My convo with a gay leader tonight -- for your thoughts/reactions

Dear all,

In the wake of the Advocate's provocative cover story, "Is 'Gay' Over?", I took the plunge today and asked to meet with a prominent leader in the gay activist community. I wanted to discuss the growing sense, in many corners, that bisexuality is going to enter into public discussion about sexual orientation -- and I wanted to encourage him to be welcoming to it.

This person is actually a friend of mine from six years back. He is close to me, and supportive of my family life. So I was surprised -- no, shocked -- to hear what he really thought about bisexuals.

In a nutshell, he believes that the gay community has to shut bisexuals out completely from their ranks, in order to make any political progress. He said, "there is no time to appease Uncle Toms in the aftermath of Matthew Shepard. Those who aren't willing to sacrifice themselves for the cause, cannot be trusted."

I said, half jokingly, that his intensity resembled that of someone running a cult, a terrorist training camp, or a Nazi beer putz of the 1920s. "Are you a fascist?" I asked. He said without irony, "yes, but I am a fascist for gay rights." This astounded me, coming from someone widely admired in progressive circles in the city where I live.

It took me a while to recover from his unexpected reaction, but I was glad that he finally came out and said what was on his mind. I suspect it is the same thing that many gay leaders think but won't say to our faces.

I gave him the usual justifications that we bisexuals give, in such contexts, but he told me flat out that (1) he will not believe any study that suggests that bisexuality is a real sexual orientation, (2) "pure" gays have enough numbers to accomplish their goals and therefore have no need of courting bisexuals, and (3) straight allies in the struggle against homophobia are more comfortable with gays than with bisexuals anyway, so gays have the power and right to exclude bisexuals.

I asked him if he thought that bisexuals who supported all his political goals were in any way useful for him. He said no. The fact that "bisexuals create doubt in the minds of gay men and encourage assimilationist approaches" meant that bisexuals were not only unnecessary, but even a liability to be shunned.

When I pleaded with him to advocate for more bi-positive rhetoric in the gay activist community in town, he even told me, "no bisexual has ever made the sacrifices or taken the risks that gay people took, to get the few advancements we have gotten. Therefore they [bisexuals] cannot suddenly ask a movement to adapt to their needs, when they haven't contributed to the movement at all."

How, I asked, could he have been such a close friend without ever telling me that he felt these things?

He told me, simply, that he had never viewed me or my life as related to his struggle at all. It was only because I had tried to involve myself in his gay politics that he felt obliged to come clean about his beliefs.

This conversation lasted two and a half hours and got nowhere. I realized that I had to cut loose. Because most of my male friends are gay, I had grown accustomed to these painful moments of alienation. But this was more than I could bear. I came home and felt an all-consuming gloom fall over me. Not only did I feel like I didn't know someone close to me at all; I also wondered if we ever know what people are capable of.

If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions about how to overcome impasses like this one (I do want to try to overcome it rather than leave it fester) I would be very grateful.

Love,
J

With all due respect your friend, if not actually a deusch in real life, sure is good at coming off as one.

As for winning people over, I think that most of the time it won't happen.

Let's look at the gay (used inclusively)/straight macrocosm. There is definitely a line which separates people into two groups. Acceptance is not something I think many people are wishy washy on, and those who are deep down inside harbor feelings that would allow them lumped into either category. For example, I think people who say "It's ok if they just keep it away from me" are generally not accepting of us. Yes, there are a few cases someone can cross the line, such as a homophobic parent's love for a gay/lesbian/bi/trans child overcoming their hate. For the record, that's the only case I've thought of if anyone else can give me another, shoot. Anyhoo, I'm apt to take a stance of you're either for us ("us" still being the gay community inclusively) or against us, regardless of whether or not you're actually saying it, and I think people are gonna keep to their sides pretty much forever.

I think the same thing can be applied to the gay-bi microcosm. Whether bisexuals are by numbers a majority or minority, I'd say that we are definitely the political minority. We're still in a state of, the (again, inclusive) gay community consists of gays, lesbians and "other." I think that a divide exists. On one side, you have those who "get it" that sexuality is fluid and multichotomous rather than rigid and binary. On the other side, you have those who don't. I think the former argument is a bit pale, how the hell can you face people unwilling to say there is no sexual attraction aside from heterosexual, then turn around and say there is no sexual attraction(s) other than hetero/homosexual? The people I see in the latter by one of two means. One, they are two stupid to see this simple logic. Two, they willfully ignore it. Either way, these are not people who are ever going to be our allies. Honestly, woulod you really want people that pigheaded or thick headed? As far as I'm concerned, not having them "help" us is addition by subtraction.

Our day will come. But we need to take it for ourselves rather than wait around for them to give it to us.

Hello Johnny,

Thank you very much for sharing this posting. You went into this conversation with a very clear ideal as to the desired outcome; and, obviously, feel rejected and set-back by the outcome.

You may not like what I am about to say; however, you have struck a nerve with me and I want to share my thoughts anyway. This level of honesty is rarely found and its sharpness certainly causes one to pause. Your friend is clearly saying that he is at war and you (bisexuals) are not welcome in his battle. His pragmatic approach leaves little ambiguity about where he stands. He has a definite belief set, to which it sounds as if he has given tremendous and careful thought. From his point of view, he clearly knows the "soldiers" and "weapons" that will best serve his targeted win.

I can see how he may conclude that the lesser known classification of "bisexual", with its slippery boundaries, may blur the intensity of his political message. We (bi's) seem to be a complicated bunch and, as you have noted, we have not historically had a united voice (such as hetros and gays have had). If this is a black or white issue, we (bisexuals) seems to be multiple shades of gray.

Remember this is his framework for war -- one powerful man's point of view. Yet, he is one man. Many may share his position. Other gays may not. (I know some people who identify themselves as gay, who carry much different political views than your friend.)

I am sorry for your discomfort. When I am in similar painful situations, I focus on reminding myself that I cannot change the other persons opinion, at least directly. Francis Bacon said: "All progress is made by a circular route". Two suggested courses of action are:

1) Be the best that you can be -- advocate for human rights using your own style and your unique gift of inclusiveness. Campaigns work best when there are multiple approaches of intervention. You can progress fully on your own terms. Who knows, one day, he may see you through different eyes. You may impress him and he may want to be included in your camp.

2) Work on gaining influence over those people to whom your friend listens. When lobbying politicians, we ask: "Who does he listen to?" In more than one case, the answer is: "his mother". Amazing what powers of persuasion lay in waiting in unexpected places.

And good for you for all that you are doing to raise awareness and change the persuasion of others! I humbly thank you. Be gentle with yourself and be gentle in your thoughts about your friend. Each of us have our own place in history.

With Love and Light,
Red

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnnyV

"When I pleaded with him to advocate for more bi-positive rhetoric in the gay activist community in town, he even told me, "no bisexual has ever made the sacrifices or taken the risks that gay people took, to get the few advancements we have gotten. Therefore they [bisexuals] cannot suddenly ask a movement to adapt to their needs, when they haven't contributed to the movement at all."

---

I'm sorry that you had to endure this kind of attitude from him. Perhaps he needs to study history a little more -- to look back at some of the bisexuals, trans people and drag queens who were part of Stonewall and who helped to lay the foundation for the modern LGBT movements.

I could only add that I have observed some community meetings in Toronto where I saw a few gay men who thought that the queer community started and ended with them. Their version of what was a real community didn't include other gay men outside of a certain age group. No lesbians. No bisexuals. No transmen and no transwomen. These were meetings where there was inclusion around them, where my bisexual self was comfortable to be there, but absolutely no inclusion amongst them.

Unfortunately, JV, having worked with and in many non-profit orgs and polictical causes the truth is most of the leadership are people with big mouths and very small brains.

The bottom line is their isn't anything you can do about it, but feel sorry for his own prejudices, ignorance and brashness. YOU are a better man than he, as you stated your case and just allowed his assertiveness wash over you, affect you and not responded in kind with idiotic rhetoric that demeans not only the entire bi-sexual community, but the political system and the sexual equality political movement all the way back to Stonewall.

The only thing you, and we, can do is to continue to speak our minds and views as openly and honestly as we allow any one else to and know that set backs and defeats are due in a large part to the prude narrow mindedness of the powerhouses who seem to just scream louder than any one else at the right time.

As for how to keep it from festering within yourself, learn the hardest lesson I have had to learn in life--don't waste energy and time on something that you have absolultely no control over. Taking care of those things is, in my humble opnion, in the hands of a higher power who knows more about what HE is doing than I.

Don't be so hard on yourself. This is one person with his own beliefs and value system. It's a shame he's locked out so many people from helping him and others in his mind, but sadly there are many, many people just like him.

When we share a common cause, belief, or friendship with another person we tend to ascribe to them other beliefs and values they don't necessarily share. When we find the truth it tends to hurt us more than it really should. I know I've experienced it enough in my life.

This guy is an extremist who will never truly respect bisexuals or straights. You can associate with him and even call him a friend to an extent, but he never truly was one and never truly will be. Just don't let his prejudice embitter you as it has him. There are plenty of people out there, gay and straight, who really do accept you as you are and will welcome you in the fight for equality. Your "friend" just isn't one of them.

On another note, if this guy is a leader in the community, then it's time to out him for what he really is - a hate monger. Let other leaders know his beliefs about bisexuals in plain language just as you did here. I think you'll find most really do not share his warped views.

In any case, I'm sorry you've lost a friend, but it seems to me that you've come out ahead.

It amazes me how much ignorance and bigotry there is in the gay community. I wonder how much further the movement of the community could get if all of this were let go of?

This gay leader acts like just another special interest seeking advantageous benefits from government and a kind of group sanctity from the public. They suffered so long and everyone should feel so guilty about it that this group of victims should enjoy a special status.

Bisexuals are complicated. They are harder to understand in some ways and they are the most different in some ways. Still, anyone who really cared about the sexual freedom of individuals stands for the freedom of all, not some particular subset. Clearly, your old friend does not stand for a high-minded idea of sexual individuality and freedom. He just wants power and acceptance for his group. This is small-minded, but not unusual. Enduring and real sexual freedom always lies in the principle of respect for the individual, not some special interest group.

Bisexuals have a very special perspective in that they not only better appreciate people of both sexes, but they can better appreciate the middle ground of the entire spectrum of sexualities. When bisexuality is accepted by most people as moral and normal, everyone will be much better able to examine their own sexuality and much better able to understand it. I believe most things of a complex nature cannot be fully understood and are in fact likely to be badly misunderstood when one does not perform experimental tests of ideas. The sciences would not be science without experimentation. Politics and business are largely experimental. So, if most people are terrified by the middle ground of bisexuality and therefore cannot enter it to do the experiment, they will not understand sexuality. They will build theories on sand and those theories will topple over in time. We see immense sexual anguish all around us. Serial marriages are often an attempt to solve problems without really addressing them. One-night stand after one-night stand is the same sort of thing.

I don't even know why they call themselves queer - they're only straight people in the wrong body. Fuck 'em, we need our own movement. Gay and straight rights will never do it for us. It's funny how they hate us for being less stigmatised - ask any straight person and they'll tell you we're more stigmatised by straight people. We have a choice you see, we should know better. I'm not happy about hatred of people who are not straight being called homophobia either. Shouldn't we be pressing to change it to queerphobia? One last thing, aids. Why are people who are not straight held 100% responsible?

Thank you for sharing this and I am sorry if your friend hurt you. Many political gay people feel as he does, we do dilute their idea of a binary world.

Our day will come, but it will be after they have their day.

GIANT HUG SENT YOUR WAY

(((Johnny))), I’m sorry your friend disappointed you. I’m sure it was quite disconcerting to think you had allies in your plight only to find you had none. Its one thing when it is a casual acquaintance but very different when it involves a close friend. Sort of how a person probably feels when a buddy comes out of the closet saying they are gay. You thought you knew them, and then suddenly there is this whole new entity in front of you. It’s off settling at first, that feeling of deception, but you adjust and see they are still the same person deep down. I’m sure your friend didn’t want to cause rifts within your friendship by saying anything before. He can’t possibly think all bi’s are the same anymore than all gays are, or he would not have you as a friend in the first place. But alas, as Wellred has stated, he’s fighting a battle and we are casualties of war. Struck down by friendly fire…...only we won’t stay down.

Wow, that's really, really shitty. I've never come face to face with this sort of sentiment, though i'm not really active in the "community." This guy seems like a genuine douchebag. Like a lot of genuine douchebags, he's probably not all that important, and I don't think he'll end up being too powerful for "the cause" or "the community." Thinking about it now, how often do extremists (as this guy seems to be) make a real difference outside their movements? The leaders we remember are the Martin Luther Kings, not the Louis Farrakhans.

So we shouldn't be so quick to say "that's it, the gays hate us, let's split off!" Its the moderates with real messages that make a differences. Let this guy have his streetcorner or his rally or his exclusive party, its just that sense of exclusivism that will keep him from really making a difference. So, don't support this guy; keep supporting the movement.

Oh, and i totally second GLantern's giant hug. :)

Johnny, that sucks. :( Your friend obviously has his own issues, it's unfortunate that as someone in a leadership position he's able to inflict his issues on others. I have to admit, I don't know if I'd be able to deal with someone like that... I've been very lucky in never having to deal with that kind of idiocy from the queer community.

I think it's time I asked my gay friends what they think, or if this is something they've heard of...

At least in my personal experience, your friend is somewhat rare, not in how he feels, but in how strongly and well-thought out his position is. Most such approaches and ideas in the gay community seem a bit more unconscious and less calculated. But, it ain't new - bisexual women experienced (and still do)exactly this reaction from lesbian feminists who view bisexuality as a treason to female rights.

There are also plenty of parallels between other movements - blacks vs. hispanics over civil rights is a great one. The gays are also bashing nonmonogamous marriages - look at the lack of uproar in the community when Santorum equated gay marriage with incest, bestiality and polygamy. Nobody said - hey, you can't equate polygamy with nonconseensual sex! No, the gay community just left that notion alone, because they know that to win their rights, they have to be nonthreatening, and bisexuals and nonmonogamous marriages are ultimately and innately threatening to the status quo!

but you know what Johnny? you go brother/sister!!!!!! having those conversations, regardless of outcome, raises the ante and the discussion.

david

My thoughts are why do we need a movement?

Are bisexuals collectively, throughout history, and
today going to defecate?

Yes, I know we each individually do that. What I am
ignorant about is an entity, say bisexuals all over the
globe, personified to such a point. We've been around
since before there was a concept of time in humanity's
little brain.

It is the same with homosexuals, be they men on men, or
woman on woman. This reminds me of a conversation I had
last night. A lot of ground was covered, which is good
in some respects, at any given I culled a quote. I'll
post that quote below.

"Nothing is True. Everything is permitted."
- William Burroughs

The person I was talking with asked if I believed that.
Yes I do. Let me clarify it out for everyone as I did
for love. You might be surprised, or not, if you stop
and think about it.

A pure objective truth does not, nor can ever exist. In
the event one does, no one will ever grasp it, and
we'll bury it in lies. Crucial to understanding why
this is the case is understanding humans are animals.
That means we are ruled by base desires like hunger.

It also means we are subjective. What I see, you do
not, and the inverse applies. This is one reason I
doubt the divinity alleged behind any belief's sacred
texts written by humans, also why I think there is far
too much suffering in our many worlds.

You are not me, nor I, you. If you follow that logic
out there is no universal one size fits all. Everyone
has the Truth, but there is no Truth. Why can we as
humans not accept that? It makes life easier to follow
some bit of philosophy my mom taught. "Live and let
live."

Everyone is incorrect, but everyone is correct. Sometimes
I think I am too balanced. And my thoughts on idiots being
narrow minded is to laugh. "Death to _all_ fanatics!" There's
even moderation in itself, and if people don't 'get' that you
can find better mates, who do.

Many of us on this site appear to 'get' it. Though, the
adage is, "those who know don't tell." Apologies for
going completely around the bend to articulate my
thoughts & reactions. I felt it merited as I prefer
being honest with people. No point in not being
yourself, as Dr. Suess reminds us.

Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who
mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. --
Dr. Seuss

And yes, I read and write a great deal. I explore life
a good bit, too, despite contrary perceptions I may
espouse. "What's that Ben, you play dumb?" "Oh
sometimes. We all can be foggy. We are human, right?" I
enjoy Byron's advice, "think like the wise man, speak
as the dull man."

This often makes life easier, because not everyone
wants to read _War & Peace_ just to find "I agree", at
the end. Still, I have been verbose in this reply to
benefit many applications. For wanting understanding,
I'll never apologize. I don't think you owe the gay friend
an apology, either.

Excuse me now, must write another thousand words into a
one hundred-twenty thousand word novel, & live my
otherwise everyday life as mild mannered Dirk
Underwood. :)

Much love and respect to you Johnny, for weathering such an unpleasant storm. I think you are very courageous. Even if what you said appeared to have made no difference to his mind, you never know what seeds you may have planted.

There are plenty of people who have shifted from a position of strong prejudice to something more humane, and perhaps what you have said will encourage your friend in that direction.

Even if it does not, I feel very fortunate that there are people such as yourself who can speak up for us in even the most hostile of environments. Big ups to you, and I hope the feeling of deflation promptly passes.

Here's my 2 cents...

Your friend, JohnnyV, has some strong feelings about gay rights. I can relate to that a bit, as the current attempt by the religious right to roll back sexual freedoms and human rights disgusts me strongly. His statement, "I am a fascist for gay rights", is over the top, but I suspect there are many in the GLBT rights movement who might say that in the passion of the moment but don't mean it literally. I am confident that the mainstream GLBT movement isn't going to resort to violence or anything else that would hurt the general public and therefore GLBT rights.

And here is where I am going to piss off some of my fellow bisexuals... I think that gay folks have a point when they contend that bisexuals haven't pulled their weight when it comes to advancing gay rights. Many of us bisexuals are in the closet - much more so than gay folks. Harvey Milk said rather famously that the greatest thing that a GLBT person could do to advance gay rights is to come out of the closet. When I first heard that it sounded very odd to me and I didn't believe it; I thought how could simply coming out help gay rights, and I thought that folks who are in the closet could do many other things to advance gay rights that are more effective than simply coming out. But the more I thought about it, the more I came to the conclusion that Mr Milk was right. When GLBT people come out of the closet their family, coworkers, friends and neighbours all realize that homosexuality is not what the religious right claims it is. It puts a face to homosexuality with dozens and dozens of people. Many parents have concluded, after their child has come out, that homosexuality can't be all that bad if their own child is homosexual - because they know their child and they know their child's character. So coming out is a very powerful act that helps all other GLBT people.

But many bisexuals have other considerations that make coming out more difficult for us. We might be in a straight marriage where the spouse may not know, or may know but not be ready to come out themselves as the spouse of a bisexual person. And many bisexuals live in small towns or suburbs where the community is much more hostile to an openly gay/bisexual person than an inner-city community. Inner-city gay folks have a support network and insulation that rural and suburban gays/bisexuals do not.

So for these reasons and more, bisexuals do tend to be in the closet more than gay folks and, in that limited sense, do not pull their weight for GLBT rights.

But your friend is dead wrong when he extends that into a blanket statement such as "[Bisexuals] haven't contributed to the movement at all" (ahem, has he forgotten Brenda Howard's contributions?), and confesses a desire to exclude bisexuals from the GLBT rights movement.

The gay community needs the bisexual community, and for that matter, they need the (straight) swinger community, the libertarians, straight couples who watch porn together, and the feminists too - anyone who believes in sexual freedom. Gay people alone cannot grant themselves full equality - it needs to be done by a majority of the populace who conclude that sexual freedom and sexual equality are important human rights - that in a just society people can't be discrimated against for what they do in the privacy of their own bedroom.

So I wouldn't sweat it too much that you couldn't convince your friend that the bisexual and gay communities have so much in common and need each other. He is badly mistaken.

Keep in mind that in our own, bisexual, community we have folks who are a bit radical. There are some bisexuals who vote Republican/Conservative, hate all things gay, and think that homosexuality/bisexuality needs to remain in the closet. Every community has its mistaken radicals I guess.

- Drew :paw:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drew

Here's my 2 cents...

Your friend, JohnnyV, has some strong feelings about gay rights. I can relate to that a bit, as the current attempt by the religious right to roll back sexual freedoms and human rights disgusts me strongly. His statement, "I am a fascist for gay rights", is over the top, but I suspect there are many in the GLBT rights movement who might say that in the passion of the moment but don't mean it literally. I am confident that the mainstream GLBT movement isn't going to resort to violence or anything else that would hurt the general public and therefore GLBT rights.

And here is where I am going to piss off some of my fellow bisexuals... I think that gay folks have a point when they contend that bisexuals haven't pulled their weight when it comes to advancing gay rights. Many of us bisexuals are in the closet - much more so than gay folks. Harvey Milk said rather famously that the greatest thing that a GLBT person could do to advance gay rights is to come out of the closet. When I first heard that it sounded very odd to me and I didn't believe it; I though how could simply coming out help gay rights, and I thought that folks who are in the closet could do many other things to advance gay rights that are more effective than simply coming out. But the more I thought about it, the more I came to the conclusion that Mr Milk was right. When GLBT people come out of the closet their family, coworkers, friends and neighbours all realize that homosexuality is not what the religious right claims it is. It puts a face to homosexuality with dozens and dozens of people. Many parents have concluded, after their child has come out, that homosexuality can't be all that bad if their own child is homosexual - because they know their child and they know he/she is a good person. So coming out is a very powerful act, that helps all other GLBT people.

But many bisexuals have other considerations that make coming out more difficult for us. We might be in a straight marriage where the spouse may not know, or may know but not be ready to come out themselves as the spouse of a bisexual person. And many bisexuals live in small towns or suburbs where the community is much more hostile to an openly gay/bisexual person than an inner-city community. Inner-city gay folks have a support network and insulation that rural and suburban gays/bisexuality do not.

So for these reasons and more, bisexuals do tend to be in the closet more than folks and, in that limited sense, do not pull their weight for GLBT rights.

But your friend is dead wrong when he extends that into a blanket statement such as "[Bisexuals] haven't contributed to the movement at all" (ahem, has he forgotten Brenda Howard's contributions), and confesses a desire to exclude bisexuals from the GLBT rights movement.

The gay community needs the bisexual community, and for that matter, they need the (straight) swinger community, the libertarians, straight couples who watch porn together, and the feminists too - anyone who believes in sexual freedom. Gay people alone cannot grant themselves full equality - it needs to be done by a majority of the populace who conclude that sexual freedom and sexual equality are important human rights - that in a just society people can't be discrimated against for what they do in the privacy of their own bedroom.

So I wouldn't sweat it to much that you couldn't convince your friend that the bisexual and gay communities have so much in common and need each other. He is badly mistaken.

Keep in mind that in our own, bisexual, community we have folks who are a bit radical. There are some bisexuals who vote Republican/Conservative, hate all things gay, and think that homosexuality/bisexuality needs to remain in the closet. Every community has its radicals I guess.

- Drew :paw:

---

And we also need to come out to show the world bisexuals exist, not just gays, add on the points you made to what I've just said aswell. My fiancee said if one of our friends asks me my sexuality she won't mind if I answer truthfully. I'll probably do that.

The following is an AIM conversation between myself and my husband. regarding this post. He is tandemrip, and I am Ohbedah.

tandemrip: *smooooooch*
tandemrip: Lots of hotties in pilates this morning *drool*
Ohbedah: I am suddenly so depressed.
tandemrip: ?
tandemrip: Over the hotties in Pilates?
Ohbedah: http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1292
tandemrip: *sigh*
tandemrip: The civil rights movement was over when blacks started to say that gays should have no rights
tandemrip: The gay rights movement is over because now the bisexuals aren't really gay. They choose to be gay
tandemrip: Ug
tandemrip: Ignore them
tandemrip: They've lost sight of the point of living
tandemrip: Sexuality is about living
tandemrip: Regardless if you like guys, girls, both, yourself, whatever. It is about living
Ohbedah: I don't want to be out anymore if they are going to think of me that way.
Ohbedah: I'm not afraid of my parents knowing, I am afraid of getting sneered and shunned if a gay person finds out.
tandemrip: Isn't that a reflection of themselves, then? If they are threatened by you, doesn't it mean they don't feel comfortable with themselves?
tandemrip: Stick to your guns. Stick to your sexuality. Fuck the fucking fuckers
Ohbedah: Lol
tandemrip: But I am serious though. Fuck them
tandemrip: Fuck anyone who tells you how to live.
tandemrip: (You can even tell me to fuck off for saying that you should tell people to fuck off)
Ohbedah: Lol
tandemrip: If this guy is threatened, then let him be threatened
tandemrip: If lesbians are threatened by bisexual girls, let them be
tandemrip: I am not threatened by any of you
tandemrip: This is a telling quote:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JrzGuy3

I think the former argument is a bit pale, how the hell can you face people unwilling to say there is no sexual attraction aside from heterosexual, then turn around and say there is no sexual attraction(s) other than hetero/homosexual? The people I see in the latter by one of two means. One, they are two stupid to see this simple logic. Two, they willfully ignore it. Either way, these are not people who are ever going to be our allies. Honestly, woulod you really want people that pigheaded or thick headed? As far as I'm concerned, not having them "help" us is addition by subtraction.

---

tandemrip: That guy has lost the moral high ground.
Ohbedah: I still have a newfound fear of lesbians now though.
tandemrip: ok.
tandemrip: People have issues. Some will say "Eww! Bi's? Ick, they chose to be this way!"
tandemrip: Others will say "Cool! "
Ohbedah: One gay person says something bigoted, and I assume my own bigotry and start to fear all lesbians.
tandemrip: ah
tandemrip: Like my fear of Christians
Ohbedah: Lol Yeah. Both are unfounded. We are only afraid of the loud obnoxious ones who do not reflect the majority.
tandemrip: Yup
tandemrip: I think what you are feeling is bi-phobia-phobia
Ohbedah: So I should only be afraid of loud obnoxious lesbians whom I wouldn't want to be around anyway.
tandemrip: Exactly
tandemrip: Just like the fundies who fight hard against homosexuality, only to be found with a male prostitute in a compromising position
tandemrip: And maybe for now just try to associate with bisexuals. Go to the support group. Discuss your feelings
tandemrip: Isn't it tonight? You can go after you exercise
tandemrip: Strength in numbers
Ohbedah: You have work to do?
tandemrip: Not tonight
tandemrip: You need this more
Ohbedah: Thanks. You really helped.
tandemrip: Now go get a girlfriend who likes balding, 35-year-old married guys
Ohbedah: LOL
tandemrip: *smooch*
tandemrip: And if anyone were to put you down, regardless of sex, I'd knock them to the floor
tandemrip: For you, my love, are truly one of a kind
Ohbedah: Awwwwww! *SMOOCH*
tandemrip: *teary eyed*
Ohbedah: You too. *hugs*
tandemrip: Feel better?
Ohbedah: Lots! Lol Trying to get out the door and start my day now.
tandemrip: good

Rhuth,

Your AIM conversation is a wonderful example of the support that spouses can give each other! Very inspiring.

- Drew :paw:

sorry to hear that your friend is like that.

I recieved almost nothing but positive support from gay men and the LGBT/queer community, even when I was in a questioning period and I needed more sexual experiences to come to a concrete decision. Lots of my friends later (or sometimes earlier) told me how they're bi or how they'd had sex with women as teenagers/young adults and while they wouldn't do that now, that it was a good thing when they did it and they even enjoyed it then. Some had even been married once or twice before. There was even one transwoman that had spent most of her previous life as a heterosexual man.

I even had a friend that didn't identify as bi but he'd had sex with men twice in his life, when women weren't around and he'd been with a lot more women than men.

Some people would say things like "oh you're just confused", or I think that a lot of people thought that I am straight. People would tell me I am "straight acting" and I'd think WTF does that mean? How am I "straight acting" if I have sex with men? I just took that with a grain of salt and realized that it doesn't matter what other people think I am/read me as but what matters is how I percieve myself. Honestly, I didn't mind the ambiguity since I figured that it's just something that I should get used to.

I tend to think of me as "me", not as "gay" or "straight" or "bi". I also know that I've been in love with women, and I've been in love with men, and that I've been sexually attracted to both, and that it's my decision to be with whomever I want, because it's my life and I only get one. That was not an easy path to take, but I can tell you that on the whole I'm happier as a person than I ever was in the past when I had to play the "what if" game. If people do ask me my sexuality I say that I am bi-sexual since that is a lot easier for people to understand than if I say "oh I'm fluid" or "I'm just sexual".

Of course, lots of people that I met thought that bisexuals are as "rare as unicorns" to quote a phrase/joke I've seen. I honestly don't mind that as those people's worldviews are built around labels and stereotypes and it can be fun to shatter those for others, to educate them.

Hot damn, Rhuth! Sounds like you're the luckiest gal I know! Congratulations to you both - the conversation added a needed spark of happiness/humor/optimism to an otherwise sad topic of conversation.

But, on topic, Johnny V, you have my sincerest sympathies for this awful revelation about how your gay friend truly feels. It seems like your friend belongs (on this issue, at least) to the very cold and calculating crowd - the same kinds of people who destroy our environment for a quick profit, while completely missing the point that you can't continually diminish one side of the equation without eventually affecting the other. These strategies are not "sustainable."

I remember when I first encountered the concept of racism within the black community - that some blacks were "blacker" than others, and therefore better. A friend of mine who had both black and white parents got called "oreo" often during high school by her black "friends", and I have to admit that, as a caucasian, I never realized how truly hurtful this statement was until I figured out my own sexuality and experienced the biphobia that some str8s/gays/lesbians exhibit. (I truly wish I could take a time machine back to those days and give those a-holes a piece of my mind, instead of silently allowing them to perpetrate their ignorant acts).

All I can say is that I do believe that you should take pride in the fact that you argued your case for this unenlightened fellow - you certainly have my thanks as a usually silent bi-stander in such situations; thanks for giving me and my/our sexuality a voice! - and realize that he is simply one voice in an ocean of opinions (though I know that the betrayal of a close friend isn't so easily dismissed by this kind of logic).

Unfortunately, there's not a lot to do in the face of such people. I usually just think of a quote my sister often uses in her signature. "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" (Gandi, I think) - the best we can do is set the example we wish others to follow. It's a more long-term strategy, I guess, and not very satisfying in the short term, but I for one believe it works.

I have one thought... how many of the "straight" supporters of gay rights are closet bisexuals?

Your friend seems to appreciate their support. If they come out will he reject it?

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Originally Posted by Rhuth

tandemrip: This is a telling quote:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JrzGuy3

I think the former argument is a bit pale, how the hell can you face people unwilling to say there is no sexual attraction aside from heterosexual, then turn around and say there is no sexual attraction(s) other than hetero/homosexual? The people I see in the latter by one of two means. One, they are two stupid to see this simple logic. Two, they willfully ignore it. Either way, these are not people who are ever going to be our allies. Honestly, woulod you really want people that pigheaded or thick headed? As far as I'm concerned, not having them "help" us is addition by subtraction.

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tandemrip: That guy has lost the moral high ground.

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Could you explain this a bit? I'm not trying to attack you, but I'm curious as to what you're (or your husband is) going for.

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Originally Posted by JrzGuy3

Could you explain this a bit? I'm not trying to attack you, but I'm curious as to what you're (or your husband is) going for.

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I think he's saying, "by jove Watson, you've got it". lol No, I think he is agreeing with you....that's what it sounds like to me anyway.

hell, sorry to hear of your heartfelt ache, caused by someone you thought your friend! from the readings above, you have a community here that can give you far more than that moron and low-level thug can every give or be willing to support.

take what i say from here on out as what has proven useful to me; first, a bit of history. i am active in our political community here in my hometown, and my neighborhood; i sit on various boards, councils, what have you, not in the big picture, but in the behind the scenes areas. i also am active in many areas of my life, now and long before. in addition, i have my own housing development company, not big, but we build superior quality homes and other housing types in the in-fill areas of our city; much of my time is plotting out strategims and doing battle, with politicos, bureaucrates, nimbys, people(s) from any and all walks of life that think they are more capable than anyone to determine future courses of the greater community.

your friend is a not too smart, not all that imaginetive, of a very common type; he is more fearful that other's messages will cloud their own, and so bite back like a junk-yard dog at perceived threats. what he fails to realize, or more likely fearful of, is that he stands on the shoulders of far more determined and stronger fighters than he can ever be. despite rhetoric to the contrary, no movement does it "...all on their own..."; it is only fighting your fight, as well as equipped as you can possibly be, and getting their attention, all to gain notice, meanwhile, learn their angles, desires, and soft spots, etc. all to help your cause/effort, so that you can either achieve consesus and/or compromise, or end-run them to the finish line. not the friendliest approach, i grant you, but then your supposed "friend" made it quite clear as to his intentions.

your battle is yours, and those who share the same goal and mind-sets (you, me, and the others that populate this website for example); we bi-sexuals no more need the gays, lesbians, straights, democrats, republicans, religions, etc., etc., they have made quite clear they do not otherwise need us. their opinions, statements, and attacks are based on ingnorance, and selfishness. this is in part why i answered the inquiry that was posted to us in advocate, as undecided; i wasnt given any other meaningful reply (a not so bright way of controlling the results), and i explained my intentions afterward. i used to get a subscription to adovcate, but dropped them as i no longer felt that my issues were being addressed; i dropped the straight world paradigms, and those of the gay world, as much for their failures as their imagined successes.

we, who walk a different path, must learn to carve out our worlds, share within our friends and families :bibounce: (meaning the greater associations of others in your community), perpare to defend the same, attack as needed and leave no threats, and stay the hell away from these small minded ignoramouses. the problem is often getting them to leave us the hell alone; oh, well let me go sharpen by saber. :2cents:

dont let the bastard get you down, hang your head on the shoulder of a kindred soul, and have a good cry; then prepare to do battle! :male: :female: united! :flag2:

your kindred friend and soulmate! :cool:

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Originally Posted by allbimyself

I have one thought... how many of the "straight" supporters of gay rights are closet bisexuals?

Your friend seems to appreciate their support. If they come out will he reject it?

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Maybe they'll just get a slap on the wrist for being naughty. :tong:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JrzGuy3

Could you explain this a bit? I'm not trying to attack you, but I'm curious as to what you're (or your husband is) going for.

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Omg I'm so sorry, JrzGuy! I didn't notice that before! I had edited out some personal information, and accidentally changed the meaning there! My husband quoted you because he felt you made a strong point. One I might have found comforting if my head had not been reeling from JohnyV's post. The person who lost the moral high ground was certainly not you, as my poor grammar in my post implies. JohnyV's friend is the one who lost the moral high ground. I thought I had read your post, but my husband's quoting it in AIM made me go back and read it. It was quite good and quite comforting. When JohnyV gets back on, I am sure it will be a nice anchor for him. Thank you.

*hugs*
Rhuth

allbimyself makes an interesting point in implying that substantial numbers of the apparently straight people who support undiscrimination against gays are likely to be bisexual in some sense. There is a contradiction in welcoming their support when they are silent about their sexuality, but shunning it when they declare their bisexuality. However, it is clear that this gay leader is playing a very Machievellian political game and is not really in the least concerned with either rational consistency or morality.

tandemrip: Sexuality is about living

Rhuth's husband was right on on this and made a number of other good points as well.

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Originally Posted by Rhuth

Omg I'm so sorry, JrzGuy! I didn't notice that before! I had edited out some personal information, and accidentally changed the meaning there!

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It's cool. This is actually what I thought happened, cuz your post was way more coherent that way. No harm, no foul :tongue:

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Originally Posted by citystyleguy

we bi-sexuals no more need the gays, lesbians, straights, democrats, republicans, religions, etc., etc., they have made quite clear they do not otherwise need us.

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I think that this may be a bit harsh. I won't disupte that there is large degree of biphobia and transphobia in the gay rights establishment. However, I think it's very important to distinguish between the establishment and people represented by the establishment. To judge all the people in the focus groups you name by the decision makers in the gay rights movement is like a European judging all Americans against Shrubby down in D.C.

To speak in favor of some of those groups, I'm happily registered as a democrat. I'll admit that the party hasn't taken as strong a stance on bisexuality as I'd like (read: none). However, I know that to advance the liberal and progressive movement that I think is starting to take swing in this country, some issues will need to wait until the left becomes a force with more momentum. I'm content (not happy, content) with this.

I'm also very happily a Unitarian. The organization is EXTREMELY open to people like us; in fact, there are entire congregations called "Welcoming Congregations" which go out of their way to be GLBT inclusive (not just GAY inclusive, but GLBT inclusive) While I don't think we should be calling Catholics and many Protestant denominations our friends right now, we shouldn't write of religion as a whole. You can't judge the purity or the value of a religion by those who are perverting it.

Furthermore, I have Many gay or lesbian friends whom are entirely accepting of bisexuality. In fact, one of my best friends and future Best Man is the first gay friend I ever had, and has been one of the most influential people in my life since I met him.

So in summation, my argument is that the System, the Establishment are the forces which are broken and it's the influential people in them, the gay rights leaders that came from the 70s who have taken the ship off course and into the rocks. These systems and groups do us no good politically and should not be ones we're lining up behind. Yet, we need to be discerning enough ourselves as to not turn away the people whom ARE our allies.

*~Fed