transsexuals and words

[transcendMental]

I just did a little experiment.

In these forums, people have used the words "tranny" and "shemale" to refer to transsexuals or to transgender people. When transsexuals on the site complain that these words are offensive or inappropriate, akin to using "bitch", "slut", or "whore" to refer to a woman, we're told we're being too sensitive or PC or whatever.

I wanted to check my PC bearings, so I Googled the four words "transsexual", "transgender", "tranny", and "shemale", and looked at what came up on the first page of results. The outcome is worth considering.

For both "transsexual" and "transgender", the whole first page of results was full of technical information about transsexualism, or about transgender people.

For "tranny", the first link on the first page was technical, but the 2nd link, and the majority of links on that first page were for pornography.

For "shemale", every single link on the first page of results was for porn. You don't get that much pornography if you Google "bitch", "slut", or "whore".

Considering that Google is a pretty shrewd judge of how people associate words, I would say that we're not being overly sensitive or PC. If we are, then women who take offense at being called bitches, sluts, or whores are definitely out of line. ;)

[Long Duck Dong]

I just did a little experiment.

In these forums, people have used the words "tranny" and "shemale" to refer to transsexuals or to transgender people. When transsexuals on the site complain that these words are offensive or inappropriate, akin to using "bitch", "slut", or "whore" to refer to a woman, we're told we're being too sensitive or PC or whatever.

I wanted to check my PC bearings, so I Googled the four words "transsexual", "transgender", "tranny", and "shemale", and looked at what came up on the first page of results. The outcome is worth considering.

For both "transsexual" and "transgender", the whole first page of results was full of technical information about transsexualism, or about transgender people.

For "tranny", the first link on the first page was technical, but the 2nd link, and the majority of links on that first page were for pornography.

For "shemale", every single link on the first page of results was for porn. You don't get that much pornography if you Google "bitch", "slut", or "whore".

Considering that Google is a pretty shrewd judge of how people associate words, I would say that we're not being overly sensitive or PC. If we are, then women who take offense at being called bitches, sluts, or whores are definitely out of line. ;)

the ability to be offended far exceeds the ability to offend......

I have been shot down in flames in this site for refering to my friends as the tranny grannies.....and how its offensive to trans people...... never mind the fact its the term my trans friends refer to themselves as.....

I then got told that my friends must have low self esteem and no respect for themselves if they use a name like that.....

so that pretty much ended my support for trans or trans related issues in this site.....and i stated as much.......

if trans want to be offended at every lil thing... that is their choice..... but if you look thru the forum over th last 4 years, you will see a big shift in trans related topics, from the discussing of relationships with trans and trans related issues within the lgbt community.... to just I wanna fuck shemales and *woe are the trans *.....

that is the price that has been paid by the trans community in the site..... people tried not to be offensive, when refering to trans aspects, such as trans gender / trans sexuals, she males, etc etc..... but it have been made very clear to people in the site, you may not refer to some trans people by the terms they themselves use......

so.... it is getting to the point that a lot of pro trans / trans supporters / she male lovers simply avoid any trans related threads or just ignore the trans in the site......

I really feel for the trans people that are not taking offensive at everything and every lil issue, as many people will not talk to them in the forums now, for fear of being drawn and quartered for not trying to be offensive

[Robinium]

the ability to be offended far exceeds the ability to offend......

I have been shot down in flames in this site for refering to my friends as the tranny grannies.....and how its offensive to trans people...... never mind the fact its the term my trans friends refer to themselves as.....

I then got told that my friends must have low self esteem and no respect for themselves if they use a name like that.....

"Tranny" is a word a bit like "nigger", or, in Germany, "Schwuchtel" for a gay guy. Some members of the community use it for themselves jokingly and then it's not meant as a slur, but if someone else uses it, it's considered a slur. I think you would not call anyone here "nigger" just because some black rap singers use the word in their songs...

Edit: wow, I was curious to see if "nigger" gets filtered out by the forum software. It passes. Gonna try this with other slurs some day :-D

[Long Duck Dong]

"Tranny" is a word a bit like "nigger", or, in Germany, "Schwuchtel" for a gay guy. Some members of the community use it for themselves jokingly and then it's not meant as a slur, but if someone else uses it, it's considered a slur. I think you would not call anyone here "nigger" just because some black rap singers use the word in their songs...

Edit: wow, I was curious to see if "nigger" gets filtered out by the forum software. It passes. Gonna try this with other slurs some day :-D

I am aware of that....... but we live in a day and age of us getting offended by remarks or labels not aimed at us, and we take it as a personal insult or as offensive cos we have a issue with it.....

the unfortunate part about it, is while people may play the * educate others * card.... what is happening is that the terms of speech are being dictated by others...... what does amuse me, is many of the people that do it, are us citizens, the land of * free speech *

I have always been a person that is curious about the difference between the people that see a label or remark and take it personally and get offended by it, then tell others what they may or may not say, but flip their lids over infringement of their own rights to freedom of expression..... and the people that will shrug and say, yes it can be offensive but is it worth getting offended by a remark or label not directed at me......

[tenni]

Hi transcendMental

I think that you raise an interesting and a valid conflict. Now, as I understand this issue, we are really discussing a difference between bisexual csimales and people who are experiencing gender issues.

From my perspective, the term "shemale" is a term used primarily by csimale bisexuals and is porn sexual fantasy related. Now, in a slightly broader sense it is a term used by csimen perhaps both hetero and bi. I am inclined to think that hetero csimen may not have any fantasy about "shemales" but I really don't know or have any evidence other than my suspicions. At any rate, it is probably not a fantasy that csimen would discuss with their hetero buddies. It may be a sexual fantasy by csimen who are just beginning to explore their bisexuality but I suspect that some keep the fantasy. I know of only a few bisexual csimen who have actually been with people that they called "shemale" rather than transexual. I know that is what they referred to them as and nothing else. These csimen want a functioning penis and tits together in one person. From what transexual females write this is not them.

"Transexual" is a more scientific based term. As I understand it, this word is more acceptable and less offensive than the word "hermaphrodite" to those people who actually are dealing with gender. "Shemale" is a word used by men who are more than not csimales with an interest in bisexuality and no interest in gender issues. They identify with their birth gender.

Generally, I would agree with you that I prefer to use a term for a group that the group itself prefers.
From what you and Marie write as well as a few others, the term "shemale" is offensive to you. So, I see the conflict as existing between csimale bisexuals and their sexual fantasy versus your identity issues. I'm a bit torn and would prefer to align myself with transexuals who do not want the term "shemale" used. On the other hand, I also want to respect my fellow csimale bisexuals who enjoy a sexual fantasy of wanting both male and female sexual organs within one person. (This is not me personally though as I do not have this sexual fantasy or reality desire at all)

I see this as primarily a site for bisexuals and not transgendered people though. I know that some have the mantra that all are welcome etc. but in reality I would go with that this site is for bisexuals and not gender issues. In other words, csimen should be able to discuss their sexual fantasy of a "shemale" just as they are permitted to discuss any other sexual fantasy.

It confuses me a bit more though when I read that some are writing about fantasizing about actually being the opposite gender and see themselves as bisexuals. Now, from the one thread recently this is from a male bisexual who wonders if others actually fantasize about being female. (This is not me nor do I identify as a csibisexual man with such a fantasy)

I also do not see or understand the transexuals' perspective who state that they are bisexual. I do not read enough about how csimales are similar or different from say a transexualman who sees himself as bisexual. I just do not read almost anything about what I consider bisexual issues from transexuals. What I read about is gender issues and not bisexual issues. We (csimales) seem to be different. Our sexual fantasies may be different. I don't know as I do not read from bisexual transgendered people enough about their actual bisexual issues or sexual fantasies. I read gender issues. I think that we may be rather different "fish"...lol but I'm just wondering.

So, should csimen who have sexual fantasies about "shemales" not be permitted to discuss them because they may offend non csi people on a bisexual site? I really do not know but it does seem like a form of censorship request to be placed on csimale bisexuality discussions. "Shemale" has been proven by you to be a sexual fantasy by primarily csibisexual males and perhaps not really connected to "true" transexuals.

[darkeyes]

Sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me..

..but they do don't they.. hurt many people.. especially names which are used by so called responsible adults to inflict pain on those they may hate or have just decided to give a hard time.. and like children, those responsible adults once having found the weak spot carry on until things get out of hand.. often with tragic results.. whether or not the names are in any way accurate or even aimed at us..

[Robinium]

I think the most sensible approach would be to use "shemale" for the porn + maybe sexual phantasies, and "transsexual" for the other topics.

Otherwise I'm also surprised about the lots of transsexual topics being posted on this forum as depending on the subject, it's somewhat off-topic. I don't open such threads (or rarely) but just can't resist to write in them once they pop up.

[DuckiesDarling]

Sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me..

..but they do don't they.. hurt many people.. especially names which are used by so called responsible adults to inflict pain on those they may hate or have just decided to give a hard time.. and like children, those responsible adults once having found the weak spot carry on until things get out of hand.. often with tragic results.. whether or not the names are in any way accurate or even aimed at us..

You mean like "lesser mortals"?

[DuckiesDarling]

I just did a little experiment.

In these forums, people have used the words "tranny" and "shemale" to refer to transsexuals or to transgender people. When transsexuals on the site complain that these words are offensive or inappropriate, akin to using "bitch", "slut", or "whore" to refer to a woman, we're told we're being too sensitive or PC or whatever.

I wanted to check my PC bearings, so I Googled the four words "transsexual", "transgender", "tranny", and "shemale", and looked at what came up on the first page of results. The outcome is worth considering.

For both "transsexual" and "transgender", the whole first page of results was full of technical information about transsexualism, or about transgender people.

For "tranny", the first link on the first page was technical, but the 2nd link, and the majority of links on that first page were for pornography.

For "shemale", every single link on the first page of results was for porn. You don't get that much pornography if you Google "bitch", "slut", or "whore".

Considering that Google is a pretty shrewd judge of how people associate words, I would say that we're not being overly sensitive or PC. If we are, then women who take offense at being called bitches, sluts, or whores are definitely out of line. ;)


Interesting post, but in the most part people that have posted on here regarding "shemales" were posting about them as part of a porn that sparked a fantasy.

I don't think anyone means any disrespect but trying to be PC in such a non PC world is difficult at best, impossible at the worst. It doesn't matter what you say or what you refer to it as, I can guarantee the simple fact of saying something will offend someone somewhere. :2cents:

[Robinium]

I can guarantee the simple fact of saying something will offend someone somewhere. :2cents:

What you are saying here is offensive to me! :bigrin:

[DuckiesDarling]

What you are saying here is offensive to me! :bigrin:

Hands you the paddle, go for it :tongue:

[tenni]

"Words" and csimen

I personally love the term "lesser mortals" but only because darkeyes uses it in a non offensive manner to me. I think that it is hilarious in the context that she uses it. I think that she may have used it in reference to her previous past sexual encounters with "we" csimen. It didn't really come across as derrogatory to csimen but that may be due to her writing style.


If another woman (or darkeyes) used it in a degrading manner I would be screaming loudly about the term. I will admit that I wondered about the word and if I should be offended the first time that I read it used by her. Actually, if I recall clearly enough, I wasn't sure if it referred to csimen or who it referred to..lol I had never heard it before and so her context and writing style made it seem funny to me.

The word "shemale" however is not being used in a humourous manner. It is a definite strong sexual fantasy word for some csimen and offensive to transgendered women perhaps because of their gender issues and it may have been used in a derogatory manner to refer to them at one time.

btw The word "bitch" is a word that some submissive csimen like used on them during m2m sex...lol So, it is all within the context as to how words are used. Perhaps transexuals need to "lighten up" when they read a csiman discuss the word "shemale" in a sexual fantasy manner? I can see that as a difficult request though if you have been hurt by the use of such words in the past.

[void()]

"It doesn't matter what you say or what you refer to it as, I can guarantee the simple fact of saying something will offend someone somewhere."

Very true. I had a similar discussion about writing fiction based on factual events. One of the concerns I harbored was part of the factual events involved a reasonably educated, respectable, well grounded guy wind up committing suicide in a West Virginia motel room, not one or two ways but six or more.

He was found in the tub, wrists slit, ligature around his throat, plastic bag over his head, a toxicology screen off the charts, several bottles of potent wine emptied, an electric radio in the tub and plugged in, a gun recently fired and wounds from that in his head but only his prints on the gun.

This event was because he was writing an exploration on some things certain parties were doing regarding software called PROMIS. And I had thought about creating some fiction about it. Well, imagine the fear, the not wanting to offend anyone.

A writer friend said, "go for it honey, no matter how much you sanitize it, someone will be offended, fuck 'em if they can't take a joke." I never did get around to pulling out anything from it but still may

[MarieDelta]

So basically, transwomen arent welcome here.

Thanks, so sorry for intruding on your space.

[tenni]

Marie
Please do not be an extremist. Transwomen are welcome here but this site is primarily about bisexuality and not about transexuality or monosexuality (hetero or gay).

If transwomen are bisexual, I'm sure that your situation is difficult but I do not read any of your thoughts on your bisexuality. I read most threads that you start as about being a transexual person with nar a mention of trans bisexuality.

[Robinium]

Marie
Please do not be an extremist. Transwomen are welcome here but this site is primarily about bisexuality and not about transexuality or monosexuality (hetero or gay).

If transwomen are bisexual, I'm sure that your situation is difficult but I do not read any of your thoughts on your bisexuality. I read most threads that you start as about being a transexual person with nar a mention of trans bisexuality.

Agree.

[diB4u]

i think you might find that everyone is welcome here bisexual, straight, gay, male, female and transgenders alike.

I find it interesting to hear and read other peoples point of views other than whos sucking what size cock etc... sometimes THAT gets real boring pretty quickly.



:bigrin:

[darkeyes]

You mean like "lesser mortals"?

..even them, Darling darling..:)

[MarieDelta]

Marie
Please do not be an extremist. Transwomen are welcome here but this site is primarily about bisexuality and not about transexuality or monosexuality (hetero or gay).

If transwomen are bisexual, I'm sure that your situation is difficult but I do not read any of your thoughts on your bisexuality. I read most threads that you start as about being a transexual person with nar a mention of trans bisexuality.

Asking for some respect = extreme, gotcha

[cgloren]

Humans are curious beings. Words, once spoken can wound and can't be retracted no matter how hard we try. Odd that in one context they are ugly and in another affirming. I think the N-word is ugly no matter what the context is. However, that is only my opinion...I've had it requested during sex as "pillow talk"....OMG! was that hard to do!
"Bitches" on the other hand brought a smile to my face when a TS girl said it in a ladies' restroom to me and the others in there. The usage "You bitches make way, I gotta pee!" It was kind of affirming and fun considering the source.
Shemale and tranny are and will always be low class sex terms. Anyone with some self respect in spite of having G.I.D. will find them offensive. Which is not to say there are not some low class sex workers who would find them as affirming as having "business cards"
Humans are curious indeed.
Loren

[Robinium]

I think the N-word is ugly no matter what the context is. However, that is only my opinion...I've had it requested during sex as "pillow talk"....OMG! was that hard to do!

:eek: I don't know if I could do that either...

[darkeyes]

Marie
Please do not be an extremist. Transwomen are welcome here but this site is primarily about bisexuality and not about transexuality or monosexuality (hetero or gay).

If transwomen are bisexual, I'm sure that your situation is difficult but I do not read any of your thoughts on your bisexuality. I read most threads that you start as about being a transexual person with nar a mention of trans bisexuality.

Marie an extremist? *giggles*.. Trollop...u notty person u... :eek:

That'll b the day.. many transexuals are as bisexual as other members of this site Tenni.. TG issues are often overlooked when it comes to the LGBT movement and it is right that Marie as a transwoman is able to draw to our attention the cares and concerns as well as the issues of transpeople.. as you and I are often concerned with the issues of the wider world, as is Marie as it happens, and we post about such issues which we care about and sound to some as extreme, and we get asked what these issues have to do with bisexuality or homosexuality, Marie posts, as is her right, on concerns which all too many of us seem not to care about..

[Realist]

Void Dweller said,

"It doesn't matter what you say or what you refer to it as, I can guarantee the simple fact of saying something will offend someone somewhere."

That's true, some people wear their feelings on their sleeves and it seems that it takes almost nothing to create their ire.

Others seem to let any insult, or slander, roll off them, like they're covered with silicone.

I think it would do us all some good to be polite and considerate of others, especially when we know something we say can hurt others.

As one who grew up in the Southern US, of the '40s and '50s, I was accustom to hearing racial slurs, unproven accusations, and hateful statements about those different than ourselves. Both of my parents were vehemently prejudiced.

I don't know how I became to feel differently; but early on, I began to accept each person on their own merits. I've known wonderful people of all races, as well as some of the worst people of all races. No one has the corner on good, or bad.

I've also learned that respect earns respect..........usually.

So, if we say things that cause others pain, or discomfort, the decent thing to do is stop saying it!

[H0wardmoon]

"If transwomen are bisexual, I'm sure that your situation is difficult but I do not read any of your thoughts on your bisexuality. I read most threads that you start as about being a transexual person with nar a mention of trans bisexuality."

Many of my threads are about being a virgin and shy. I guess I should be out of here, too.

Actually, the majority of what I talk about is really stupid crap. But there's no rule against that.

As for what what to call people, how about their preferred gender?

I was lucky in that I knew a person who was transitioning when I was in college, and she was a genuinely nice person. I actually didn't know until many years later that she was transgender, so I had the luxury of getting to know her before I knew her gender. Life's funny that way.

Look, bi people get enough crap from both the str8 and gay community, we don't need to turn on others.

[tenni]

Howard and others

Look the thread was started over the term "shemale". Marie and others are offended by the word and some csimen bisexuals fantasize about the exact thing that transwomen are offended by. What is your priority here? Maybe posters have no priority (and I'd rather not but tend to support the underdog here as far as politically correct vs csimen). I think that csi biguys should be able to post about their sexual fantasy regardless whether it offends a transwoman or not. As far as virgin bi people are concerned well that is what this site is about..bisexuality.

I know that I'm being politically correct rude but really now. If a transwoman is offended by a csibiguy's fantasy then maybe this is not the site for her or she should just skip over the thread. Transwomen are welcome to post ten thousand threads about being trans if that is what they want to do but expect a reaction from some ...even though most will be polite and not respond other than humble acceptance. We are mainly bisexuals who come here about our bisexuality and not gender issues. As some csibiguy posted, he doesn't open such threads. However, it does look like being a transexual is more important to Marie than her bisexuality. She may remain quiet about her bisexuality if she choses but creates a gender political action mantra about herself on the threads as is also her choice.

darkeyes
Yes, Marie is being rather extremist in my opinion on this issue. She wants csimen to stop referring to their porn fantasy by the term that probably turns them on. Think about the porn term and it idealizes what some csibiguys want..whether it is reality or not. I will defend the right of a csibiguy to post his shemale sexual fantasy on a bisexual website over a transwoman who is politically active over her gender issue.

[H0wardmoon]

It's about respect, and "shemale" is a fairly disrespectful word.

But your use of the word "priorities" suggest there is a hierarchy. So do str8 spouses of bi people have less of a standing here? Where do you draw the line, and more importantly who draws it? Only a person with a perfect Kinsey 4?

[Wrenn]

Would some one please educate me? What is a csimen? I've googled the term and nothing comes up. I did come across cismen though which seems to go along with the topic of this thread.

[darkeyes]

Howard and others

Look the thread was started over the term "shemale". Marie and others are offended by the word and some csimen bisexuals fantasize about the exact thing that transwomen are offended by. What is your priority here? Maybe posters have no priority (and I'd rather not but tend to support the underdog here as far as politically correct vs csimen). I think that csi biguys should be able to post about their sexual fantasy regardless whether it offends a transwoman or not. As far as virgin bi people are concerned well that is what this site is about..bisexuality.

I know that I'm being politically correct rude but really now. If a transwoman is offended by a csibiguy's fantasy then maybe this is not the site for her or she should just skip over the thread. Transwomen are welcome to post ten thousand threads about being trans if that is what they want to do but expect a reaction from some ...even though most will be polite and not respond other than humble acceptance. We are mainly bisexuals who come here about our bisexuality and not gender issues. As some csibiguy posted, he doesn't open such threads. However, it does look like being a transexual is more important to Marie than her bisexuality. She may remain quiet about her bisexuality if she choses but creates a gender political action mantra about herself on the threads as is also her choice.

darkeyes
Yes, Marie is being rather extremist in my opinion on this issue. She wants csimen to stop referring to their porn fantasy by the term that probably turns them on. Think about the porn term and it idealizes what some csibiguys want..whether it is reality or not. I will defend the right of a csibiguy to post his shemale sexual fantasy on a bisexual website over a transwoman who is politically active over her gender issue.

So you defend those who seem to have little or no respect for Transpeople? You agree that we can refer to human beings by terms which are unpleasant to most? Its ok Tenni in one sense.. in theory at least we live in free societies where freedom of expression exists.. yet with freedom of expression goes responsibility not to offend where possible.. most transpeeps consider the expressions shemale and tranny as offensive.. that isn't an extreme position.. treating people with respect and good manners is not an extreme position.. last Saturday night a band of guys gave Kate and I some hassle and called us "rug-munchers".. and it was meant to offend... I have been called it before and it isn't something that I freak about particularly, but their bad manners earned them a good bollocking for their trouble, as well as a warning from the pub manager as to their language and conduct for the rest of the evening....... but it does offend many greatly and is a derogatory remark in the same way as a gay guys normally consider the expressions "shirt lifter" or "bum bandit" offensive.. many are offended by such remarks and expecting good manners and consideration for the feelings of other people can hardly be called extreme.. how people refer to others in the privacy of their own home and among like minded people is their concern.. how they refer to them in public, or in a forum for the world to see and where sensitivities can be at a premium is quite another matter...

..and I will turn things around from something you said generally... being offended by terminology which is in itself offensive to so many does not mean this is not the site for Marie and others.. continually using such terminology when we know that there are people who are offended by the use of such words in reference to them and their kind, really means that it is questionable whether by their repeated rudeness, and rejection of the sensitivities of others, they are worthy of this site... the extreme position Tenni dear, is not that of Marie or any other person offended by the use of the terms in question.. it is the impolite and bloody insulting lack of consideration which those who do repeatedly offend, show toward other people..

[Hephaestion]

Would some one please educate me? What is a csimen? I've googled the term and nothing comes up. I did come across cismen though which seems to go along with the topic of this thread.

its a typing mistake for Cis which in gender studies means 'comfortable with' ; 'identifies with'.

We all type badly. Since injuring my wrist I find that I transpose letters and lose placement information on what the side is doing (proprioreceptors seem to be lagging behind).

[Hephaestion]

I am not so sure that one can educate the world to use 'correct' terminology else we would not have dialects. Shemales gives an impression of men who have blurred their gender towards the female form for whatever reason. It is no more offensive than saying someone is brunette.

From Realist - silicone.

Is silicone now the accepted descriptor for 'nothing sticks'? It used to be 'teflon' in my youth. There is an example of language creep.

[transcendMental]

Would some one please educate me? What is a csimen? I've googled the term and nothing comes up. I did come across cismen though which seems to go along with the topic of this thread.

Cisgender is the opposite of transgender. It refers to people whose sex matches their gender.

[transcendMental]

Look the thread was started over the term "shemale". Marie and others are offended by the word and some csimen bisexuals fantasize about the exact thing that transwomen are offended by. What is your priority here? Maybe posters have no priority (and I'd rather not but tend to support the underdog here as far as politically correct vs csimen). I think that csi biguys should be able to post about their sexual fantasy regardless whether it offends a transwoman or not. As far as virgin bi people are concerned well that is what this site is about..bisexuality.

I know that I'm being politically correct rude but really now. If a transwoman is offended by a csibiguy's fantasy then maybe this is not the site for her or she should just skip over the thread. Transwomen are welcome to post ten thousand threads about being trans if that is what they want to do but expect a reaction from some ...even though most will be polite and not respond other than humble acceptance. We are mainly bisexuals who come here about our bisexuality and not gender issues. As some csibiguy posted, he doesn't open such threads. However, it does look like being a transexual is more important to Marie than her bisexuality. She may remain quiet about her bisexuality if she choses but creates a gender political action mantra about herself on the threads as is also her choice.


Tenni, the thread was started over the terms shemale and tranny being applied to transsexuals.

Neither Marie nor I expressed (here or in the other recent thread) unhappiness with people's fantasies, or about them talking about their fantasies. In fact we both went out of our way to say that people are welcome to post about whatever fantasies they want, and that it doesn't bother us that people fantasize about women with penises, or whatever! My problem in the other thread was over using the term "shemale" to refer to transsexuals. And that is the only point I was making here in my OP. Not about fantasies, but about language, damn it. Get it into your head: I don't give a damn what people fantasize about, or what fantasies they post about here. I do care about names being applied to transsexuals that suggest that we're something we're not. So get off the stupid high-horse about freedom of posting fantasies.

By the way, the controversy in the other thread over generic use of the word "shemale" wasn't even started by trans members! Lots of people had chimed in about it being offensive before either Marie or myself opened our mouths.

You question whether transsexuals can also be bisexual? Why the hell should this be questionable? A person is bisexual if they are attracted to both men and women, right? Why is it surprising that a transsexual could have both of these attractions? Now you can argue whether my "homosexual" side is the bit that's attracted to women or the bit that's attracted to men. But there should be no doubt that if I'm attracted to both, then I am bisexual.

I don't even know what you mean about Marie's transsexualism being more important to her than her bisexuality. How can a person's gender identity be more important than their sexuality, or vice versa? These aren't values, they are qualities that a person has. I have seen Marie post plenty about bisexuality and pansexuality, in addition to transsexualism and gender identity.

I am a member here because I am bisexual. I also happen to be a transwoman. How are trans topics relevant to bisexuals? Well, for one, we go through the same "closet" phenomenon and deal with the same issues of honesty. I for one chose to tell my (now) spouse that I was a woman as early on as our second date, and was thrilled at how well she accepted me. In her eyes at the time, I was a man who identified as a woman. This worked well for her, since she saw herself as straight, but enjoyed my feminine qualities, both in and out of bed. When I finally reached the point of needing to transition, she had to really examine her sexuality, and ask herself whether she could still love me, and still be sexually attracted to me as a physical woman. The fact that we're both also attracted to men creates a whole ton of sexuality issues as well. All of these sexuality issues are about bisexuality.

So why do you almost never hear about these kinds of things from me? Well, part of it is that we never seem to get that far. When a transperson posts on a topic, it creates confusion, because people don't understand what we are. Or worse, they have bad misunderstandings about who or what we are. And whatever point I would attempt to make would get lost in translation. It's like we need to get past trans 101 before we can move on to participating in wider discussions. I have no problem with that. I think educating people on this stuff is important. So I do it. Similarly, when I see ignorant or offensive attitudes toward transpeople pop up in other threads, I do my best to address those. You don't criticize women for responding to threads with misogynist content, or for commenting on offensive language or ignorant attitudes toward women. But when a transperson does it, we get this "oh, you'd be offended by anything" crap. What makes us so different? It certainly makes me (and apparently Marie) feel as though we're not very welcome.

tm

P.S. Hephaestian, did you even read my OP? If "shemale" is simply descriptive, then why are all the links when you Google that word to porn?

[Hephaestion]

1) Does it matter what happens when one Googles as there is no way of excluding returns?

2) There are the classic eulogies to the words 'fuck' or 'bastard' which have meanings according to the way said and the context.

3) just to clarify matters - I am gald that the mix of people here is what it is and I value highly many of the topics posted.

[Robinium]

(...) csimen (...) csimen (...)

Tenni, I agree with some of what you say, though not with all. What I want to say is, so many trans threads pop up here that it's too much off-topic stuff for a bi forum for my taste, unless both topics overlap somewhat. Though I can't resist posting in many of the trans threads once they pop up *sigh*.

But please do me a favor in the future: it's CISmen, not CSImen. Whenever you write about CSImen, it always makes me think of Horatio from the CSI Miami TV serial:

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/081020/Hated-TV-Characters/Horatio-CSI-Miami_l.jpg

Not that it bothers me, I love redheads and think that guy's hot, but still...

[Long Duck Dong]

part of the issue is that I am noticing that its been seen as the term shemale applying to transsexuals..... it doesn't... it refers to a person that is female in form and male in genitalia... a person that can be intersex or a trans person....

claiming that it applies to trans people is a misunderstanding as that gives the impression it applies to all trans people

shemale doesn't apply to a male with female genitalia
shemale doesn't refer to a non transitioned or fully transitioned person
shemale doesn't refer to crossdressers

it refers to a person that is female in form and male genitalia that is working normally..... and that can cover a intersex female with male genitalia or a partly transistioned person that has no desire to complete the transistion

buck angel is a example of the opposite side of the coin.... they are a trans person that is male in form but with female genitalia..... and they call themselves a man with a pussy.......
that could be seen as offensive to intersex people, F2M trans and other people.... yet we see trans people in the site, supporting and endorsing buck angel......

so why are trans people allowed to endorse partly transistioned people that are actively using their bodies for sex..... and now ruling that as wrong or offensive....... yet, cisgender ( which is a word I hate ) are not allowed to use a term that refers to a specific type of person, that can be using their bodies for sex, a term that is not applying to all trans... but in fact to some intersex and some trans people

bit like a case of do as I say, not as I do.......

[darkeyes]

I am not so sure that one can educate the world to use 'correct' terminology else we would not have dialects. Shemales gives an impression of men who have blurred their gender towards the female form for whatever reason. It is no more offensive than saying someone is brunette.

From Realist - silicone.

Is silicone now the accepted descriptor for 'nothing sticks'? It used to be 'teflon' in my youth. There is an example of language creep.

Faggot, poofter, bum bandit, top of the roof, shirt lifter, queer, pervert, dyke, rug muncher, bent, abomination.. just a few of the words commonly used by the bigoted to describe those who like to fuck their own sex.. the language of the gay basher..

Paki, Chinky, Slitty Eyes, Yank, Jock, Taff, Paddy, Wog, Nig Nog, Nigger, Frog, Hun, Deigo, Eytie, Gyppo, Jap, Yid, Polak... just a few words used by the bigoted to describe other nationalities they have contempt and loathing for... the language of xenophobia and racial hatred..

Many of us use any or all of these descriptors thoughtlessly, not intending offense, but they remain the language of the bigot. Can these eptithets truly be considered no more offensive than being referred to as a brunette? Do we approve of the use of such descriptors to describe other people? Would you think people who were so described had reason for taking offense?

So then there is a difference in the transgendered taking offence at being described as Shemale or Tranny? Can it really be compared to the description of the colour of ones hair? They don't have the right to take offence on the one hand as being described as something they are not, and on the other as an abbreviation which minimises the importance of who they are? You may not feel these descriptors offensive.. but they do..and that Heph me luffly is what is important...

[Long Duck Dong]

cos darkeyes, there is a difference between people getting offended at a term that doesn't refer to them or not directed at them.....and people that are offended by terms that apply to them directly.....

its like your usage of the term, lesser mortals in regards to males..... I could choose to be offended by it, cos omg I am male and its offensive or degarding.... or I could just ignore it as a aspect of the way you talk and that you are not intending to be offensive to males, cos of you were, you would use more direct and blunt terms.....

sure everybody in the site could stop using the terms, shemale,.... but that also infringes on a persons ability to refer to a specific person or personal trait.... and if a person has a desire or fantasy about a specific female form with male genitalia, what name is suitable to use..... and as I have already pointed out...... it needs to be a term that can address both trans and intersex special attributes......

I actually asked this question a few years ago in this site.... and I am still waiting for a answer on that question...... and the trans people still have not answered it......

[transcendMental]

yet we see trans people in the site, supporting and endorsing buck angel......

so why are trans people allowed to endorse partly transistioned people that are actively using their bodies for sex..... and now ruling that as wrong or offensive....... yet, cisgender ( which is a word I hate ) are not allowed to use a term that refers to a specific type of person, that can be using their bodies for sex, a term that is not applying to all trans... but in fact to some intersex and some trans people

bit like a case of do as I say, not as I do.......

Why are blacks allowed to call one another "nigger", but non-blacks should not?

Why is it acceptable for women to call one another "bitch" in some situations, but it's not ok for others to do this?

I can only argue my own discomfort, the evidence that it stems from something rational, and the fact that I do not use these words, or applaud trans porn stars any more than I applaud any other porn stars. I was as surprised to see Marie posting that link as you were.

And as I pointed out in the other thread, I do not object inherently to the word "shemale". I only object to people using that word to refer to transsexuals. I was the one who described in that thread what a shemale was (as I understand it), and how they differ from transsexuals. For me, the important distinction is that shemales identify as male, whereas MtF transsexuals, post-op, pre-op, or non-op, identify as female. If actual shemales on the site take offense to the word, and would like to suggest another, I will happily respect their request.

But, LongDuckDong, you raise an important question that is very relevant to the topic of this thread. You say you hate the word "cisgender". I am curious about why? I am not aware that "cis" has any negative connotation. Do you just object to having a word for people who aren't trans? I'm willing to hear your explanation, but this sounds to me like a straight person objecting to the word "straight", because they aren't the ones who need a label; they are normal; they're just people; it's those damned queers who special words and labels.

Is there something I don't know about the use or meaning of the prefix cis that makes cisgender offensive to you?

[transcendMental]

I actually asked this question a few years ago in this site.... and I am still waiting for a answer on that question...... and the trans people still have not answered it......

I don't completely get what the question was, but think I may have answered it in my last post. If not, could you rephrase it as a direct question?

But seriously, if you ask a question on an internet forum, and don't get a response in a week or two, and you care, it might be worth re-asking or re-phrasing the question. Still waiting for a response after two years, and thinking that we're even aware that you asked the question makes a person sound like a bit of a dork.

[darkeyes]

I dont deny my use of the expression "lesser mortals" may be offensive to some.. it has never been used to offend but some may take it personally..that I use it in a jocular manner has something to do with it.. and the fact that I do not think men are any less human than me.. but just as guys rant about women drivers I take it as it is usually meant, and I hope that guys take my use of the expression "lesser mortals" in the manner it is intended.. not as an insult, but as a laugh..

However, the terms so many use for transgendered people do offend for they are not intended as as laugh.. they are not jocular in the least.. they are intended to describe how people see the transgendered.. many do not intend to be insulting but the transgendered take offence at it because in popular literature, telly, radio and theatre they are considered something to laugh at.. the fact that the most popular usage of both expressions is for pornographic purposes further demeans them and it is not surprising that they take offence..

I do not normally take offence at being called tart, whore, dyke, lezzie or lesbo.. in fact I refer to myself as those things frequently.. I do if someone means it in a derogatory manner or uses such an expression thoughtlessly without realising they may be giving offence.. as human beings sometimes we can be too easily offended.. but sometimes, even those who are supposed to be our friends say and do something which we feel goes to far.. and if that is the case..then we should consider just how we use language and the expression we use when we refer to people.. care and consideration is all that is asked... a little compassion and to think about how we refer to people and their actuality...

[DuckiesDarling]

Why are blacks allowed to call one another "nigger", but non-blacks should not?

Why is it acceptable for women to call one another "bitch" in some situations, but it's not ok for others to do this?

I can only argue my own discomfort, the evidence that it stems from something rational, and the fact that I do not use these words, or applaud trans porn stars any more than I applaud any other porn stars. I was as surprised to see Marie posting that link as you were.

And as I pointed out in the other thread, I do not object inherently to the word "shemale". I only object to people using that word to refer to transsexuals. I was the one who described in that thread what a shemale was (as I understand it), and how they differ from transsexuals. For me, the important distinction is that shemales identify as male, whereas MtF transsexuals, post-op, pre-op, or non-op, identify as female. If actual shemales on the site take offense to the word, and would like to suggest another, I will happily respect their request.

But, LongDuckDong, you raise an important question that is very relevant to the topic of this thread. You say you hate the word "cisgender". I am curious about why? I am not aware that "cis" has any negative connotation. Do you just object to having a word for people who aren't trans? I'm willing to hear your explanation, but this sounds to me like a straight person objecting to the word "straight", because they aren't the ones who need a label; they are normal; they're just people; it's those damned queers who special words and labels.

Is there something I don't know about the use or meaning of the prefix cis that makes cisgender offensive to you?


As a straight person I only object to being called straight when it's used as an epithet, as I posted earlier. I am not sure anyone means to offend anyone on here but being PC in a non PC world is not easy. And yes anything anyone says can be taken as offensive by some, no matter what it is or who it is said to.

I don't mind LDD calling me bitch, cause he says it with a loving tone when I get something unusual in some of the games we play together. I would kick the ass of anyone either verbally or physically that referred to me as a bitch as an epithet. I hope you can see the difference is in the intent, not the word itself.

[transcendMental]

As a straight person I only object to being called straight when it's used as an epithet, as I posted earlier. I am not sure anyone means to offend anyone on here but being PC in a non PC world is not easy. And yes anything anyone says can be taken as offensive by some, no matter what it is or who it is said to.

I don't mind LDD calling me bitch, cause he says it with a loving tone when I get something unusual in some of the games we play together. I would kick the ass of anyone either verbally or physically that referred to me as a bitch as an epithet. I hope you can see the difference is in the intent, not the word itself.

And so you see people using the word "cisgender" as an epithet? Where?

I've heard of some transpeople scornfully calling the cisgender "cissies", out of an immature and mean-spirited attempt to discharge some of the negative energy they picked up being called "sissies" in school. But I've not seen that done here, and I've not seen anyone use "cisgender" as anything other than a descriptive word that indicates the opposite of transgender.

[DuckiesDarling]

I don't like cisgender because I don't like labels period, but I was not responding to that. I was responding to your statement that it's a bit like straight people not liking to be called straight because they are just normal or non queer.

[Long Duck Dong]

cos cis gender is another term coined to refer to others that do not match what we want to see...... and it falsely labels many that do not fall under the label as something they are not

shemale doesn;t apply to all trans, yet trans people it doesn't refer to are taking offense to it being used.......
cisgender is being used to refer to people that are not trans, like me, yet in fact I am intersex, so the term is incorrect when it refers to me....

it reminds me of when marie posted the trans umbrella diagram that classed, crossdressers, female impersonators, gender queer, drag queens, trans sexual, trans gender, and gender undefied, all as trans people

many of them are not trans and nor do they identify as trans..... yet it was seen as ok to label them as something they are not......

I find the term cisgender offensive on the grounds that it mislabels so many incorrectly and wrongly, yet is used by so many to label non trans.......

I am in fact intersex, not trans, nor cisgender...... yet the terms breeder and cisgender are used to refer to me......

[Long Duck Dong]

I don't completely get what the question was, but think I may have answered it in my last post. If not, could you rephrase it as a direct question?

But seriously, if you ask a question on an internet forum, and don't get a response in a week or two, and you care, it might be worth re-asking or re-phrasing the question. Still waiting for a response after two years, and thinking that we're even aware that you asked the question makes a person sound like a bit of a dork.

the question was simple..... and I have asked it a number of times in threads where the issue of the usage of the term shemale has come up... and each time its never been addressed, even when my posts have been quoted.....

if the term shemale is not acceptable for usage when refering to a specific group of people.... then what term is acceptable

[butthat'snotmyname]

So who wants to be called what? I'm at the point where I don't want to use any of the relevant words.

However, I do have a very hot fantasy related to this.

[Doggie_Wood]

Marie
Please do not be an extremist. Transwomen are welcome here but this site is primarily about bisexuality and not about transexuality or monosexuality (hetero or gay).

If transwomen are bisexual, I'm sure that your situation is difficult but I do not read any of your thoughts on your bisexuality. I read most threads that you start as about being a transexual person with nar a mention of trans bisexuality.

Tenni - if a Trans-woman is bisexual, does that not entitle her to engage in these forums. After all, you yourself said, "this site is primarily about bisexuality". Does the transexuality of her bisexual experiences or the bisexuality of her transexual experiences not quantify her input, thoughts, suggestions, ideas, beliefs, etc. on this site. Of course it does!!
True, this site by name only is primarily of and about a (this/our) bisexual community.
Bisexuality is bisexuality . . . or as I once heard it refered to as, "sexual fluidity" - whatever!
It makes no difference if a person is full "Bi" or "Bi-curious" or straight wanting to factually imerse themselves in "BiSexual Knowledge" - they are welcome here.
Just the idea of bisexuality in the diversity of the multi gendered mass that are bisexual in and of itself is so intricately intertwined that no one can say exactly where the line is drawn. Accept it and deal with it within your own confines. It is not needed here.
That being said - I will get back to the topic of THIS thread.
I recently met a 1+ year post-op Trans-woman. We talked honestly with each other about this and that. And the term she used to me, for me, was "Trans-Fan".
I wasn't offended. I thought it was quite an accurate reflection of who/what I am.
I am attracted to women, men and transfolk - so i guess I am a "tri-sexual" cause I'll try anything once (up to a point) and more if I like it.

Doggie :doggie:

[MarieDelta]

the question was simple..... and I have asked it a number of times in threads where the issue of the usage of the term shemale has come up... and each time its never been addressed, even when my posts have been quoted.....

if the term shemale is not acceptable for usage when refering to a specific group of people.... then what term is acceptable

Pre-op transexual or transwoman


cos darkeyes, there is a difference between people getting offended at a term that doesn't refer to them or not directed at them.....and people that are offended by terms that apply to them directly.....

its like your usage of the term, lesser mortals in regards to males..... I could choose to be offended by it, cos omg I am male and its offensive or degarding.... or I could just ignore it as a aspect of the way you talk and that you are not intending to be offensive to males, cos of you were, you would use more direct and blunt terms.....

sure everybody in the site could stop using the terms, shemale,.... but that also infringes on a persons ability to refer to a specific person or personal trait.... and if a person has a desire or fantasy about a specific female form with male genitalia, what name is suitable to use..... and as I have already pointed out...... it needs to be a term that can address both trans and intersex special attributes......

I actually asked this question a few years ago in this site.... and I am still waiting for a answer on that question...... and the trans people still have not answered it......


cos cis gender is another term coined to refer to others that do not match what we want to see...... and it falsely labels many that do not fall under the label as something they are not

shemale doesn;t apply to all trans, yet trans people it doesn't refer to are taking offense to it being used.......
cisgender is being used to refer to people that are not trans, like me, yet in fact I am intersex, so the term is incorrect when it refers to me....

it reminds me of when marie posted the trans umbrella diagram that classed, crossdressers, female impersonators, gender queer, drag queens, trans sexual, trans gender, and gender undefied, all as trans people

many of them are not trans and nor do they identify as trans..... yet it was seen as ok to label them as something they are not......

I find the term cisgender offensive on the grounds that it mislabels so many incorrectly and wrongly, yet is used by so many to label non trans.......

I am in fact intersex, not trans, nor cisgender...... yet the terms breeder and cisgender are used to refer to me......

You arent cisgender or a "breeder" (do you have children?) either. But I suppose you dont see it that way. Intersexed individuals are neither Cis or trans gender. They are both and neither by virtue of being born in the middle.

The terms cis and trans are from Latin, in which cis means "on the same side" and trans means "on the other side" or "across".

Transgender is someone who crosses gender boundaries, cisgender is someone who does not cross gender boundaries (stays on the same side.) Its a way of avoiding the usage or the implication that transgender individuals are not normal, a way of avoiding the usage of the awkward phrase "non-transgender." The former usage of "Genetic women" or "genetic males" was inaccurate as trans folk are the way we are due to genes as well.

I am not sure what porn link I posted? I did post one regarding a transexual produced film about transexual women pre, post and non op. I did so simply because it seemed like something people might be interested in.

I do not have a problem when "she male" is used as a category of porn, however, I do not wish it used to refer to people who have not completed transistion, pre or non op transexuals as is the case with most of the porn produced in that category, in my experience. Most "she male" porn is made by and for males both straight and bisexual. Gay males are not interested in women, whether they have a penis or not, in my experience. Straight men sometimes find themselves curious about what it would be like to suck cock, but they dont want anything to do with men or manliness.

Why is she male a term I would rather not have applied to myself? Because it says that I am nothing but a commodity. Something to be bought and sold. Secondarily it seems to imply that I am some sort of freak, an oddity that you would see at the sideshow. Lastly it says that what we are is a fraud - we arent females, we are males playing at being "she."

[Long Duck Dong]

Pre-op transexual or transwoman





You arent cisgender or a "breeder" (do you have children?) either. But I suppose you dont see it that way. Intersexed individuals are neither Cis or trans gender. They are both and neither by virtue of being born in the middle.

The terms cis and trans are from Latin, in which cis means "on the same side" and trans means "on the other side" or "across".

Transgender is someone who crosses gender boundaries, cisgender is someone who does not cross gender boundaries (stays on the same side.) Its a way of avoiding the usage or the implication that transgender individuals are not normal, a way of avoiding the usuage of the awkward phrase "non-transgender." The former useage of "Genetic women" or "genetic males" was inaccurate as trans folk are the way we are due to genes as well.

I am not sure what porn link I posted? I did post one regarding a transexual produced film about transexual women pre, post and non op. I did so simply because it seemed like something people might be interested in.

I do not have a problem when "she male" is used as a category of porn, however, I do not wish it used to refer to people who have not completed transistion, pre or non op transexuals as is the case with most of the porn produced in that category, in my experience. Most "she male" porn is made by and for males both straight and bisexual. Gay males are not interested in women, whether they have a penis or not, in my experience. Straight men sometimes find themselves curious about what it would be like to suck cock, but they dont want anything to do with men or manliness.

Why is she male a term I would rather not have applied to myself? Because it says that I am nothing but a commodity. Something to be bought and sold. Secondarily it seems to imply that I am some sort of freak, an oddity that you would see at the sideshow. Lastly it says that what we are is a fraud - we arent females, we are males playing at being "she."

a post op trans has no penis, so how the fuck can they compared to a she male style person and pre op refers to a person that is going to have the op....a lot of she male type people are not going to have the surgery...... your idol buck angel has not had the surgery.... yet he is using his status as a money making sex tool..........


think about what you have said.... intersex people are both trans and cis.... but also not trans and cis....... so what the fuck are we..... mongrel breeds ????? ..... the way you protray us, makes it appear like we do not know what we are..... but we do, we are people ..... intersex people... but beyond that, we are simply people.... with labels, for the benefit of others that like to classify people into groups.....

as for the porn link??????....... its actually the buck angel interview you posted... its not a porn link at all... it was a bloody interview, go read up about your idol and how he refers to himself as a man with a pussy.....

as for the usage of the *shemale * term, people are refering to people that are IDed as shemale, be it a porn term etc...... as they are stating the type of person they are thinking of...... so they use the term that best describes it....
people can hardly use the term * trans person, that is not fully transitioned, and in a state of transition that involves the breast enhancement surgery, changes to the face and body, with cosmetic enhancements but a fully working and functional good sized penis that enjoys sex with males in the form of giving and receiving anal and oral, and that may be interested in a casual / long term relationship, with or without the expectation of respect and consideration " every time they want to refer to a person that can fit the class of shemale


people are not refering to you as a shemale..... they are not refering to robinium as a she male, they are not refering to transcend as a shemale..... people are refering to a specific group of people......and not trying to offend people......

I, myself posted in the site once, about how I would love a long term full relationship with a she male...... and I got shot down etc etc.....
I still see the same thing going on about how she male type people can not get it up or its not working etc etc...... I have 3 friends that are she males, 2 in long term relationships..... and non of them have the problems that are stated on the forums...... now sure that is not true of all she males.... but it shows that not all the claims about she males are true either......

now lastly ... marie.... since you are in a long term relationship.... can you please entertain me as to how you can do that.... but people like me that WERE supportive and interested in she male type people in a long term relationship, are told that they are reducing she males to sex objects.......
are we not allowed to have sex with them, or is it classed as sex with trans type people is only restricted to those in fetlife, and B and D style activities ?????

I feel for the many trans in this site that no longer post or stay in the site cos of the way trans are being seen now... and that is not as normal people, but victims of circumstance, society and genetics........

[transcendMental]

think about what you have said.... intersex people are both trans and cis.... but also not trans and cis....... so what the fuck are we..... mongrel breeds ????? ..... the way you protray us, makes it appear like we do not know what we are..... but we do, we are people ..... intersex people... but beyond that, we are simply people.... with labels, for the benefit of others that like to classify people into groups.....


What would Long Duck Dong say about this?


the ability to be offended far exceeds the ability to offend......

And his girlfriend?


I don't think anyone means any disrespect but trying to be PC in such a non PC world is difficult at best, impossible at the worst. It doesn't matter what you say or what you refer to it as, I can guarantee the simple fact of saying something will offend someone somewhere.

Nods, ok, I get it.

[Long Duck Dong]

transcend, being a ex counsellor and therapist, I am only too well aware that as DD puts it * being pc in a non pc world, is impossible, cos somebody somewhere will get offended *

I was not offended by maries statement, only amused..... as the intersex are being protrayed in the same light as trans, by a person that doesn't want to be seen as trans, merely female..... but is reacting to labels that apply to only a few trans / intersex people, and stating they are offensive to trans people as a whole

how the intersex are being protrayed are as trans ( we are not ) and as cisgender ( that could only apply to us at birth ) but also that we are not trans ( some of us do become trans ) and some of us are not cisgender ( some of us are able to gender id as male or female, the sex we were listed as at birth )

being intersex is a aspect of what we are.... its not who we are..... in the same way that transgender is a aspect of what you are, its not who you are..... and that is a lady ( I believe you ID as a lady now )

[Humdidity]

Specific words are not, and should not be, the real issue. Intended meaning is what's important. Don't jump to conclusions about what people are saying due to semantics. If someone refers to you by a term you don't find flattering, tell them that politely and ask them to use the term you prefer. It's really that simple. Respect works both ways.

[diB4u]

Wow, a lot to digest here, some of it good and some of it not so good.


Like i originally said and probably nobody noticed which is fine, is that this site is for everyone. period.


To get back onto topic, i've noticed the many terminology for transgenders, and as a person who is well open minded to say the least the term of "she-male" is a derogotive phrase in my opinon, but then when you ask others they are not offended by that term.... So its horses for courses

Lets use this thread and others like it to educate ourselfs. and not split up the forum.

:2cents:

[H0wardmoon]

"Not that it bothers me, I love redheads and think that guy's hot, but still..."

I have never heard David Caruso called hot, by anyone, ever.

ANyway, my problem with "shemale" is that it's offensive to people who love the English language. It's just a stupid word, period.


But I think it's also an offensive term, mostly because it reduces these women to mere objects of lust.

More importantly, I resent the idea of some sort of litmus test for who can post here, and about what. If I want to post about how awesome a movie I saw was, I shouldn't have to count the number of bisexual characters and/or actors in it.

[MarieDelta]

a post op trans has no penis, so how the fuck can they compared to a she male style person and pre op refers to a person that is going to have the op....a lot of she male type people are not going to have the surgery...... your idol buck angel has not had the surgery.... yet he is using his status as a money making sex tool..................

Nothing wrong with using your body to make money. And Buck, is post op. Most FtM's dont have bottom surgery. The bottom surgery for FTM's does not yeild great results.

A transperson who will not have the surgery is non-op, but how do you know whether they intend to have the surgery?

Best just to use transwoman, if female. Transman if male.



think about what you have said.... intersex people are both trans and cis.... but also not trans and cis....... so what the fuck are we..... mongrel breeds ????? ..... the way you protray us, makes it appear like we do not know what we are..... but we do, we are people ..... intersex people... but beyond that, we are simply people.... with labels, for the benefit of others that like to classify people into groups.....

as for the porn link??????....... its actually the buck angel interview you posted... its not a porn link at all... it was a bloody interview, go read up about your idol and how he refers to himself as a man with a pussy.....


as for the usage of the *shemale * term, people are refering to people that are IDed as shemale, be it a porn term etc...... as they are stating the type of person they are thinking of...... so they use the term that best describes it....
people can hardly use the term * trans person, that is not fully transitioned, and in a state of transition that involves the breast enhancement surgery, changes to the face and body, with cosmetic enhancements but a fully working and functional good sized penis that enjoys sex with males in the form of giving and receiving anal and oral, and that may be interested in a casual / long term relationship, with or without the expectation of respect and consideration " every time they want to refer to a person that can fit the class of shemale


Transsexual refers to all people who identify as the opposite sex. Whether or not they have the operation or fully transition.

As far as what Buck Angel refers to himself, I dont care, as that is not what we are discussing.

He could call himself the man from mars, it wouldnt matter, honestly.


people are not refering to you as a shemale..... they are not refering to robinium as a she male, they are not refering to transcend as a shemale..... people are refering to a specific group of people......and not trying to offend people......

I, myself posted in the site once, about how I would love a long term full relationship with a she male...... and I got shot down etc etc.....
I still see the same thing going on about how she male type people can not get it up or its not working etc etc...... I have 3 friends that are she males, 2 in long term relationships..... and non of them have the problems that are stated on the forums...... now sure that is not true of all she males.... but it shows that not all the claims about she males are true either......

now lastly ... marie.... since you are in a long term relationship.... can you please entertain me as to how you can do that.... but people like me that WERE supportive and interested in she male type people in a long term relationship, are told that they are reducing she males to sex objects.......
are we not allowed to have sex with them, or is it classed as sex with trans type people is only restricted to those in fetlife, and B and D style activities ?????


Gee honey, if you cant figure it out, I guess you dont know as much as you think you do. FWIW not all my lovers are into BDSM, nor are they on fetlife. But they all are satisfied.

In other words, it is none of your business, tyvm.



I feel for the many trans in this site that no longer post or stay in the site cos of the way trans are being seen now... and that is not as normal people, but victims of circumstance, society and genetics........

The women that they are refering to as "she-male" are women just like me, for the most part. Women in porn who are transsexuals. If you do this, there will be social repercusions, the majority of transwomen will not date you.

If you want to be a rude bastard, go ahead, I cant stop you. However I will think less of you.

If you continually refer to women as "c*nt", "bitch", or "whore" what do you think your chances of being her friend are? Why do you think it would be different with us?

As far as what people refer to themselves as, I dont care. As a generic term it is rude.


Truthfully, I think these boards bore most transpeople out of here. Just not enough here beyond the "have you ever had a cock this big" crap.

I have talked to some people who have visited and left this site, for greener pastures, they tend to say that, a lot.

Others, well, life ebbs and flows.

[littlerayofsunshine]

I probably shouldn't post on such a heated topic, under duress from pain and high on meds. So forgive me if it isn't really relative what i say, or offensive. In my mind it makes sense.

There once was at time, not in the too far past. That any man who had a cock in their mouth or ass was called a Faggot. It was a term used to stir excitement and made people feel better saying it and made others feel emotion.

Now we have Women on the board and straight People. Who could easily use word as a relative term for a bi-man. After all it is a word that doesnt represent themselves, but some other group of people.

But most people won't because its a Derogatory term, the ones offended would most likely feel that the term doesn't describe them accurately and is insulting. Most people understand "couth" and empathy. to not dare use a term like that. And its not entirely related to being "PC"

From what i am hearing from our Trans members if i am understanding correctly. Its fine to use the term "She-male" in reference to porn. Its a genre and title to that particular art. But inside of that. A She-male is not giving the performance, Its a transwoman.

I don't feel that Marie or Transcend, were getting on a pulpit fighting for rights. I am sure that they have come across enough ignorance and tried to handle this with an understanding mind in the other thread, where they were trying to get the point across that Most of the trans community find terms like that offensive and that they themselves also.

Just like there would be a Bi male rally, if Faggot was used here, to over throw that term. But i am not sure that there would be as much understanding given. It's normal human behavior to stamp a foot and yell a little louder when you feel you are not being heard, whether its because you don't feel heard at all or are not being heard properly.

I doubt what i say makes much sense and has become more of a ramble. But.. use the term she-male all you like, freedom is yours to abuse. but don't be surprised if the ones you fantasize are the same ones you are offending, and lessens deeply your chance of getting to know a trans person more intimately and personally, because now you know, its offensive.

It's like biting off your nose, just to spite your face.

oh.. idk... what i do know is.....shit.. oxycodone is some goood stuff. I'm finally beginning to walk again without assistance.

[MarieDelta]

I, myself posted in the site once, about how I would love a long term full relationship with a she male...... and I got shot down etc etc.....
I still see the same thing going on about how she male type people can not get it up or its not working etc etc...... I have 3 friends that are she males, 2 in long term relationships..... and non of them have the problems that are stated on the forums...... now sure that is not true of all she males.... but it shows that not all the claims about she males are true either......



So basically because "we" told you that a certain term was dehumanizing to us you felt scorned?

You got offended and hurt feelings because "we" told you that it wasnt respectful?

Interesting.

[Robinium]

But most people won't because its a Derogatory term, the ones offended would most likely feel that the term doesn't describe them accurately and is insulting. Most people understand "couth" and empathy. to not dare use a term like that. And its not entirely related to being "PC"

Plus it's a forum board here, so it's often difficult to see in which context a word is used and with which intonation etc., which means, best way to deal with ambiguous/offensive words like "faggot" etc. is to avoid them or to use them only in a very clear context or when talking about oneself. Otherwise, it always tends to cause trouble, that's just my general experience from non-private online written communication.


But.. use the term she-male all you like, freedom is yours to abuse. but don't be surprised if the ones you fantasize are the same ones you are offending, and lessens deeply your chance of getting to know a trans person more intimately and personally, because now you know, its offensive.

Yeah, that's the pragmatic side of it. Calling a transwoman a "she-maie" just doesn't help you ever getting a date with her if you want your fantasies to come true, as many many of them find this very offensive. Might just be useful to know that and keep it in mind, cause you never know who you'll meet in the future and don't want to ruin the rare occasion just because of a silly word.

...As for the pain you have and the medicine etc., I really wish you'll be fine again soon, Little Ray.

[tenni]

Opps Sorry for misusing the word cismen(did I get it correct ?? I tried ) Men will simply not generally refer to themselves as cismen. That is a reality. That wording seems to be part of transexual language but not bisexual men.

As far as those who believe that this site is for everyone, I disagree to some degree. What is the point of calling a site "bisexual.com" if it is not "primarily" about bisexuals and bisexuality? Sure other topics will be brought up (those of us who are more geo & human political will carry on at times). Many views will be expressed but if bisexual views are not the focus and most vocal, the site has failed. It is not transexuals.com, gay.com or hetero.com. Egalitarian attitude yes to a degree but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. It is a site for bisexuals. If the transexual person is bisexual fine. Tell us that the term "shemale" offends you and bimen will not personally call you that. Let it go after that otherwise you seem to be politically propagandizing. Gee ..a while back some people held strong to calling a "sex trade worker" a "prostitute" rather than the term that I understand sex trade workers prefer. I guess we do not have any politically vocal sex trade workers on this bisexual site to rant about it?

[diB4u]

Opps Sorry for misusing the word cismen(did I get it correct ?? I tried ) Men will simply not generally refer to themselves as cismen. That is a reality. That wording seems to be part of transexual language but not bisexual men.

As far as those who believe that this site is for everyone, I disagree to some degree. What is the point of calling a site "bisexual.com" if it is not "primarily" about bisexuals and bisexuality? Sure other topics will be brought up (those of us who are more geo & human political will carry on at times). Many views will be expressed but if bisexual views are not the focus and most vocal, the site has failed. It is not transexuals.com, gay.com or hetero.com. Egalitarian attitude yes to a degree but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. It is a site for bisexuals. If the transexual person is bisexual fine. Tell us that the term "shemale" offends you and bimen will not personally call you that. Let it go after that otherwise you seem to be politically propagandizing. Gee ..a while back some people held strong to calling a "sex trade worker" a "prostitute" rather than the term that I understand sex trade workers prefer. I guess we do not have any politically vocal sex trade workers on this bisexual site to rant about it?

Well that makes that im not welcome here either, because i dont fit into the bisexual website, i might have tendencies but then again i might not, ive considered myself to be straight but wishing to meet and find bisexual men, so what about peopel like me?

think that this thread is well on the cooking pan and its sizzling up some deep seated emotions, which can be a good thing ... or not...

BTW marie and anyother transgenders on this site you continue to post and enjoy this site for whatever reason.

[MarieDelta]

Well that makes that im not welcome here either, because i dont fit into the bisexual website, i might have tendencies but then again i might not, ive considered myself to be straight but wishing to meet and find bisexual men, so what about peopel like me?

think that this thread is well on the cooking pan and its sizzling up some deep seated emotions, which can be a good thing ... or not...

BTW marie and anyother transgenders on this site you continue to post and enjoy this site for whatever reason.

Tenni, I belive, would like this to be a only bisexual website. Others of us enjoy the community of other folks with similiar interests.

I'm sure both he, and some other folks, would like it if "the rest" of us disapeared from this site. Instead of calling them out on the BS from time to time.

[Hephaestion]

Faggot, poofter, bum bandit, top of the roof, shirt lifter, queer, pervert, dyke, rug muncher, bent, abomination.. just a few of the words commonly used by the bigoted to describe those who like to fuck their own sex.. the language of the gay basher..

Paki, Chinky, Slitty Eyes, Yank, Jock, Taff, Paddy, Wog, Nig Nog, Nigger, Frog, Hun, Deigo, Eytie, Gyppo, Jap, Yid, Polak... just a few words used by the bigoted to describe other nationalities they have contempt and loathing for... the language of xenophobia and racial hatred..

Many of us use any or all of these descriptors thoughtlessly, not intending offense, but they remain the language of the bigot. Can these eptithets truly be considered no more offensive than being referred to as a brunette? Do we approve of the use of such descriptors to describe other people? Would you think people who were so described had reason for taking offense?

So then there is a difference in the transgendered taking offence at being described as Shemale or Tranny? Can it really be compared to the description of the colour of ones hair? They don't have the right to take offence on the one hand as being described as something they are not, and on the other as an abbreviation which minimises the importance of who they are? You may not feel these descriptors offensive.. but they do..and that Heph me luffly is what is important...

Accepted, the list of decriptors given above can be used to offend and degrade.

However, it is not these descriptors which are being dealt with. It is the term shemale. There is nothing in the term which is intrinsically offensive. It is an accurate description. The committment in physical change may be called playing at being female but it seems strange to describe it as such when surgery and chemical treatment is embraced in the process.

Where in semantics one term applies and another takes over in some minds remains a little mysterious. Perhaps a transexual is 'on the way' to full gender change and one day will assume that full identity. Whereupon that person will assume the epithet male or female as appropriate, as has my friend now at the end of her journey.

There is no intention to call anyone anything that offends them. However, the world accepts and uses the term shemale comfortably and without malice, myself included.


.

[darkeyes]

However, the world accepts and uses the term shemale comfortably and without malice, myself included.


.

..and this my darling, is where we differ.. for the world does not mean it as a compliment, but as a term to demean and minimise their struggle and their person.. the world may be confortable with it, but the community of people they so describe is not.. it is at once an arrogance and a contempt to continue to describe people as something they loathe and do not see as being what they are...

[MarieDelta]

What group of people has no slurs that are applicable to them? Why do we think this is?

[DuckiesDarling]

No group of people exists anywhere in this world that has not had a slur word made up by someone else to describe them.

[MarieDelta]

No group of people exists anywhere in this world that has not had a slur word made up by someone else to describe them.

So the slur for a straight upper class white male, that he'd actually care about is?

[transcendMental]

Accepted, the list of decriptors given above can be used to offend and degrade.

However, it is not these descriptors which are being dealt with. It is the term shemale. There is nothing in the term which is intrinsically offensive. It is an accurate description.

However, the world accepts and uses the term shemale comfortably and without malice, myself included.


I don't see how half the words in Fran's list are any more "intrinsically offensive" than "shemale".

You say it is an accurate description, and it can be when applied to shemales. When applied to MtF transsexuals, however, it is the opposite of descriptive. To call someone a shemale is to call them a male with a she component; but a MtF transsexual does not identify as male; she identifies as female, and is frequently pretty unhappy about the male bits she has.

Lots of people (not necessarily on this site, but generally) call partly transitioned transsexuals "shemales" out of a combination of ignorance and malice. And often those two qualities (ignorance and malice) are intertwined. Others hear this word applied to transsexuals, and don't realize that it actually applies not to transsexuals, but to a completely different group of people: men who identify as men, but for whatever reason want to have breasts and dress as and pass as women. These men often wind up in porn (again, the Google evidence suggests that a great number of people associate this set of people with pornography). So associating transsexuals with shemales creates an unwarranted and unpleasant association between transsexuals and pornography. This is not to say that no partly-transitioned transwomen ever end up in shemale pornography: as a financially disadvantaged group, they often turn to whatever work they can find. But just because a transsexual plays a shemale in a film doesn't mean that they identify as one. And the association is not one that the rest of us relish or appreciate.

I don't know how English culture treats it, but in American culture, the word "shemale" is not used comfortably or without malice. You almost never hear it at all, but when you do, it's used up there with "he-she" in reference to a transwoman who doesn't pass well, and is usually said with a sneer, as in "did you see that fuckin' he-she back there? Those goddamned shemales give me the fuckin' creeps!"

No, it's not a comfortable word, nor an accurate description of its target when it's directed toward a transwoman.

tm

[transcendMental]

So the slur for a straight upper class white male, that he'd actually care about is?

He's so well-adjusted and superior that any slurs slung at him by lesser beings (i.e., anyone not straight, upper class, white, and male) would just roll right off him.

[DuckiesDarling]

So the slur for a straight upper class white male, that he'd actually care about is?

I'm not playing this game with you, Marie. You wanna know, go google it.

The bottom line is when you continually post about something bothering you then you essentially hand a weapon to someone to use against you. When it's not said in reference to you, just move on. When some idiot says it in reference to you, then tear em a new one.

[transcendMental]

the question was simple..... and I have asked it a number of times in threads where the issue of the usage of the term shemale has come up... and each time its never been addressed, even when my posts have been quoted.....

if the term shemale is not acceptable for usage when refering to a specific group of people.... then what term is acceptable

It would depend on which specific group of people you're referring to.

If you are referring to people who identify as men/male, but have chemically or surgically feminized themselves and want to appear as female, then "shemale" is fine by me. I did address this question in a previous post, and said that if those people are offended by it and want to suggest another word, I'm open to that.

If you are referring to MtF transsexuals, then "MtF transsexuals" or "transwomen" are preferred terms. This question has been answered many times.

Btw, yes, these forums do give short shrift to portraying or discussing intersex issues, and those issues are complex. As a non-intersexed transwoman, I don't really feel I have the right or expertise to post on them. That would be up to members of the intersexed community here.

Finally, yes, I identify as a woman. But I always have (since I was 16 anyway, and realized that what had been confusing and frustrating me all my life was that I'm female); not just, as you suggest, "now".

tm

[Hephaestion]

..and this my darling, is where we differ.. for the world does not mean it as a compliment, but as a term to demean and minimise their struggle and their person.. the world may be confortable with it, but the community of people they so describe is not.. it is at once an arrogance and a contempt to continue to describe people as something they loathe and do not see as being what they are...

The important qualifier 'without malice' has been overlooked. If ever it was, shemale is certainly not a derogatory term in today's global society. Perhaps it is time for the relevant communit(y / ies) to realise this.

Nevertheless, your words and concerns are heeded.

.

[transcendMental]

I'm not playing this game with you, Marie. You wanna know, go google it.


I was curious, so I tried. The best I could find was:

Cracker : (U.S.) a white person.

and

White-bread : (North America) middle-class to upper-middle-class white person, or a member of another race that shares their values

That last one comes close, but omits "straight" and "male". I guess you can't Google something that doesn't exist.

[Hephaestion]

................. So associating transsexuals with shemales creates an unwarranted and unpleasant association between transsexuals and pornography..........tm

Sex and pornography are intextricably intertwined and always will be. It is disingenuous to believe otherwise. Appearance is the the most immediate lure - although disappointments frequently follow.

("....How come the girls come on, oh so cool? But when you meet them every one's a fool...." The Who).

[MarieDelta]

It would depend on which specific group of people you're referring to.

If you are referring to people who identify as men/male, but have chemically or surgically feminized themselves and want to appear as female, then "shemale" is fine by me. I did address this question in a previous post, and said that if those people are offended by it and want to suggest another word, I'm open to that.

If you are referring to MtF transsexuals, then "MtF transsexuals" or "transwomen" are preferred terms. This question has been answered many times.

Btw, yes, these forums do give short shrift to portraying or discussing intersex issues, and those issues are complex. As a non-intersexed transwoman, I don't really feel I have the right or expertise to post on them. That would be up to members of the intersexed community here.

Finally, yes, I identify as a woman. But I always have (since I was 16 anyway, and realized that what had been confusing and frustrating me all my life was that I'm female); not just, as you suggest, "now".

tm

I have yet to find ANY evidence of such individuals.

Lots of hearsay, but no actual persons that I've met have ever stepped up and said with pride "I'm a shemale." The closest I've ever seen is ads for prostituites in magazine.

If you know of one , would be glad to talk to him.

[TaylorMade]

So the slur for a straight upper class white male, that he'd actually care about is?

WASP, honkey, ofay, cracker, Whitey, White Bread, Polack (I have heard it used for ALL white people, not just of polish desent), Pinkie, Saltine,Albino, (Mr.)Charlie, The Man, Gringo. . .

I can go on.

*Taylor*

[rissababynta]

Ya know...I think I remember Tenni turning a whole thread upside down once because he personally didn't like the term "prostitute."

Hmmm...

[TaylorMade]

He's so well-adjusted and superior that any slurs slung at him by lesser beings (i.e., anyone not straight, upper class, white, and male) would just roll right off him.

Oh, you have GOT to be kidding me! Straight white men have been told by people like us that he is racist, homophobic... prejudiced... and for many of them, they break their necks not to be... but it's not enough.

And If I am noticing this. . .? I quit life.


*Taylor*

[Long Duck Dong]

It would depend on which specific group of people you're referring to.

If you are referring to people who identify as men/male, but have chemically or surgically feminized themselves and want to appear as female, then "shemale" is fine by me. I did address this question in a previous post, and said that if those people are offended by it and want to suggest another word, I'm open to that.

If you are referring to MtF transsexuals, then "MtF transsexuals" or "transwomen" are preferred terms. This question has been answered many times.

Btw, yes, these forums do give short shrift to portraying or discussing intersex issues, and those issues are complex. As a non-intersexed transwoman, I don't really feel I have the right or expertise to post on them. That would be up to members of the intersexed community here.

Finally, yes, I identify as a woman. But I always have (since I was 16 anyway, and realized that what had been confusing and frustrating me all my life was that I'm female); not just, as you suggest, "now".

tm

I would be refering exclusively to people that ID as shemales...... and they are generally ( based around what my trans friends and the 3 that id as shemales tell me )... a person that is female in form but possessing the genitalia of a male, they do not id as trans people or intersex, and do not see themselves as trans or intersex......
they use the term shemale to define themselves as functioning males with a female form.......
they use the term shemale cos of the interest and to garner attention from interested parties, male or female .....

they do see themselves as a third gender, not male or female but a form of hybrid person, but a person that has thoughts, feelings and emotions ....

their means of being as they are, can be naturally born that way, chemical changes / surgical changes etc, genetics..... generally a wider range of changes that can seperate them from the trans people that use chemical / surgery changes.....

as for the term shemale, its also used to stop them being seen as trans people as they do not see themselves as trans people

now I trust in the judgement of my friends as they live that lifestyle and they know better, the way they wish to be seen.... and I respect their right to be called and seen as shemales...... however I do not apply the term shemale to people like TM, marie, robin, danielle, melissa and the other trans in the site that use other labels that better describe them....

and TM I do apologize for my lack of knowledge regarding your self iding, I do recall that you have said in the past that you do id as a lady and have for a long time.... I stand corrected

[transcendMental]

I would be refering exclusively to people that ID as shemales...... and they are generally ( based around what my trans friends and the 3 that id as shemales tell me )... a person that is female in form but possessing the genitalia of a male, they do not id as trans people or intersex, and do not see themselves as trans or intersex......
they use the term shemale to define themselves as functioning males with a female form.......
they use the term shemale cos of the interest and to garner attention from interested parties, male or female .....

they do see themselves as a third gender, not male or female but a form of hybrid person, but a person that has thoughts, feelings and emotions ....

their means of being as they are, can be naturally born that way, chemical changes / surgical changes etc, genetics..... generally a wider range of changes that can seperate them from the trans people that use chemical / surgery changes.....

as for the term shemale, its also used to stop them being seen as trans people as they do not see themselves as trans people

now I trust in the judgement of my friends as they live that lifestyle and they know better, the way they wish to be seen.... and I respect their right to be called and seen as shemales...... however I do not apply the term shemale to people like TM, marie, robin, danielle, melissa and the other trans in the site that use other labels that better describe them....

and TM I do apologize for my lack of knowledge regarding your self iding, I do recall that you have said in the past that you do id as a lady and have for a long time.... I stand corrected

As I've said time and again, I have no problem with people who identify as shemales calling themselves that. And if they want to use it to distinguish themselves from transsexuals, so much the better.

And I appreciate, LongDuckDong, that you use appropriate words for the right people. I wish everyone did. My point in starting this thread was not to rail against the word, or to complain about people who had certain fantasies. It was to point out to people who say "hey, you transsexuals are being too sensitive if it bothers you to be called tranny or shemale" that there are valid reasons why it bothers us. These words (whatever else they may mean to others) are widely associated with pornography, and used demeaningly.

And Marie, yes, I have chatted with at least 3 people on this site who identify that way. I don't know how proud they were, but I believe one was called something like "WannaBeAShemale".

[transcendMental]

Sex and pornography are intextricably intertwined and always will be. It is disingenuous to believe otherwise.

Um, duh? What does that have to do with transsexuals, though?

[DuckiesDarling]

And there is one more that visited chat earlier. I won't post the name but after we said hello asked "Does anyone wanna chat with a shemale just pm me"

[Hephaestion]

Um, duh? What does that have to do with transsexuals, though?

It was a response to the claim from yourself that somehow using the term shemale drew in pornography whereas by implication other terminology didn't


......So associating transsexuals with shemales creates an unwarranted and unpleasant association between transsexuals and pornography........

.

[darkeyes]

The important qualifier 'without malice' has been overlooked. If ever it was, shemale is certainly not a derogatory term in today's global society. .

Its not? I don't wish to labour the point... I love my brother dearly, but listening to him and his m8's talk about transpeople and more than once taking issue with them... I beg to differ.

[transcendMental]

It was a response to the claim from yourself that somehow using the term shemale drew in pornography whereas by implication other terminology didn't.

I must be missing your point. My OP already had established that "shemale" is associated with pornography whereas "transsexual" is not. The fact that transsexuals and shemales are two different kinds of things should be enough to suggest to people that one should not be called the other. But the association of shemales with porn give transsexuals another reason not to want that term applied to them.

I don't see what your patronizing explanation that porn is associated with sex has to do with any of this.

[Hephaestion]

I must be missing your point. My OP already had established that "shemale" is associated with pornography whereas "transsexual" is not. The fact that transsexuals and shemales are two different kinds of things should be enough to suggest to people that one should not be called the other. But the association of shemales with porn give transsexuals another reason not to want that term applied to them.

I don't see what your patronizing explanation that porn is associated with sex has to do with any of this.

Your posting is flawed. There is no exclusivity. Words such as transexual, tranny, shemale, ladyboy, and any other combination of words linked with gender are associated with pornography. Gender is fundamentally about sexual reproduction (there are good biological reasons for this avenue). For as long as there has been sex there has been an interpretation of 'pornography'. The two go hand in hand i.e. they are inextricably linked.

For example, dominance and submission are quite natural in the territoriality of nature; being buggered by the alpha male serves a purpose. We adapt this readily for a varity of purposes. It can be in play (sexual or otherwise), in oppression (voluntary or otherwise), in the sheer mechanics of getting an organisation of any sort to work.

There is tremendous overlap in the terms shemale and transexual. Neither are abusive unless you want them to be. People who act the victim only serve to attract abuse. Take pride instead.