Is the Military on the Verge of Crashing?

[the mage]

The U.S. military is in real trouble...
Sad really as the rallying cry is "support the troops"


http://www.mediachannel.org/wordpres...e-of-crashing/

[darkeyes]

Fat chance.. but we can but hope.....

[TaylorMade]

Fat chance.. but we can but hope.....

Excuse me? My country may not be perfect, but I'll be damned If I'm gonna let someone wishing harm on our military go.

Fran... sometimes, your nievete' leads you to say the dumbest things and THIS is definitely one of them- - I really wish you'd of thought before typing this- - even in jest, it's the kind of statement that really makes me question any respect I had for you.

Goodnight, Dark.

*Taylor*

[12voltman59]

The damage to our military is yet one more unintended consequence (or maybe it was not so unitended) of this "war"--with the incompetent manner the Bush administration has done just about everything--the military is yet one more example of the failures of this administration and to me---goes to show-the Bush 43 administration is going to rank among the list of failed presidencies and actually wins--hands down--the ranking of the worst presidency in the history of the United States of America!!!!!

The sweeping nature of Bush failures actual lead me to believe that being so bad was his actual goal---Bush came in to the office with the general conservative belief that all government is bad---the only thing it is good for is to enrich your bankaccount or at least let your cronies enrich themselves while gutting any of the good things government does---they have been a great success at this.

The list of government agencies and branches that Bush has damaged runs the gamet from the State Department, The Department of Justice, FEMA and now the Defense Department and more.

Way to Freakin' Go King Chump!!!

[FalconAngel]

I'm with Taylormade on this one.

I am a Veteran of that military and the way I see it, the only ones that want this nation defenseless are it's enemies.

I have seen how the anti-military has treated our troops. In the 60's and 70's they were spit on for serving. The anti-war crowd in the 60's called the troops "baby killers" when they came home from Vietnam.
I served with Sr. NCO's who were young troops in Nam and if those protesters knew what these guys went through over there, they would have shut their yaps.

Our troops are now embroiled in a war that was created by a warmonger and his war-profiteer friends, and those troops are paying the price. They deserve better than someone wishing our military to collapse.

NO free nation remains free without the ability to defend itself.

Those troops are where they are because they wanted to serve their country. There are, currently NO draftees in the US military.
Our country is protected by an ALL VOLUNTEER force, and a free man defending his home is worth a hundred conscripts.

Those troops are following their orders, as they should. There may be some illegal orders floating around, but no soldier in our military has the duty to comply with illegal orders and has the lawful right to not comply with unlawful orders. What other military is like that, outside of the free world?

We may be embroiled in "Vietnam II: desert version", but that doesn't mean that our military service members do not deserve respect. They do. They are doing a job that many, here and elsewhere, would not do even if their own freedoms depended on it.

So while some may want to bash the military, think about this quote:

“I was in an elevator in a Washington hotel, packed with ‘peace activists.’ They looked with disdain at my dress uniform. I queried the most boisterous among them, ‘If you were locked away in some God-forsaken hell hole of a prison in one of the ‘Stans,’ who would you rather have coming to rescue you, buses loaded with peacenik protestors or helicopters loaded with gung-ho Marines?’ The silence was deafening.” —Colonel (USMC), San Diego, California

[Moto1]

I'm with Taylormade on this one.

I am a Veteran of that military and the way I see it, the only ones that want this nation defenseless are it's enemies.

I have seen how the anti-military has treated our troops. In the 60's and 70's they were spit on for serving. The anti-war crowd in the 60's called the troops "baby killers" when they came home from Vietnam.
I served with Sr. NCO's who were young troops in Nam and if those protesters knew what these guys went through over there, they would have shut their yaps.

Well I know what they went through. But still they shouldn't have gone. Although it is not the fault of the troops, the fact is that the war was a stupid anti-democratic action (the Vietnamese wanted free elections, the US said no because they feared a communist party would win) that killed millions (the same number of people were killed by the US army EVERY DAY of the conflict that died in 9/11. Puts it into perspective doesn't it?). The fact that the US troops had a hard time as well does not mean it was not a war that shouldn't have taken place. (Unless you are not saying that it should, in which case I apologize!)

[darkeyes]

Excuse me? My country may not be perfect, but I'll be damned If I'm gonna let someone wishing harm on our military go.

Fran... sometimes, your nievete' leads you to say the dumbest things and THIS is definitely one of them- - I really wish you'd of thought before typing this- - even in jest, it's the kind of statement that really makes me question any respect I had for you.

Goodnight, Dark.

*Taylor*

Up to u Taylor..but me a pacifist...don wish ne harm 2 cum 2 ne human bein friend or foe... an won do owt 2 harm ne..friend or foe..no matta the provocation.. but as an institution..belongin 2 ne country..don give a sod..it can go 2 blazes an disappear up its own arsehole for all me cares...

An if its naivity...s'ok..been accused a worse..an will b gain...jus think ther betta waysa sortin out the worlds problems than killin peeps an ruinin ther lives.. wetha ya respect me or not don change that view... pacifism means beina pacifist..woteva shit happens 2 ya..it don mean beina pacifist until sumthin dus...

Idealism?? Sure..wer an wot wud me b wivout me ideals... jus happens that in time..on this at least if not on many otha things me idealistic bout..it will happen.. me won c it an nor will generations down the line..but dus believe it..an dus wot me can 2 edge towards it..includin fallin out wiv peeps me likes an luffs... well more accurately havin em fall out wiv me...

[*pan*]

my to this is, i love my contry but don't trust the government, i support the troops no matter what they are sent to do, they are americans doing their service as told to do by the government, i will never put down the military no matter what situation the government puts them in, they are soldiers doing what their told. as anyone who has ever served knows. never put down an organization for a few bad apples, thats like condemming a race for a few bad people. the military is nessary and needed to a free nation. not their fault if the government makes bad choices or decisions. i hate even the thought of war but from studying history i know there are times when it's nessisary, we owe our freedoms to the force that has beaten opression in the past which is our military. if you ever want to keep talking and saying what you want to on here, you'd better hope our military never crashes. for they are the defenders of the country and the people and our bill of rights which gives us the freedom to say what we think and feel.

[darkeyes]

my to this is, i love my contry but don't trust the government, i support the troops no matter what they are sent to do, they are americans doing their service as told to do by the government

Seem 2 memba peeps cryin that at Nuremburg round bout 1946.. support em woteva they told 2 do??? That statement needs 2 b treated wiv contempt it deserves.....

[wolfcamp]

Seem 2 memba peeps cryin that at Nuremburg round bout 1946.. support em woteva they told 2 do??? That statement needs 2 b treated wiv contempt it deserves.....

That was a dictatorship. Ours is a democracy. The Germans had no option to throw out their authoritarian leader, or to even speak against him. We do, and we will. That's the big difference.

[darkeyes]

That was a dictatorship. Ours is a democracy. The Germans had no option to throw out their authoritarian leader, or to even speak against him. We do, and we will. That's the big difference.

No excuse wetha dictatorship or democracy.. the statement still stands an still stinks... an so ya support ya military in ne excursion it makes no matta wot.. ne thin it dus no matta wot?? so long as its decided by a "democratic" government?? Jeez...me despairs of humanity..... "my country right or wrong"... wotta bloody attitude an it excuses nuthin...

[Long Duck Dong]

being ex armed forces, I have walked in the shoes of many soldiers......

when we talk about defending our country.... we are not talking about marching with pride and honor, with the calls of praise in our ears........

hell no....

we are talking about endless sleepless night, stinking clothes, bad feed, extreme stress, battle fatique, dirt, dust, mossies, jammed guns, broken down vehicles, friendly and enemy fire, hunger, thirsty, blood, wounds, pain, suffering.... hell the list goes on

we walk out the door and onto the airplane and boat.... and we become a soldier.... a nameless, faceless soldier.......

and we would like to be known by our name.....not our rank, and service or our medals......when we are over there and when we return......
we would like to have a beer in a bar and not have people call us a hero, a warrior, a respected person........

and thats how I feel about the generals and admirals and presidents and government

don't hand us ya praise and ya speechs.... or ya tv interviews......5 second visits ...etc etc

give us working gear, ample supplies and proof that we will be home by xmas.....cos we have families too and while we are giving our butts shots off......our families miss us and need us.......

so screw ya new airplanes and tanks and boats and guns and all that stuff....

we have been defending out country for you.... now give us xmas with our families

[TaylorMade]

No excuse wetha dictatorship or democracy.. the statement still stands an still stinks... an so ya support ya military in ne excursion it makes no matta wot.. ne thin it dus no matta wot?? so long as its decided by a "democratic" government?? Jeez...me despairs of humanity..... "my country right or wrong"... wotta bloody attitude an it excuses nuthin...

You're equating a dictatorship and a democracy? Live a couple years under each, then you'd know how stupid that statement sounds.

I dated a United States Marine for a good while. I didn't agree with everything his commanders ordered him to do, but I made sure to pack a box with the things he needed (magazines, lip balm, body wash, socks, etc.) so he could have a comfortable existence. . .if this is what you are speaking against, Fran, your idealism is crossing over into denying people based on their occupation.

You're inching close to making me want to say... keep quiet while the grownups have a chat, Fran. . . It's one thing to disagree, but have a coherent viewpoint, PLEASE.

*Taylor*

[slocum5]

Obviously, Pan meant that he supported our troops in what they did within the bounds of the Geneva Convention. If not so stated, I'm sure he would agree.

I wonder how many Brits would support Darkeyes in her implied contention that American troops would march innocent civilians to the gas chamber. Or in the alternative, how many Brits agree that the GI's who were sent to England to stage the Normandy invasion agree with the Brit war time slogan that the American GI in Britain at that time was "Overpaid, over sexed and over here!"

[The Barefoot Contess]

I know I am going to be grilled for this one, so let’s start by saying that I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. Also, if you are going to start your rant by saying that because I am foreign I cannot have an opinion, and that if I don’t like America I should not be here to begin with, please know that you are wasting your time. I do like America, otherwise I would not be here. I just think that liking a country does not mean you have to agree with its government’s policies.
The way I look at it is this: yes, people in the military deserve respect, but no more than any other person doing their job as law-abiding people. The mailman might not be risking his life for me every day, but his job is as important if not more than that of the military. In glorifying war “heroes” we are legitimizing and supporting the war. If the government actually gave a shit about the military, they would actually care about vets. Maybe, just maybe, we might be witnessing an attempt to intentionally but quietly discredit the army so that then people will be all about a mercenary, and of course private, army, aka Blackwater.
Second, to say that the military is protecting the interests of Americans is false. The interests they are defending with their lives are those of a few rich and powerful people who benefit from this war, and therefore the longer the war lasts, the better for them. Let’s make no mistake here: the current administration has neither the intention nor the desire to end this war, and if public opinion is strong enough that they end up having to pull out the troops, it will be only to send them somewhere else, aka Iran. Apart from the economic side of the war, which is draining the pockets of ordinary Americans to fill those of a few powerful, there is a great “benefit” to be gained from this and any war: a state of war (fear) makes it easier for people to surrender their liberties and rights (PATRIOT act…), and so, it is much easier for the government to control them.
Third, yes, people in the military do as they are told. Well, so do I in my job, until I am asked to something illegal (which in my case has never happened). The war in Iraq is illegal (remember that it was not Iraq that attacked the US?), and the treatment of war prisoners (oh, sorry, military combatants) violates the Geneva Convention. People in the military know that. So, in my eyes, saying “I do as I am told” is not an excuse. There comes a point when you need to do the right thing, and decide that you will not be responsible for the deaths of innocents that have nothing to do with the security of your country. If doing so means that you cannot be in the military, then, in my opinion, so be it. Now the problem is, of course, that the war has created such a mess in Iraq, that no “solution” (staying, withdrawing immediately) is a good one anymore.
Fourth, we should not confuse patriotism with acceptance. Criticizing the war, or the role of the army in it, is not the same as criticizing America. And being a patriot, no matter what country we are talking about, means having the guts to criticize it when it deserves it. As Henry David Thoreau put it, “dissent is the highest form of patriotism”.
Fifth, I wish no one any harm, but if you are invading a country, then don’t expect a red carpet to greet you. The reason why people in Iraq are not more supportive of the American troops is that those troops are really not attempting to promote a free democracy, but a satellite state that will bow to the wishes of the current administration. This is not the first time this has happened, just look at America’s record in Latin America.

[darkeyes]

Obviously, Pan meant that he supported our troops in what they did within the bounds of the Geneva Convention. If not so stated, I'm sure he would agree.

I wonder how many Brits would support Darkeyes in her implied contention that American troops would march innocent civilians to the gas chamber. Or in the alternative, how many Brits agree that the GI's who were sent to England to stage the Normandy invasion agree with the Brit war time slogan that the American GI in Britain at that time was "Overpaid, over sexed and over here!"

First off..me did not make that contention implied or othawise... me contention is that as a pacifist me cannot an neva shall support the military or ne miltary action. Human beins r meant 2 b intelligent...sadly 2 often they don haff fall dwn on that, but me still believes its not beyond the wit of humankind 2 resolve differences wivout havin a bloody war.

Me did make the implied contention that the military of ne country can an do act in a barbarous manner at the direction of their Governments. The military of my country is not exempt from this. I will make the contention, that the military of ne nation, under the direction of ne government will "obey orders" an carry out barbarous acts, if need be by filin peeps onta trains an an sendin em off 2 bein gassed. In theory..the government of Serbia was democratically elected government an we know wot happened ther.. so don gimme the democracy bollox ther...democray or totalitarian, the military will do jus wot its political masters wannit 2 do, an sumtimes it will not b in accord wivya beloved Geneva Convention.

The military of the UK under government direction invented concentration camps durin the Boer war and thousands of men, women and children wer starved to death because of government dictat an blind military obedience. Britain also by civilian authority gas bomb thousands of Iraqi civilians in Iraq long before Saddam was a twinkle in is dads eye. Agent Orange in Indo-China is an appallin condemnation of the US military an wos dun unda explicit authority of the US ELECTED authorities. The military of no nation, democratic or otherwise is or can be excused for any act of brutality wich occurs wetha unda instruction from government or its own hierarchy. In the end it is the civilian masters who shud hav had sufficent control over ther military 2 prevent ne barbarism bein dun in the name of the country wich they serve. Failure 2 do so makes them culpable. Ne orders wich allow barbarism wich comes from a government democratic or othawise r a scandal, an the blind obedience of the military no excuse for a plea of ther innocence.

Governments, democratic and totalitarian, hav always used the military 2 crush brutally ne opposition outside of the Geneva Convention, wich in fact has so many loopholes, deliberately 2 allow many acts of brutality 2 continue 2 b perpetrated in particular by the major military powers.

Me dus not, an neva has singled out the military of the USA for special attention..me loathin is for all things military, no matta from wence they come. On occasion me mite criticise the US military for specific acts but equally will the military of the UK... more so ere because they hav the affrontery 2 tell me its dun in my name.. France happpens 2 b me fave country on the planet outsida me own. The war crimes of France since 1945 site up 2 the present time r summat wich the French themselves repeatedly turn a blind eye 2, from Indo-China 2 Algeria an Chad, an weneva me been ova ther hav actively participated in protests about such acts. The Belgians an Dutch similarly wer they wer the colonial powers, and the armed forces of Spain have a lot 2 ansa for. All acts dun at the behest of ther respective ELECTED governments, not by ther military wivout prior knowledge of the elected authorities.

Me don give a toss bout the Geneva Convention.. it is a legal justification 2 excuse many acts wich r quite simply appallin...wot me cares bout is the rite of peeps the world ova 2 live wivout fear of war... thats wy me a pacist.. me hates ALL military.. ALL violence.. an ALL acts wich harm otha human beins or prevent them from livin in peace an gettin on wiv ther lives...

An fore ne 1 says it..yea..me loathes an detests ne act of terror wich harms ne human bein ... but can undastand the frustration wich many peeps the world ova suffa wich makes em turn 2 it as a weapon 2 achive ther end.. dus NOT agree wiv it in ne way, an loathes it as jus anotha way of stirrin shite an tryin 2 bully peeps inta submission. Jus don think by havin wars, we eitha remove the terrorists or make ne inroads inta solvin the root cause. In end that can only b done adequately by negotiation an satisfyin the desires of those who feel dispossessed or oppressed, or by eliminatin the mistrust an hatred between the militarily armed predominantly western nations an the freedom fighters/terror groups, call em wotya will, an tryin sumhow 2 eliminate the mistrust tween the peeps of the various religions involved....

An Taylor hun...wetha ya likes it or not arguin for a world wivout war, an the settlement of disputes wivout the need for conflict like GROWN UPS is perfectly coherent. Mayb not easy 2 achieve me knows that only 2 well... but so long as the peeps in nations the world ova do not believe it, it will neva b..thankfully ther r more than jus me who believes it possible an given time am sure we will achieve the elimination of armed conflict. Know that we r relatively few, but that don make us rong...

An since ya raised the prevention of occupation for the military an ya luffly marines..wot ya think is the mos inneficient us a resources for creatin employment??? Gorrit it in1..military spendin... how much betta ya think the US economy wud b if the hundreds of billionsa dollars spent on arms an the military wer spent on creatin more socially acceptable jobs.. Do accept that high military spendin don haff move on technology..but for chrissakes..look at the cost 2 humanity??? By spendin properly, an changin priorites, we cud do that an develop technologies wich wud both create jobs an help peeps a lot more than spendin on the military eva will..but ya havta hav the will to do it... ya havta believe it can b dun.. an Taylor hun..if me didn believe it me wudn say it... ya marines, ya sailors an allya otha military personnel wud b employed in an doin jobs wich benefitted mankind..not help keep it livin n fear of destruction... wetha ya like it or not that is an ideal, it is coherent, and it is GROWN UP!!!! Jus cos ya don agree wiv it don make it ne the less valid..

Aint me that aint grown up... children settle disputes by conflict an we tell em ther r betta ways...then we let em grow up an tell em "fuk wotya learned... here a gun..go kill that arab/black/russki/jew/proddie/ woteva cross the ocean...". If thats grown up me will gladly stay a child.....

[darkeyes]

Contessa babes.. ya jus a lil smartie knickers an me luffs ya!!

[TaylorMade]

An Taylor hun...wetha ya likes it or not arguin for a world wivout war, an the settlement of disputes wivout the need for conflict like GROWN UPS is perfectly coherent. Mayb not easy 2 achieve me knows that only 2 well... but so long as the peeps in nations the world ova do not believe it, it will neva b..thankfully ther r more than jus me who believes it possible an given time am sure we will achieve the elimination of armed conflict. Know that we r relatively few, but that don make us rong...

An since ya raised the prevention of occupation for the military an ya luffly marines..wot ya think is the mos inneficient us a resources for creatin employment??? Gorrit it in1..military spendin... how much betta ya think the US economy wud b if the hundreds of billionsa dollars spent on arms an the military wer spent on creatin more socially acceptable jobs.. Do accept that high military spendin don haff move on technology..but for chrissakes..look at the cost 2 humanity??? By spendin properly, an changin priorites, we cud do that an develop technologies wich wud both create jobs an help peeps a lot more than spendin on the military eva will..but ya havta hav the will to do it... ya havta believe it can b dun.. an Taylor hun..if me didn believe it me wudn say it... ya marines, ya sailors an allya otha military personnel wud b employed in an doin jobs wich benefitted mankind..not help keep it livin n fear of destruction... wetha ya like it or not that is an ideal, it is coherent, and it is GROWN UP!!!! Jus cos ya don agree wiv it don make it ne the less valid..

Aint me that aint grown up... children settle disputes by conflict an we tell em ther r betta ways...then we let em grow up an tell em "fuk wotya learned... here a gun..go kill that arab/black/russki/jew/proddie/ woteva cross the ocean...". If thats grown up me will gladly stay a child.....

Like I said, Darkeyes... the little you know about the world becomes apparent the more you talk about it.

Goodnight.

*Taylor*

[wolfcamp]

I think war is in our genes. It goes back beyond the split from our last common ancestor, more than 6 million years. It's a survival technique for communities, and it protects our territory and resources from competing communities. So, I don't think there is a way to get away from it. It's natural selection on a community level.

So, with that said, I think the US military is one of our country's greatest strengths. They are disciplined and do exactly as they are commanded. If a military did as they wished, or as they thought they should, then we would have a situation like they have in Pakistan or Darfur. Look at the military of Iraq which has no loyalty and is split into warring factions. Each division acts according to it's alignment with it's faith of choice. Each soldier chooses his loyalty based on his own sense of ethics and values. This does nobody any good, and that country is basically in chaos. Nobody wants the US military going around doing whatever it wants, or whatever it "thinks it should".

As I said before, it's the civilian leaders that command the military, and it's those leaders who should be held accountable. Don't blame the military, blame the leaders. We have the option to change leaders if we don't like the way they are running things. I don't see a better system out there.

[azirish]

Fat chance.. but we can but hope.....

You live in the UK and can can't even see the Islamist attempting to taking over the UK? Do you know what they do to Lesbians under Sharia Law? I will never not respond to anyone taking shots at our (US) of the armed services of any country. They are much braver men and women then me (I'm very willing to admit that), they are the only thing stopping you from a bruqa or a public hanging. You ignorant stupid fool. Don't count on the military you so dislike from stopping the constant tream of militants more than willing to seperate you're head from you're neck. One more thing..learn to use spell check at least before typing something soo stupid.

Sorry to vent, this only applies to this poster.

[azirish]

my to this is, i love my contry but don't trust the government, i support the troops no matter what they are sent to do, they are americans doing their service as told to do by the government, i will never put down the military no matter what situation the government puts them in, they are soldiers doing what their told. as anyone who has ever served knows. never put down an organization for a few bad apples, thats like condemming a race for a few bad people. the military is nessary and needed to a free nation. not their fault if the government makes bad choices or decisions. i hate even the thought of war but from studying history i know there are times when it's nessisary, we owe our freedoms to the force that has beaten opression in the past which is our military. if you ever want to keep talking and saying what you want to on here, you'd better hope our military never crashes. for they are the defenders of the country and the people and our bill of rights which gives us the freedom to say what we think and feel.

How can you suport the troops but not the mission? Thats like not supporting the message but I supporting the messenger(s). (Can you eat but not swallow?)If you don't support the mission you don't support our troops.

[FalconAngel]

Barefoot, darling, you have one flaw with the first part of your point.

While the job of mailman is very important, comparing them to what a soldier has to do is doing an extreme injustice to what a soldier is trained to do.

The job of soldier consists of going out into areas where few others would go.

The job of soldier has a probability of dieing (anywhere from 20% to 90%).

Realistically speaking, a postal employee is not likely to go to work and have to worry about the 75% likelihood of running into an IED or sniper or ambush.
A soldier at war, doing his/her job does.

We have our freedom of speech, not because of the speech writer, but because of the soldier.

Soldiers have always been the ones to give all or some in defense of freedom for the free world.

Every free nation is free because soldiers are on guard to protect that freedom and irregardless of the rightness or wrongness of this idiotic war in Iraq, the job of Soldier is to protect free people.

The job of Soldier encompasses not just the soldier and Marine, it includes Sailors and Airmen who keep the seas and skies safe.

The job of postal employee is to safeguard the day's mail for the area they work, it does not compare to safeguarding a nation.

And, as I said before, the job of mail carrier is important, but it does not compare to the job of Soldier either in risk or in responsibility.

For those that still do not quite understand, here's something to make things clearer.


The embers glowed softly, and in their dim light,

I gazed round the room and I cherished the sight.

My wife was asleep, her head on my chest,

My daughter beside me, angelic in rest.

Outside the snow fell, a blanket of white,

Transforming the yard to a winter delight.

The sparkling lights in the tree I believe,

Completed the magic that was Christmas Eve.

My eyelids were heavy, my breathing was deep,

Secure and surrounded by love I would sleep.

In perfect contentment, or so it would seem,

So I slumbered, perhaps I started to dream.


The sound wasn't loud, and it wasn't too near,

But I opened my eyes when it tickled my ear.

Perhaps just a cough, I didn't quite know, Then the

sure sound of footsteps outside in the snow.

My soul gave a tremble, I struggled to hear,

And I crept to the door just to see who was near.

Standing out in the cold and the dark of the night,

A lone figure stood, his face weary and tight.


A soldier, I puzzled, some twenty years old,

Perhaps a Marine, huddled here in the cold.

Alone in the dark, he looked up and smiled,

Standing watch over me, and my wife and my child.

"What are you doing?"I asked without fear,

"Come in this moment, it's freezing out here!

Put down your pack, brush the snow from your sleeve,

You should be at home on a cold Christmas Eve!"

For barely a moment I saw his eyes shift,

Away from the cold and the snow blown in drifts..

To the window that danced with a warm fire's light

Then he sighed and he said "Its really all right,

I'm out here by choice. I'm here every night."

"It's my duty to stand at the front of the line,

That separates you from the darkest of times.

No one had to ask or beg or implore me,

I'm proud to stand here like my fathers before me.

My Gramps died at 'Pearl on a day in December,"

Then he sighed, "That's a Christmas 'Gram always remembers."

My dad stood his watch in the jungles of 'Nam',

And now it is my turn and so, here I am.

I've not seen my own son in more than a while,

But my wife sends me pictures, he's sure got her smile.

Then he bent and he carefully pulled from his bag,

The red, white, and blue... an American flag.

I can live through the cold and the being alone,

Away from my family, my house and my home.

I can stand at my post through the rain and the sleet,

I can sleep in a foxhole with little to eat.

I can carry the weight of killing another,

Or lay down my life with my sister and brother..

Who stand at the front against any and all,

To ensure for all time that this flag will not fall."

"So go back inside," he said, "harbor no fright,

Your family is waiting and I'll be all right."

"But isn't there something I can do, at the least,

"Give you money," I asked, "or prepare you a feast?

It seems all too little for all that you've done,

For being away from your wife and your son."

Then his eye welled a tear that held no regret,

"Just tell us you love us, and never forget.

To fight for our rights back at home while we're gone,

To stand your own watch, no matter how long.

For when we come home, either standing or dead,

To know you remember we fought and we bled.

Is payment enough, and with that we will trust,

That we mattered to you as you mattered to us."


"We, and all others who believe in freedom as deeply as we do, would rather die on our feet than live on our knees." -- Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility--I welcome it." -- John Fitzgerald Kennedy

[liquidcandycain]

woooooow
after reading darkeyes and barefoot's reply's lol im not shure if that job at piggly wiggly looks all that bad lmao hell im setting here still im uniform and to be specific when we "uphold a war hero" its normally done for what he did to save his fellow comrads ass's henc most moh holders arent alive but anywho
several of ya have very argumentive but valid points to be honest i dot have a issue whit definding some assholes right to call me a babykiller and yet fuck 6 crack heads in one night and wonder why they got knocked up yet to still get a abortion and tag it on the curtail of its a womans choice thats unfortionalty thats one of the things i get paid for were not all bad as the people who exsperianced katrina found out

but moreover there is an issue in the ranks as we get ready to head over to afgani we are having a very very serious issue with having enough people to get the job done and the new guys that are here are about as trustworth and dependable and a free tax return from the gov drugs rape sposeabouse crime in general is rampant in the military and due to the shortage we cant "weedout" the one we dont want ive been here for 9 years and after all the time in forgine lands time spent in the field countless failed relationships loss of friends and family not to mention scocial life i dunno why i still do it epessially as i come up on my indefinate retention date meaning i will be forced to stay in untile i retire there is a issue with the military part on the soldiers and part on the gov hell everyone hates us we stick our noses where allot of times it dont belong but theres 2 sides to every coin we have build countless schools pipelines hospitals ect to nations that didnt have such before iraq seems to be the huge issue been there done that left friends there to not return what did the people ask for when the towers fell revenge kill them kill them all and (not defending bush but put yourself in his shoes) what did we get just what was asked at the price of ours sons and daughters now the heat has cooled and a situation has been made and were left holding the bag do i want to go to afghan fuck no iraq only for the cheap gold but im told to go so we go

to the point the military is heading to a breaking point sooner than most think vacant ranks piss poor pay fucked up supply system way to much beauricratic bs and tired weary soldiers divorces are up and so is suicide just get on the net and look up 101st statistics but we will trudge on and when the smoke settles we will get back on the plaine come home and in 10 months do it all over again the train is running out of steam i see it the upper ranks see it and apparently the gov sees it but we are all exsendable and will be replaced as needed or if we do pull out there will be a huge over staffing and people like me will be forced out to cut the numbers and that will just lead to more and more riasing unemployment numbers injured vets ect we have seen it before and will see it again

i do thank everyone who voices there opinion good and bad thats why we have free speach thank you for all who have supported us

no one loves a soldier till the enemy is at the front gate

[The Barefoot Contess]

Every free nation is free because soldiers are on guard to protect that freedom and irregardless of the rightness or wrongness of this idiotic war in Iraq, the job of Soldier is to protect free people.

Agreed. But I think we need to ask ourselves whether or not this was was necessary / legitimate. I mean, Iraq did not attack the US. What are protecting ourselves from, then, if we were not attacked?

[liquidcandycain]

true very true i honestly belive that had something to do with a family debt and was validated byt the war on terrisum (woow i need to get a spellcheck) hey i didnt say i agreed just do whay im told lol

[FalconAngel]

Agreed. But I think we need to ask ourselves whether or not this was was necessary / legitimate. I mean, Iraq did not attack the US. What are protecting ourselves from, then, if we were not attacked?

I do not think that the war in Iraq was legitimate.

Warmongers jumped on the bandwagon of the "war on terror", so when emperor Bush said that Iraq had WMD's, which many knew to be false, but they were gullible because all the words were right and we were still on the ravenous thirst for revenge against terrorists and those who support them.

Now we are embroiled in a civil war. Sounds a lot like Vietnam to me.

But not one of those cowardly politicians were screaming for action when the Red Army Faction blew up that club in Berlin in the early 80's. Where were they then? Where were they when the explosion over Locherbie happened and all of those innocent people were killed?

Getting high, raking in profits at their law firms or making sure that they could get reelected in the next election.
Good men and women died; Americans died from terrorism. But no one lifted a finger since it happened in a foreign land. Not even the American people did anything. After all, it was "just military personnel and their families" that died.

They didn't care that it was Americans that died.

They had their pensions and golden parachutes to worry about.

But I digress. The point is that when we should have taken action, we didn't and instead we waited and took the wrong action because we let our politicians run us instead of us running the politicians.

They listen to the self-proclaimed experts that will tell them what they want to hear rather than what the need to hear. And they make sure that they make the decision which is better for them rather than what is best for the country.

[DiamondDog]

I think war is in our genes. It goes back beyond the split from our last common ancestor, more than 6 million years. It's a survival technique for communities, and it protects our territory and resources from competing communities. So, I don't think there is a way to get away from it. It's natural selection on a community level.

Very well said.

War/combat/etc. has always and will always be around, and it's part of the human existence since day one, and will continue to be part of it long into the future.

It has always been around, so it's not very sane to believe otherwise.

In the long run such a stance about pacifism will mean evolutionary failure.

Pacifism has only been created in the last few centuries and the idea of being "anti-war" is like being "anti-weather" when it all comes down to it.

I believe one can be against CERTAIN wars, as a legitimate political tactic, but that's not the same by a long shot.

I find that the antiwar left is amazingly good at being pro-war when it suits them.

[wolfcamp]

You ignorant stupid fool.

....

One more thing..learn to use spell check at least before typing something soo stupid.

Sorry to vent, this only applies to this poster.

Hey, c'mon man. Everyone's entitled to an opinion. We don't need to resort to name calling.

[TaylorMade]

Very well said.

War/combat/etc. has always and will always be around, and it's part of the human existence since day one, and will continue to be part of it long into the future.

It has always been around, so it's not very sane to believe otherwise.

In the long run such a stance about pacifism will mean evolutionary failure.

Pacifism has only been created in the last few centuries and the idea of being "anti-war" is like being "anti-weather" when it all comes down to it.

I believe one can be against CERTAIN wars, as a legitimate political tactic, but that's not the same by a long shot.

I find that the antiwar left is amazingly good at being pro-war when it suits them.

You know I don't always agree with you, DD. . .but that's exactly what I was trying to say but couldn't quite articulate.

*Taylor*

[wanderingrichard]

i actually served thru that and past it, continuing on thru the reconstruction in the 80's and ending post desert storm.. it wasn't a pretty sight, not a good time had by all i can assure you. we were short money, clothing, guns, tires, nuts bolts, paper, light bulbs, you name it. we had race riots on Fiori Kaserne in Aschaffenburg. assaults on senior enlisted by gangs of drug crazed, or drunken or just plain criminal lower enlisted... the list was endless, and it was a reflection of just how broken and hollow not only the military but our nation and society as a whole were.

reading this article, it hit me that it rings so true again.. had been thinking much the same the past few days as i watch the troops at fort lewis washington come back from iraq again.. many have been there , done that at least twice. some as many as three times.

see, i work hand in hand with these kids every day. sure , i get paid by a contractor to do what i do, hand the soldiers the best piece of equipment our tax dollars can possibly buy, but, they are the reason i do this, not loyalty to my employer[ gosh,what a pair of novel ideas; loyalty to an employer and a career of altruism. how did we as a nation ever lose those ideals??]

looking at the wrecks of gear that these guys bring back [ i include both men and women in the term "guys"] some of it barely functioning, makes me angry some times. angry because i know they might could have fixed this thing themselves in theatre if someone had been able to get them a certain widget sooner, and also angry because i know for a fact that some of this sorry state of repair is just plain ass neglect.

then, too, i have to remind myself that i let things slip during my time in the nefud and southern iraqi deserts too because i had so much basic soldiering and small unit leadership tasks to do that i just didn't have the time to spend working on my rolling stock other than to make sure it was GTO'd [ gas, tires and oiled!] about once a week. see, when people are all around you shooting at you, you have to pull out all the stops.. the cooks, clerks mechanics, everyone picks up and goes into the fight. everyone pulls guard duty , sometimes double shifts and then goes and does their own job, to insure the safety of those americans [ canadians, indians, spainards, etc...] around them. everyone picks up the pieces of the broken duty rosters, because the guys who are supposed to be doing this stuff, they are out in the middle of some town they probably cant' even spell, doing their real mission.

the smarter ones, ?? the ones who see the light at the end of the tunnel and know it might not be what they thought it was when they raised their hands?? they get out.. go on to become leaders in industry, medicine, bankers, lawyers, the postman, etc.. they put it behind them best they can and move on with their lives. it's always the same, no matter if we're talking the roman empire, the end of WW I , WW II, Vietnam, or even now.. so this " brain drain" this loss of junior leadership, the institutional fear that there will be no one there to hand over the flag to at the end of an old timers turn at the wheel, it's all been done before and will be done again until mankind figures out a way to stop wars completely.

sorry to have prattled.. basically, it's all been done before. the hard earned lessons from many previous trips down this rocky road are still there for those who are willing to step aside from the norms of the day and actually look for them, draw on them and put them into action.... hey! there's another old ideal that we need to pick back up.. actually doing something to fix this instead of sitting on the sidelines being political guttersnipes...
Rich