for what appears to be a series of issues against a number of patients.....

in the vineyard... I treated the skinhead as just another worker.... not as a skinhead.... and its the same with erin, I see her as just another patient....
equal treatment and equal rights.......

that is not being dismissive of erins situation either.... unless you want to imply that cos erin is trans, its somehow different to other cases of misconduct and unprofessional attitudes......

the only difference between erin and another person is they are two people......

[darkeyes]

....but isnt all that the point Duckie? She believes she wasnt treated like everyone else... and at the very least it has exposed weaknesses in how the hospital does its job and how well staff perform theirs..

[Long Duck Dong]

she believes and we believe, based around her statements......

and yeah it has revealed issues that sound like they have not been addressed in the past..... but that doesn't mean that the other people reported their issues to the hospital..... and thats what has me wondering if they were reported at all......or just complained about in forums

personally, myself, I generally do not report issues in hospitals if I can take steps to correct the issues myself but thats more to do with patient treatment on and with myself..... as in some areas I am a test case for some treatments so I make allowances for staff inadequacies in dealing with issues like mine

I have the opinion that a direct hands on approach can remedy some issues with hospital staff.... and other issues require management input and remedy

[MarieDelta]

Sure we choose the people we believe will best do the job, and sometimes we are wrong.

However the issue remains. Mistreatment is mistreatment.

I believe that Erin deserves redress for the wrongs that were done to her. At the very least an apology from the hospital.

That everyone deserves to be treated like a human being, with respect and courtesy, that is what I am saying.

I dont believe, based on what she has said about her treatment, that anything she would have said at that point would have carried much weight. As she wasnt calm or able to be completely rational.

As far as the other reports, I havent been able to find anythng verifying them. It wouldnt surprise me if the hospital settled them out of court.

[MarieDelta]

Oh and for those of you who may have been concerned about Erins treatment.

INTRAA (http://www.intraa.org/) paid for her gas to a hospital, and the treatments that she needed as of this last Friday.

[MarieDelta]

Published in the Chicago Tribune yesterday 3:15pm

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-in-transgender-hospi,0,6019217.story


MUNCIE, Ind. — A transgender woman said she was ridiculed by hospital staff and eventually denied treatment when she went to a Muncie emergency room coughing up blood.

Officials at Ball Memorial Hospital said they are investigating Erin Vaught's allegations, which triggered complaints from advocacy groups.

"The irony here is that we spend so much time teaching about transgender issues at Ball State University," said Vivian Benge, president of the Indiana Transgender Rights Advocacy Alliance. "And yet there is Ball Memorial Hospital treading a transgender like this. It is so sad."

Vaught is a transsexual, someone who has transitioned or is transitioning from one gender to another, The Star Press reported Friday. In her case, it's from male to female.

Vaught said when she, her wife and son went to the ER on July 18, she was entered into the hospital computer system as male despite an ID that stated she was female.

"I pointed out that my ID says female," Vaught said. "There were two ladies there, and one of them snickered a little bit and covered her mouth. The other got a very annoyed look on her face."

When she went to the exa- room, 3he was met with stares and insults and was referred to as a "he-she," an "it," and a "transvestite."

Vaught said she was kept waiting for two hours without any treatment before a doctor saw her and said she couldn't treat her because of her transgender condition.

"I was confused," Vaught said. "I told them I didn't know my condition, that's why I was there. She said 'No, the transvestite thing.' She said I couldn't see a doctor until I came back with test orders from my doctor in Indy."

Benge said such reactions are not uncommon. But Vaught and her supporters wrote about her experience on the hospital's Facebook page, attracting the attention of advocacy groups including the Indiana Transgender Rights Advocacy Alliance and Indiana Equality.

The groups sent a joint letter to the hospital about how Vaught was "inhumanely treated, dehumanized and disrespected."

Ball Memorial spokesman Will Henderson said the hospital first became aware of Vaught's concerns on July 19 via a Google alert, and that a patient representative was investigating the issue.

"We take our patients' rights policy very seriously," Henderson said.

While the policy doesn't mention transgender people specifically, Henderson said it would apply.

"And, should there be any merit to the concerns expressed in the comments, the Hospital will respond in the appropriate manner," hospital president Michael E. Haley said in a post on Ball Memorial's Facebook page.

Haley said the hospital is "committed to providing care with respect, dignity and courtesy."

Meanwhile, Benge said the Transgender Rights Advocacy Alliance has arranged for Vaught to be treated at an Indianapolis hospital.

"We are trying to help her to regain her dignity and humanity," Benge said. "This is a very difficult kind of thing to go throueh."

[kcatthegreat]

WTF? That's like if I went to a pulmonologist and said, "I can't breath," and they said, "We don't know how to treat people that have a broken ankle." You're not treating me for a broken ankle. You're treating me because I can't breath. One has nothing to do with the other.

If someone is coughing up blood, that is a respiratory problem and has nothing to do with transsexuality. It also can be a serious problem and should not be ignored just because the ER personnel are transexual-phobic.

That person should move to a more open-minded place, and if any serious harm comes from her illness she should sue that hospital for not taking care of her.

[void()]

Said I wasn't but there is something needing clarification.

"and like the 1st us amendment, protest peoples rights ( things like KKK marchs and public speeches )
but it is something we can not fix or change as we want equal rights and equality for all"

With free speech, yes the KKK may hand out literature, have a public and peaceful assembly. But they can not overstep a certain line. For example they may not incite violence, or even to some degree use hate language. If they do, that infringes upon the rights of others.

Of course, this is the right of any group, even Holy Pine Cone worshipers. Then, we are America, where ideas and opinions may be freely exchanged and people can even agree to disagree. And as you say, it can be a double edged sword. Ain't life fun that way?

Within the past three years, here in Virginia, we lifted a ban on cross burning. It was meant as a political statement aimed at the then Administration / Executive Branch. In essence it was meant to remind the big wigs that Virginia disposes of tyrants, and to say rather boldly we felt the then current POTUS had overstayed his welcome.

Yes, we have KKK in Virginia. They mostly stay under the radar and don't bother people. Although, some have surely been jailed, tried, sued. We do not tolerate hate mongers any more than tyrants. But we can at least be civil to them.

I'm sure a lawyer could better explain the rights and such. This however is my basic understanding as a 'common Joe'. And yes, I'd still offer my life for her today, despite being disillusioned and placing no confidence in our 'system'. There is a larger dream at play and work in America, one that remains living no matter how many attempt interning it.

[IanBorthwick]

Somehow I knew posting this would be a bad idea...

I was trying to discuss something important to me, all you've done is confirm to me at least, if I ever need help, to not call you as you would never have my back. You would always make some excuse why the other guys were in the right.

Please, do not lump me in there. I have not responded because I did not see this until just now. The entire thing is wrong from start to finish. The way they acted, what they did, were completely out of line and non-medical in the way they responded or made excuses to act. I didn't read the whole article, but I am sure it is doubtless more of the same as the start. All I can do is hope that she got the treatment she needed.

[MarieDelta]

Please, do not lump me in there. I have not responded because I did not see this until just now. The entire thing is wrong from start to finish. The way they acted, what they did, were completely out of line and non-medical in the way they responded or made excuses to act. I didn't read the whole article, but I am sure it is doubtless more of the same as the start. All I can do is hope that she got the treatment she needed.

Sorry Ian, that was directed at LDD.

[alli_smiles]

People in hospitals should know better, but sometimes some of them remind me of the popular kids in school making fun of the less popular or nerdy kids. They can be cruel. I say this as a former less popular nerdy kid..Under 3.5 ft tall in 6th grade, bowl cut, homemade clothes- yep got my ass beat).But this is worse, because your life could be in these cruel stupid people's hands. The only thing I can suggest is scout out the hospitals/staff in your area and find the best fit well in advance. I t may not help you in cases of traveling, but on your own home turf it will. You shouldn't have to worry about this, but til there is enough social change, unfortunately people will continue to behave badly. I hope you will never have to go through this.