OUT!

[butthat'snotmyname]

Did I insist that everybody acknowledge that I was a heterosexual when I was young and single and chasing women? I was probably a bit homophobic but that's not the same as insistent that people accept my heterosexuality. I am certain I did not manifest my homophobia outwardly. And I'm just as certain that I did not drape myself in the flag of heterosexuality. I knew better; I knew the truth.

Later, when I was married to and sexually active with a woman for twenty-two years (well, the last few years the sex was nonexistent), I was very in-your-face with the notion that my sexuality and sexual experience was between her and me and none of your damn business. I certainly never boasted about my bedroom, or front seat, or against the car in the garage experiences. I'm not boasting now. Sex was between her and me. Sometime in this period the homophobia left my nature (I hope so anyway; I don't see it at all); and the tendency toward desiring to be with a man remained.

Now I'm single and seeking companionship, intimacy and yes, sexual experiences with a man. I've enjoyed mutual masturbation on two occasions and want to try oral sex with a man. While I'm more interesting in him in my mouth than me in his mouth (no, I didn't type it backwards, I want him in my mouth) the sort of companionship I hope for excludes blatant selfishness. Among the general anxieties I recently experience, heightened as I type, is the notion that someday I will have to declare myself out. Form my vantage, not doing so will make me somehow less than acceptable among some in diverse groups such as read this forum.

Why do I have to be "out" at some point? What's wrong with enjoying the desire for privacy that I've enjoyed through my entire adult life. I'm here, I've told you I'm incidentally gay (this might change) and that should be enough. It seems to me that "out" connotes a militancy with which I've never been comfortable. It's best left between my partner/lover and me.

Any thoughts?

[MarieDelta]

Did I insist that everybody acknowledge that I was a heterosexual when I was young and single and chasing women? I was probably a bit homophobic but that's not the same as insistent that people accept my heterosexuality. I am certain I did not manifest my homophobia outwardly. And I'm just as certain that I did not drape myself in the flag of heterosexuality. I knew better; I knew the truth.

Later, when I was married to and sexually active with a woman for twenty-two years (well, the last few years the sex was nonexistent), I was very in-your-face with the notion that my sexuality and sexual experience was between her and me and none of your damn business. I certainly never boasted about my bedroom, or front seat, or against the car in the garage experiences. I'm not boasting now. Sex was between her and me. Sometime in this period the homophobia left my nature (I hope so anyway; I don't see it at all); and the tendency toward desiring to be with a man remained.

Now I'm single and seeking companionship, intimacy and yes, sexual experiences with a man. I've enjoyed mutual masturbation on two occasions and want to try oral sex with a man. While I'm more interesting in him in my mouth than me in his mouth (no, I didn't type it backwards, I want him in my mouth) the sort of companionship I hope for excludes blatant selfishness. Among the general anxieties I recently experience, heightened as I type, is the notion that someday I will have to declare myself out. Form my vantage, not doing so will make me somehow less than acceptable among some in diverse groups such as read this forum.

Why do I have to be "out" at some point? What's wrong with enjoying the desire for privacy that I've enjoyed through my entire adult life. I'm here, I've told you I'm incidentally gay (this might change) and that should be enough. It seems to me that "out" connotes a militancy with which I've never been comfortable. It's best left between my partner/lover and me.

Any thoughts?

Being out is for *you*

it can be slightly political as well, but that is only a side bennefit.

Most people dont care if you are gay , straight or bi.

But being out means:

• can be very freeing because you no longer have to live a lie.
• it can be easier to make gay/bi friends.
•Being out can make it easier to date.
•You can get involved with the gay community.
•You can get appropriate support if you need it.
•You will be a role model for others.
•You might feel better about yourself and improve your self esteem.
•You can help reduce stereotypes.
•You won't be afraid or stressed out about people finding out anymore.

Its up to *you*, however. Its your life and you get to lead it however.

[citystyleguy]

your desire for intimacy and privacy are definitely desirable, and as one who doesn't believe in the need to stand on rooftops screaming at the top of your lungs, or introducing yourself at a gathering, as in hi, my name is ___, and i am bisexual, way too much tmi!

however, it becomes necessary that this desire doesnt become a case of crossing over into being a closet case; having been around those types, can be a major and unnecessary burden to those with whom you share intimacy.

...and only you can make the distinction!

[Realist]

Butt,

Only YOU know what's right for YOU. You should do what you feel best. Anyone who tries to intimidate, cajole, or coerce you to do anything against your nature, is wrong.

I know of cases where coming out to family, friends, or the World, could have been extremely undesirable, or maybe even deadly.

Personally, I am only out to a very few of my best friends and, of course, my lover(s). I've chosen the best path for me.

As you stated, you didn't flaunt your sexuality with your wife, so why would you want to do differently with any other lover? The decision to come out, or not, is yours to make.

Each situation bares scrutiny, before launching oneself into an outing campaign.

[MarieDelta]

Being out means never having to hide your same sex partner. Or lie when you are asked about them.

It doesnt mean you have to wrap yourself in pink , purple, and blue. Doesnt mean that when you introduce yourself it is "Hi I'm Mary, and I'm Bi."

It simply means that you acknowledge, to those closest to you, that you are bi.

In some cases, where a person has an alternate gender or gender expression, it is painfully obvious to the rest of the world that their sexuality is not hetero anyways.

[DuckiesDarling]

First off, Butt, welcome to the site.

I have always maintained that your sexuality only matters to you and your partners. It's up to you if you tell the rest of the world. I may be straight but you won't find me confessing to my parents that I loved taking my man's ass or any of the other things we do in the bedroom cause it's none of their business.

It has been said, it's up to you. I get pretty sick and tired of seeing the accusations from people on here that if you aren't waving it from the rooftops you are closeted. Some people have to be discrete for differing reasons in their life, but I do believe the partner deserves to know so that steps can be taken to prevent transmission of STD's.

So once again, only you can decide if you are OUT or you are out. Six of one, half dozen of another in my book. You are what you are and more power to you because you recognize that. :2cents:

[MarieDelta]

First off, Butt, welcome to the site.

I have always maintained that your sexuality only matters to you and your partners. It's up to you if you tell the rest of the world. I may be straight but you won't find me confessing to my parents that I loved taking my man's ass or any of the other things we do in the bedroom cause it's none of their business.




However, DD, when you go out into public people assume you are straight in hundreds of different ways. To some people its important that they are recognized as being ones primary partner, even if they are same sex.

I dont go out broadcasting what I do in the bedroom, however it is important, to me, to be able to acknowledge those that I love. If someone finds out, it isnt a big deal, for me, because the important people in my life know already.

Again, yes, it is a *personal choice*. However, it does take a burden off me. If someone sees me out with a man, woman, or genderqueer, I dont have to worry. If they see me going into a gay/les bar, or glbt center, or any other *queer* establishment, it doesnt matter.

[DuckiesDarling]

Actually, Marie, most people don't assume shit about someone's sexuality in public because they do not care. It does not affect them. Obviously if you are going to LGBT places then you are more than likely to be assumed to be LGBT not straight.

[MarieDelta]

That has not been my experience , DD.

[jamieknyc]

There is no reason why anyone should feel an obligation to make a political statement out of publcizing their sexual orientation. Those who want to be 'out' have no justification for attaching judgmental labels or missionizing others to become 'out.'

[slipnslide]

I agree that you don't need a press conference to announce your sexuality. I don't like asparagus, but I don't make a point of letting everyone know. It's just who I am - a guy who doesn't like asparagus.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

lol Yeah, what they all said!! :} Welcome to the group sweetie, and unless you have this all consuming needcto announce to the world that you are bi, then dont. Its Your perogitive, so excersize it. ;)
Have a great day.
Cat
Everybodys feline

[void()]

I agree that you don't need a press conference to announce your sexuality. I don't like asparagus, but I don't make a point of letting everyone know. It's just who I am - a guy who doesn't like asparagus.

"Breaking news just in ... He doesn't like asparagus! *gasp*"

I actually do like it, then again no press conference here either. Also like apple butter and those new Oreo cake things, Resse cups. Who cares? :)

[mikey3000]

"Breaking news just in ... He doesn't like asparagus! *gasp*"

I actually do like it, then again no press conference here either. Also like apple butter and those new Oreo cake things, Resse cups. Who cares? :)

Ewwwww!!!! You like asparagus? What the hell is wrong with you, man! You need professional help. :bigrin:

[BiCycler]

Excellent points in your first post, Marie. Thank you for that. DD, I agree with you as well, especially on the point about people getting in your face for not waving the flag. However on one point, I disagree. Are you suggesting that one should practice safe sex differentialy according to one's sexuality? I don't think that is what you mean, you sound intelligent and any intelligent person would agree that unless you are already fluid bonded and in a closed relationship, safe sex needs to be practiced at all times. I don't like what city said or how he said it, but I give him kudos for being direct. There is much truth in what he says. I have been that 'closet case' he alludes to. What he doesn't mention is that we all come from different backgrounds and influences and we are, all of us, on different parts of that journey. Some of us have been fortunate enough to have or find in our lives people who support us in this journey and people who have common experience. Some of us travel the road alone in isolation trying to understand and come to terms with our sexuality. How lonely and painful that must be. I think the OP made a wise decision coming here for advice. We, at least share common understanding of the issue. Further to the point, city, some of us have valid reasons or feel we have valid reasons for not being out. I am some of the way out. I feel that I do not need to be out at work. I am a teacher and I truly believe my grade two students need know nothing of my sexuality simply because sexuality belongs in the realm of adults and not in my grade two class. (Sure, I get that we need to protect our children from those that would harm them so body awareness teaching is a necessary thing. I also get that we need to help our children to be tolerant and accepting citizens too, but in grade two who I am attracted to, men or women, really doesn't belong). I am not out to my family. I don't wish to witness or be the catalyst of the tradegy that would follow an announcement of my sexuality. I once began to ask my mom about virginity when I was sixteen. She shot me down instantly and told me that what I was asking was not an appropriate subject to be talking about with my mom. I was looking to a trusted individual in my life at a time when I really think I needed some guidence. My family all live on a boat in Egypt. (Think on it a second or two). My thinking is shifting on that last point though, as I move further along the road to coming out. All my friends know and most of my comtemporaries as well. I have encountered positive reactions far more often than not. Refer to Marie's list, they all apply plus the burden of hiding who you are is lifted. Marie mentioned self-esteem. I believe my self-esteem is much higher since taking the small step I have in coming out. I can be me and people really seem to like what they see. How can that not lift one's spirits? I had more to say, but lost what I had typed when I went to post.
To the OP, yes, I think you should come out, but that decision is yours and you are the only one who can make it. Don't allow anyone to make you feel badly if you choose not to.:flag2::rainbow:

[Ninnian]

Butt, Welcome!
I rarely post on teh threads.. but this is a topic I feel pretty strongly about. And my feelings are:
Only *YOU* need decide what is needful for others to know about your very private life.
I have non-ambiguous feelings about mixing politics with my sexual orientation. I DONT.- I also dont mix my Religeous leanings with Politics. It sullies both of them. Governement involvement in my bedroom *shudder*

But this is Me. Do as you wish, as long as it hurts none.

It has been my experience that many in the "tolerant" GBLT community can be , well....Hippocrites. * And before I get Flamed... I said MANY- NOT all.*
" If you aren't Out, You Fear. If you Aren't Out you don't Support 'US'. If you wont align and march to our 'causes du jour'.... you are 'hate-filled'. Jump in this Box, so I know what to expect out of you! No!, THIS is the only way you can feel about this Law/Agenda/spokesperson... to do otherwise means you are Against us! "

GAH!.... makes me ill-

Ok- Well.. Im not known for my tact. What's new?:bigrin:

Ninnian

[mikey3000]

Well, I think the best thing we can do for "the cause" is to be visible. How can we ask for acceptance in society when we aren't visible? I'm not saying to jam it down people's throats, just to show that we exist, that we aren't freaks, and that we deserve respect too. Is that too much to hope for? Most people assume that others are sexual beings anyway, usually gay or straight. Why not bi? How much you choose to reveal is totally up to you.

[slipnslide]

Well, I think the best thing we can do for "the cause" is to be visible.

Wait, what's the cause again?

[BiCycler]

I can't speak for Mike of course, but my guess is that the cause to which he refers is the very one that has our OP asking this question. Oh yeah, and that other stuff Mike wrote about like not being freaks and deserving respect: something granted by default to straight people and more and more for the G and L of that long acronym that includes the invisible bisexuals. While I agree with you Mike, not everyone is ready to take the step to activism.:flag2::rainbow:

[DuckiesDarling]

Excellent points in your first post, Marie. Thank you for that. DD, I agree with you as well, especially on the point about people getting in your face for not waving the flag. However on one point, I disagree. Are you suggesting that one should practice safe sex differentialy according to one's sexuality? I don't think that is what you mean, you sound intelligent and any intelligent person would agree that unless you are already fluid bonded and in a closed relationship, safe sex needs to be practiced at all times. I don't like what city said or how he said it, but I give him kudos for being direct. There is much truth in what he says. I have been that 'closet case' he alludes to. What he doesn't mention is that we all come from different backgrounds and influences and we are, all of us, on different parts of that journey. Some of us have been fortunate enough to have or find in our lives people who support us in this journey and people who have common experience. Some of us travel the road alone in isolation trying to understand and come to terms with our sexuality. How lonely and painful that must be. I think the OP made a wise decision coming here for advice. We, at least share common understanding of the issue. Further to the point, city, some of us have valid reasons or feel we have valid reasons for not being out. I am some of the way out. I feel that I do not need to be out at work. I am a teacher and I truly believe my grade two students need know nothing of my sexuality simply because sexuality belongs in the realm of adults and not in my grade two class. (Sure, I get that we need to protect our children from those that would harm them so body awareness teaching is a necessary thing. I also get that we need to help our children to be tolerant and accepting citizens too, but in grade two who I am attracted to, men or women, really doesn't belong). I am not out to my family. I don't wish to witness or be the catalyst of the tradegy that would follow an announcement of my sexuality. I once began to ask my mom about virginity when I was sixteen. She shot me down instantly and told me that what I was asking was not an appropriate subject to be talking about with my mom. I was looking to a trusted individual in my life at a time when I really think I needed some guidence. My family all live on a boat in Egypt. (Think on it a second or two). My thinking is shifting on that last point though, as I move further along the road to coming out. All my friends know and most of my comtemporaries as well. I have encountered positive reactions far more often than not. Refer to Marie's list, they all apply plus the burden of hiding who you are is lifted. Marie mentioned self-esteem. I believe my self-esteem is much higher since taking the small step I have in coming out. I can be me and people really seem to like what they see. How can that not lift one's spirits? I had more to say, but lost what I had typed when I went to post.
To the OP, yes, I think you should come out, but that decision is yours and you are the only one who can make it. Don't allow anyone to make you feel badly if you choose not to.:flag2::rainbow:

As to your question? I am not saying that because a person is bi they would practice safe sex differently, I'm just pointing out that bi, gay, or les, if you choose to go outside of your relationship with partner's permission you do expose said partner to everyone that the other person slept with. So I would hope that there would be extreme safe sex practiced when exchanging fluids with anyone and of course being "fluid bound" would be a form of safe sex.

[Long Duck Dong]

tolerance is a word the lgbt are quick to throw around..... tolerance of those that choose not to be out, but discreet or private individuals, is not something that the lgbt community are good at....

the arguments for coming out, consist of more chances to date and get laid, having to explain your same sex partner to others, to make the lgbt more visible

the arguments against coming out.... we do not choose to, we do not want to, it serves no benefit for us to come out.....

interesting how most of the arguments for coming out, are sexual or in the interests of other people......

I remember coming out, and personally it didn't change my life... the people around me that have issues with the lgbt, still have issues with the lgbt... the people that accepted me, still accept me..... the world never ended, and it have not changed much either.....

for the most part, being bisexual has not really made any different to my life.... cos its simply who I am attracted to...... and personally, what I do in the bedroom, is no big deal actually......its me and people in my bedroom....

personally I tend to read comments and think that the main reason that people endorse coming out, is so they have more people to fuck...... and honestly, if the lgbt put as much effort into being tolerant and supportive of other lgbt, and raising their voices as a single voice, then maybe, just maybe they would get more done in the way of lgbt rights.....
but lol lets be honest..... most of the effort goes into the bedroom and thats about it.....

so choose wisely, ignore the sexual and activist aspects of coming out, and look at what benefits it will have for you.......will you feel better about you, will it improve your general health and well being.... etc.... that is the important aspects of coming out.....
and that is why some people do not come out..... they may feel better about their selves, until their family and friends turn on them.....their spouse asks for a divorce and your boss fires you......

its not a fair world..... it never will be...... and coming out is a choice only you can make for you...not a choice based around others experiences

[Robinium]

Being "out" becomes important as soon as you start dating a same-sex person. Otherwise, it's optional.

[darkeyes]

Being "out" becomes important as soon as you start dating a same-sex person. Otherwise, it's optional.

It still remains optional....:)

[Realist]

I wonder how many of those, who are so militant about being out, are living in dogmatically religious, or adamantly anti gay families, or communities?

How many of them would come out where there would be serious social, economical, or even physical dangers involved? I think it would be less than smart, in that kind of environment, to come out.

Combined with the dangers I mentioned above, I'm not an "in your face" type of personality, but more of a "live and let live", person. My GF feels the same and we are satisfied with our choice of remaining out to only a few trusted friends and lovers.

I agree with those who say if we aren't out, and being positive examples, there won't be any gains for the GLBT community. But if the environment in which you live isn't ready for it, it may be best to keep your sexuality to yourself!

[MarieDelta]

Dating isn’t about sex, well not just about sex. If that’s all you see in dating, I suggest it isn’t a date you are looking for, in my opinion.

Most gay men and lesbians who are out already don’t want to be bothered with someone who is closeted. They've been through that drama already.

Being out is not for everyone, however. In the end it is for you, and you alone, to determine how out you wish to be.

It is my belief that it is a net positive, for the individual, to be out. It offers more opportunities for personal growth, and allows freedom to pursue that growth. More than just sex and politics. Companionship, support, friendship and the freedom to not care what others think of your sexuality, should they "find out."

Again, only *you* know what is best for you in your situation.

Let me make myself clear, on something else as well. Being out, doesn’t mean being out in a big way. No one says there has to be a banner proclaiming your sexuality over your head. It means, simply acknowledging, when appropriate.

I think, sometimes, people confuse being out with being an activist. That is not what being out means, at least to me.

It means not having to hide your sexuality, when it is appropriate.

That's all it means, no more, no less.

Being closeted means to me- Hiding & worrying about who knows what, when, and where you are. Worrying about who will look at your internet history and what they might think if they do. It means never acknowledging your same sex partner outside of the bedroom. Never discussing that cute guy or girl. It means furtive encounters in hotel rooms for fear that the neighbors might find out. It means lying to those closest to you about who you are. Which if/when they find out they will feel hurt and betrayed and lied to.

In my experience in the trans community, when a spouse finds out that their partner is trans, it usually is a trauma to the relationship. A trauma that is similar to having been caught having an affair. This is especially true in putatively heterosexual relationships where the man is a secretive crossdresser. I have seen and talked to both spouses who have gone through this. It is never pretty. The cisgender partner feels like they were betrayed, lied to, and not trusted. I know, personally, several crossdressing folks who have been through several marriages, and still choose not to tell prospective partners about who they are.

However that is their choice. I wouldn’t *out* them for the world. I do understand the fear that drives them to feel that way. I've been through it. Coming out to a prospective partner is one of the hardest things you can imagine. But it does get easier, in my experience.

It is true both, that most people don’t care, and that unless corrected they will assume you are straight. It isn’t something they *see* as a possibility, unless you tell them. However being out doesn’t even require that much effort.

It's nice if you are out enough to set a good example, but it isn't required. Being politically active is a good / responsible thing, too, not required either.

All of which to say this is my personal experience and opinion. I will, and can, only speak for myself.

[Dead Account]

In this life of complicated scenarios, I have found its best to look after oneself. Im not only bi-curious, but Im an AA member and understand that anonymity is important with my job, my home life and with friends I have. If I lead with the chin, I can expect to get popped once or twice. I dont open up to those who are incapable of understanding in other words. I dont need a bumper sticker, a T-shirt or a big sign to define who I am, I can do that internally and with a trusted friend. Pearls are not for swine.

Ignorance, lack of education and intolerance pervade this world and I will not be anyones voodoo doll if I have anything to say about it.

Example: I also have alopecia areata, which causes my hair to fall out in patches and I am one of the rare ones that the patches grow back in without pigment. Out of sheer ignorance, I get comments behind my back, etc. from those who "think" they understand- saying things like- "Hes gay, thats why he dies his hair like that", or "hes really stressed out, he needs therapy".. bla, bla, bla....

The truth is that alopecia is an autoimmune disorder, and those that have it will almost always have another autoimmune ailment like asthma, allergies, eczema (I also have all 3) and so on. I have no choice to have it nor what it will or wont do to how I look. No, I dont have HIV or cancer. (For those minds that were headed that way).

That being said, I dont lay out the offering plate to those whom I know cannot, or choose not to understand. Ive even tried to explain this to those of higher education, and they cant comprehend it. Noone at work knows me at a personal level, or rather "that" personal, and they dont need to. If I cant work, I cant eat, so I choose to keep it away from work.

My advice: Whether or not to be "out" is your decision, but take your time, understand those whom youre about to tell, and I think caution is the watchword. Good luck to you!;)

[Robinium]

It still remains optional....:)

It's annoying for the partner over time, having to hide yourself, lying to other people, you know?

So at least for me, it's not an option then - in my private life. However, at workplace I have always followed a different policy and was not out as any of the things I might be out with.

By the way, I am happy that our gay etc. scenes here usually keep their mouths shut about celebrities and don't out them to people outside of the LGBT scenes. Our Foreign Minister, Mr. Guido Westerwelle, for example came out as being gay only three or four years ago. But I had heard it through the gay grapevine 15 years ago, he frequented gay clubs. And I didn't even live near where he lived. When he came out, my parents were like: "Have you heard about Westerwelle?" And I said: "Yes of course, I've known it for about 10 years." "??????" I told them why. They asked me why I had never told them. I said it's a question of honor to keep your mouth shut and not tell outsiders.

[darkeyes]

It's annoying for the partner over time, having to hide yourself, lying to other people, you know?



Yes its annoying for both parties.. but sometimes people feel it necessary.. if the "out" partner thinks enough of the one who is not, then she or he will respect that. But you're right..it does bring pressures to bear on a relationship which can make or break it and is unfair to both.. but life unfortunately isn't fair...

[void()]

Ewwwww!!!! You like asparagus? What the hell is wrong with you, man! You need professional help. :bigrin:

Ha! Fooled you buddy! I was getting professional help. The therapist today advised I can go down to medicine only. He granted me 30 days before closing out my case, in the off chance I do need an ear. I can't eat broccoli, though, with or without help. It tears me up pretty bad. We should really be after the broccoli eaters, they're all freaks, totally demented inbred mutant lunatics they are! :lol:

"its not a fair world..... it never will be...... "

That is exactly why it is fair. Think about it like this, what other world are you comparing it to? Your own ideal world? Sorry, I got one of those as well, every Joe Blow and Mary Jane does. Not all of these are mutually inclusive of one another. That doesn't mean what Joe thinks is unfair is fair to you or conversely, the inverse.

This is the same argument about the world being perfect. You silly fools all make me laugh. The world is perfect, even with its imperfections. Without dark, no light. So you really need to back up with saying it's not fair, honey. Who says? Oh really, they've left you as a god now, I see? C'mon pull me out a fair world then? All you need is opening your eyes. Analogy destroys and creates it all. Careful its blade is dual and wicked sharp.

Sorry, I just get tired of the whole victim mentality in the statement of the world not being ... what the f$c& ever for who the f*@k ever at their discretion. Get over it. It what it is, already. "Just fucking live and let live!"

[elian]

I wish *I* could've gone to the world's fair.

And for the record, you don't have to be OUT unless you want to be OUT or someone else can't keep their mouth shut.

Reminds me of that time someone wrote an editorial in the paper saying he accepted gays already and didn't understand why they needed a pride parade to flamboyantly rub it in everyone's face.

I can kind of understand that, but I also know that there are many thousands of LGBT teens who commit suicide because they are isolated and told every negative thing about a part of their self-image that is very much a part of who they are.

[elian]

The worst time of the year for me as far as preference is concerned are Valentine's Day and Christmas time - basically because it's OK for a young lady and a gentleman to hold hands or kiss in public - but not two men or two ladies.

Of course a year or two ago when it was 60F degrees on Valentine's Day I walked over and held up a sign at the courthouse asking for same-sex marriage/civil union rights - being in a group of people who stand for equal rights that day helped me feel better about it.

[tristancir]

The worst time of the year for me as far as preference is concerned are Valentine's Day and Christmas time - basically because it's OK for a young lady and a gentleman to hold hands or kiss in public - but not two men or two ladies.

Of course a year or two ago when it was 60F degrees on Valentine's Day I walked over and held up a sign at the courthouse asking for same-sex marriage/civil union rights - being in a group of people who stand for equal rights that day helped me feel better about it.

I'm not sure where you live. I don't see why you can't hold hands in public and kiss with a same sex partner. Depends on where you are I guess.

[darkeyes]

The worst time of the year for me as far as preference is concerned are Valentine's Day and Christmas time - basically because it's OK for a young lady and a gentleman to hold hands or kiss in public - but not two men or two ladies.

Of course a year or two ago when it was 60F degrees on Valentine's Day I walked over and held up a sign at the courthouse asking for same-sex marriage/civil union rights - being in a group of people who stand for equal rights that day helped me feel better about it.

It is more common to see women going around holding hands here Elian, but it is becoming a little less rare to see guys doing it than it was not so long back.. depends where you are at the time.. wouldnt walk through some of the housing schemes here holding hands or smooching if I was you hun.. Val's day or Xmas? Or New Year for that matter.. I'm not sure that many people turn an eye any longer at women snoggin under the mistletoe, or snoggin peeps at Happy New Year.. sookin tongue is a time honoured way to wish someone a Happy New Year at the bells at the city Hogmanay Party.. and Fran does it with relish..:bigrin: with Kate first of all... but then me m8's... an then whoeva is round us at the time... long as they r not mingin', an' not 2sozzed out a ther skull :tong:

..an yes Elian.. even now, at New Year time Fran dus hav lil snog in propa sense of the word with a lesser mortal or 2 at the bells... shockin'...:eek:

[void()]

The worst time of the year for me as far as preference is concerned are Valentine's Day and Christmas time - basically because it's OK for a young lady and a gentleman to hold hands or kiss in public - but not two men or two ladies.

Of course a year or two ago when it was 60F degrees on Valentine's Day I walked over and held up a sign at the courthouse asking for same-sex marriage/civil union rights - being in a group of people who stand for equal rights that day helped me feel better about it.

You might get surprised baby. Never do know when I might find a pair of old grungy Doc Martins laying around, decide to just say fuck 'em all. Take you and C out to one of our fine eating places here and lavish over you both, then dare anyone to step up. Or just go for a stroll on main street with you in my arms. Let 'em bring their flaming crosses, I'll give them hell. Getting really tired of bullshit on top of bullshit. It's fucking 2010, we got running water and plumbing, even.

"Life is the grandest form of a cosmic joke. Then you've all the Bozos telling you not to laugh, it's serious business. Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke. Guess it's egg on their faces when they realize none of us get out alive!"

[mikey3000]

THAT'S IT!!! THANK YOU!!!

I nearly forgot what "the cause " is. Acceptance, not tolerance. Equal access to happiness. Being allowed to have the freedom to love whom you choose and not being stigmatized for that choice, let alone dying or being murdered because of it. That sounds like a pretty decent cause, no?

And as for pride events, people forget that originally it was a celebration put on by the LGBTQ community for the LGBTQ community, not straights. If they don't like it, don't go. If they do like it, then they are welcome. Simple really.

[slipnslide]

THAT'S IT!!! THANK YOU!!!

I nearly forgot what "the cause " is. Acceptance, not tolerance. Equal access to happiness. Being allowed to have the freedom to love whom you choose and not being stigmatized for that choice, let alone dying or being murdered because of it. That sounds like a pretty decent cause, no?

And as for pride events, people forget that originally it was a celebration put on by the LGBTQ community for the LGBTQ community, not straights. If they don't like it, don't go. If they do like it, then they are welcome. Simple really.

Sounds like too much effort for too little payback to me. Not everything has to be me vs. society. I'm all about letting other people do the heavy lifting. You're never going to get the older generation to accept it, the younger generation already does for the most part. Inertia will have more effect than I would. It's going to be a couple generations from now that are free to be bi or gay. Until then, just get used to the fact that it's not cool with a lot of people. Reading Getting Bi I came across a statement that hit me like a wall. Being bi means having a choice. You can choose to live a hetero lifestyle if you want. The more I think about it the more that choice makes sense to me. I live in a world that isn't cool with bisexuality. I can expose myself to misery and contempt, or find a girlfriend and live in a much happier place.

Not to mention that the gf would be far less likely to pass an STD on to me from what I've been reading in health units data about infection rates in the gay/bi community. What is up with these guys? Taking so many risks with unprotected sex? The health unit data I saw said that gay/bi guys are showing infection rates for bacterial STIs that are 40-50x the heterosexual population. No wonder so many have a negative view of this community.

I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but sometimes even I get so caught up in my bisexuality that I forget where the centre is. . .

[elian]

Sounds like too much effort for too little payback to me. Not everything has to be me vs. society. I'm all about letting other people do the heavy lifting. You're never going to get the older generation to accept it, the younger generation already does for the most part. Inertia will have more effect than I would. It's going to be a couple generations from now that are free to be bi or gay. Until then, just get used to the fact that it's not cool with a lot of people. Reading Getting Bi I came across a statement that hit me like a wall. Being bi means having a choice. You can choose to live a hetero lifestyle if you want. The more I think about it the more that choice makes sense to me. I live in a world that isn't cool with bisexuality. I can expose myself to misery and contempt, or find a girlfriend and live in a much happier place.

Not to mention that the gf would be far less likely to pass an STD on to me from what I've been reading in health units data about infection rates in the gay/bi community. What is up with these guys? Taking so many risks with unprotected sex? The health unit data I saw said that gay/bi guys are showing infection rates for bacterial STIs that are 40-50x the heterosexual population. No wonder so many have a negative view of this community.

I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but sometimes even I get so caught up in my bisexuality that I forget where the centre is. . .

When I think about it we now have a lot more freedom than in the past 50-100 years - change happens slowly - it's more like a pendulum then a straight line.

High infection rates? I've always found it sort of peculiar that society holds up women and expects them to be chaste but gives men permission to screw anything with two legs and a vagina. Men who don't care for vagina are forced to get their "romantic encounters" out of bathrooms, truck stops, sex theaters, etc. And do they use condoms? <sighs>

At least here in the US sex is still a dirty word in a lot of places, and "gay" sex? You don't even SPEAK those words. We act like little schoolchildren- which is REALLY stupid - "Oh my God - it's a Penis!" - As if no one has ever seen one of THOSE before. But what should i expect when the so called "national religion" has a fifth grade understanding of God..

This society pretends to be all prim and proper but in a lot of ways, in a lot of places we are still soo immature..

[mikey3000]

Sounds like too much effort for too little payback to me. Not everything has to be me vs. society. I'm all about letting other people do the heavy lifting. You're never going to get the older generation to accept it, the younger generation already does for the most part. Inertia will have more effect than I would. It's going to be a couple generations from now that are free to be bi or gay. Until then, just get used to the fact that it's not cool with a lot of people. Reading Getting Bi I came across a statement that hit me like a wall. Being bi means having a choice. You can choose to live a hetero lifestyle if you want. The more I think about it the more that choice makes sense to me. I live in a world that isn't cool with bisexuality. I can expose myself to misery and contempt, or find a girlfriend and live in a much happier place.

Not to mention that the gf would be far less likely to pass an STD on to me from what I've been reading in health units data about infection rates in the gay/bi community. What is up with these guys? Taking so many risks with unprotected sex? The health unit data I saw said that gay/bi guys are showing infection rates for bacterial STIs that are 40-50x the heterosexual population. No wonder so many have a negative view of this community.

I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but sometimes even I get so caught up in my bisexuality that I forget where the centre is. . .

Yeah, it soulds like you'd be better off taking the straight route. Much less work for you. So, go lie to yourself, lie to a girl and your family and friends for the next 30 years. See ya back here then. And guess what? it'll be much harder for you then then it is now. Trust me, I know.

Dude, you live in Ottawa, Ontario, one of the most progressive places on the planet for human rights. Fuck! You even got federal cabinet ministers marrying their gay lovers legally, yet it's still too much work for you?

Yeah, take the straight road pal, much easier for you. Doesn't sound like you wanna be happy anyway.

[slipnslide]

Yeah, it soulds like you'd be better off taking the straight route. Much less work for you. So, go lie to yourself, lie to a girl and your family and friends for the next 30 years. See ya back here then. And guess what? it'll be much harder for you then then it is now. Trust me, I know.

Dude, you live in Ottawa, Ontario, one of the most progressive places on the planet for human rights. Fuck! You even got federal cabinet ministers marrying their gay lovers legally, yet it's still too much work for you?

Yeah, take the straight road pal, much easier for you. Doesn't sound like you wanna be happy anyway.

It's not a lie though. I'm genuinely attracted to women. When I'm in a hetero relationship I'm completely satisfied with the sexual side of it. I don't need to have sex with men and women. My bisexuality manifests itself as an attraction to both sexes, but not a need to have sex with both.

I'm taking time now that I'm single to explore this side of me. Never in my adult life have I been single long enough to figure it out. I gotta say, I don't care too much for it so far. It's been a lot of promiscuous guys offering me a blowjob before they even know my name. There's an ugly underground seediness to it - from which the stigmas emanate. The kind of women I date aren't like that. There's usually a few dates before it turns physical. There's something nice about that. When I asked gay guys about it, they readily admit that this is how their world works.

Contrasting these two worlds, heteronormative vs. bi-insanity, why would I want to choose the higher risk stigmatized world over one that isn't? Especially given that being with a guy isn't going to make me any happier than the alternative in the long haul.

[slipnslide]

That's not true that your GF would somehow be far less likely to pass an STD or HIV onto you if she had an STD or HIV.

Read up on safer sex, HIV, and STDs and you'll learn that everyone is at risk for them.

It sounds like you are making excuses on why you want to stay in the closet.

If you want to stay in the closet and pretend that you're "straight" and get a girlfriend who knows nothing about your sexuality that is your choice since it is your life but you're just lying to yourself and those that you love.

Not all people who are older are against being out about their sexuality.

I know gay and bisexual men who are in their 60s and they are out about their sexuality.

It's extensive reading and research over the past few months that gave me the HIV and STI background. (medhelp.org is great btw) The single hetero woman is less likely to pass an infection to me because she's statistically less likely to have one. I'm not talking transmission likelihood, I mean the likelihood of there being anything to pass on.

I'll happily tell the next gf of my sexuality. That's not a problem.

It comes down to still being attracted to women and wanting a life with kids. Far easier in a hetero life.

[slipnslide]

Do more research. Actually go to see medical professionals at HIV/STD testing clinics and ask them questions and ask doctors questions and don't rely on what you read on quack sites like medhelp.

Try telling all of the women and men who got HIV or other STDs from heterosexual sexual partners that they are not at risk or are at less for HIV or other STDs at all since you dangerously believe that straight people are somehow less likely to have, get, or transmit HIV and other STDs. :rolleyes:

Nobody says you have to get married or have a girlfriend to have kids. You wrote how you're from an older generation so why have children now if you're very old?

Do you even want a wife and kids or do you just want to stay closeted and pretend that you're "straight"?

I never said I was from an older generation.

MedHelp.org is a fantastic resource providing users with answers from internationally known infectious disease experts. Just because you don't like what they say, that doesn't make it a "quack site"

I'm already a few steps ahead of you. I did speak with a medical professional at my local sexual health clinic. In fact, I failed to mention that she advised that if I was going to be sexually active with men that I should additionally obtain a hepatitis vaccination. However, this was unnecessary if I was only having sex with women.

One piece of information that got me started researching further was this from the AIDS Committee of Toronto:

"We've seen a dramatic increase in infectious syphilis over the past seven years in Toronto. Today the number of new syphilis cases is ten times higher than in 2002.

Most (95%) of these cases of infectious syphilis have been among men. Over 80% of these have been among gay and bisexual men."

http://www.actoronto.org/syphilis

So ~10% of the population is responsible for 80% of syphilis infections in Toronto. In 2010 nonetheless. This isn't 17th century Europe.

This syphilis trend repeated across North America as I looked at further data.

I'll find the source if you really want it, but health professionals were expressing concern that whereas STIs among gay/bi men had dropped off significantly post-AIDS arriving on the scene, that trend had reversed and it was increasing dramatically again. Apparently the younger guys who weren't sexually active in the 80s are taking risks.

Locally to me, "Sometimes there will be a line already forming at the clinic door before it opens.

The most common client is between 15 and 29 years old, although nurses are seeing more men in their 30s and 40s with symptoms of syphilis."

http://www.torontosun.com/life/healthandfitness/2010/08/13/15012091.html

Note that they highlight that it's MEN in their 30s and 40s. Syphilis gets highlighted because it's so bizarre to see it returning with such strength, but the activities passing it along, are passing other infections too right?

Chatting with local gay guys they tell me that unprotected, or bare back, sex is quite popular in random hookups. Worse, they express little concern at the risks.

So criticize me all you want, I can take it. However, those are the facts. Gay and bi guys are taking unnecessary risks, STD infection rates in their communities is escalating rapidly, and their answer is denial and somehow deflect to the heteros.

[slipnslide]

Slipnslide you think that straight women and men don't have HIV, herpes, HPV, or Syphilis and spread these STDs around to each other?

In fact I just showed you that they do so I'm not sure why you're asking. My point is that it's at a rate 1/40th of the gay/bi population.

[mikey3000]

Actually, all I think you showed us is that straights have much less sex that us.:bigrin: